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Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?"

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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#81 » by Topofthekey » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:41 pm

Tom White wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:If we can somehow consolidate Lamb + Doug + Justin + Leaf and maybe a few 2nds for him, our second unit would be instantly a lot more formidable



I don't intend to insult you, I really don't, so please take this with that in mind. That being said, I can't believe you would be willing to part with four players, three of which are important to this team, for a guy having a bit of a down season which may wind up being more the norm for him than not. What you propose would instantly destroy our depth and the chemistry this team is developing. I honestly don't know what to say about some of these trade proposals.

Maybe the old saying is true that the grass always seems greener on the other side of the fence.

No worries, zero offense taken

And I actually do agree with you, especially on the chemistry part

This current Pacer team is the one that I enjoyed watching the most since Larry Bird was the coach, so I am quite reluctant to break up the team as well - I'm perfectly happy to see the team stay together and make a run next season

Having said that, it's obvious that the team does have too many deserving players and not enough minutes

Unless the team is constantly hit by injuries, which is a dumb and terrible thing to wish for, someone will invariably get relegated to bench warmer status

Would that be Goga? Or Aaron, or Justin?

Besides, the team can use a good stretch 4, and Markkanen seems like an OK guy too, no off court issues or attitude problem as far as I can tell (which admittedly isn't saying much since my only source is the internet), so he should probably be able to fit right in?

Also, he is young enough that he has enough time to turn things around; if the reclamation project is successful and he turns into a Toni Kukoc type of 6th man for the Pacers, that would give the team a huge, huge boost
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#82 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:05 pm

I think Chicago would likely demand a top 10 pick, or multiple 1sts for Markkanen at this point. Maybe even eating a bad contract as filler. Or maybe both Goga and Aaron Holiday for Lauri. They’re certainly not at a point they’d take vet role players and 2nd round picks for him, I’m sure. They’d likely value him as a Porzingis lite in terms of what they’d ask for in a deal.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#83 » by Topofthekey » Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:51 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:I think Chicago would likely demand a top 10 pick, or multiple 1sts for Markkanen at this point. Maybe even eating a bad contract as filler. Or maybe both Goga and Aaron Holiday for Lauri. They’re certainly not at a point they’d take vet role players and 2nd round picks for him, I’m sure. They’d likely value him as a Porzingis lite in terms of what they’d ask for in a deal.

Might be do-able, depending on what's their definition of lite

If we can flip Doug and Lamb for Markkanen, the second unit looks much more balanced, and potent too

Goga
Markkanen
Justin
Aaron
TJM

Jakarr Sampson and Sumner as the emergency third stringers, everyone has a role, everyone get their minutes
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#84 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:51 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:I think Chicago would likely demand a top 10 pick, or multiple 1sts for Markkanen at this point. Maybe even eating a bad contract as filler. Or maybe both Goga and Aaron Holiday for Lauri. They’re certainly not at a point they’d take vet role players and 2nd round picks for him, I’m sure. They’d likely value him as a Porzingis lite in terms of what they’d ask for in a deal.

Might be do-able, depending on what's their definition of lite

If we can flip Doug and Lamb for Markkanen, the second unit looks much more balanced, and potent too

Goga
Markkanen
Justin
Aaron
TJM

Jakarr Sampson and Sumner as the emergency third stringers, everyone has a role, everyone get their minutes


Doug and Lamb isn’t a package that is Porzongis lite. Consider any offer for a Markkanen to require at least Aaron and a future 1st. Maybe also Goga.

Keep in mind that Lamb will likely not have much trade value, if at all, on the open market. He’s paid fairly and he’s a usable vet, but his day’s of “potential” are over. He’ll have to fit in the right spot, and he’s somewhat replaceable. Everyone kind of has vets they like as much as Lamb. Consider him a useful and affordable filler contract in a trade that may not be viewed as negative value. But neither he nor Doug can net a former top 10 pick who’s current team still values them as such . Most teams would view that kind of offer as quite “one sided” or “homerific”.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#85 » by pacers33granger » Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:39 pm

I don't think Lauri should be a target. Besides what Scoot pointed out about his value to Chicago, he just hasn't been that impressive imo. I think he is one of those fringe all star types, which is not what we need. He's also not any better defending 4s than Domas really and would be standing around the perimeter like Turner on offense.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#86 » by Vorda » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:01 am

We should try to bring back Thad...Chicago dont need him... and he will be perfect for our team... he would fill this roster... we can give two 2nd round picks +Leaf for him
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#87 » by boomershadow » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:49 am

Vorda wrote:We should try to bring back Thad...Chicago dont need him... and he will be perfect for our team... he would fill this roster... we can give two 2nd round picks +Leaf for him
Thad makes almost 13m a year. The Pacers at minimum would have to do either Jeremy Lamb or McDermott/JHoliday.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#88 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:34 pm

Vorda wrote:We should try to bring back Thad...Chicago dont need him... and he will be perfect for our team... he would fill this roster... we can give two 2nd round picks +Leaf for him



That’s not a legal trade due to salary matching. We also just decided this past offseason that, due to his age, we didn’t even offer him a contract since we were elevating Sabonis to play with Myles, and we didn’t want to offer him a multi year deal due to his age. Thad may help this year, but do we want to keep paying him 2 years from now?
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#89 » by Vorda » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:41 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:We should try to bring back Thad...Chicago dont need him... and he will be perfect for our team... he would fill this roster... we can give two 2nd round picks +Leaf for him



That’s not a legal trade due to salary matching. We also just decided this past offseason that, due to his age, we didn’t even offer him a contract since we were elevating Sabonis to play with Myles, and we didn’t want to offer him a multi year deal due to his age. Thad may help this year, but do we want to keep paying him 2 years from now?


Ok, we can put one more player to trade... we miss back up big so Thad would be great as a bench player... he will be good for next 2 years...

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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about 

Post#90 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:14 pm

Vorda wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:We should try to bring back Thad...Chicago dont need him... and he will be perfect for our team... he would fill this roster... we can give two 2nd round picks +Leaf for him



That’s not a legal trade due to salary matching. We also just decided this past offseason that, due to his age, we didn’t even offer him a contract since we were elevating Sabonis to play with Myles, and we didn’t want to offer him a multi year deal due to his age. Thad may help this year, but do we want to keep paying him 2 years from now?


Ok, we can put one more player to trade... we miss back up big so Thad would be great as a bench player... he will be good for next 2 years...

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We might think so, but Pritchard already made it clear that he didn’t think so by not offering g him a contract just this past summer.

Ultimately, I do agree that Thad could be helpful, but only situationally. I don’t think we can in anyway play him and Dom at the same time in the playoffs; the spacing just suffers too much, as we’ve seen the last two playoffs.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about 

Post#91 » by Wizop » Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:38 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:I don’t think we can in anyway play him and Dom at the same time in the playoffs; the spacing just suffers too much, as we’ve seen the last two playoffs.


the second unit frontcourt of Dom, McBuckets, and JustHolla7 plays very well together. this is particularly true when McConnell sets the pace. now there is a choice to be made at shooting guard when Vic is starting but we have Lamb, Aaron, and Sumner available and all have different strengths. I'm in no rush to trade any of these guys.

besides is there another team with two bigs in the second unit front court that we need to match up better with? Philly has Embiid and Horford but that's the first unit where we have Myles and Dom. Milwaukee has Giannis but no one in the league guards him well so I'm not going to lose sleep trying to figure out a trade to stop him.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about 

Post#92 » by Vorda » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:21 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:

That’s not a legal trade due to salary matching. We also just decided this past offseason that, due to his age, we didn’t even offer him a contract since we were elevating Sabonis to play with Myles, and we didn’t want to offer him a multi year deal due to his age. Thad may help this year, but do we want to keep paying him 2 years from now?


Ok, we can put one more player to trade... we miss back up big so Thad would be great as a bench player... he will be good for next 2 years...

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We might think so, but Pritchard already made it clear that he didn’t think so by not offering g him a contract just this past summer.

Ultimately, I do agree that Thad could be helpful, but only situationally. I don’t think we can in anyway play him and Dom at the same time in the playoffs; the spacing just suffers too much, as we’ve seen the last two playoffs.
Thad is good glue guy, and we dont have any back up bigs... Doug plays at PF, and it doesnt work against bigger players...
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about 

Post#93 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:46 pm

Vorda wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:
Ok, we can put one more player to trade... we miss back up big so Thad would be great as a bench player... he will be good for next 2 years...

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We might think so, but Pritchard already made it clear that he didn’t think so by not offering g him a contract just this past summer.

Ultimately, I do agree that Thad could be helpful, but only situationally. I don’t think we can in anyway play him and Dom at the same time in the playoffs; the spacing just suffers too much, as we’ve seen the last two playoffs.
Thad is good glue guy, and we dont have any back up bigs... Doug plays at PF, and it doesnt work against bigger players...


Justin plays the 4 on average, but most teams don’t play 2 bigs at all, let alone off the bench. Our staggered rotations with having one of Dom or Myles on the court at all times have us pretty well covered. In most cases, Doug and Justin are both guarding other SG’s or SF’s. Rarely do they have to guard a much bigger 4. I think the situations we would need for Thad are just so infinitely rare that it wouldn’t make sense.

And again, Pritchard and Nate just decided this summer that having Thad and the additional pure big that he is wasn’t a goal of ours. I don’t know that they’d change their mind so drastically, and so soon, when we have yet to see a real need at all that could influence them to change their mind.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about 

Post#94 » by Topofthekey » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:05 pm

Wizop wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:I don’t think we can in anyway play him and Dom at the same time in the playoffs; the spacing just suffers too much, as we’ve seen the last two playoffs.


the second unit frontcourt of Dom, McBuckets, and JustHolla7 plays very well together. this is particularly true when McConnell sets the pace. now there is a choice to be made at shooting guard when Vic is starting but we have Lamb, Aaron, and Sumner available and all have different strengths. I'm in no rush to trade any of these guys.

besides is there another team with two bigs in the second unit front court that we need to match up better with? Philly has Embiid and Horford but that's the first unit where we have Myles and Dom. Milwaukee has Giannis but no one in the league guards him well so I'm not going to lose sleep trying to figure out a trade to stop him.

Speaking of which

As one of the few teams playing two quality centers at the same time, I'd imagine that Myles should benefit a lot from the mismatches on offense

For example, although I didn't watch the game against the Jazz, from the highlights it looked like Gobert primarily defended Domas, and Bogie was the one defending Myles

I kept wondering why Myles couldn't just shoot over Bogie

Being defended by a 6-7 guy, it felt like Myles should have feasted and scored 30 points or something
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about "Fit?" 

Post#95 » by Vorda » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:15 pm

I would take him... what if Myles or Domas being injured?

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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about 

Post#96 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:03 pm

Vorda wrote:I would take him... what if Myles or Domas being injured?

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If it’s Dom, it could make sense this year, but be an anchor on the cap the next two. If it’s Myles, well, it’s be an anchor for this year and 2 more.

To me, Dom is so good because he operates throughout the lane and the middle of the court. As we saw in the playoffs last year, teams learned to sag off Thad since he couldn’t shoot and just pack the lane, which rendered Dom essentially useless. The same thing would simply happen all season long now, so I just see no way we could effectively play Thad and Dom together on the court. So, Thad could only play the 18 minutes or less that Dom is on the bench, max.

I could see a need for a vet big at that point, but I don’t think that locking in Thads multi year deal is the answer. More than likely, we platoon Jakarr, Leaf and Goga in some way. And we play Justin Holiday and TJ Warren at the 4 more. With Oladipo coming back, it would allow us to keep all the other guys on the court with them losing minutes on the wings.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about 

Post#97 » by Wizop » Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:06 pm

Vorda wrote:I would take him... what if Myles or Domas being injured?


if that happens the problem is at center and Thad doesn't help. if it happens in the regular season, Goga will get minutes and Leaf could surprise as he has shown an ability to play center. if it happens in the playoffs, we're dead and no trade is likely to make a difference. which is not to say that Sampson is guaranteed to stay on the roster if someone becomes available at a bargain after buy-outs start.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about 

Post#98 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:19 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Wizop wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:I don’t think we can in anyway play him and Dom at the same time in the playoffs; the spacing just suffers too much, as we’ve seen the last two playoffs.


the second unit frontcourt of Dom, McBuckets, and JustHolla7 plays very well together. this is particularly true when McConnell sets the pace. now there is a choice to be made at shooting guard when Vic is starting but we have Lamb, Aaron, and Sumner available and all have different strengths. I'm in no rush to trade any of these guys.

besides is there another team with two bigs in the second unit front court that we need to match up better with? Philly has Embiid and Horford but that's the first unit where we have Myles and Dom. Milwaukee has Giannis but no one in the league guards him well so I'm not going to lose sleep trying to figure out a trade to stop him.

Speaking of which

As one of the few teams playing two quality centers at the same time, I'd imagine that Myles should benefit a lot from the mismatches on offense

For example, although I didn't watch the game against the Jazz, from the highlights it looked like Gobert primarily defended Domas, and Bogie was the one defending Myles

I kept wondering why Myles couldn't just shoot over Bogie

Being defended by a 6-7 guy, it felt like Myles should have feasted and scored 30 points or something


As we've seen, Myles both expends a lot of his energy on the defensive end and he's still learning how to "defer" or "alter his game" in a way that allows both he and Dom to maximally succeed. Sometimes, it works great, as it did last night in Phoenix where Myles was attacking mismatches, and sometimes it causes him to stay back and just hover deep. With more time, he'll get better at the back and forth of he and Dom, but it's still got it's growing pains.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about 

Post#99 » by Wizop » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:36 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:Sometimes, it works great, as it did last night in Phoenix where Myles was attacking mismatches, and sometimes it causes him to stay back and just hover deep. With more time, he'll get better at the back and forth of he and Dom, but it's still got it's growing pains.


at first, he was playing the same way regardless of whether Dom was in the game. he has since started to play more inside when Dom is resting. I agree that he'll get better still as the year goes on.
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Re: Why do we keep hearing this BS about 

Post#100 » by Topofthekey » Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:33 pm

Wizop wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:Sometimes, it works great, as it did last night in Phoenix where Myles was attacking mismatches, and sometimes it causes him to stay back and just hover deep. With more time, he'll get better at the back and forth of he and Dom, but it's still got it's growing pains.


at first, he was playing the same way regardless of whether Dom was in the game. he has since started to play more inside when Dom is resting. I agree that he'll get better still as the year goes on.

This is pretty much on point

I think one of the main reason why Myles hasn't "broken out" like some fans hoped he would is simple due to how much change he has had to adapt to

First we told him he was the starting PF, then we said nevermind actually he's the starting C

Then post PG trade we said it's going to be his team, but then not really turns out it's Vic's team

Then his teammates called him soft and we all wanted him to dominate in the post, but now we're telling him to embrace his 3pt shot

And now he's learning to play next to Domas

His role is constantly changing, and I can see how that makes it difficult for a young player to adjust

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