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2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All

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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#61 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:40 pm

Vorda wrote:
boomershadow wrote:I'm kind of bummed that Darren Collison is staying retired. I saw some posters on the GB saying they didnt think he would even be good for the Lakers, probably because they never watched Pacers games from last year. But I really think if he played at the same level as the year before, he would be a really solid backup PG for a team with championship aspirations.


No he wouldnt...we saw him in PO...one of the worst PG ever...


He’s no star or top player at any point in his career, but we’ve had bad PG’s in our time here in Indy. Collison was upper tier for sure. Don’t let a recency bias lead you from the truth.
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#62 » by Topofthekey » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:19 pm

Wizop wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:So while no, you don't need the league MVP on your roster in order to win it all, you still need at least one player who is at least at All NBA second team level


have to think about this as I'm a big advocate for team ball and wish the league didn't market stars over winning teams. they always say something like "coming up it'll be A and the B's followed by X and the Y's." anyway, this could be a chicken and the egg question. does a top team need an all NBA player or is the best player on a top team pretty much guaranteed an all NBA slot?

I'd add that in the past 30 years, among the 60 teams that won their conference and made it to the finals, only 5 teams managed to do it without at least one All NBA 2nd team or better player

'10 Celtics, '05 Pistons, '00 Pacers, '99 Knicks, and '94 Knicks (all of them lost in the finals btw)

Among the five, the Celtics and Pistons team stand out because they had won in the previous one or two seasons with largely the same roster, so you might say they had championship experience to rely on

And if you want to entertain the conspiracy theory idea that the league actively tries to help a team like the Knicks (large market team) go as far as they can in the playoffs, then the list really just boils down to the '00 Pacers

So yea, without at least one All NBA 2nd team or better player, even winning the conference is a challenge, let alone the championship

I've thought about the chicken and egg thing, and maybe there is some of that at work - perhaps if the Pacers won, they'd reserve a spot on the 2nd team for either Vic or Domas

Let's hope it's that
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#63 » by Topofthekey » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:30 pm

Pacers_Freak wrote:Some here may not like it, but the answer is #1. IMO for a Indy, Mil, Det, etc to be championship caliber they are going to have to get lucky and land a Giannis type in the draft.

Which is tough when they rarely, if ever get a top pick, and they aren't particularly good at drafting either (they aren't terrible, just not great)
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#64 » by Wizop » Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:30 pm

Topofthekey wrote:And if you want to entertain the conspiracy theory idea that the league actively tries to help a team like the Knicks (large market team) go as far as they can in the playoffs


the system helps the big market teams without need of a conspiracy. they simply have more revenue because of corporate ticket and suite buyers who pay year in and year out regardless of record, and big local cable TV contracts that are not shared. the result is they can afford to pay luxury tax and do.
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#65 » by Tom White » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:01 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:
boomershadow wrote:I'm kind of bummed that Darren Collison is staying retired. I saw some posters on the GB saying they didnt think he would even be good for the Lakers, probably because they never watched Pacers games from last year. But I really think if he played at the same level as the year before, he would be a really solid backup PG for a team with championship aspirations.


No he wouldnt...we saw him in PO...one of the worst PG ever...


He’s no star or top player at any point in his career, but we’ve had bad PG’s in our time here in Indy. Collison was upper tier for sure. Don’t let a recency bias lead you from the truth.


I still say Collison must have peed in Vorda's Cheerios some time or another. No other excuse for his irrational hate of him.
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#66 » by Vorda » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:05 am

Tom White wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:
No he wouldnt...we saw him in PO...one of the worst PG ever...


He’s no star or top player at any point in his career, but we’ve had bad PG’s in our time here in Indy. Collison was upper tier for sure. Don’t let a recency bias lead you from the truth.


I still say Collison must have peed in Vorda's Cherrios some time or another. No other excuse for his irrational hate of him.


12 p, 6 a without defense... and he was starter... no comment...
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#67 » by Vorda » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:10 am

You have guy here who still hate Bojan, and I'm problem with that average guard... ridiculous...
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#68 » by Pacers_Freak » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:54 pm

Vorda wrote:You have guy here who still hate Bojan, and I'm problem with that average guard... ridiculous...


Who hates Bojan? Never seen anyone say that. I freaking love that guy! I was at the playoff game against the Cavs when he went off and it is one of my favorite live sports moments of my life. I'll always be a big Bogie fan!
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#69 » by Vorda » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:55 pm

Pacers_Freak wrote:
Vorda wrote:You have guy here who still hate Bojan, and I'm problem with that average guard... ridiculous...


Who hates Bojan? Never seen anyone say that. I freaking love that guy! I was at the playoff game against the Cavs when he went off and it is one of my favorite live sports moments of my life. I'll always be a big Bogie fan!
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#70 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:08 pm

Vorda wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
Vorda wrote:You have guy here who still hate Bojan, and I'm problem with that average guard... ridiculous...


Who hates Bojan? Never seen anyone say that. I freaking love that guy! I was at the playoff game against the Cavs when he went off and it is one of my favorite live sports moments of my life. I'll always be a big Bogie fan!
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Sigh. I think English being your second language has caused you to misread something and assume something that isn’t true.

A poster said they’re happy to move on from Bogie to Warren because of age and contract. That’s not the same as “hating Bogie”. Quite the opposite. It shows that Bogie is respected, but that situations changed.


And Collison is widely believed to be a fine enough defender at the Pg spot in the nba. He was since his rookie year. You are the outlier in this belief. He’s no superstar, for sure. But he wasn’t signed to be that. If you assumed he should be that, and judge him based solely on that comparison, that’s you’re failure, neither Collison’s nor the team’s.
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#71 » by basketballwacko2 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:09 pm

I don't think anyone here hates Bogie. I know when he was signed some thought it was an over pay, but he earned his money. I would like to have brought him back. But money is a big concern in the business of basketball! Indianapolis is a small market this team cannot afford to pay the tax.

The Pacers have a well constructed payroll and roster. All we need is a fully healthy Victor and a good backup power forward!
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#72 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:46 pm

In hindsight, I wish we could've structured McConnell's deal a tad bit differently, as well as Brogdon's, and maintained Bojan's cap hold and offered the 4th year. If he'd have taken it, I'd then have started Bojan at the 3, and stepped him up to the 4 in our staggered rotations and brought Warren off the bench at the 3. Holiday would essentially have taken Lamb's spot this whole season, with a few minutes to Justin, while Bojan would've taken Goga's few minutes this season ultimately, with a few more coming to Justin, too. It could've been done, but would've required walking on some eggshells. But, we just weren't willing to give Bojan that 4th year. And who can blame him for taking it in Utah? :dontknow:
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#73 » by Topofthekey » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:10 am

They should try starting Doug

Six consecutive losses, it's something worth trying

Puts another shooter in the starting lineup, and Warren being matched up with the opponent's second unit should allow him to score with impunity
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#74 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:05 am

Topofthekey wrote:They should try starting Doug

Six consecutive losses, it's something worth trying

Puts another shooter in the starting lineup, and Warren being matched up with the opponent's second unit should allow him to score with impunity



I wouldn’t go that far and I wouldn’t break up the bench unit. That thing has just operated so much better than the individual sum of its parts. I think we just need to be much better at our close out lineups and play Myles more than Lamb. I think it comes much more from Nates tendency to match down to his opponents than to try and force them to matchup to us. If they’re playing an extra wing to fire up shots and catch up, he’s been playing 3 wings with Lamb instead of playing both Myles and Dom and forcing them to work around our better defensive lineup.
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#75 » by Vorda » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:09 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Vorda wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:
Who hates Bojan? Never seen anyone say that. I freaking love that guy! I was at the playoff game against the Cavs when he went off and it is one of my favorite live sports moments of my life. I'll always be a big Bogie fan!
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Sigh. I think English being your second language has caused you to misread something and assume something that isn’t true.

A poster said they’re happy to move on from Bogie to Warren because of age and contract. That’s not the same as “hating Bogie”. Quite the opposite. It shows that Bogie is respected, but that situations changed.


And Collison is widely believed to be a fine enough defender at the Pg spot in the nba. He was since his rookie year. You are the outlier in this belief. He’s no superstar, for sure. But he wasn’t signed to be that. If you assumed he should be that, and judge him based solely on that comparison, that’s you’re failure, neither Collison’s nor the team’s.


Say what you want but there is still one who doesnt like Bojan, and he is not hiding that... but I'm problem with poor guy DC... ok
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#76 » by Topofthekey » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:08 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:They should try starting Doug

Six consecutive losses, it's something worth trying

Puts another shooter in the starting lineup, and Warren being matched up with the opponent's second unit should allow him to score with impunity



I wouldn’t go that far and I wouldn’t break up the bench unit. That thing has just operated so much better than the individual sum of its parts. I think we just need to be much better at our close out lineups and play Myles more than Lamb. I think it comes much more from Nates tendency to match down to his opponents than to try and force them to matchup to us. If they’re playing an extra wing to fire up shots and catch up, he’s been playing 3 wings with Lamb instead of playing both Myles and Dom and forcing them to work around our better defensive lineup.

That's true. The Myles and Domas pairing, at times when all the gears fall into place, is a force - one that not many teams can match up well to

Whoever the big man coach on the team is, he needs to put in the extra shifts to find a way to make it work
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#77 » by boomershadow » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:17 pm

The last really good Xs and Os coach we have had was probably Rick Carlisle. The effect of coaching is pretty underrated in the NBA because the narrative is always "hurr hurr star player winz".
But players have to be put in the position to maximize their skills. Every NBA team wants more talent, but I dont think anyone thinks we are getting the most out of the talent we currently have, and that's on McMillan.
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#78 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:37 pm

boomershadow wrote:The last really good Xs and Os coach we have had was probably Rick Carlisle. The effect of coaching is pretty underrated in the NBA because the narrative is always "hurr hurr star player winz".
But players have to be put in the position to maximize their skills. Every NBA team wants more talent, but I dont think anyone thinks we are getting the most out of the talent we currently have, and that's on McMillan.



And really, Nate’s a great leader of a coach. He’s pretty much maintained a well thought of locker room and gotten guys to sacrifice for the good of the team. In terms of coaches, that’s a good head coach skill to have, IF you can maintain a staff that covers elsewhere. Burke has clearly always been a magician when it working a defensive system. I guess the questions are of what Bayno and Popeye provide are covering the other weaknesses.
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#79 » by Pacers_Freak » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:23 pm

boomershadow wrote:The last really good Xs and Os coach we have had was probably Rick Carlisle. The effect of coaching is pretty underrated in the NBA because the narrative is always "hurr hurr star player winz".
But players have to be put in the position to maximize their skills. Every NBA team wants more talent, but I dont think anyone thinks we are getting the most out of the talent we currently have, and that's on McMillan.


Not defending this 6 game skid. But, prior to that many would have had Nate in the top 3 in COY voting. I think the team without Vic and all the other injuries very much over achieved. I'm not a staunch Nate defender. This is skid is not good and certainly some of the blame goes to him. But I think its easy in a skid to say the coach needs to go or whatever. If you think coaching is underrated then I'm guessing you are a big Nate fan with how this team was playing with all their injuries prior to this skid?
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Re: 2020 Trade Deadline Catch-All 

Post#80 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:55 pm

I also didn’t expect us to be so good the first half of the year. A bit of regression to the mean happening?

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