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Pacers Odds and Ends

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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#121 » by Topofthekey » Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:16 am

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Never thought something as trivial as whether they get music at practice or not to be a barometer of whether a coach gains the approval of his players or not
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#122 » by Wizop » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:45 pm

Topofthekey wrote:Never thought something as trivial as whether they get music at practice or not to be a barometer of whether a coach gains the approval of his players or not


Music at practice is a sign of the coach listening to the players. You are right that the music itself is trivial, but whether the coach refuses to accept a trivial request is not.

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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#123 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:07 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
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Never thought something as trivial as whether they get music at practice or not to be a barometer of whether a coach gains the approval of his players or not


Honestly, it’s one of the simplest, yet best, management skill possible. As a manager, let the staff choose the music. Huge morale booster and shows you’re willing to yield a little bit.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#124 » by Topofthekey » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:20 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
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Never thought something as trivial as whether they get music at practice or not to be a barometer of whether a coach gains the approval of his players or not


Honestly, it’s one of the simplest, yet best, management skill possible. As a manager, let the staff choose the music. Huge morale booster and shows you’re willing to yield a little bit.

Very true indeed

I'm just surprised staffs actually find that meaningful

If I were the staff, I'd want the ability to make actual, practical decisions, like when to be able to come in to work late or leave work early for example, rather than the illusion of making decisions, like what music do we play at work

But yes, I can see how something like choice of music, even though it is lacking in practical value (to me at least), can become a thing that is meaningful to people

Managing people is an art indeed
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#125 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:44 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:Never thought something as trivial as whether they get music at practice or not to be a barometer of whether a coach gains the approval of his players or not


Honestly, it’s one of the simplest, yet best, management skill possible. As a manager, let the staff choose the music. Huge morale booster and shows you’re willing to yield a little bit.

Very true indeed

I'm just surprised staffs actually find that meaningful

If I were the staff, I'd want the ability to make actual, practical decisions, like when to be able to come in to work late or leave work early for example, rather than the illusion of making decisions, like what music do we play at work

But yes, I can see how something like choice of music, even though it is lacking in practical value (to me at least), can become a thing that is meaningful to people

Managing people is an art indeed


Sure. When to come in and when to leave matter too, but if you are to spend 8-10 hours on the job anyway, wouldn’t your own choice of music make it better than listening to the bosses choice, or elevator music? It’s super low stakes for an employer, but greatly affects the day to day of the people putting the work in...if that makes sense.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#126 » by Topofthekey » Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:23 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Honestly, it’s one of the simplest, yet best, management skill possible. As a manager, let the staff choose the music. Huge morale booster and shows you’re willing to yield a little bit.

Very true indeed

I'm just surprised staffs actually find that meaningful

If I were the staff, I'd want the ability to make actual, practical decisions, like when to be able to come in to work late or leave work early for example, rather than the illusion of making decisions, like what music do we play at work

But yes, I can see how something like choice of music, even though it is lacking in practical value (to me at least), can become a thing that is meaningful to people

Managing people is an art indeed


Sure. When to come in and when to leave matter too, but if you are to spend 8-10 hours on the job anyway, wouldn’t your own choice of music make it better than listening to the bosses choice, or elevator music? It’s super low stakes for an employer, but greatly affects the day to day of the people putting the work in...if that makes sense.

I'm still amazed by how things went from Pacers having the best locker room in the league during Oladipo's debut season, to how some players were almost ready for an open revolt against old Nate last season, what a dramatic turn
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#127 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:43 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:Very true indeed

I'm just surprised staffs actually find that meaningful

If I were the staff, I'd want the ability to make actual, practical decisions, like when to be able to come in to work late or leave work early for example, rather than the illusion of making decisions, like what music do we play at work

But yes, I can see how something like choice of music, even though it is lacking in practical value (to me at least), can become a thing that is meaningful to people

Managing people is an art indeed


Sure. When to come in and when to leave matter too, but if you are to spend 8-10 hours on the job anyway, wouldn’t your own choice of music make it better than listening to the bosses choice, or elevator music? It’s super low stakes for an employer, but greatly affects the day to day of the people putting the work in...if that makes sense.

I'm still amazed by how things went from Pacers having the best locker room in the league during Oladipo's debut season, to how some players were almost ready for an open revolt against old Nate last season, what a dramatic turn



Guessing that Thad and Collison carried a lot of that weight. :dontknow:
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#128 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:27 pm

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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#129 » by Pacers Forever » Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:43 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
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Bring it Dipo. Hope he shoots as bad as he has been and creates a few turnovers in our favor :lol:
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#130 » by boomershadow » Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:20 pm

Looks like we are neck and neck with Miami in the standings. Pacers beat the Heat twice in a row not long ago, so I'm hoping for good things.

If we beat them in Oladipo's debut, that would be even sweeter.

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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#131 » by Topofthekey » Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:44 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Sure. When to come in and when to leave matter too, but if you are to spend 8-10 hours on the job anyway, wouldn’t your own choice of music make it better than listening to the bosses choice, or elevator music? It’s super low stakes for an employer, but greatly affects the day to day of the people putting the work in...if that makes sense.

I'm still amazed by how things went from Pacers having the best locker room in the league during Oladipo's debut season, to how some players were almost ready for an open revolt against old Nate last season, what a dramatic turn



Guessing that Thad and Collison carried a lot of that weight. :dontknow:

Sure makes one wonder if signing Lamb instead of Thad in 2019 wasn't a mistake

Sure, Thad makes about $3m more per year than Lamb, but we do have the room to absorb that difference and still stay under the tax

Imagine if we had Thad instead of Lamb on the roster now

I also wonder if the way Thad's free agency was handled had any impact on the morale of the rest of the team

Thad was basically asking to be re-signed, yet the team chose to sign Lamb instead

Not saying that I dislike Lamb, on the contrary I like him, it just feel like signing Lamb over Thad was a mistake
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#132 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:28 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:I'm still amazed by how things went from Pacers having the best locker room in the league during Oladipo's debut season, to how some players were almost ready for an open revolt against old Nate last season, what a dramatic turn



Guessing that Thad and Collison carried a lot of that weight. :dontknow:

Sure makes one wonder if signing Lamb instead of Thad in 2019 wasn't a mistake

Sure, Thad makes about $3m more per year than Lamb, but we do have the room to absorb that difference and still stay under the tax

Imagine if we had Thad instead of Lamb on the roster now

I also wonder if the way Thad's free agency was handled had any impact on the morale of the rest of the team

Thad was basically asking to be re-signed, yet the team chose to sign Lamb instead

Not saying that I dislike Lamb, on the contrary I like him, it just feel like signing Lamb over Thad was a mistake



We chose Lamb and McConnell over Thad or Lamb and Justin over Thad. It couldn’t have been one for one due to our salaries constraints that offseason.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#133 » by Topofthekey » Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:01 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:

Guessing that Thad and Collison carried a lot of that weight. :dontknow:

Sure makes one wonder if signing Lamb instead of Thad in 2019 wasn't a mistake

Sure, Thad makes about $3m more per year than Lamb, but we do have the room to absorb that difference and still stay under the tax

Imagine if we had Thad instead of Lamb on the roster now

I also wonder if the way Thad's free agency was handled had any impact on the morale of the rest of the team

Thad was basically asking to be re-signed, yet the team chose to sign Lamb instead

Not saying that I dislike Lamb, on the contrary I like him, it just feel like signing Lamb over Thad was a mistake



We chose Lamb and McConnell over Thad or Lamb and Justin over Thad. It couldn’t have been one for one due to our salaries constraints that offseason.

The difference between Lamb and That's was $3m

It shouldn't be that difficult to scrounge up that amount

For example, they could have not signed Jakaar Sampson, and not picked up the 2nd year of Alize's contract

Pretty sure there were other moves they could have done to free up $3m in cap space, if they wanted to sign Thad at $13m instead of Lamb at $10m

Thad looks like the perfect backup big off the bench of the team right now, but of course hindsight is 20/20
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#134 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:04 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:Sure makes one wonder if signing Lamb instead of Thad in 2019 wasn't a mistake

Sure, Thad makes about $3m more per year than Lamb, but we do have the room to absorb that difference and still stay under the tax

Imagine if we had Thad instead of Lamb on the roster now

I also wonder if the way Thad's free agency was handled had any impact on the morale of the rest of the team

Thad was basically asking to be re-signed, yet the team chose to sign Lamb instead

Not saying that I dislike Lamb, on the contrary I like him, it just feel like signing Lamb over Thad was a mistake



We chose Lamb and McConnell over Thad or Lamb and Justin over Thad. It couldn’t have been one for one due to our salaries constraints that offseason.

The difference between Lamb and That's was $3m

It shouldn't be that difficult to scrounge up that amount

For example, they could have not signed Jakaar Sampson, and not picked up the 2nd year of Alize's contract

Pretty sure there were other moves they could have done to free up $3m in cap space, if they wanted to sign Thad at $13m instead of Lamb at $10m

Thad looks like the perfect backup big off the bench of the team right now, but of course hindsight is 20/20


$3.5m that offseason, and we used every dime of cap space that summer. Luxury tax wasn’t an issue that summer. Cap space was an issue. Sampson signed for a veteran’s minimum, so he didn’t impact cap space at all. Alize would have only saved us a couple hundred thousand dollars (waiving his non-guarantee but then having it replaced with a minimum roster charge via the CBA until someone was signed).

Ultimately, we spent our cap space on Brogdon, Lamb, and TJ McConnell, using up essentially every dime we had. We then used the room exception on Justin Holiday. For Thad to be re-signed, we definitely would not have signed Lamb/McConnell or Lamb/Holiday, or Lamb and gotten Brogdon to somehow sign here for about $4m less in the first year, which would have brought his overall pay down around $20m total. I doubt he would’ve signed for that.

So, it’s not just a Thad vs. Lamb. It’s a Thad vs. Lamb and McConnell or Lamb and Holiday (as we could’ve theoretically signed McConnell with the room exception we used to sign Justin (but not vice versa, as the room exception that Justin got was more than the remaining cap space we had to sign TJ with).
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#135 » by Topofthekey » Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:30 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:

We chose Lamb and McConnell over Thad or Lamb and Justin over Thad. It couldn’t have been one for one due to our salaries constraints that offseason.

The difference between Lamb and That's was $3m

It shouldn't be that difficult to scrounge up that amount

For example, they could have not signed Jakaar Sampson, and not picked up the 2nd year of Alize's contract

Pretty sure there were other moves they could have done to free up $3m in cap space, if they wanted to sign Thad at $13m instead of Lamb at $10m

Thad looks like the perfect backup big off the bench of the team right now, but of course hindsight is 20/20


$3.5m that offseason, and we used every dime of cap space that summer. Luxury tax wasn’t an issue that summer. Cap space was an issue. Sampson signed for a veteran’s minimum, so he didn’t impact cap space at all. Alize would have only saved us a couple hundred thousand dollars (waiving his non-guarantee but then having it replaced with a minimum roster charge via the CBA until someone was signed).

Ultimately, we spent our cap space on Brogdon, Lamb, and TJ McConnell, using up essentially every dime we had. We then used the room exception on Justin Holiday. For Thad to be re-signed, we definitely would not have signed Lamb/McConnell or Lamb/Holiday, or Lamb and gotten Brogdon to somehow sign here for about $4m less in the first year, which would have brought his overall pay down around $20m total. I doubt he would’ve signed for that.

So, it’s not just a Thad vs. Lamb. It’s a Thad vs. Lamb and McConnell or Lamb and Holiday (as we could’ve theoretically signed McConnell with the room exception we used to sign Justin (but not vice versa, as the room exception that Justin got was more than the remaining cap space we had to sign TJ with).

So would you trade Lamb and TJ for Thad, assuming Bulls had offered the swap

TJ has been great, but I definitely would have taken Thad for Lamb and TJ, because Thad's exactly the kind of backup forward and veteran presence that the team needs

As I said though, hindsight is 20/20, so it's not like they can be blamed for choosing the path they chose

But it definitely looks like they should have re-signed Thad, especially with him being vocal about wanting to remain in Indiana
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#136 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:00 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:The difference between Lamb and That's was $3m

It shouldn't be that difficult to scrounge up that amount

For example, they could have not signed Jakaar Sampson, and not picked up the 2nd year of Alize's contract

Pretty sure there were other moves they could have done to free up $3m in cap space, if they wanted to sign Thad at $13m instead of Lamb at $10m

Thad looks like the perfect backup big off the bench of the team right now, but of course hindsight is 20/20


$3.5m that offseason, and we used every dime of cap space that summer. Luxury tax wasn’t an issue that summer. Cap space was an issue. Sampson signed for a veteran’s minimum, so he didn’t impact cap space at all. Alize would have only saved us a couple hundred thousand dollars (waiving his non-guarantee but then having it replaced with a minimum roster charge via the CBA until someone was signed).

Ultimately, we spent our cap space on Brogdon, Lamb, and TJ McConnell, using up essentially every dime we had. We then used the room exception on Justin Holiday. For Thad to be re-signed, we definitely would not have signed Lamb/McConnell or Lamb/Holiday, or Lamb and gotten Brogdon to somehow sign here for about $4m less in the first year, which would have brought his overall pay down around $20m total. I doubt he would’ve signed for that.

So, it’s not just a Thad vs. Lamb. It’s a Thad vs. Lamb and McConnell or Lamb and Holiday (as we could’ve theoretically signed McConnell with the room exception we used to sign Justin (but not vice versa, as the room exception that Justin got was more than the remaining cap space we had to sign TJ with).

So would you trade Lamb and TJ for Thad, assuming Bulls had offered the swap

TJ has been great, but I definitely would have taken Thad for Lamb and TJ, because Thad's exactly the kind of backup forward and veteran presence that the team needs

As I said though, hindsight is 20/20, so it's not like they can be blamed for choosing the path they chose

But it definitely looks like they should have re-signed Thad, especially with him being vocal about wanting to remain in Indiana



What I would do doesn’t matter, and I suspect it’s the opposite of how the front office feels.

At the time, the issue wasn’t just money with Thad. It was a starting position, or the chance to earn it. We told him straight up he was going to come off the bench because of Sabonis earning a promotion, and we told him we were only willing to give him a 2 year deal. He went to Chicago for a chance to start, more money, and a partially guaranteed 3rd year on top of those two things. He was one of the first free agents off the board that offseason.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#137 » by Wizop » Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:39 pm

Length of contract for an older player was a big issue if contemporaneous reports are believed.

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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#138 » by Topofthekey » Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:46 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
$3.5m that offseason, and we used every dime of cap space that summer. Luxury tax wasn’t an issue that summer. Cap space was an issue. Sampson signed for a veteran’s minimum, so he didn’t impact cap space at all. Alize would have only saved us a couple hundred thousand dollars (waiving his non-guarantee but then having it replaced with a minimum roster charge via the CBA until someone was signed).

Ultimately, we spent our cap space on Brogdon, Lamb, and TJ McConnell, using up essentially every dime we had. We then used the room exception on Justin Holiday. For Thad to be re-signed, we definitely would not have signed Lamb/McConnell or Lamb/Holiday, or Lamb and gotten Brogdon to somehow sign here for about $4m less in the first year, which would have brought his overall pay down around $20m total. I doubt he would’ve signed for that.

So, it’s not just a Thad vs. Lamb. It’s a Thad vs. Lamb and McConnell or Lamb and Holiday (as we could’ve theoretically signed McConnell with the room exception we used to sign Justin (but not vice versa, as the room exception that Justin got was more than the remaining cap space we had to sign TJ with).

So would you trade Lamb and TJ for Thad, assuming Bulls had offered the swap

TJ has been great, but I definitely would have taken Thad for Lamb and TJ, because Thad's exactly the kind of backup forward and veteran presence that the team needs

As I said though, hindsight is 20/20, so it's not like they can be blamed for choosing the path they chose

But it definitely looks like they should have re-signed Thad, especially with him being vocal about wanting to remain in Indiana



What I would do doesn’t matter, and I suspect it’s the opposite of how the front office feels.

At the time, the issue wasn’t just money with Thad. It was a starting position, or the chance to earn it. We told him straight up he was going to come off the bench because of Sabonis earning a promotion, and we told him we were only willing to give him a 2 year deal. He went to Chicago for a chance to start, more money, and a partially guaranteed 3rd year on top of those two things. He was one of the first free agents off the board that offseason.

This is where I am saying, in hindsight, they should have given him the money and the 3rd year

They ended up giving Lamb a 3 year deal anyway, so now we have Lamb instead of Thad

Yes, even if that meant we couldn't have signed TJ, because right now I'd rather have Thad instead of Lamb and TJ

As for the starting job, I'm not sure that was even a factor

Like you said, he must have known that we wanted to start Sabonis, yet he made it known that he wanted to be back

He only started 16 out of 64 games he played in his first season with the Bulls anyway, so it's not like they gave him a job as a starter either
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#139 » by Topofthekey » Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:49 am

Wizop wrote:Length of contract for an older player was a big issue if contemporaneous reports are believed.

Sent from my phone.

Yes, they probably thought Thad wasn't going to be worth his contract, but he's proving them wrong so far

Still one more year to go though. Who knows, Thad might turn out to be completely terrible next year
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#140 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:53 am

Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:So would you trade Lamb and TJ for Thad, assuming Bulls had offered the swap

TJ has been great, but I definitely would have taken Thad for Lamb and TJ, because Thad's exactly the kind of backup forward and veteran presence that the team needs

As I said though, hindsight is 20/20, so it's not like they can be blamed for choosing the path they chose

But it definitely looks like they should have re-signed Thad, especially with him being vocal about wanting to remain in Indiana



What I would do doesn’t matter, and I suspect it’s the opposite of how the front office feels.

At the time, the issue wasn’t just money with Thad. It was a starting position, or the chance to earn it. We told him straight up he was going to come off the bench because of Sabonis earning a promotion, and we told him we were only willing to give him a 2 year deal. He went to Chicago for a chance to start, more money, and a partially guaranteed 3rd year on top of those two things. He was one of the first free agents off the board that offseason.

This is where I am saying, in hindsight, they should have given him the money and the 3rd year

They ended up giving Lamb a 3 year deal anyway, so now we have Lamb instead of Thad

Yes, even if that meant we couldn't have signed TJ, because right now I'd rather have Thad instead of Lamb and TJ


Sure. We lack a backup PF right now, but I'm willing to assume that if we had kept Thad, and everything else stayed the same, we'd equally be looking for a backup PG right now, too.

As for the starting job, I'm not sure that was even a factor

Like you said, he must have known that we wanted to start Sabonis, yet he made it known that he wanted to be back


It was heavily reported to be a major factor. He wanted to return, but he wanted to return as the starter, and he didn't really care if that meant we had to trade Sabonis or not, he just wanted it.
He only started 16 out of 64 games he played in his first season with the Bulls anyway, so it's not like they gave him a job as a starter either


Sure, but they gave him the chance to start. We told him that he would not other than injuries.

By sheer cap mechanics, it would definitely have required we didn't acquire Lamb and one of TJ or Justin. That's a fact. The other reality is that for Thad to return, we probably would have had to deal Sabonis before last season during that free agency period.

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