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Oladipo Trade Ideas

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Re: Oladipo Trade Ideas 

Post#261 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:00 pm

Topofthekey wrote:Ok, if we do trade Vic for Hayward, I think a decent (and available) replacement for Vic would be Zach Lavine

Yes, I know that his reputation is that he gives up more points than he scores

But his advanced stats tells a more optimistic story

His BPM for '18 is -2.3, which supports the theory that his defense is so bad that he's a nett negative

It improved to 0.8 for '19 though, which is still pretty bad, as he pretty much gives up as many points as he scores

But the interesting thing is, by '20, it has gone up to 2.4, which isn't too bad

For comparison, TJ Warren's BPM went from -0.2 to 1.1 after being traded to us, and we all saw the difference, he actually became good on defense, and was no longer a sieve

However, the more important thing to realize about Lavine is, taken as a whole, his BPM over the last 3 seasons went from -2.3 to 0.8 to 2.4 - it's clearly trending UP

I mean, this could be a fluke, or it could be a sign that he's improving as a player

And since he's quite gettable, maybe we can do something like Warren + Lamb + small incentive for Lavine

That will balance the roster out nicely if we do trade Vic for Hayward



Oladipo doesn’t have the value to net Lavine at this point. You’re going to have to include value like picks and or Holiday/Goga to get chicago to do that right now.
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Re: Oladipo Trade Ideas 

Post#262 » by basketballwacko2 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:08 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Pacersike wrote:
basketballwacko2 wrote:There is no way you can put Westbrook's salary on to our cap. He's getting paid $41 million in 21. He's a great player yes but he sucks up so much of the game that the other guys get left behind unless they are Harden or Durant. I just don't see how you fill out a team with $41 million to one guy, then there's $20m to Brogdon, $18 million to Sabonis, $11 million to warren, that's $90 million to 4 guys.

Houston did it with a $40 M player on their roster, so there definitely is a way.
Ordinary players like McDermott and Lamb barely make a difference for a team, so we can add them to the trade or shed their salary separately and fill the roster with better contracts.

This roster needed Oladipo to become that elite player, without him or without him having a Westbrook like winner mentality, I just don't see us competing with the best teams.


Houston paid a ton of tax over the last decade. We didn’t and likely won’t.


And they won Zero Titles as did the OKC Thunder.
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Re: Oladipo Trade Ideas 

Post#263 » by Pacersike » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:18 am

basketballwacko2 wrote:Houston paid a ton of tax over the last decade. We didn’t and likely won’t.


And they won Zero Titles as did the OKC Thunder.[/quote]
Better for us, cuz Westbrook and his winner mentality sparked Victor as it seems right now. Not enough to keep the fire going, but enough for 1 great season. He will go chasing that ring and do whatever it takes. :)

My biggest concern is probably that the Pacers might not have someone who is mentally and vocally strong enough to keep Russell in check in case he goes triple double chasing again. :P

About the tax. It is unlikely but it would likely only be for 2 years max, when he can opt out. It's not my money, but I highly doubt that a player like Hayward can make us a contender.

I know it's a lot safer(mediocreder) and cheaper, so us following the Hayward route was to be expected.
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Re: Oladipo Trade Ideas 

Post#264 » by Topofthekey » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:17 am

Guys

Assuming that once the season starts, Vic plays like how he played in the last two games in the playoffs against the Heat, and manages to sustain that level of play throughout the season

What do you think we should do with him?

Trade him at the deadline?

Offer him a max contract in free agency?

Look for a S&T during free agency?

Offer him a fair contract, and if another team outbids us then so be it?

I'm actually leaving towards trading him as soon as his trade value has been rehabilitated somewhat. I don't even need good or even equal value in return, I'd settle for something that's decent enough

See, this team needs a direction

I don't want to see the team spending the entire season building an offense revolving around Vic, only to have him leave in free agency, and resetting the team's progress to zero

I'd rather see the team built around who we know are going to be here for the next few seasons - Domas, Brogdon, and Myles

We can't be resetting and overhauling every single season, which was pretty much what we have been doing the last three or four seasons

2018 - PG left, Vic became the surprise alpha of the team
2019 - Vic got injured, Bogie took over as lead scorer
2020 - Vic still injured, Domas took over, three starters got replaced, bench got overhauled
2021 - new head coach, Vic reclaims alpha role?
2022 - Vic leaves via FA, team pivots back to Domas?

You can see how chaotic and lacking in continuity these 5 years look, if things indeed do play out the way described in italics

At some point we have to nail everything down, so that the team can gel and everyone on the roster can actually develop some chemistry and grow as a unit, enough with wasting time waiting for things to settle down

What does everyone think
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Re: Oladipo Trade Ideas 

Post#265 » by OnFire » Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:11 am

Topofthekey wrote:Guys

Assuming that once the season starts, Vic plays like how he played in the last two games in the playoffs against the Heat, and manages to sustain that level of play throughout the season

What do you think we should do with him?

Trade him at the deadline?

Offer him a max contract in free agency?

Look for a S&T during free agency?

Offer him a fair contract, and if another team outbids us then so be it?

I'm actually leaving towards trading him as soon as his trade value has been rehabilitated somewhat. I don't even need good or even equal value in return, I'd settle for something that's decent enough

See, this team needs a direction

I don't want to see the team spending the entire season building an offense revolving around Vic, only to have him leave in free agency, and resetting the team's progress to zero

I'd rather see the team built around who we know are going to be here for the next few seasons - Domas, Brogdon, and Myles

We can't be resetting and overhauling every single season, which was pretty much what we have been doing the last three or four seasons

2018 - PG left, Vic became the surprise alpha of the team
2019 - Vic got injured, Bogie took over as lead scorer
2020 - Vic still injured, Domas took over, three starters got replaced, bench got overhauled
2021 - new head coach, Vic reclaims alpha role?
2022 - Vic leaves via FA, team pivots back to Domas?

You can see how chaotic and lacking in continuity these 5 years look, if things indeed do play out the way described in italics

At some point we have to nail everything down, so that the team can gel and everyone on the roster can actually develop some chemistry and grow as a unit, enough with wasting time waiting for things to settle down

What does everyone think


Pretty much agree that we should move on from Dipo. Whenever that happens, hopefully sooner, is prob best for the reshaping of this team.

From various accounts on media, the web, as well as just a sense of things, it pretty much looks like Domas is the emerging face of the franchise and Brogdon is the locker room leader. That doesn't take away from Vic's (All-Star) status (if he can regain it), but it goes to show that we can survive his departure on and off the court. 8-)
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Re: Oladipo Trade Ideas 

Post#266 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:04 pm

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2919681-inside-the-botched-sign-and-trade-that-could-send-giannis-antetokounmpo-packing

Bleacher Report reporting that the Bucks best offer for Oladipo was Divencenzo/24/George Hill for Oladipo. Would have to imagine that Ersan Ilyasova was in there for salary matching, too.

Pacers All-Star Victor Oladipo was discussed in numerous trade scenarios, sources said, but Indiana ultimately declined Milwaukee's advances. At one point, that included a discussion of Donte DiVincenzo, George Hill and the No. 24 pick in the 2020 draft.
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Re: Oladipo Trade Ideas 

Post#267 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:11 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
We can't be resetting and overhauling every single season, which was pretty much what we have been doing the last three or four seasons

2018 - PG left, Vic became the surprise alpha of the team
2019 - Vic got injured, Bogie took over as lead scorer
2020 - Vic still injured, Domas took over, three starters got replaced, bench got overhauled
2021 - new head coach, Vic reclaims alpha role?
2022 - Vic leaves via FA, team pivots back to Domas?

You can see how chaotic and lacking in continuity these 5 years look, if things indeed do play out the way described in italics

At some point we have to nail everything down, so that the team can gel and everyone on the roster can actually develop some chemistry and grow as a unit, enough with wasting time waiting for things to settle down

What does everyone think


I think you're also kind of calling for that to happen again, though, if you're calling for a midseason trade for Oladipo. Remember, 15 player roster limits are hard in the season (as opposed to 20 in the offseason), so it's harder to make an Oladipo trade as you will have to trade him for players that make essentially the exact same. But, trade Oladipo and you're looking at another major shift again just by doing that.


Ultimately, it seems like Pritchard is keeping the communication open. A lot of openings for Oladipo closed already, especially Miami as they extended Bam already and gave up a ton of their space, along with the emergence of Herro. I also think his antics this offseason have made him less glamorous an option for many teams, too. And maybe he sees an avenue to excel in a Bjorkgren offense that allows free play and many players to be the focus throughout the game, as opposed to McMillan's system that focused on rigidity and players playing defined roles constantly with little stray. To me, pragmatism will rule the day. Oladipo isn't the idealistically perfect leader and star that we hoped for, but that doesn't mean he can't be a long-term fit, too. If we deal him, we're unlikely to get anybody that can fill that role like he hopefully could. And if he's buying in, and allows Brogdon to be the locker room leader, and is willing to share the on court shine with Sabonis and Warren, I think there's chances for this team to excel.
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Re: Oladipo Trade Ideas 

Post#268 » by Wizop » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:00 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:Oladipo isn't the idealistically perfect leader and star that we hoped for, but that doesn't mean he can't be a long-term fit, too.


It's a contract year so he's got a lot of money riding on having a big year.

I caught a little of SiriusXM NBA radio in the car at noon. They were discussing teams that had improved and named what they thought would be the top 7 in the East and left us out completely. Just getting Sabonis back makes us a ton better than our playoff performance and if Oladipo is better . . . still I'm happy to be overlooked.
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Re: Oladipo Trade Ideas 

Post#269 » by Topofthekey » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:51 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2919681-inside-the-botched-sign-and-trade-that-could-send-giannis-antetokounmpo-packing

Bleacher Report reporting that the Bucks best offer for Oladipo was Divencenzo/24/George Hill for Oladipo. Would have to imagine that Ersan Ilyasova was in there for salary matching, too.

Pacers All-Star Victor Oladipo was discussed in numerous trade scenarios, sources said, but Indiana ultimately declined Milwaukee's advances. At one point, that included a discussion of Donte DiVincenzo, George Hill and the No. 24 pick in the 2020 draft.

Should have taken that deal if indeed Bucks offered it
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Re: Oladipo Trade Ideas 

Post#270 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:03 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2919681-inside-the-botched-sign-and-trade-that-could-send-giannis-antetokounmpo-packing

Bleacher Report reporting that the Bucks best offer for Oladipo was Divencenzo/24/George Hill for Oladipo. Would have to imagine that Ersan Ilyasova was in there for salary matching, too.

Pacers All-Star Victor Oladipo was discussed in numerous trade scenarios, sources said, but Indiana ultimately declined Milwaukee's advances. At one point, that included a discussion of Donte DiVincenzo, George Hill and the No. 24 pick in the 2020 draft.

Should have taken that deal if indeed Bucks offered it



If you just want off of Oladipo, absolutely. However, take a look at the draft from 24 to where we drafted at 54. Is there anybody there that helps you? Do you even bring George Hill to camp? Does both Hill and Divincenzo just overload the wings?

Brogdon/Hill/McConnell/Sumner/Lecque
AHill/Divincenzo/Lamb
Warren/McDermott/JHoliday
Turner/Ilyasova/Sampson
Sabonis/Goga

I guess you waive Lecque from there, probably either not re sign Sampson or buyout Ilyasova (who would’ve had his contract guaranteed in the course of the trade) to bring in 24, and then bring in 54 on a 2 way? Is that a deal/roster that makes you better or that just says “we want Oladipo gone and anything else is better”.

I’m not saying we have to keep Oladipo, just, re look at that swap and the roster we would have ended up with, and it’s not really better, in my opinion.
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Re: Oladipo Trade Ideas 

Post#271 » by Topofthekey » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:16 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
We can't be resetting and overhauling every single season, which was pretty much what we have been doing the last three or four seasons

2018 - PG left, Vic became the surprise alpha of the team
2019 - Vic got injured, Bogie took over as lead scorer
2020 - Vic still injured, Domas took over, three starters got replaced, bench got overhauled
2021 - new head coach, Vic reclaims alpha role?
2022 - Vic leaves via FA, team pivots back to Domas?

You can see how chaotic and lacking in continuity these 5 years look, if things indeed do play out the way described in italics

At some point we have to nail everything down, so that the team can gel and everyone on the roster can actually develop some chemistry and grow as a unit, enough with wasting time waiting for things to settle down

What does everyone think


I think you're also kind of calling for that to happen again, though, if you're calling for a midseason trade for Oladipo. Remember, 15 player roster limits are hard in the season (as opposed to 20 in the offseason), so it's harder to make an Oladipo trade as you will have to trade him for players that make essentially the exact same. But, trade Oladipo and you're looking at another major shift again just by doing that.


Ultimately, it seems like Pritchard is keeping the communication open. A lot of openings for Oladipo closed already, especially Miami as they extended Bam already and gave up a ton of their space, along with the emergence of Herro. I also think his antics this offseason have made him less glamorous an option for many teams, too. And maybe he sees an avenue to excel in a Bjorkgren offense that allows free play and many players to be the focus throughout the game, as opposed to McMillan's system that focused on rigidity and players playing defined roles constantly with little stray. To me, pragmatism will rule the day. Oladipo isn't the idealistically perfect leader and star that we hoped for, but that doesn't mean he can't be a long-term fit, too. If we deal him, we're unlikely to get anybody that can fill that role like he hopefully could. And if he's buying in, and allows Brogdon to be the locker room leader, and is willing to share the on court shine with Sabonis and Warren, I think there's chances for this team to excel.

I'm just looking ahead

I think what we saw in the last two games against the Heat is a reasonable projection for Vic's performance in 2021, with some room to grow. That's to say, I think he will be close to his 2018 self; not quite there but close

What do we do in that scenario, at the season's end?

Maxing him out more or less guarantees that he stays, but is that something that we really want to do? It will impact our ability to extend Warren. Aaron, too, will probably need to be paid, though to a lesser extent, once his rookie contract is up

Considering all this, does committing a max contract to a Vic who is not quite his 2018 self make sense?

And if we don't give him the max, and someone else outbids us for him, then what?

Retool the team around Domas, and start the process all over again?

And this is all assuming that Vic has a good year, and is willing to stay

What if he doesn't? What if he wants out anyway?

There's only a very slim and specific path where I see Vic has a place here on the team long term: he turns in a good season, he is willing to accept a reasonable contract, and no one else outbids us for him

Otherwise, most paths lead us back to Domas

And if we know that is likely to be the case, why waste 2021 going through the motions; just build the team around Domas now

The team wasted too much time before moving on from old Nate, it looks like the same mistake might be repeated again with Vic

Of course, I'm happy to be proven wrong. If it so happens that Vic turns in an All NBA season in 2021, and is willing to rebuff other teams and sign with us long term for a reasonable amount, that would be ideal

But right now I'm more in the glass half empty camp
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Re: Oladipo Trade Ideas 

Post#272 » by basketballwacko2 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:11 am

Seems to me we have people here who want a 25 win team really bad! I'm not pointing at anyone in particular, but I hear trade Turner and Warren for Hayward, reminds me of Alex English for a washed up George McGinnis. Trade Victor for a pu pu platter! Trade for the sake of a trade! No thanks!! Why don't we play some games with these guys then see what we have. New coach new approach, stop making assumptions about the team no one here is a "Real" GM.
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Re: Oladipo Trade Ideas 

Post#273 » by Wizop » Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:48 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote: I hear trade Turner and Warren for Hayward, reminds me of Alex English for a washed up George McGinnis.
The English trade was one of the worst ever. It's worth noting that it was a late season trade made for a playoff push. Also the Denver exec who made the deal from the other side was our very own Donnie Walsh.
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Re: Oladipo Trade Ideas 

Post#274 » by Scoot McGroot » Yesterday 10:02 pm

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