Shams: Oladipo to return January 29!

[Pacersike]

Who do you think moves out of the rotation when Oladipo gets back to playing regular minutes. I assume Lamb goes to the bench, so one of the bench guys gets his minutes reduced. J Holiday? McConnell? McDermott?

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

Goga

My guess is that Sumner then will only play if McDermott hits nothing or the team is too far behind.

Justin and TJ McC IMO have earned their spots in the rotation even when the General also comes back.

Brogdon/Oladipo/Warren/Turner/Sabonis 9/Aa/Lamb/Holiday

Too small of a team when I think about it, but these players are the best 9 players to me. Try to trade for a smallball 4 at the deadline

[Jake0890]

I get it, but no one tried diagnosing him, just talking through their “fears” and “hopes”. I mean, we’re not coaches, and we don’t see practices, but we ALL LOVE to talk on this forum as if we were. Kind of the point, right?

Well I should be a coach. Just haven't gotten the chance yet!

You should. And Scoot too. And a couple of others too.

Pacers have one of the smallest coaching teams in the league. 4 more assistant coaches and we are tied with the Raptors, one of the bigger coaching teams. It doesn't make much of a difference but any tiny difference is big enough not to stay so much behind others.

Lakers 6, Bucks 7, Raptors 7, Clippers 8 assistant coaches and those were the first 4 I searched. Pacers only 3 assistant coaches.

I think the Pacers just have a small management team in general. I got the opportunity to speak with the head of analytics for the Pacers and another person who was an intern in the program. IIRC, they just hired their 3rd analyst and heavily rely on interns to carry a lot of the load because they don't have the manpower at the permanent, full-time level. We're definitely behind the curve compared to the rest of the NBA in that department as well.

[Wizop]

Warren, JHoliday, and Jakarr can all play small ball 4.

I think Sumner will continue to play when his defense is needed.

Sent from my phone.

[Vorda]

When Dipo and Brogdon return, Doug will be moved at PF in small ball rotation, and I think Sumner will lose his minutes...

[Wizop]

When Dipo and Brogdon return, Doug will be moved at PF in small ball rotation, and I think Sumner will lose his minutes...

JHoliday has done a good job at small ball PF and now that Sampson is back he's also an option. I think Doug is still the second unit SF with Lamb becoming the second unit SG. where Aaron and Sumner fit is a puzzle.

[Topofthekey]

Well, with around 13 players all deserving minutes, finding a role for everyone is indeed a tough puzzle to crack

Myles
Domas
Warren
Vic
Brogdon

When healthy that will be the starting five, no questions about it

Justin
Doug
Lamb
Aaron
TJM

Those five have earned their spots, again no questions about that

So that's already ten players

Yet we still have Goga, Leaf, and Sumner who all could use the playing time in order to develop; not forgetting that Sampson and Mitrou-Long are also capable of giving quality emergency minutes

Sampson we've already talked about here in this thread, Mitrou-Long I like what I saw when he was called up a while back; he didn't look lost or timid, and neither was he trying too hard or forcing things, he sort of just slipped in seamlessly and provided the team with what they needed

So including Sampson and Mitrou-Long, that's 15 players who all are capable of some sort of role on an NBA team

If we're talking strictly from a logical standpoint, the obvious thing to do would be to package two or three players for one better player overall

But consolidation trades aren't easy to come by, and more importantly, the chemistry and culture of the team is just such a beautiful thing right now, and a trade might actually disrupt that and be counter productive instead


Edit: I'm beginning the revisit the idea of AG on the Pacers

He's capable of defending both forward spots, and I think that's one of the thing that the team lacks right now, the ability to defend one of those elite forwards - on a defensive minded team like the Pacers, I can see AG developing into the kind of player who can at least slow down the Giannises and the LeBrons of the league

TJ Warren is having a decent season so far, and he'll probably have a nett positive trade value by the end of the season, and the Magic look like they are willing to trade AG

A trade of Warren + Lamb for AG, if the Magic would take it, would improve the team by quite a bit I think

[Scoot McGroot]

If you’re trading for Gordon to play SF, and if you’re dealing Warren and Lamb, you’ll need him to okay on the wing, you’re going to be very disappointed. Offensively, any advantage he has requires him to be played as a small ball 5. He essentially brings athletic dunks and put backs, but not much else there. Put an athletic 3 or 4 on him and he’s pretty neutralized. Defensively, sure he can body up a lot of 3’s and 4’s. At the least, he should absolutely play the 4 or 5. At the 3, he’s kind of a failure. There certainly is an argument to be had if he’s an overall good player or not, though. If anything, he should be considered “not bad filler” in any potential trade. If you trade 2 of your best wings for him, you’re going to lose a lot on the court, though.

[Wizop]

Justin
Doug
Lamb
Aaron
TJM

Those five have earned their spots, again no questions about that

So that's already ten players

but not a proper rotation because you don't have a center in your second 5. Goga probably isn't the answer yet and McMillan prefers a 9 man rotation anyway, so the centers are Turner and Sabonis playing together on the first unit and separately on the second. so while I understand what you mean when you say there are no questions about the second five earning their spots, I see a big question of who does not have a spot when everyone is healthy.

[Tom White]

A trade of Warren + Lamb for AG, if the Magic would take it, would improve the team by quite a bit I think

I disagree. I have come to appreciate what both Warren and Lamb bring to this team and think they are better for the team than Gordon could ever be. I also don't think it is a good idea to be making trades before even seeing this team whole and healthy.

[Topofthekey]

If you’re trading for Gordon to play SF, and if you’re dealing Warren and Lamb, you’ll need him to okay on the wing, you’re going to be very disappointed. Offensively, any advantage he has requires him to be played as a small ball 5. He essentially brings athletic dunks and put backs, but not much else there. Put an athletic 3 or 4 on him and he’s pretty neutralized. Defensively, sure he can body up a lot of 3’s and 4’s. At the least, he should absolutely play the 4 or 5. At the 3, he’s kind of a failure. There certainly is an argument to be had if he’s an overall good player or not, though. If anything, he should be considered “not bad filler” in any potential trade. If you trade 2 of your best wings for him, you’re going to lose a lot on the court, though.

Yes, I see all the concerns you mentioned, as well

The thing with AG is, the main reason that's he's been seen as a disappointment so far by some Magic fans is that they expect him to "drop 30" every game but he doesn't

I was reading the Magic board, and one Magic poster said something along the lines of him being frustrated with AG because he "drops 25 one game and then 5 the next"

Well, it seems to me that AG is just on the wrong team

On the Pacers, we wouldn't expect him to "drop 30" every game - we have Vic and Domas as our primary scorers, and Brogdon and Myles can and do regularly chip in double digits, not forgetting that Aaron and Doug are also good for some buckets off the bench

If AG does indeed elevate his defensive game with the Pacers, I don't think we'd mind if he averages 10 ppg - the games where he "drops 25" will just be bonuses

Basically I see him as a big and athletic guy the team can use to slow down the likes of Jimmy Butler, Tobias Harris, Pascal Siakam, Jayson Tatum, and crucially Giannis (not saying he's going to be a Giannis stopper, but I think he'd help a lot)

I agree that offensively he works best near the basket, but like I said we don't need him to be a force on offense, I'm happy with just the occasional put backs - it basically just means more touches for others anyway, like Myles

Besides, he's a good cutter, and Domas is good at finding cutters, so that's already an automatic one or two baskets every game

Also, I've noticed that the team tends to stagger Domas and Myles a bit, so there will be plenty of opportunities for AG to slide to the 4 when one of Domas or Myles rests

I'm not saying it has to be specifically Warren + Lamb, but we need to offer enough value for Magic to at least consider it

Ideally I would like to do Doug + Sumner + Leaf for him, but that's like people offering us scraps for Myles

[Topofthekey]

A trade of Warren + Lamb for AG, if the Magic would take it, would improve the team by quite a bit I think

I disagree. I have come to appreciate what both Warren and Lamb bring to this team and think they are better for the team than Gordon could ever be. I also don't think it is a good idea to be making trades before even seeing this team whole and healthy.

Don't get me wrong, I like Warren and Lamb as well, especially Warren

I was one of the more optimistic ones when Pacers got Warren for nothing

I agree that it's a bit too early to make any trades, I'm just looking ahead to see what are the potential moves to be had

[Scoot McGroot]

If you’re trading for Gordon to play SF, and if you’re dealing Warren and Lamb, you’ll need him to okay on the wing, you’re going to be very disappointed. Offensively, any advantage he has requires him to be played as a small ball 5. He essentially brings athletic dunks and put backs, but not much else there. Put an athletic 3 or 4 on him and he’s pretty neutralized. Defensively, sure he can body up a lot of 3’s and 4’s. At the least, he should absolutely play the 4 or 5. At the 3, he’s kind of a failure. There certainly is an argument to be had if he’s an overall good player or not, though. If anything, he should be considered “not bad filler” in any potential trade. If you trade 2 of your best wings for him, you’re going to lose a lot on the court, though.

Yes, I see all the concerns you mentioned, as well

The thing with AG is, the main reason that's he's been seen as a disappointment so far by some Magic fans is that they expect him to "drop 30" every game but he doesn't

I was reading the Magic board, and one Magic poster said something along the lines of him being frustrated with AG because he "drops 25 one game and then 5 the next"

Well, it seems to me that AG is just on the wrong team

On the Pacers, we wouldn't expect him to "drop 30" every game - we have Vic and Domas as our primary scorers, and Brogdon and Myles can and do regularly chip in double digits, not forgetting that Aaron and Doug are also good for some buckets off the bench

If AG does indeed elevate his defensive game with the Pacers, I don't think we'd mind if he averages 10 ppg - the games where he "drops 25" will just be bonuses

Basically I see him as a big and athletic guy the team can use to slow down the likes of Jimmy Butler, Tobias Harris, Pascal Siakam, Jayson Tatum, and crucially Giannis (not saying he's going to be a Giannis stopper, but I think he'd help a lot)

I agree that offensively he works best near the basket, but like I said we don't need him to be a force on offense, I'm happy with just the occasional put backs - it basically just means more touches for others anyway, like Myles

Besides, he's a good cutter, and Domas is good at finding cutters, so that's already an automatic one or two baskets every game

Also, I've noticed that the team tends to stagger Domas and Myles a bit, so there will be plenty of opportunities for AG to slide to the 4 when one of Domas or Myles rests

I'm not saying it has to be specifically Warren + Lamb, but we need to offer enough value for Magic to at least consider it

Ideally I would like to do Doug + Sumner + Leaf for him, but that's like people offering us scraps for Myles

He’s not really a defensive stopper though. Nowhere close. That’s kind of been advertised for him for years, and it’s just not true. He’s an ok to good defender. But offensively, he’s a net negative. I’m not counting points, but he’s the type that’s going to hurt you. Yeah, he can cut, but that’s also where Vic, Brogdon, and Myles are all going to get the bread and butter as well, so his inability to reliably space the floor is a problem to be had. He’s the kind of guy that you’re hoping he can have a good night and defend just enough to make up the points he hurts you offensively. Realistically, a 7th man type guy. I could live with trading either Lamb or Warren in a deal for him to play off the bench, but not both, and not to start. We lose that deal quite handily.

[Scoot McGroot]

I think I’m also so strong in my opinion just because I don’t love Aaron Gordon, full in. He’s at the point where I would’ve liked to see some of that production come through, and you have to start writing off the potential as he plateaued early and has sort of leveled off ever since. If we can get him for one of Lamb or Warren, it’s a risk I understand to better balance the roster a bit. If it costs both, you really better hope he all of a sudden works his butt off and gets a lot better, because you’ll have weakened your team enough offensively to have to count on him to put up 15+ every night since you lost two main wing scorers, and other than Vic, you’ve only got defenders there (Sampson, Holiday), or less threatening scorers (McDermott).

[Topofthekey]

I think I’m also so strong in my opinion just because I don’t love Aaron Gordon, full in. He’s at the point where I would’ve liked to see some of that production come through, and you have to start writing off the potential as he plateaued early and has sort of leveled off ever since. If we can get him for one of Lamb or Warren, it’s a risk I understand to better balance the roster a bit. If it costs both, you really better hope he all of a sudden works his butt off and gets a lot better, because you’ll have weakened your team enough offensively to have to count on him to put up 15+ every night since you lost two main wing scorers, and other than Vic, you’ve only got defenders there (Sampson, Holiday), or less threatening scorers (McDermott).

Yes, it does feel like we're paying $1.80 only to get a dollar in return, but that is often the cost of consolidation trades

And yes, I do agree that the risk of AG not panning out on the Pacers is there; it's something that I am also undecided on, whether such a risk is worth the returns or not

[Tom White]

Yes, it does feel like we're paying $1.80 only to get a dollar in return, but that is often the cost of consolidation trades

And yes, I do agree that the risk of AG not panning out on the Pacers is there; it's something that I am also undecided on, whether such a risk is worth the returns or not

I think a lot of people got caught up in his high-flying dunking game when he came into the league. He has never really expanded on that and is pretty much just what he was back then.

[Topofthekey]

Yes, it does feel like we're paying $1.80 only to get a dollar in return, but that is often the cost of consolidation trades

And yes, I do agree that the risk of AG not panning out on the Pacers is there; it's something that I am also undecided on, whether such a risk is worth the returns or not

I think a lot of people got caught up in his high-flying dunking game when he came into the league. He has never really expanded on that and is pretty much just what he was back then.

Yea, that dunk contest certainly cemented people's impression of him

Mostly though, I think he's just on the wrong team

Some Magic fans are constantly waiting on him to "break out" and become their franchise player, and feel frustrated when he fails to take that step every season - it's not unlike the attitude some Pacer fans have towards Myles Turner

I think that on a team like the Pacers, even though the Pacers aren't a great team on offense, the team at least has established primary offensive players in Vic and Domas, and to a lesser extent Brogdon and Myles, so someone like AG won't be relied on to produce on offense

It's a bit like how Thad Young operated on the team, where the team did not have to run any plays for him, or specifically look for him on offense - Thad would somehow just find his way to the right place at the right time and get a bucket here and a bucket there, on his own

I envision the same thing with AG, where he's left on his own devices to score on the occasional put backs and cuts to the basket - and of course there will also be the occasional mismatches where he can exploit either his size or his athleticism to get a few easy baskets

Ideally, the hope is that AG can chip in maybe 12-14 ppg on offense, while developing into the kind of player who the Pacers can rely on to defend the opposing team's elite forwards

Also, someone mentioned somewhere that Nate tends to keep one of Myles or Domas in for a bit with the second unit to play center; I can see AG easily sliding to the 4 in this kind of setup - currently Pacers go with a small ball 4, like either Justin or Warren, when one of Myles or Domas take a rest

[Topofthekey]

I remember people saying in the offseason, that Paul George would be the ideal SF for this current Pacers team

Well, AG is of the same height as PG, but with more athleticism and a slightly longer wingspan

Of course, AG isn't the defender that PG is right now, but neither was PG when he first started out - he openly credited his stay with the Pacers with turning him into playing hard on defense

One can hope that given the physical tools of someone like AG, the Pacers staff can turn him into an elite defender as well

Yes, AG will never be the player PG is on offense, but as mentioned, Pacers don't need him to be

[Scoot McGroot]

I think I’m also so strong in my opinion just because I don’t love Aaron Gordon, full in. He’s at the point where I would’ve liked to see some of that production come through, and you have to start writing off the potential as he plateaued early and has sort of leveled off ever since. If we can get him for one of Lamb or Warren, it’s a risk I understand to better balance the roster a bit. If it costs both, you really better hope he all of a sudden works his butt off and gets a lot better, because you’ll have weakened your team enough offensively to have to count on him to put up 15+ every night since you lost two main wing scorers, and other than Vic, you’ve only got defenders there (Sampson, Holiday), or less threatening scorers (McDermott).

Yes, it does feel like we're paying $1.80 only to get a dollar in return, but that is often the cost of consolidation trades

And yes, I do agree that the risk of AG not panning out on the Pacers is there; it's something that I am also undecided on, whether such a risk is worth the returns or not

It feels more like paying $2 to get about 3 quarters back, and hope it maybe greatly reinvents itself and give you about $1.50, if everything works out right....

And if you acquire him, you better play him at the 4. In fact, he should be your first big off the bench and come in to replace either Myles/Dom. So I guess you start Justin Holiday then and bring Doug McDermott off the bench as the primary 3? Gordon is a 4. Not a 3. And he should be considered a 5 since he really needs to exist completely and thoroughly inside of 14' from the rim. He'll fill the lane at all times next to Dom, and he'll bring his man inside to stop drives from the Brogdons and Oladipo's of the world.

[Scoot McGroot]

I'm all about consolidation, if we can find the right deal. I just don't think Aaron Gordon is it, at all. And I certainly won't cripple my other positions to acquire him.

[granger05]

THIS ringer article kind of enraged me. I went in to read any small blurb about the Pacers and all I got was this regarding the Raptors and how well they've played through their recent spate of injuries.

The Mavericks, Pacers, and Jazz would likely bottom out harder if they were to lose as many players to injury as the Raptors have.

Huh? Dipo hasn't played yet, Myles Turner missed 8 games, Lamb missed 11 and Brogdon has missed 12. This is a site that purports to have people who pay attention.