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It is time...

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Re: It is time... 

Post#41 » by DayofMourning » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:34 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:Nope. I think about 18-20 teams around the league would beat that offer with their first offer and any final offers would go up from there.

PG said he wanted to be in LA and we didn’t send him there. Artest listed places he wanted to go, and we didn’t send him there. JO listed places and we didn’t send him there. We got the best offer we could receive.

And no matter how you feel about the guy, Oladipo isn’t signing for $20m.


I realize we have different perspectives on his value. I also realize that the package I suggested isn't that strong, but it is the only package we could offer.

Just for reference:

Nunn vs Oladipo 2020

That's the Oladipo I see. An older, more experienced, better defensive version of Nunn. The defensive side of the ball is what draws my interest. Nunn has been a matador at times this year. Er, most of the time. I'd like to upgrade, but the cost you suggest to acquire him is outside Miami's reality.

Anyways, it will be fun to reference this a year from now.
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Re: It is time... 

Post#42 » by 8305 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:38 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:
8305 wrote:That's the million $$ question. He's the reigning face of the franchise. Gotta think his value right now is pretty low but, it would be a public relations disaster to give him away. I get Herro and Bam untouchable. Olyntic is crazy redundant. The only others I can think of are Robinson and Nunn. Not sure the Pacers could sell that.


Yep. I think Robinson is off the table. So that leaves Nunn. :lol:

My thoughts were that the best package we could offer would be Iggy, Nunn, and our first round pick (draft night). That's literally the best package we can offer. Every other desirable player we have is pretty much a core piece, which you can't move, especially if your plan is 2021 anyways, when Dipo will be a free agent.

The only way things could happen would be if Oladipo said he's moving on, and to Miami. In which case, Indy could make a deal to recoup value. No other team would touch him if they believed he wouldn't resign.[/quote


Nope. I think about 18-20 teams around the league would beat that offer with their first offer and any final offers would go up from there.

PG said he wanted to be in LA and we didn’t send him there. Artest listed places he wanted to go, and we didn’t send him there. JO listed places and we didn’t send him there. We got the best offer we could receive.

And no matter how you feel about the guy, Oladipo isn’t signing for $20m.


Agree, we’d keep him and take our chances if that were the best offer.
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Re: It is time... 

Post#43 » by Wizop » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:48 pm

Warren is our 3 not our 4. He can play some 4 as can JHolla and Doug but we need a better backup 4. Not at the cost of a starter though.

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Re: It is time... 

Post#44 » by 8305 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:51 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
If you think that Oladipo’s leg is 100% of what it will ever be and he’ll not gain anything back, you may be right. But even then, in few agency, he’s likely still a $20m per year player as is right now. That’s the market.

If you think his quad was truly atrophied a couple months ago when he got his cast/brace off and that he’s still working that leg strength back to where it was, then he’s got a long way to go to keep improving, and most of the issues we saw would be improved upon by just that.

It’s a tough situation, and I’m not 100% on the fence either way. I’m just the guy straddling the fence who’s saying “you’re upset now, but be realistic and honest and think through your moves, or else you’ll have Andrew Wiggins clogging your cap and killing your team for another 3 years before you realize it”.


How long has it been since the cast came off? I’m thinking about a year? Honestly, I’m straddling the same fence. I’m not sure Pacers will have any choice but to stick it out with Vic and hope they can piece something together. Something Vic whoever he is in 2021 will want to be a part of.
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Re: It is time... 

Post#45 » by boomershadow » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:35 pm

With a coaching change, I think it's better to hold steady on the roster as much as possible and re-evaluate the talent based on how next season goes with someone new in charge. Otherwise we'll never know the answer to is it the roster construction or is it the coaching? I still think the roster pieces fit fairly well together, but if it becomes evident it still doesn't work even under new leadership then you can make a deal before the trade deadline, whenever that is.
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Re: It is time... 

Post#46 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:42 pm

DayofMourning wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:Nope. I think about 18-20 teams around the league would beat that offer with their first offer and any final offers would go up from there.

PG said he wanted to be in LA and we didn’t send him there. Artest listed places he wanted to go, and we didn’t send him there. JO listed places and we didn’t send him there. We got the best offer we could receive.

And no matter how you feel about the guy, Oladipo isn’t signing for $20m.


I realize we have different perspectives on his value. I also realize that the package I suggested isn't that strong, but it is the only package we could offer.

Just for reference:

Nunn vs Oladipo 2020

That's the Oladipo I see. An older, more experienced, better defensive version of Nunn. The defensive side of the ball is what draws my interest. Nunn has been a matador at times this year. Er, most of the time. I'd like to upgrade, but the cost you suggest to acquire him is outside Miami's reality.

Anyways, it will be fun to reference this a year from now.



Yet, you still prefer Oladipo and are willing to pay for the "upgrade". Why is that? Because you think he's truly only going to be the player he was this year, and he'll be a bad offensive guard, but a good defender, or because you think he'll get closer to what he was and simply be an immense upgrade on Nunn and you're hoping to get Oladipo for as little as possible?
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Re: It is time... 

Post#47 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:44 pm

8305 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
If you think that Oladipo’s leg is 100% of what it will ever be and he’ll not gain anything back, you may be right. But even then, in few agency, he’s likely still a $20m per year player as is right now. That’s the market.

If you think his quad was truly atrophied a couple months ago when he got his cast/brace off and that he’s still working that leg strength back to where it was, then he’s got a long way to go to keep improving, and most of the issues we saw would be improved upon by just that.

It’s a tough situation, and I’m not 100% on the fence either way. I’m just the guy straddling the fence who’s saying “you’re upset now, but be realistic and honest and think through your moves, or else you’ll have Andrew Wiggins clogging your cap and killing your team for another 3 years before you realize it”.


How long has it been since the cast came off? I’m thinking about a year? Honestly, I’m straddling the same fence. I’m not sure Pacers will have any choice but to stick it out with Vic and hope they can piece something together. Something Vic whoever he is in 2021 will want to be a part of.


You think his quad is going to fully regain all the strength in about a year from having absolutely no activity for 3-6 months? Athletic gains happen over time. They don't just flip a switch and come right back.
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Re: It is time... 

Post#48 » by DayofMourning » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:58 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:Yet, you still prefer Oladipo and are willing to pay for the "upgrade". Why is that? Because you think he's truly only going to be the player he was this year, and he'll be a bad offensive guard, but a good defender, or because you think he'll get closer to what he was and simply be an immense upgrade on Nunn and you're hoping to get Oladipo for as little as possible?


$20 million per year is hardly "little". And yes, I prefer we have a guard who can stay on the court for his defensive ability when his shot isn't falling.

I get your perspective. Oladipo is a max level player to you. He isn't to me. He never was to me, and he certainly isn't now. I'd like to add a player who can play both ends of the floor to our guard rotation. However, I wouldn't sacrifice a chance at a generational player to overpay for Oladipo.
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Re: It is time... 

Post#49 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:36 pm

DayofMourning wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:Yet, you still prefer Oladipo and are willing to pay for the "upgrade". Why is that? Because you think he's truly only going to be the player he was this year, and he'll be a bad offensive guard, but a good defender, or because you think he'll get closer to what he was and simply be an immense upgrade on Nunn and you're hoping to get Oladipo for as little as possible?


$20 million per year is hardly "little". And yes, I prefer we have a guard who can stay on the court for his defensive ability when his shot isn't falling.

I get your perspective. Oladipo is a max level player to you. He isn't to me. He never was to me, and he certainly isn't now. I'd like to add a player who can play both ends of the floor to our guard rotation. However, I wouldn't sacrifice a chance at a generational player to overpay for Oladipo.


It's borderline top 50 in salary. It's pretty little in the NBA. It's what you'd pay about your 3rd best player.

But just admit what it is you want. You want to add a much better player for very little and want to be affirmed by the hometown fans that you're being generous.


In reality, what may happen, is that Miami wouldn't consider big trades for Oladipo, or anyone else, until after they hear from Giannis next year. Because, in order to acquire both players, they NEED one to first sign using cap space, and THEN arrange a S&T for the other player. There's no realistic way to get both without that happening in the summer of 2021. Trading for a guy now means you can't then use cap space to sign Giannis, as you'd have to renounce the cap hold for an Oladipo in the summer of 2021 to sign Giannis, and then you'd have absolutely minimal free agent space left (less than $5m realistically) that you'd have to convince Oladipo to re-sign with.
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Re: It is time... 

Post#50 » by DayofMourning » Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:53 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:Yet, you still prefer Oladipo and are willing to pay for the "upgrade". Why is that? Because you think he's truly only going to be the player he was this year, and he'll be a bad offensive guard, but a good defender, or because you think he'll get closer to what he was and simply be an immense upgrade on Nunn and you're hoping to get Oladipo for as little as possible?


$20 million per year is hardly "little". And yes, I prefer we have a guard who can stay on the court for his defensive ability when his shot isn't falling.

I get your perspective. Oladipo is a max level player to you. He isn't to me. He never was to me, and he certainly isn't now. I'd like to add a player who can play both ends of the floor to our guard rotation. However, I wouldn't sacrifice a chance at a generational player to overpay for Oladipo.


It's borderline top 50 in salary. It's pretty little in the NBA. It's what you'd pay about your 3rd best player.

But just admit what it is you want. You want to add a much better player for very little and want to be affirmed by the hometown fans that you're being generous.


In reality, what may happen, is that Miami wouldn't consider big trades for Oladipo, or anyone else, until after they hear from Giannis next year. Because, in order to acquire both players, they NEED one to first sign using cap space, and THEN arrange a S&T for the other player. There's no realistic way to get both without that happening in the summer of 2021. Trading for a guy now means you can't then use cap space to sign Giannis, as you'd have to renounce the cap hold for an Oladipo in the summer of 2021 to sign Giannis, and then you'd have absolutely minimal free agent space left (less than $5m realistically) that you'd have to convince Oladipo to re-sign with.


I've admitted that our package we could realistically offer isn't great. Yet I'm being generous? I was curious, and certainly not seeking your approval.

Good luck next year. Hope Oladipo gets healthy and becomes the cornerstone you strive for him to be.
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Re: It is time... 

Post#51 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:14 am

DayofMourning wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:
$20 million per year is hardly "little". And yes, I prefer we have a guard who can stay on the court for his defensive ability when his shot isn't falling.

I get your perspective. Oladipo is a max level player to you. He isn't to me. He never was to me, and he certainly isn't now. I'd like to add a player who can play both ends of the floor to our guard rotation. However, I wouldn't sacrifice a chance at a generational player to overpay for Oladipo.


It's borderline top 50 in salary. It's pretty little in the NBA. It's what you'd pay about your 3rd best player.

But just admit what it is you want. You want to add a much better player for very little and want to be affirmed by the hometown fans that you're being generous.


In reality, what may happen, is that Miami wouldn't consider big trades for Oladipo, or anyone else, until after they hear from Giannis next year. Because, in order to acquire both players, they NEED one to first sign using cap space, and THEN arrange a S&T for the other player. There's no realistic way to get both without that happening in the summer of 2021. Trading for a guy now means you can't then use cap space to sign Giannis, as you'd have to renounce the cap hold for an Oladipo in the summer of 2021 to sign Giannis, and then you'd have absolutely minimal free agent space left (less than $5m realistically) that you'd have to convince Oladipo to re-sign with.


I've admitted that our package we could realistically offer isn't great. Yet I'm being generous? I was curious, and certainly not seeking your approval.

Good luck next year. Hope Oladipo gets healthy and becomes the cornerstone you strive for him to be.


No worries. You don't need my approval. I'm just affirming that it's a really terrible offer, and not one that I can imagine that Pritchard would come close to listening to. It's just one of those kinds of offers that gets you laughed off the phone, and not called back when final offers are accepted. And that when you're visiting other forums and asking about their best players in trade, you say "This is the most we could offer and you obviously couldn't accept it" rather than digging in further and try to imply that the guy you're trading us is just as valuable as our guy, when he's clearly not.

You're always welcome here. All are. And I hope that the reality I shared with you doesn't make you feel otherwise. Just, maybe a lesson to take when you visit other forums around the league is all? Visits are great! But small attempts at a gaslighting kind of thing aren't really welcomed. :dontknow:
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Re: It is time... 

Post#52 » by Topofthekey » Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:15 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
DayofMourning wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:Nope. I think about 18-20 teams around the league would beat that offer with their first offer and any final offers would go up from there.

PG said he wanted to be in LA and we didn’t send him there. Artest listed places he wanted to go, and we didn’t send him there. JO listed places and we didn’t send him there. We got the best offer we could receive.

And no matter how you feel about the guy, Oladipo isn’t signing for $20m.


I realize we have different perspectives on his value. I also realize that the package I suggested isn't that strong, but it is the only package we could offer.

Just for reference:

Nunn vs Oladipo 2020

That's the Oladipo I see. An older, more experienced, better defensive version of Nunn. The defensive side of the ball is what draws my interest. Nunn has been a matador at times this year. Er, most of the time. I'd like to upgrade, but the cost you suggest to acquire him is outside Miami's reality.

Anyways, it will be fun to reference this a year from now.



Yet, you still prefer Oladipo and are willing to pay for the "upgrade". Why is that? Because you think he's truly only going to be the player he was this year, and he'll be a bad offensive guard, but a good defender, or because you think he'll get closer to what he was and simply be an immense upgrade on Nunn and you're hoping to get Oladipo for as little as possible?

You said what's on my mind, except in a much more diplomatic way
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Re: It is time... 

Post#53 » by boomershadow » Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:20 pm

I think a deal for Oladipo is probably on the horizon. I think it might be better to wait until the trade deadline though. If he can put together a decent stretch at the beginning of next season that will only drive his trade value up.
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Re: It is time... 

Post#54 » by Wizop » Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:16 pm

boomershadow wrote:I think a deal for Oladipo is probably on the horizon. I think it might be better to wait until the trade deadline though. If he can put together a decent stretch at the beginning of next season that will only drive his trade value up.
I don't see a quick deal. I think Vic wants a deal appropriate to his pre injury game and the team will want to see that level again before committing.

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Re: It is time... 

Post#55 » by youngthegiant » Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:33 am

boomershadow wrote:I think a deal for Oladipo is probably on the horizon. I think it might be better to wait until the trade deadline though. If he can put together a decent stretch at the beginning of next season that will only drive his trade value up.
No way that would be a huge mistake. Not even considering the fact next season will be shortened. It's pretty much 1/3 of the season rental if he doesn't re-up. You maybe get a late 1st at that point.
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Re: It is time... 

Post#56 » by boomershadow » Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:45 am

Should have been more specific. Meant trade deal. Not contract extension.
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Re: It is time... 

Post#57 » by Wizop » Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:11 pm

boomershadow wrote:Should have been more specific. Meant trade deal. Not contract extension.


I think trading Vic is a lot more likely than I thought it was a week ago.
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Re: It is time... 

Post#58 » by Wizop » Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:16 pm

boomershadow wrote:Should have been more specific. Meant trade deal. Not contract extension.


I didn't think so a few days ago, but this seems a lot more likely now. reports of lockerroom issues are circulating and if Vic was part of the problem, moving him may be part of the solution. but we don't know who the criticism was leveled at.
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Re: It is time... 

Post#59 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:47 pm

youngthegiant wrote:
boomershadow wrote:I think a deal for Oladipo is probably on the horizon. I think it might be better to wait until the trade deadline though. If he can put together a decent stretch at the beginning of next season that will only drive his trade value up.
No way that would be a huge mistake. Not even considering the fact next season will be shortened. It's pretty much 1/3 of the season rental if he doesn't re-up. You maybe get a late 1st at that point.


But the flip side of that coin is you also won't have teams negotiating against you with "Well, we don't know if the leg will ever return!" Playing well would kill off that argument, and would still provide more value than just "Trade him now for anything!!!"
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Re: It is time... 

Post#60 » by pacers33granger » Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:12 pm

I think Indy fans are jumping the gun a bit with the Vic situation. Yes, we've seen this play out before. Yes, there were some worrying signs during the bubble play. Yes, a lot of things are up in the air, not just with the team, but with the world.

That said, consider the entire situation. Vic still isn't healthy/comfortable. It seems likely he wouldn't have played if he didn't need to in order to secure his money (recall that this was the league saying this, but Indy was willing to pay him if he played or not). We unexpectedly ended up going into the bubble without our best player. Nate's coaching had clearly been an underlying issue for some players. The predictability of the offense combined with Domas being out and Vic not being in game shape caused extremely frustrating offense for fans and the team when it had to go up against a very well coached team that played hard and was more together going into the bubble.

And that's just the immediate life in the bubble stuff that doesn't touch on the craziness of the world right now. Body language is always alarming, but there are a lot of factors at play and none of us know the facts.

While not surprising, the media has been predictably awful throughout this. Vic's motivation to play was questioned. All the talk centered around him playing the team he allegedly wants to go to next year and not the series itself. Now there's rumors about several players being unhappy out of nowhere.

Maybe there's something to it, but it's literally been all people "connecting the dots." Take this tweet from Amick:

Read on Twitter


This appears to be what spurred the "rumblings" about Vic planning on leaving that other people picked up and reported on. For those who don't have access to the actual "story", here's the portion about Vic:

There’s a through line from there to the Victor Oladipo situation too, as the 28-year-old guard is one year away from free agency and rumblings had persisted that he didn’t plan on re-signing with the Pacers. Could playing for a free-wheeling coach like D’Antoni whose style has sparked so many career years for players in the past improve the dynamic here, or might the Pacers trade Oladipo this offseason before he gets a chance with the new coach? The answer, as of now, is unclear.


That's it. So yeah, it's literally nothing but speculation and Amick chose to use a vague tweet to get the clicks on his article (the entire article is short speculative summaries of what he and Hollinger predict).

J. Micheal has been bad with inside stuff on the Pacers lately too. His report that Justin Holiday didn't want to come back and that the locker room was "unhappy" was directly refuted by Holiday himself on Twitter. It seems the media is chomping at the bit to get stories while having less direct access to the teams which has resulted in shoddier and less accurate reporting than usual.

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