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Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture

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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#41 » by Wizop » Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:01 pm

8305 wrote:He is the X factor to the season. As long as he can’t go team is a little more tied to a lineup that pairs Turner and Sabonis.


I agree he's an X factor but disagree about him playing at the 4.

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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#42 » by Tom White » Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:56 pm

8305 wrote: As long as he can’t go team is a little more tied to a lineup that pairs Turner and Sabonis. I have seen no evidence that this will work any better than in the past.


Sometimes I think people just don't like the idea of this, as opposed to looking at the results of this and what the realistic options to it might be. Is it because they are told that in "today's NBA" it won't work? I have to think that is some of it.
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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#43 » by Pacers Forever » Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:55 pm

I’m thinking the Turner/Sabonis pairing as new as it is will evolve into a good thing this year with Turner trying to be more involved in the offense side of the game. If it’s not working then I feel Carlisle with split their time more overlapping their minutes. I feel like everything the Pacers do this year is a clean slate under Carlisle and he’s good enough to adapt quickly to change things not working out. I expect a lot of experimentation to find out how to get wins in this very tough situation they face this season with the injuries and in my perception a step backwards in talent vs more teams in the league.
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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#44 » by Wizop » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:03 pm

Cavs played 3 bigs last night.

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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#45 » by Pacers Forever » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:16 pm

We all know that the Pacers need to improve rebounding so a 2 big lineup might be the normal this year. However, if they can’t learn to guard the 3 point line better there won’t be many rebounds available :cry:
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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#46 » by 8305 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:43 am

Topofthekey wrote:
8305 wrote:He is the X factor to the season. As long as he can’t go team is a little more tied to a lineup that pairs Turner and Sabonis. I have seen no evidence that this will work any better than in the past. When the the Sabonis/Turner pairing is off the floor it’s either Jackson (19 year old rookie) or Brissett (unimpressive in summer league and pre season).

How long till he can play and how long till he is in plying shape? We could be half way through the season before we see any sembelence of the guy we remember.

Can you elaborate a little bit more on why you think the Myles and Domas pairing doesn't work?

I haven't watched the team extensively this season, but from what I can gather from watching clips here and there, they don't stand out as a problen to me


Watching the Memphis game Pacers were playing subs. Even in those circumstances there was no competitive advantage delivered by the Turner/Sabonis pairing. Things improved in this game when Turner left the floor and Brissett was subbed in. Struck me as the same old same old. Pairing these two together exposes Sabonis biggest weakness as a defender and limits Turner offensively.
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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#47 » by Topofthekey » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:50 pm

8305 wrote:Watching the Memphis game Pacers were playing subs. Even in those circumstances there was no competitive advantage delivered by the Turner/Sabonis pairing. Things improved in this game when Turner left the floor and Brissett was subbed in. Struck me as the same old same old. Pairing these two together exposes Sabonis biggest weakness as a defender and limits Turner offensively.

Who between them would you trade?

Who or what would you trade him for?
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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#48 » by 8305 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:43 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
8305 wrote:Watching the Memphis game Pacers were playing subs. Even in those circumstances there was no competitive advantage delivered by the Turner/Sabonis pairing. Things improved in this game when Turner left the floor and Brissett was subbed in. Struck me as the same old same old. Pairing these two together exposes Sabonis biggest weakness as a defender and limits Turner offensively.

Who between them would you trade?

Who or what would you trade him for?


I've bounced back and forth on the question of which one to trade. Pre draft I was leaning Sabonis but after seeing Duarte and Jackson (I think both of these guys look like they could be really good complimentary players to Sabonis) I'd say Turner is the one to move.

I think most of us agree that Turner is the easier on to trade. A decent straight up move that's strikes me reasonable value to both teams is:
Myles Turner for Jerami Grant.
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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#49 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:01 pm

8305 wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
8305 wrote:Watching the Memphis game Pacers were playing subs. Even in those circumstances there was no competitive advantage delivered by the Turner/Sabonis pairing. Things improved in this game when Turner left the floor and Brissett was subbed in. Struck me as the same old same old. Pairing these two together exposes Sabonis biggest weakness as a defender and limits Turner offensively.

Who between them would you trade?

Who or what would you trade him for?


I've bounced back and forth on the question of which one to trade. Pre draft I was leaning Sabonis but after seeing Duarte and Jackson (I think both of these guys look like they could be really good complimentary players to Sabonis) I'd say Turner is the one to move.

I think most of us agree that Turner is the easier on to trade. A decent straight up move that's strikes me reasonable value to both teams is:
Myles Turner for Jerami Grant.


Take a look at Jerami Grant's splits last year. He started out really hot for about 15-20 games, and then as the season went on, he took the ball more (his usage rate skyrocketed) and he got WILDLY inefficient. His defense also suffered greatly as his usage skyrocketed. He had a hot streak to start the season last year that we all remember, but we didn't notice how he played pretty poorly overall (when accounting for efficiency and defense) over the whole season on average. He got a ton of shots, because they had no one else to take any last year, and he largely did little with them, on average.

And, if you swap those guys straight up, you'd put Indy within $1m of the luxury tax again, meaning Warren or Sabonis bonuses would put us into the tax. I don't see it as a terribly good deal for Indy, other than buying high on a guy that may be a more natural PF, but a much lesser player.

I LOVE Turner. As a player and as a person. But, I would probably be ok with moving him, seeing as how I think that Goga/Jackson could somewhat reasonably replace his rim protection and overall defense.
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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#50 » by Topofthekey » Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:29 pm

8305 wrote:I think most of us agree that Turner is the easier on to trade.

I think it depends on what our asking price for him is

If we're willing to trade him for a role player, then yes he's probably very easy to trade

But I'm not willing to trade Myles for a lesser player just for the sake of fit


A decent straight up move that's strikes me reasonable value to both teams is:
Myles Turner for Jerami Grant.

I think that's quite terrible for the Pacers, really

Defensively, Myles is lightyears ahead of Grant

Offensively, Grant averaged more PPG than Myles, but he did it on a bad team

Grant isn't an elite go-to scorer. He's the type of player who should be the 3rd or 4th scoring option for a winning team, and we already have an overabundance of those

The only argument I can see for this trade is Grant is a more natural PF than Myles

I don't think Pacers is at a situation where they should be sacrificing talent for fit
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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#51 » by Topofthekey » Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:43 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:I LOVE Turner. As a player and as a person. But, I would probably be ok with moving him, seeing as how I think that Goga/Jackson could somewhat reasonably replace his rim protection and overall defense.

This is my sentiment as well

On court, the time has probably come to explore a trade for Myles, contingent on the continued development of Goga and Jackson

It's the off court part that makes me reluctant to trade Myles. To me, he's the best Pacer currently, by a wide margin. If they do trade him, I hope they either trade him to the Mavericks (it's home for him?) or to the Warriors where he'll get a good shot at winning a title with them
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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#52 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:03 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:I LOVE Turner. As a player and as a person. But, I would probably be ok with moving him, seeing as how I think that Goga/Jackson could somewhat reasonably replace his rim protection and overall defense.

This is my sentiment as well

On court, the time has probably come to explore a trade for Myles, contingent on the continued development of Goga and Jackson

It's the off court part that makes me reluctant to trade Myles. To me, he's the best Pacer currently, by a wide margin. If they do trade him, I hope they either trade him to the Mavericks (it's home for him?) or to the Warriors where he'll get a good shot at winning a title with them



Exactly. He’s 100% a guy that can be supported by fans. He’s a good dude, that does good work, and has done nothing but respect the franchise.
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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#53 » by Wizop » Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:50 pm

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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#54 » by 8305 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:15 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
8305 wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:Who between them would you trade?

Who or what would you trade him for?


I've bounced back and forth on the question of which one to trade. Pre draft I was leaning Sabonis but after seeing Duarte and Jackson (I think both of these guys look like they could be really good complimentary players to Sabonis) I'd say Turner is the one to move.

I think most of us agree that Turner is the easier on to trade. A decent straight up move that's strikes me reasonable value to both teams is:
Myles Turner for Jerami Grant.


Take a look at Jerami Grant's splits last year. He started out really hot for about 15-20 games, and then as the season went on, he took the ball more (his usage rate skyrocketed) and he got WILDLY inefficient. His defense also suffered greatly as his usage skyrocketed. He had a hot streak to start the season last year that we all remember, but we didn't notice how he played pretty poorly overall (when accounting for efficiency and defense) over the whole season on average. He got a ton of shots, because they had no one else to take any last year, and he largely did little with them, on average.

And, if you swap those guys straight up, you'd put Indy within $1m of the luxury tax again, meaning Warren or Sabonis bonuses would put us into the tax. I don't see it as a terribly good deal for Indy, other than buying high on a guy that may be a more natural PF, but a much lesser player.

I LOVE Turner. As a player and as a person. But, I would probably be ok with moving him, seeing as how I think that Goga/Jackson could somewhat reasonably replace his rim protection and overall defense.


I agree Grant is not a high usage guy. He wouldn’t be that here. Myles is a rim protector Grant is not. But Grant would mesh with Sabonis better. I’d contend we would be a better defensive team Sabonis at the five and good on ball defenders around him than we are with Turner at the five and Sabonis defending the perimeter. On offense they both would largely be stretch guys. Not much change subbing one for the other.
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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#55 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:01 am

8305 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
8305 wrote:
I've bounced back and forth on the question of which one to trade. Pre draft I was leaning Sabonis but after seeing Duarte and Jackson (I think both of these guys look like they could be really good complimentary players to Sabonis) I'd say Turner is the one to move.

I think most of us agree that Turner is the easier on to trade. A decent straight up move that's strikes me reasonable value to both teams is:
Myles Turner for Jerami Grant.


Take a look at Jerami Grant's splits last year. He started out really hot for about 15-20 games, and then as the season went on, he took the ball more (his usage rate skyrocketed) and he got WILDLY inefficient. His defense also suffered greatly as his usage skyrocketed. He had a hot streak to start the season last year that we all remember, but we didn't notice how he played pretty poorly overall (when accounting for efficiency and defense) over the whole season on average. He got a ton of shots, because they had no one else to take any last year, and he largely did little with them, on average.

And, if you swap those guys straight up, you'd put Indy within $1m of the luxury tax again, meaning Warren or Sabonis bonuses would put us into the tax. I don't see it as a terribly good deal for Indy, other than buying high on a guy that may be a more natural PF, but a much lesser player.

I LOVE Turner. As a player and as a person. But, I would probably be ok with moving him, seeing as how I think that Goga/Jackson could somewhat reasonably replace his rim protection and overall defense.


I agree Grant is not a high usage guy. He wouldn’t be that here. Myles is a rim protector Grant is not. But Grant would mesh with Sabonis better. I’d contend we would be a better defensive team Sabonis at the five and good on ball defenders around him than we are with Turner at the five and Sabonis defending the perimeter. On offense they both would largely be stretch guys. Not much change subbing one for the other.


So, turn Grant back into the low usage, 25-30 minute per game guy that was asked to focus on defense only and put up around 14/5/1/1/1? Basically, a lesser player than Turner, but maybe better fit, and more expensive? I can live with that swap, but you should make sure you get paid with other assets for downgrading, getting older, and getting more expensive.
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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#56 » by Topofthekey » Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:45 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
8305 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Take a look at Jerami Grant's splits last year. He started out really hot for about 15-20 games, and then as the season went on, he took the ball more (his usage rate skyrocketed) and he got WILDLY inefficient. His defense also suffered greatly as his usage skyrocketed. He had a hot streak to start the season last year that we all remember, but we didn't notice how he played pretty poorly overall (when accounting for efficiency and defense) over the whole season on average. He got a ton of shots, because they had no one else to take any last year, and he largely did little with them, on average.

And, if you swap those guys straight up, you'd put Indy within $1m of the luxury tax again, meaning Warren or Sabonis bonuses would put us into the tax. I don't see it as a terribly good deal for Indy, other than buying high on a guy that may be a more natural PF, but a much lesser player.

I LOVE Turner. As a player and as a person. But, I would probably be ok with moving him, seeing as how I think that Goga/Jackson could somewhat reasonably replace his rim protection and overall defense.


I agree Grant is not a high usage guy. He wouldn’t be that here. Myles is a rim protector Grant is not. But Grant would mesh with Sabonis better. I’d contend we would be a better defensive team Sabonis at the five and good on ball defenders around him than we are with Turner at the five and Sabonis defending the perimeter. On offense they both would largely be stretch guys. Not much change subbing one for the other.


So, turn Grant back into the low usage, 25-30 minute per game guy that was asked to focus on defense only and put up around 14/5/1/1/1? Basically, a lesser player than Turner, but maybe better fit, and more expensive? I can live with that swap, but you should make sure you get paid with other assets for downgrading, getting older, and getting more expensive.

If that is the goal, why not just move Warren to PF?

I'm quite sure Warren is more than capable of being a 14/5/1/1/1 guy, and we don't even have to trade Myles

I think 8305's idea of trading Myles for a role player for the sake of better fit doesn't look like the best of decisions
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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#57 » by 8305 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:31 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
8305 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Take a look at Jerami Grant's splits last year. He started out really hot for about 15-20 games, and then as the season went on, he took the ball more (his usage rate skyrocketed) and he got WILDLY inefficient. His defense also suffered greatly as his usage skyrocketed. He had a hot streak to start the season last year that we all remember, but we didn't notice how he played pretty poorly overall (when accounting for efficiency and defense) over the whole season on average. He got a ton of shots, because they had no one else to take any last year, and he largely did little with them, on average.

And, if you swap those guys straight up, you'd put Indy within $1m of the luxury tax again, meaning Warren or Sabonis bonuses would put us into the tax. I don't see it as a terribly good deal for Indy, other than buying high on a guy that may be a more natural PF, but a much lesser player.

I LOVE Turner. As a player and as a person. But, I would probably be ok with moving him, seeing as how I think that Goga/Jackson could somewhat reasonably replace his rim protection and overall defense.


I agree Grant is not a high usage guy. He wouldn’t be that here. Myles is a rim protector Grant is not. But Grant would mesh with Sabonis better. I’d contend we would be a better defensive team Sabonis at the five and good on ball defenders around him than we are with Turner at the five and Sabonis defending the perimeter. On offense they both would largely be stretch guys. Not much change subbing one for the other.


So, turn Grant back into the low usage, 25-30 minute per game guy that was asked to focus on defense only and put up around 14/5/1/1/1? Basically, a lesser player than Turner, but maybe better fit, and more expensive? I can live with that swap, but you should make sure you get paid with other assets for downgrading, getting older, and getting more expensive.


A better fit could be played more minutes. Look at the minutes Thad got. They love this guy in Detroit. I doubt you get a lot more than him in return for Turner. As for the age difference I see little chance of resigning Turner if we are using him as a spot player. Which i think is what you see for him.
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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#58 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:34 pm

8305 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
8305 wrote:
I agree Grant is not a high usage guy. He wouldn’t be that here. Myles is a rim protector Grant is not. But Grant would mesh with Sabonis better. I’d contend we would be a better defensive team Sabonis at the five and good on ball defenders around him than we are with Turner at the five and Sabonis defending the perimeter. On offense they both would largely be stretch guys. Not much change subbing one for the other.


So, turn Grant back into the low usage, 25-30 minute per game guy that was asked to focus on defense only and put up around 14/5/1/1/1? Basically, a lesser player than Turner, but maybe better fit, and more expensive? I can live with that swap, but you should make sure you get paid with other assets for downgrading, getting older, and getting more expensive.


A better fit could be played more minutes. Look at the minutes Thad got.


Thad played 30-32 minutes per night in Indy. Myles plays an average of 29.7 minutes per night in his Indy career (minus his rookie year when guys generally don't play a lot because they're rookies). It's largely the same. I don't think there's an argument that a better fit could be played more minutes. It's already being done.

They love this guy in Detroit. I doubt you get a lot more than him in return for Turner. As for the age difference I see little chance of resigning Turner if we are using him as a spot player. Which i think is what you see for him.


They love him in Detroit because he wanted to sign there since they had a black coach and a black GM, and they offered to run the offense through him. None of that would be the case in Indy. If you take a look at the Trade Forum when this was suggested (by you? or someone else?) in the last couple weeks, there was a bit of a shock there, and the belief that Turner was simply worth much more than Grant.

Again, I like Grant. I wanted him a lot before last year (and before I thought he'd take $20+m per year to sign). But the hot shooting, efficient player that he was in the first 15-20 games last year is not who he really is.
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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#59 » by Tom White » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:00 pm

8305 wrote:As for the age difference I see little chance of resigning Turner if we are using him as a spot player. Which i think is what you see for him.


So, Turner is going to go from a 30 minutes a game player to being a "spot player"? Previously you've said the team should play Sabonis at the 5 and surround him with four defensive players (excluding Turner) because playing him at the 4 with Turner exposed Sabo's weakness as a perimeter defender. That's Sabonis' problem, not Turner's problem. Then proposing getting Grant and talking about Thad as if they are cures?

How about this. Just make a post saying you don't like Turner and let it go at that?
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Re: Update: TJ Warren still out After Foot Fracture 

Post#60 » by 8305 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:10 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
8305 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
So, turn Grant back into the low usage, 25-30 minute per game guy that was asked to focus on defense only and put up around 14/5/1/1/1? Basically, a lesser player than Turner, but maybe better fit, and more expensive? I can live with that swap, but you should make sure you get paid with other assets for downgrading, getting older, and getting more expensive.


A better fit could be played more minutes. Look at the minutes Thad got.


Thad played 30-32 minutes per night in Indy. Myles plays an average of 29.7 minutes per night in his Indy career (minus his rookie year when guys generally don't play a lot because they're rookies). It's largely the same. I don't think there's an argument that a better fit could be played more minutes. It's already being done.

They love this guy in Detroit. I doubt you get a lot more than him in return for Turner. As for the age difference I see little chance of resigning Turner if we are using him as a spot player. Which i think is what you see for him.


They love him in Detroit because he wanted to sign there since they had a black coach and a black GM, and they offered to run the offense through him. None of that would be the case in Indy. If you take a look at the Trade Forum when this was suggested (by you? or someone else?) in the last couple weeks, there was a bit of a shock there, and the belief that Turner was simply worth much more than Grant.

Again, I like Grant. I wanted him a lot before last year (and before I thought he'd take $20+m per year to sign). But the hot shooting, efficient player that he was in the first 15-20 games last year is not who he really is.


I don't think you could get the Grant of the first 15-20 games for Turner. I've suggested this trade before but not recently. My recall was Detroit people thought I'd valued Turner too high Pacers fans the opposite.

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