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You're going to want to read this one in depth. It's got some juicy tidbits.

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2020/07/08/evaluating-how-pacers-president-kevin-pritchard-rates-victor-oladipo-trade-tj-leaf-draft/3220114001/

Some tidbits that J. Michael drops in the article.

While Pritchard has been more of a player's president than Bird, Leaf's development has been stunted by declining G-League assignments. He wouldn't even attend Tim Grgurich's vaunted summer camp in Las Vegas. Pritchard allows Nate McMillan more input, whereas Bird wouldn't listen to his coaches after Frank Vogel talked him out of drafting Draymond Green because he thought the combo forward's feet were too slow to defend in NBA.

Whoa! We hadn't heard that Leaf was refusing G-League assignments or summer work with experts, yet. Or that Bird was centered on drafting Draymond, but Vogel talked him out of it.

The previous summer had promise with Evans but proved forgettable in the long run. There were a series of one-year deals that backfired and hurt locker room chemistry. Evans had his moments but it's a signing the franchise regrets.

Evans' problems with alcohol were known before coming to Indiana, but free-agent scoring guards were near extinct in the market. Pritchard resisted the temptation to release him multiple times during that season, allowing Evans' teammates to rally around him to help.

They knew his issues were bigger than basketball and multiple players, including Thaddeus Young, told IndyStar they appreciated the understanding showed by the Pacers.

Interesting talk here that we nearly cut Tyreke several times during the season, but tried to help him along.

A deal he could've made last year involved a three-team deal to send Turner to the New Orleans Pelicans, who would've sent Jahlil Okafor and other assets to the Atlanta Hawks. In exchange, the Pacers would've finally gotten Collins and a lottery pick (in a weak draft) from Atlanta.

Pritchard stood pat, opting to give the Turner-Sabonis combination a chance first.

Absolute bombshell here. This would've been a deal of Turner to New Orleans, Okafor/4 to Atlanta (to draft Hunter), and Collins/10 (where Atlanta drafted Reddish) to Indy? Maybe we also had to include the pick that became Goga? But bombshell!



And even more! Definitely worth a clickthrough!

The TJ tidbit is pretty damning. Not sure what right a 3-year bench warmer has to decline any opportunity to compete against NBA players. His experiment has come to an end.

On the last point, I do like John Collins, but I'm not sure what trading Turner for him does for Indy. Unless you're banking on the 10th pick in the draft being the best player in that trade, it seems like swapping one log-jam for another. I suppose Collins is more of a PF than a C in the traditional sense, but regardless...

Jake0890 wrote:The TJ tidbit is pretty damning. Not sure what right a 3-year bench warmer has to decline any opportunity to compete against NBA players. His experiment has come to an end.

Yeah. It certainly seems like some confidence and game play would've really helped him these last 3 years, but alas. But not going to the Tim Grgurich camp either? I'm just not sure what he wants to be in the NBA.

On the last point, I do like John Collins, but I'm not sure what trading Turner for him does for Indy. Unless you're banking on the 10th pick in the draft being the best player in that trade, it seems like swapping one log-jam for another. I suppose Collins is more of a PF than a C in the traditional sense, but regardless...

Yeah, it's likely the argument against trading Myles or Dom for just ANY PF because they're both centers. Collins has talent, and is a 4 right now, but he is a defensive liability, even though he's quite a good offensive guy overall. He seems like he'd be more of a pairing for Myles? But, he's also not a creator, so Sabonis would be a better pairing? Who knows. But, a package of 10/Collins being turned down for Myles seems to show what type of value Indy places on Myles if we were to move him.

Vogel was probably projecting Green to be a 3 instead of a 4/5

boomershadow wrote:Vogel was probably projecting Green to be a 3 instead of a 4/5

Might've been. However, in all fairness, Green did have an absolutely abysmal workout at the combine, and measured and tested poorly. I think he had the highest body fat percentage in years at that point. But, a 4 year senior from a blue blood college program should be judged a little more on their excessive amount of tape.

Scoot McGroot wrote:You're going to want to read this one in depth. It's got some juicy tidbits.

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2020/07/08/evaluating-how-pacers-president-kevin-pritchard-rates-victor-oladipo-trade-tj-leaf-draft/3220114001/

Some tidbits that J. Michael drops in the article.

While Pritchard has been more of a player's president than Bird, Leaf's development has been stunted by declining G-League assignments. He wouldn't even attend Tim Grgurich's vaunted summer camp in Las Vegas. Pritchard allows Nate McMillan more input, whereas Bird wouldn't listen to his coaches after Frank Vogel talked him out of drafting Draymond Green because he thought the combo forward's feet were too slow to defend in NBA.

Whoa! We hadn't heard that Leaf was refusing G-League assignments or summer work with experts, yet. Or that Bird was centered on drafting Draymond, but Vogel talked him out of it.

The previous summer had promise with Evans but proved forgettable in the long run. There were a series of one-year deals that backfired and hurt locker room chemistry. Evans had his moments but it's a signing the franchise regrets.

Evans' problems with alcohol were known before coming to Indiana, but free-agent scoring guards were near extinct in the market. Pritchard resisted the temptation to release him multiple times during that season, allowing Evans' teammates to rally around him to help.

They knew his issues were bigger than basketball and multiple players, including Thaddeus Young, told IndyStar they appreciated the understanding showed by the Pacers.

Interesting talk here that we nearly cut Tyreke several times during the season, but tried to help him along.

A deal he could've made last year involved a three-team deal to send Turner to the New Orleans Pelicans, who would've sent Jahlil Okafor and other assets to the Atlanta Hawks. In exchange, the Pacers would've finally gotten Collins and a lottery pick (in a weak draft) from Atlanta.

Pritchard stood pat, opting to give the Turner-Sabonis combination a chance first.

Absolute bombshell here. This would've been a deal of Turner to New Orleans, Okafor/4 to Atlanta (to draft Hunter), and Collins/10 (where Atlanta drafted Reddish) to Indy? Maybe we also had to include the pick that became Goga? But bombshell!



And even more! Definitely worth a clickthrough!

So let me get this straight, TJ Leaf is not working out for the Pacers?

Vogel talked Bird into drafting Miles Plumblee instead of Dremond Green! No wonder I hate this freaking game.

Jake0890 wrote:The TJ tidbit is pretty damning. Not sure what right a 3-year bench warmer has to decline any opportunity to compete against NBA players. His experiment has come to an end.

On the last point, I do like John Collins, but I'm not sure what trading Turner for him does for Indy. Unless you're banking on the 10th pick in the draft being the best player in that trade, it seems like swapping one log-jam for another. I suppose Collins is more of a PF than a C in the traditional sense, but regardless...

TJ Leaf is was and always will be a pile of garbage! I said it on draft night nearly got banned for my opinion. Now we see that this entitled rich boy won't even go play in the G-League!!

basketballwacko2 wrote:

Jake0890 wrote:The TJ tidbit is pretty damning. Not sure what right a 3-year bench warmer has to decline any opportunity to compete against NBA players. His experiment has come to an end.

On the last point, I do like John Collins, but I'm not sure what trading Turner for him does for Indy. Unless you're banking on the 10th pick in the draft being the best player in that trade, it seems like swapping one log-jam for another. I suppose Collins is more of a PF than a C in the traditional sense, but regardless...

TJ Leaf is was and always will be a pile of garbage! I said it on draft night nearly got banned for my opinion. Now we see that this entitled rich boy won't even go play in the G-League!!

Who almost banned you? I was the active mod here at the time.

Scoot McGroot wrote:

basketballwacko2 wrote:

Jake0890 wrote:The TJ tidbit is pretty damning. Not sure what right a 3-year bench warmer has to decline any opportunity to compete against NBA players. His experiment has come to an end.

On the last point, I do like John Collins, but I'm not sure what trading Turner for him does for Indy. Unless you're banking on the 10th pick in the draft being the best player in that trade, it seems like swapping one log-jam for another. I suppose Collins is more of a PF than a C in the traditional sense, but regardless...

TJ Leaf is was and always will be a pile of garbage! I said it on draft night nearly got banned for my opinion. Now we see that this entitled rich boy won't even go play in the G-League!!

Who almost banned you? I was the active mod here at the time.

June 23rd 2017. I've still got the PM. That's why I didn't post here for 3 months. It happened again recently because if you don't tow the party line in this place and in most of public life now you get cancelled. Well sorry to the morons but I'm not towing the f'ing line!

basketballwacko2 wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:

basketballwacko2 wrote:

TJ Leaf is was and always will be a pile of garbage! I said it on draft night nearly got banned for my opinion. Now we see that this entitled rich boy won't even go play in the G-League!!

Who almost banned you? I was the active mod here at the time.

June 23rd 2017. I've still got the PM. That's why I didn't post here for 3 months. It happened again recently because if you don't tow the party line in this place and in most of public life now you get cancelled. Well sorry to the morons but I'm not towing the f'ing line!

Did you read the article? Any thing you want to talk about from the article?

I've always given Leaf the benefit of the doubt

But yea, if he's turning down G league assignments in favour of sitting on the bench, then there's really not much to say in his defense anymore

Roster construction under Pritch is a ton better than the last few years of Bird's tenure. We have had a decent bench for the first time in what felt like many years. His FA signings have generally been good. Even the Tyreke signing was pretty much universally praised when it happened, and part of why I don't think it worked out is just gameplan. Bojan and Warren look like diamonds pulled from the rough. The Collison signing was underrated. The PG trade return looks pretty good compared to the disaster that situation could have been.

Drafting? The Leaf pick looks bad bad bad. I personally was pulling for Anunoby that year. Imagine him on this team I really wanted to be optimistic because I had never seen Leaf play much....and I still really haven't. Holiday looks like he has potential, and he has been a pretty decent fill in starter at times which is promising, but we have yet to see if he can be a real NBA point guard or just an off the bench chucker. Though his defense could keep him in the league even if all else fails.

I think ultimately, Pritch's first years here will be tied to Nate McMillan. If Nate gets everyone to buy in, play team ball, work hard, and perform well then the team could end up being very successful. If the team continues to underperform to expectations, as Nate's past teams have often done, then the Pacers will likely come up with a first round exit year after year, then I think the team will have earned its reputation as an organization content to just make the playoffs but never capable or willing to make any legit noise. I personally think it will have been a failure if in 4-5 years we are still looking back at those ECF with the Heat teams as the most exciting Pacer teams in recent memory.

Scoot McGroot wrote:

basketballwacko2 wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Who almost banned you? I was the active mod here at the time.

June 23rd 2017. I've still got the PM. That's why I didn't post here for 3 months. It happened again recently because if you don't tow the party line in this place and in most of public life now you get cancelled. Well sorry to the morons but I'm not towing the f'ing line!

Did you read the article? Any thing you want to talk about from the article?

I read what you quoted that was enough for me. TJ Leaf is an empty uniform should have never been drafted should have maybe been a 2nd round pick which is where I had him mid 2nd round. If basketball ever resumes he'll be playing in china or europe I don't wish him any bad things but I wish he was not on the team. He's a wasted roster spot and his 2020-21 salary is $4.3 million that's about $4.299 million too much.

Topofthekey wrote:I've always given Leaf the benefit of the doubt

But yea, if he's turning down G league assignments in favour of sitting on the bench, then there's really not much to say in his defense anymore

I'd just offer him a buy out or pay some team $4 million to take him.

basketballwacko2 wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:

basketballwacko2 wrote:
June 23rd 2017. I've still got the PM. That's why I didn't post here for 3 months. It happened again recently because if you don't tow the party line in this place and in most of public life now you get cancelled. Well sorry to the morons but I'm not towing the f'ing line!

Did you read the article? Any thing you want to talk about from the article?

I read what you quoted that was enough for me. TJ Leaf is an empty uniform should have never been drafted should have maybe been a 2nd round pick which is where I had him mid 2nd round. If basketball ever resumes he'll be playing in china or europe I don't wish him any bad things but I wish he was not on the team. He's a wasted roster spot and his 2020-21 salary is $4.3 million that's about $4.299 million too much.

Reading is FUNdamental! There’s a lot more in the article.

Scoot McGroot wrote:

basketballwacko2 wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Did you read the article? Any thing you want to talk about from the article?

I read what you quoted that was enough for me. TJ Leaf is an empty uniform should have never been drafted should have maybe been a 2nd round pick which is where I had him mid 2nd round. If basketball ever resumes he'll be playing in china or europe I don't wish him any bad things but I wish he was not on the team. He's a wasted roster spot and his 2020-21 salary is $4.3 million that's about $4.299 million too much.

Reading is FUNdamental! There’s a lot more in the article.

I'm reading this kind of stuff on an as needed basis since I have other more pressing research to do that doesn't involve a game that may be extinct in a few months.

Scoot McGroot wrote:

basketballwacko2 wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Did you read the article? Any thing you want to talk about from the article?

I read what you quoted that was enough for me. TJ Leaf is an empty uniform should have never been drafted should have maybe been a 2nd round pick which is where I had him mid 2nd round. If basketball ever resumes he'll be playing in china or europe I don't wish him any bad things but I wish he was not on the team. He's a wasted roster spot and his 2020-21 salary is $4.3 million that's about $4.299 million too much.

Reading is FUNdamental! There’s a lot more in the article.

I don't have an IndyStar subscription lol.

Usually they let you see a couple articles a month for free, but I don't think this one is available that way.

basketballwacko2 wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:

basketballwacko2 wrote:
I read what you quoted that was enough for me. TJ Leaf is an empty uniform should have never been drafted should have maybe been a 2nd round pick which is where I had him mid 2nd round. If basketball ever resumes he'll be playing in china or europe I don't wish him any bad things but I wish he was not on the team. He's a wasted roster spot and his 2020-21 salary is $4.3 million that's about $4.299 million too much.

Reading is FUNdamental! There’s a lot more in the article.

I'm reading this kind of stuff on an as needed basis since I have other more pressing research to do that doesn't involve a game that may be extinct in a few months.

Then why are you spending time on RealGM silly?!?

boomershadow wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:

basketballwacko2 wrote:
I read what you quoted that was enough for me. TJ Leaf is an empty uniform should have never been drafted should have maybe been a 2nd round pick which is where I had him mid 2nd round. If basketball ever resumes he'll be playing in china or europe I don't wish him any bad things but I wish he was not on the team. He's a wasted roster spot and his 2020-21 salary is $4.3 million that's about $4.299 million too much.

Reading is FUNdamental! There’s a lot more in the article.

I don't have an IndyStar subscription lol.

Usually they let you see a couple articles a month for free, but I don't think this one is available that way.

Bummer. They're worth a digital subscription, though, for J. Michael alone. I generally like Doyle's deep dives into interesting stories (though not his hot takes on professional/college teams and what they should do).

I'll be honest. I like Holder/Keefer at The Athletic MUCH better than what IndyStar rolls out, but IndyStar's not shabby either, and look at what they did in their in depth research into the Nassar scandal in gymnastics.

boomershadow wrote:Vogel was probably projecting Green to be a 3 instead of a 4/5

Possibly even the 2 considering lot's of SGs are his height.

It's mostly a fun article to me. Pacers were probably very close to half the league

What happened, happened, no regrets. Not a fan of personalities like Draymond, J Collins and Trae Young, nor their (nutkicking) defense.