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Pacers Odds and Ends

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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#61 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat Mar 6, 2021 4:10 pm

Wizop wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:Feels like trading for Temple is opposite of what they should be doing


I said the same thing on Twitter. JMichael actually posted a rare reply asking rhetorically whether I'd seen Temple shoot 3s. While I get that you can't have too many shooters, our need is a backup 4 not a wing.

Sent from my phone.


I think they would probably lean harder into the Lamb at 4 type minutes, or start playing McDermott more as a 4, too, in addition to Justin. Also, I think Aaron would fall fully out of the rotation for a Temple in that case.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#62 » by Topofthekey » Sat Mar 6, 2021 6:18 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Wizop wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:Feels like trading for Temple is opposite of what they should be doing


I said the same thing on Twitter. JMichael actually posted a rare reply asking rhetorically whether I'd seen Temple shoot 3s. While I get that you can't have too many shooters, our need is a backup 4 not a wing.

Sent from my phone.


I think they would probably lean harder into the Lamb at 4 type minutes, or start playing McDermott more as a 4, too, in addition to Justin. Also, I think Aaron would fall fully out of the rotation for a Temple in that case.

I understand that Aaron has been struggling, but trading for a one-year rental veteran and kicking Aaron into cold storage just seem like a very myopic thing to do, if indeed that was their plan

Starting to lose faith a little in KP/the franchise, especially after they reportedly tried to trade Myles for Hayward
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#63 » by pacers33granger » Sat Mar 6, 2021 7:15 pm

Topofthekey wrote:I understand that Aaron has been struggling, but trading for a one-year rental veteran and kicking Aaron into cold storage just seem like a very myopic thing to do, if indeed that was their plan


It's not an issue on here really, but if you look elsewhere (Reddit, Facebook, etc.), you'll see tons of Pacer fans already calling for Nate to be fired and saying they're done with the team. Unfortunately the majority of the fandom simply cannot handle losing despite a lot of them consistently saying they want to rebuild and tank. We happen to have a lot of fans who are totally fine with leaving the Pacers alone and jumping back on when the team starts winning.

The franchise has always looked for veteran help, so this is nothing new. But the fans really don't support the team when its struggling which makes it that much more unlikely that ownership will ever be ok with not just rebuilding, but allowing young guys to make mistakes.

Topofthekey wrote:Starting to lose faith a little in KP/the franchise, especially after they reportedly tried to trade Myles for Hayward


I still think that was more driven by ownership wanting the hometown star than anything. It would have been a bad deal and a bad contract, but Hayward is probably the best free agent who had interest in...ever? An injured David West was our best free agent signing in a long time, if ever, so it's not saying much, but still. I think Herb was looking at it through rose colored glasses because a "star" actually wanted to come to Indy.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#64 » by Topofthekey » Sat Mar 6, 2021 8:50 pm

pacers33granger wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:I understand that Aaron has been struggling, but trading for a one-year rental veteran and kicking Aaron into cold storage just seem like a very myopic thing to do, if indeed that was their plan


It's not an issue on here really, but if you look elsewhere (Reddit, Facebook, etc.), you'll see tons of Pacer fans already calling for Nate to be fired and saying they're done with the team. Unfortunately the majority of the fandom simply cannot handle losing despite a lot of them consistently saying they want to rebuild and tank. We happen to have a lot of fans who are totally fine with leaving the Pacers alone and jumping back on when the team starts winning.

There are two problems with this though

If indeed the push to acquire Garrett Temple was due to fan reaction to the team's recent performance, then it's a sign that the team has no long term plan in place, beyond placating fans on the fly. Basically it means they are directionless, and that's very bad

Also, how many wins do they think Garrett Temple might add to the team? 1? Maybe 2 or 3? That's nice, but these wins come at the expense of future wins, by not developing Aaron or Sumner. That's not a good trade off. I can understand if they are trying to bring in a difference maker, but Garrett Temple? So not only are they kneejerk reacting to fan pressure, they are doing so in a incompetent manner

If it's really about placating the fan base by delivering short term wins without regard for the next season or the one after that, then they should have just traded for James Harden

Now THAT would bring the W's and get the fan base excited, instead of settling for some half measure where they are throttling the team's development for a paltry 2 or 3 extra wins


pacers33granger wrote:The franchise has always looked for veteran help, so this is nothing new. But the fans really don't support the team when its struggling which makes it that much more unlikely that ownership will ever be ok with not just rebuilding, but allowing young guys to make mistakes.

I mean, I'm not against bringing in veteran help at all

But the team already has too many good/good-ish players trying to split playing time

I can understand if they're trying to bring in a veteran backup PF, but Garrett Temple just sounds like someone who would cannibalize minutes from existing players like Justin, Doug, and Lamb (who have all been pretty good), without actually solving any problems

Of course, this is all hypothetical anyway

We're just speculating here, and we aren't actually privy to their plans. Maybe trading for Garrett Temple is just a small part of a larger plan, who knows. Like maybe they were exploring another trade that would send out some combination of Justin, Doug, and Lamb, so Garrett Temple was meant to be a potential replacement for them. At least that's what I try to tell myself, to keep me from losing faith altogether


pacers33granger wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:Starting to lose faith a little in KP/the franchise, especially after they reportedly tried to trade Myles for Hayward


I still think that was more driven by ownership wanting the hometown star than anything. It would have been a bad deal and a bad contract, but Hayward is probably the best free agent who had interest in...ever? An injured David West was our best free agent signing in a long time, if ever, so it's not saying much, but still. I think Herb was looking at it through rose colored glasses because a "star" actually wanted to come to Indy.

I agree with this
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#65 » by Wizop » Sat Mar 6, 2021 9:49 pm

I can't get too upset about trade discussions that don't go anywhere. I think it is always okay to explore.

In particular if they don't think Doug will get a new contract here, I'd check his trade value. I also have never been an Aaron fan but he got us Justin.

As for Nate, it's okay that he has things to learn. Does our record really matter down 2 starters? The dream finish could be some playoff games and a lottery pick. I see a lot of power forwards mocked in the middle of round one.

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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#66 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat Mar 6, 2021 10:14 pm

Wizop wrote:I can't get too upset about trade discussions that don't go anywhere. I think it is always okay to explore.

In particular if they don't think Doug will get a new contract here, I'd check his trade value. I also have never been an Aaron fan but he got us Justin.

As for Nate, it's okay that he has things to learn. Does our record really matter down 2 starters? The dream finish could be some playoff games and a lottery pick. I see a lot of power forwards mocked in the middle of round one.

Sent from my phone.


Historically, we’ve always had bad dry runs, but it’s usually been real late in the season, and making us wonder if we can straighten it out before the playoffs (spoiler: we didn’t). This is earlier in the season, but we’re also down 2 huge pieces in Levert/Warren. Hopefully, Levert should return soon, and that will help, though not solve it completely, I’m sure.

For the draft, the beauty this year is that there’s 6’5” to 6’9” guys projected all the way up and down the 1st round, so should at least be guys that would fill a role.

As for Temple, he may even sit the bench here, but he’s huge in the players union, well respected by the players around the league, and would be an upgrade over Martin/Lecque, no doubt. Even if he doesn’t play much, he’d be a huge improvement over them, and while we as fans may not want to pay for that, I don’t doubt that Pritchard/Nate would probably prefer to. He’d also push Aaron Holiday and Sumner to keep improving to keep their minutes too. I’m not saying he’d immediately take minutes, but he’d always be a threat to, and a safety net if Levert/Warren don’t recover well.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#67 » by Lazlo4D » Sun Mar 7, 2021 5:22 am

Does anyone know good reasons why the Pacers are such a poor rebounding team?

Before 5 years ago, they were always a top five rebounding team in the league then they dropped to bottom half then kept dropping. They have been one of the worst 5 rebounding teams for the last several years.

This year they are 29 out of 30. Strange considering we start two big's most nights while other teams start just one.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#68 » by Wizop » Sun Mar 7, 2021 2:54 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote: a safety net if Levert/Warren don’t recover well.


Levert is just a pain and conditioning matter. He should start on a pitch count but I hope we'll play him with the first unit so he learns his teammates' games.

I suspect Warren may have performance limiting issues at first, but I could be wrong.

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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#69 » by pacers33granger » Sun Mar 7, 2021 5:08 pm

Lazlo4D wrote:Does anyone know good reasons why the Pacers are such a poor rebounding team?

Before 5 years ago, they were always a top five rebounding team in the league then they dropped to bottom half then kept dropping. They have been one of the worst 5 rebounding teams for the last several years.

This year they are 29 out of 30. Strange considering we start two big's most nights while other teams start just one.


I think its partly personnel but mostly playstyle. Vogel had more guys crashing the board and playing a slow pace on both sides. Both Nates seem to be more into looking for easy offense off of fastbreak opportunities, which is problematic especially with long rebounds.

But we also just don't have great rebounders. Domas is very good, but not as good as his numbers indicate given he gets a few boards nightly off of his own misses inside. Myles is smart and has gotten a ton better at boxing guys out, but he's still got strength/base issues. Same kinda goes for all of our guards and wings too. They're mostly smart ball players, but we don't have a Westbrook or Lance who just snatches up boards.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#70 » by Lazlo4D » Tue Mar 9, 2021 5:40 am

At the All-Star break, after 35 games, the Pacers are 16-19, 10th place in the East. They have lost 6 of their last 8 games and here are their next 7 games (Only 1 Home game):

3/12 at Lakers 24-13
3/13 at Suns 24-11 (Back to Back)
3/15 at Denver 21-15
3/17 Nets 24-13
3/19 at Heat 18-18
3/21 at Heat 18-18
3/22 at Bucks 22-14 (Back to Back)
3/25 NBA Trading Deadline
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#71 » by Pacers_Freak » Tue Mar 9, 2021 2:53 pm

Lazlo4D wrote:At the All-Star break, after 35 games, the Pacers are 16-19, 10th place in the East. They have lost 6 of their last 8 games and here are their next 7 games (Only 1 Home game):

3/12 at Lakers 24-13
3/13 at Suns 24-11 (Back to Back)
3/15 at Denver 21-15
3/17 Nets 24-13
3/19 at Heat 18-18
3/21 at Heat 18-18
3/22 at Bucks 22-14 (Back to Back)
3/25 NBA Trading Deadline


Time to start looking at possible lottery plays I'm afraid.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#72 » by Tom White » Tue Mar 9, 2021 3:14 pm

Pacers_Freak wrote:Time to start looking at possible lottery plays I'm afraid.


Would not be surprising to start hearing of players requesting trades. This ship is not sailing well at all.

Also - I'm sorry, I just don't accept excuses like it being early in the season and such. They have had 35 games already. Lack of practice is not an excuse either, as part of that was the coach's decision. At this point we have one really good player (Sabonis) with the rest being what I would call "also-rans". I'm afraid the same label could be applied to the coach, so plenty of blame to go around.

Full disclosure: I have not even bothered to watch the team for a number of games now. You could just see this coming, so no point.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#73 » by Pacers_Freak » Tue Mar 9, 2021 3:24 pm

Tom White wrote:
Pacers_Freak wrote:Time to start looking at possible lottery plays I'm afraid.


Would not be surprising to start hearing of players requesting trades. This ship is not sailing well at all.

Also - I'm sorry, I just don't accept excuses like it being early in the season and such. They have had 35 games already. Lack of practice is not an excuse either, as part of that was the coach's decision. At this point we have one really good player (Sabonis) with the rest being what I would call "also-rans". I'm afraid the same label could be applied to the coach, so plenty of blame to go around.

Full disclosure: I have not even bothered to watch the team for a number of games now. You could just see this coming, so no point.


In fairness the team is without 2 really good players. Also ran also maybe harsh for Brogdon and Turner.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#74 » by Topofthekey » Tue Mar 9, 2021 3:54 pm

That 4th quarter collapse in the loss to the 76ers without Embiid really did a number on the team

Domas is trying his best to carry the team, but he's not getting much help

Myles is doing his best of defense, but watching him successfully challenging a shot only for the other team to get an easy offensive rebound off the miss is just sad

Offensively, the team hasn't been shooting well. Defensively, the team is inconsistent at switching and doesn't block out offensive rebounders enough. Basically the team's woes currently
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#75 » by boomershadow » Tue Mar 9, 2021 7:02 pm

Basically, Bjorkgren inherited a team with a number of major strengths but also some major weaknesses. We seem to have taken more steps backwards than we have improved on the weaknesses. That's a crappy position to be in, especially when our teams from the last few years also faced injury problems so that is no excuse.

I hope that we can get our mojo back after the All Star break, because this team started out the year looking pretty good. To make matters worse, Burke and Jones seem to be doing well enough in Phily, and McMillan has already found himself a new job.

Bjork was sold to the fans as a hard worker, so he better be putting in the time and effort to get this ship righted. I don't wanna eat a bunch of crow after saying for so long that the team had reached its ceiling under McMillan.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#76 » by Lazlo4D » Tue Mar 9, 2021 10:39 pm

Pacers_Freak wrote:Time to start looking at possible lottery plays I'm afraid.


Agreed... If the Pacers are 16-26 or 17-25 after this stretch then they are in the zone of having close to a 40% chance at a top 4 pick. They need to play the young players ( Goga, Stanley, Sumner, A Holiday) a lot more and not rush Levert & Warren back, get them fully healthy. ( I didn't say tank, I meant tank but I didn't say tank)

For a team that hasn't had a top 10 draft pick in 30 years, the possibility of adding a top franchise pick to the current young talent base could set them up for a contender run for years.
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#77 » by Topofthekey » Tue Mar 9, 2021 11:03 pm

boomershadow wrote:Basically, Bjorkgren inherited a team with a number of major strengths but also some major weaknesses. We seem to have taken more steps backwards than we have improved on the weaknesses. That's a crappy position to be in, especially when our teams from the last few years also faced injury problems so that is no excuse.

I hope that we can get our mojo back after the All Star break, because this team started out the year looking pretty good. To make matters worse, Burke and Jones seem to be doing well enough in Phily, and McMillan has already found himself a new job.

Bjork was sold to the fans as a hard worker, so he better be putting in the time and effort to get this ship righted. I don't wanna eat a bunch of crow after saying for so long that the team had reached its ceiling under McMillan.

Another thing about this team is, this team doesn't seem to be very good in developing young players, particularly those tier 2 or tier 3 young players. You know, those type who may or may not carve out a career in the league

GR3 was with the team for a few seasons, and amounted to nothing much basically. But he has looked better playing for other teams

Alize Johnson is another one. His time with the team was rather unimpactful, but the wiretap is reporting that multiple teams are currently interested in him

Sumner looks like he's going to be the next casualty

For a team who doesn't tank for top lottery picks, and also have trouble attracting star FAs, you'd think that they would put more effort into developing these diamond in the rough type of players, but apparently that's not the case

They seem content to lean hard on the best players they have at the moment (whoever they may be), and squeeze out as many wins as possible one season at a time

I don't know man. It just feels like the way they run this team is very myopic. It's as if they take things one season at a time, and don't really plan ahead longer than a few months at most (obviously this is hyperbole, don't come at me)
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#78 » by Pacers Forever » Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:20 am

Of course we were content early in the season when the team was playing well together. Now it's like the league saw film and boom the Pacers struggle in every contest. Makes me wonder if Nate will mix it up or stay with the 3 point quick offense strategy. I don't like Nate's strategy of we're going to take more 3 pointers than ever. He's given the ok to fire at will and personally I think that disrupts an offense. All teams come down and fire a 3 in transition, but to run a motion offense to get a 3 point look only works for pure distance shooters like (Doug, Justin and Brogdon kind of) along with many great long range shooters like Steph, Dame, and Harden ect. Yet we have Turner, Sabonis, and bench players hoisting 3's rather than running pick and roll or sets of plays. It's not their best percentage shot and definitely doesn't look smooth or natural. Again I have heard his excuse of this Covid season doesn't allow for practice and establishing an offense. It's almost like they're just playing out this season to get back to a normal season where they can build an offense. I don't think the team plays fluidly together, and I don't like the make up of the team. I'm all in for a rebuild and like the idea of getting a top draft choice this year especially as we all know 1 NBA super star doesn't want to come to a small market team let alone 2-3. :o

So we pair a young stud scorer from the draft with my keepers who are Sabonis, LeVert, J. Holiday, and Warren give or take. I like Warren because he can stroke it, good contract, young, and potential. I'd keep McDermott, McConnell, Stanley, Goga, and Sampson for the bench. The rest of this team please trade or release and get the best fit you can to fill out the team. Yeah I'd love to get rid of Lamb, Brogdon, and Myles in return for a true point guard, a PF/Center that can rebound, defend bigs, plus play well with Domas, and another point guard or scorer. So next year.

Starters
point guard
LeVert
Warren
Domas
Big

Bench
McConnell
Doug
J. Holiday
Goga
TBD

I know I'm a bit crazy, :crazy: but I've followed this team since 1968ish and the NBA is not conducive or built to letting a small market team thrive just as in baseball. So I look at what SEA/OKC did drafting Durant #2, Westbrook #4 plus Ibaka #24, and the following year Hardin #3 to build a team that should have won a championship before splitting up. This was 2007, 2008, 2009 drafts. Pacers during same 3 drafts No pick, Bayless, Hansbrough because they don't rebuild and draft from 11th and farther back. The talent in the latest drafts is very weak by the 15th pick and back. The 2nd round picks rarely play much.

To me the Pacers best chance to ever get a title is by a rebuild and drafting college players who turn into NBA studs and keep them together before they become too expensive to resign. Of course there's a lot of scouting, knowledge, skill, and some luck involved drafting that successfully. If you look at OKC I believe they're gearing up to do it again.

The one other observation I see looking at the drafts is if you can pry away a young potential talent from a team before the player blossoms for that team and get lucky to build bench strength.

To wrap this up change needs to happen and I'm all for it ! :lol:
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#79 » by Topofthekey » Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:15 pm

Pacers Forever wrote:To me the Pacers best chance to ever get a title is by a rebuild and drafting college players who turn into NBA studs and keep them together before they become too expensive to resign. Of course there's a lot of scouting, knowledge, skill, and some luck involved drafting that successfully. If you look at OKC I believe they're gearing up to do it again.

The one other observation I see looking at the drafts is if you can pry away a young potential talent from a team before the player blossoms for that team and get lucky to build bench strength.

To wrap this up change needs to happen and I'm all for it ! :lol:

About drafting, I think the team should invest more in scouting in Europe

I mean, most of the recent superstars who demanded to be traded to their city of choice are American players (Harden, AD, PG, etc)

Same goes with those superstars who try to form superteams with their buddies (LeBron, KD, Kawhi)

When you think about it, for Euro players who play in the NBA, they are basically just expats working in America, and their primary human relationships in the US are probably with the people in the organization that drafted them and brought them over. They aren't surrounded by an army of childhood acquaintances or family and friends constantly telling them where they should go or what they should do

Also, they are probably a bit more ambivalent about which city to play in. Whether they have to play in California vs Utah probably doesn't make too much of a difference to them, it's all just America anyway from their point of view. It's kind of how an average American probably wouldn't care if he has to work in Belgrade vs Prague, it's all just Eastern Europe anyway

If the issue with small markets is they aren't able to retain the star players they drafted, maybe they'll have better luck with Euro players
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Re: Pacers Odds and Ends 

Post#80 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:29 pm

Pacers Forever wrote:Of course we were content early in the season when the team was playing well together. Now it's like the league saw film and boom the Pacers struggle in every contest. Makes me wonder if Nate will mix it up or stay with the 3 point quick offense strategy. I don't like Nate's strategy of we're going to take more 3 pointers than ever. He's given the ok to fire at will and personally I think that disrupts an offense. All teams come down and fire a 3 in transition, but to run a motion offense to get a 3 point look only works for pure distance shooters like (Doug, Justin and Brogdon kind of) along with many great long range shooters like Steph, Dame, and Harden ect. Yet we have Turner, Sabonis, and bench players hoisting 3's rather than running pick and roll or sets of plays. It's not their best percentage shot and definitely doesn't look smooth or natural. Again I have heard his excuse of this Covid season doesn't allow for practice and establishing an offense. It's almost like they're just playing out this season to get back to a normal season where they can build an offense. I don't think the team plays fluidly together, and I don't like the make up of the team. I'm all in for a rebuild and like the idea of getting a top draft choice this year especially as we all know 1 NBA super star doesn't want to come to a small market team let alone 2-3. :o


Some agreements here, but otherwise, the whole “league watching the film” and figuring out Indy also coincides with having dealt Oladipo for an injured guy in Levert, and turning bench players into starters and not replacing them, which has led to some major issues. Sure, there are issues, but we’ve always had slumps (McMillans were usually in the weeks heading into the playoffs), and we had two major pieces missing with injuries. Health alone will repair a lot of things.
So we pair a young stud scorer from the draft with my keepers who are Sabonis, LeVert, J. Holiday, and Warren give or take. I like Warren because he can stroke it, good contract, young, and potential. I'd keep McDermott, McConnell, Stanley, Goga, and Sampson for the bench. The rest of this team please trade or release and get the best fit you can to fill out the team. Yeah I'd love to get rid of Lamb, Brogdon, and Myles in return for a true point guard, a PF/Center that can rebound, defend bigs, plus play well with Domas, and another point guard or scorer. So next year.

Starters
point guard
LeVert
Warren
Domas
Big

Bench
McConnell
Doug
J. Holiday
Goga
TBD

I know I'm a bit crazy, :crazy: but I've followed this team since 1968ish and the NBA is not conducive or built to letting a small market team thrive just as in baseball. So I look at what SEA/OKC did drafting Durant #2, Westbrook #4 plus Ibaka #24, and the following year Hardin #3 to build a team that should have won a championship before splitting up. This was 2007, 2008, 2009 drafts. Pacers during same 3 drafts No pick, Bayless, Hansbrough because they don't rebuild and draft from 11th and farther back. The talent in the latest drafts is very weak by the 15th pick and back. The 2nd round picks rarely play much.

To me the Pacers best chance to ever get a title is by a rebuild and drafting college players who turn into NBA studs and keep them together before they become too expensive to resign. Of course there's a lot of scouting, knowledge, skill, and some luck involved drafting that successfully. If you look at OKC I believe they're gearing up to do it again.

The one other observation I see looking at the drafts is if you can pry away a young potential talent from a team before the player blossoms for that team and get lucky to build bench strength.

To wrap this up change needs to happen and I'm all for it ! :lol:


I’m not confident that Brogdon and Turner could return multiple high draft picks like you hope they will, not will the team be bad enough to get high in the lottery to draft them. Otherwise, I think Turner IS that big that can defend PF’s, to the perimeter, etc, he’s just not the terrific rebounder you might hope for.

But also, it’s easy in hindsight to say that the Pacers should have ranked certain years to get Harden instead of a Hanbrough, or whomever, but going into the drafts, you don’t know who those guys are. Heck, teams wanted to rank to get Carter and Bagley recently. How’s that working out? Or Ayton? He’s good, but he’s not a future superstar. He’s hopefully going to peak as a Turner level impact, though more offense than defense.

And are you willing to tank for many years and churn through many picks to eventually get the right guys and hit? It’s not as easy as a one year and then good to go. If it takes 5 years, are you going to buy season tickets and get everyone you know to help buy the tickets to replace the casuals who want to see competitiveness every night that a Brogdon, Levert, Warren, Turner, Sabonis lineup would bring?

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