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General Overview of Team

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General Overview of Team 

Post#1 » by JMAC3 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:24 pm

Hey Pacers Fans!

Congrats on a strong start to the season for you guys, I think having so much continuity from last years team is a big reason you are seeing success early on and you should easily be a playoff team in the East. I do have some questions on your roster that I was just looking to get some insight on and thought it might just be easier to let this thread run for a day or 2 while I get a short synopsis on a few of your players.

I am assuming Sabonis and Brogdon are your studs and you see them as the core so I don't have too much about them.

Myles Turner- Is he worth the contract? Do you like him and Sabonis together? Seems like right now with Goga out you are staggering their minutes possibly? Is that the longterm plan or is Goga a huge part of this future rotation? Is Goga good?

Contract wise do you have any awful contracts you are looking to move? Jeremy Lamb, Warren and Holiday all seem like solid values, but are they hindering you from making a move to the next level?

I ask this because what is your plan with Oladipo? Do you want to resign him? He seems like he is going to get a Hayward type contract this summer simply due to the lack of viable options and the amount of free agent cash all these teams are going to be holding. Are you hoping he signs back with you? Do you have the space to sign him? If you could move the money of Lamb or Warren in a deal would that help bring back Oladipo next year?

Is there anything your team is lacking? Is Aaron Holiday a good backup PG? Is he more than that? Is he going to be hard to retain?

Lastly, is McDermott a good value right now? Is he someone you desperately want to bring back or is he a flawed player you can live without?

Sorry for a million questions, but I feel like I do not have a good grasp on the innerworkings of your team and the future and could not find a good article breaking it down. Cheers.
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#2 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:40 pm

JMAC3 wrote:Hey Pacers Fans!

Congrats on a strong start to the season for you guys, I think having so much continuity from last years team is a big reason you are seeing success early on and you should easily be a playoff team in the East. I do have some questions on your roster that I was just looking to get some insight on and thought it might just be easier to let this thread run for a day or 2 while I get a short synopsis on a few of your players.

I am assuming Sabonis and Brogdon are your studs and you see them as the core so I don't have too much about them.


I guess? Really, the core is the starting 5 altogether. Brogdon, Oladipo, Warren, Sabonis, and Turner.

Myles Turner- Is he worth the contract? Do you like him and Sabonis together? Seems like right now with Goga out you are staggering their minutes possibly? Is that the longterm plan or is Goga a huge part of this future rotation? Is Goga good?

Absolutely worth the contract! He’s a game wrecker defensively that can both shoot the 3 and drive to the basket. Just because we haven’t needed him to do so as much doesn’t mean that he isn’t worth his contract.

As to he and Sabonis together, we’re excited. They’re really meshing well, and they get along really well personally, too. Ultimately, Sabonis is best with someone that can help erase his defensive mistakes and guard the perimeter. Ideally, someone a bit more PFish would be best, but not just at any cost. They’d have to be a good defender and stretch the court, and Myles is really the “best available” at those skills.

Goga is an interesting piece. He’s really naturally talented, but has been set back by injuries, Visa problems, and now shortened training camp with the Covid pandemic. The hope is that essentially we have a 3 man rotation at the 4/5 with those 3, as Goga is also a rim protector with a long range shot. Per minute last year, he was pretty similar to Myles, so we think he’ll be good. The international adjustment for him is taking a second, though.
Contract wise do you have any awful contracts you are looking to move? Jeremy Lamb, Warren and Holiday all seem like solid values, but are they hindering you from making a move to the next level?

Not really. The worst contract on the books right now for us is Jeremy Lamb’s, and solely because of his injury and rehab. Otherwise, it’s just $10.5m this year and next. It’s possible he’ll have to be “salary dumped” in order to comfortably max Oladipo and fill out the roster, but he’s also been rendered less needed with the emergence of Aaron Holiday, Justin Holiday, and even Ed Sumner. Otherwise, he might be a salary filler in a trade that we attach a 1st to for a really solid piece in return. We likely don’t feel we absolutely need to move him though.

I ask this because what is your plan with Oladipo? Do you want to resign him? He seems like he is going to get a Hayward type contract this summer simply due to the lack of viable options and the amount of free agent cash all these teams are going to be holding. Are you hoping he signs back with you? Do you have the space to sign him? If you could move the money of Lamb or Warren in a deal would that help bring back Oladipo next year?


The plan is likely to resign him. Our VP Pritchard has been pretty clear that the plan is to re-sign him too. We set up the cap pretty solidly to max him with no issues, though the depressed cap from Covid hurt that a tad that we may have to move Jeremy Lamb now, but it’s not bad. I hope he re-signs. He’s a dynamic 2 way SG that fits well with the roster, and he’s not easily replaceable. If he walks, we only have MLE space. Moving the money of Lamb may help, but moving Warren would require a ton of value. He’s very much a key piece of the roster and Uber-productive. We definitely won’t salary dump Warren. Maybe Lamb, but more so we may just look to move him for 2 or 3 guys that combined make what he does to fill out the roster. It’s not a situation where we absolutely have to dump him and have to pay to do so.
Is there anything your team is lacking? Is Aaron Holiday a good backup PG? Is he more than that? Is he going to be hard to retain?


Right now, we have 3 guys we really love on the bench at PG long term in McConnell, Aaron Holiday, and Ed Sumner. I think Aaron is likely projected to fill the starting guard spot if Oladipo does leave. He’s projected as a long-term key piece. He won’t be hard to retain, as he’s under contract this year and next on his rookie deal. We’ve already picked up his option, so he’s under contract for next year.
Lastly, is McDermott a good value right now? Is he someone you desperately want to bring back or is he a flawed player you can live without?


We absolutely love Doug. He’s been great this year, and now has a coach that is utilizing him all over the court, and trusting him some defensively, rather than just asking him to stand in the corner and wait open 3’s. We’d like to bring him back, but he may be a salary loss next year if Oladipo keeps balling out and needs closer to the max to keep. Dumping Jeremy Lamb could help bring him back though. I would imagine that Doug may simply get offers in free agency next year that are just way too much for us to even consider keeping him. With his shooting prowess, and developing defense and other skills, I could really see him get offers in the $13-$17m range this summer, and I think we would be able to replace him with Justin Holiday pretty well, and look to fill the backup 4 in free agency or the draft.
Sorry for a million questions, but I feel like I do not have a good grasp on the innerworkings of your team and the future and could not find a good article breaking it down. Cheers.


No worries. Indy is never well written about nationally, though I think the Ringer had a decent article recently. Otherwise, Caitlin Cooper does great write ups of the play of the Pacers, and Tony East is a great write up of the more beat writer type stuff about the Pacers.
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#3 » by JMAC3 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:31 pm

[quote="Scoot McGroot"]

I guess? Really, the core is the starting 5 altogether. Brogdon, Oladipo, Warren, Sabonis, and Turner.
[quote]


Hey Man, Thank you for all the information. You were really helpful in giving me the 360 degree view of the team and it sounds like from a fans position you are nearly happy with everything going on with your team.

Wish I could say the same from Hornets land. We love LaMelo and think he has superstar potential and Hayward has given us that steady eddy production night in and night out that we needed. We are really struggling up front and probably could use some additional depth off the bench especially in the shooting department.

I know there are many a fan on our board who think Myles Turner is the answer and it sounds like he is not available for the most part, which is what I figured.

Thought a deal in which we send you Rozier for Oladipo might have some legs and give you the piece of mind of not having to go through FA with Oladipo, but sounds like the FO is ready for that fight. Rozier is a really good catch and shoot player who has some tools off the bounce that I thought Brogdon might be lacking. Also, thought I remember Oladipo and organization having a riff at some point this offseason.

Ultimately Rozier, Graham and Ball are not well suited to play together long-term so we are trying our best to find a beneficial landing spot for Rozier or Graham.
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#4 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:19 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
I guess? Really, the core is the starting 5 altogether. Brogdon, Oladipo, Warren, Sabonis, and Turner.


Hey Man, Thank you for all the information. You were really helpful in giving me the 360 degree view of the team and it sounds like from a fans position you are nearly happy with everything going on with your team.

Wish I could say the same from Hornets land. We love LaMelo and think he has superstar potential and Hayward has given us that steady eddy production night in and night out that we needed. We are really struggling up front and probably could use some additional depth off the bench especially in the shooting department.

I know there are many a fan on our board who think Myles Turner is the answer and it sounds like he is not available for the most part, which is what I figured.

Thought a deal in which we send you Rozier for Oladipo might have some legs and give you the piece of mind of not having to go through FA with Oladipo, but sounds like the FO is ready for that fight. Rozier is a really good catch and shoot player who has some tools off the bounce that I thought Brogdon might be lacking. Also, thought I remember Oladipo and organization having a riff at some point this offseason.

Ultimately Rozier, Graham and Ball are not well suited to play together long-term so we are trying our best to find a beneficial landing spot for Rozier or Graham.


Nah. The amazing thing of all the reports is that it’s not once been reported that Oladipo has a riff with the organization. In fact, it’s been universally reported that he’s done really well with Pritchard and with Nate Bjorkgren. What was reported was that after games last year, he reportedly asked players “can I come play with y’all” many times. Who knows?

As for a Rozier swap, no thanks. Oladipo really has been a killer two way guy, and since you see the value in Oladipo over Rozier, we do too.

Myles would be a great fit there, but I’m not sure that the price he’d cost, you’d be willing to pay. You probably don’t want to deal either Ball or PJ, and Bridges isn’t enough. If we deal Myles though, we desperately need someone to play 30+ minutes a night at the 4/5 spots as we’d only really have Sabonis/Goga with Sampson as our emergency guy, and Sabonis/Goga being better suited for the 5. If we make any moves, it’d likely be a guard for a rotation/bench big man. Think Jeremy Lamb, McConnell, or Aaron Holiday.
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#5 » by JMAC3 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:26 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
I guess? Really, the core is the starting 5 altogether. Brogdon, Oladipo, Warren, Sabonis, and Turner.


Nah. The amazing thing of all the reports is that it’s not once been reported that Oladipo has a riff with the organization. In fact, it’s been universally reported that he’s done really well with Pritchard and with Nate Bjorkgren. What was reported was that after games last year, he reportedly asked players “can I come play with y’all” many times. Who knows?

As for a Rozier swap, no thanks. Oladipo really has been a killer two way guy, and since you see the value in Oladipo over Rozier, we do too.

Myles would be a great fit there, but I’m not sure that the price he’d cost, you’d be willing to pay. You probably don’t want to deal either Ball or PJ, and Bridges isn’t enough. If we deal Myles though, we desperately need someone to play 30+ minutes a night at the 4/5 spots as we’d only really have Sabonis/Goga with Sampson as our emergency guy, and Sabonis/Goga being better suited for the 5. If we make any moves, it’d likely be a guard for a rotation/bench big man. Think Jeremy Lamb, McConnell, or Aaron Holiday.


Yeah Ball is not going anywhere anytime soon.

And I do agree Oladipo is probably the better option when compared to Rozier in a vacuum, but Pacers have a history of dealing guys they are afraid to lose in FA. Oladipo is already rumored to be interested in leaving, he will get a massive offer, seems like he is third in pecking order right now. Rozier at 19 million would of guaranteed to fill that role and is probably better than any backup plan you will be able to find in the offseason if Oladipo does decide to bounce.

If you are confident that Oladipo is coming back no matter what then yeah I would pass on the deal, but if it is more of a 50/50 chance then something like this makes a ton of sense for you.
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#6 » by Scoot McGroot » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:33 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:


Nah. The amazing thing of all the reports is that it’s not once been reported that Oladipo has a riff with the organization. In fact, it’s been universally reported that he’s done really well with Pritchard and with Nate Bjorkgren. What was reported was that after games last year, he reportedly asked players “can I come play with y’all” many times. Who knows?

As for a Rozier swap, no thanks. Oladipo really has been a killer two way guy, and since you see the value in Oladipo over Rozier, we do too.

Myles would be a great fit there, but I’m not sure that the price he’d cost, you’d be willing to pay. You probably don’t want to deal either Ball or PJ, and Bridges isn’t enough. If we deal Myles though, we desperately need someone to play 30+ minutes a night at the 4/5 spots as we’d only really have Sabonis/Goga with Sampson as our emergency guy, and Sabonis/Goga being better suited for the 5. If we make any moves, it’d likely be a guard for a rotation/bench big man. Think Jeremy Lamb, McConnell, or Aaron Holiday.


Yeah Ball is not going anywhere anytime soon.


Absolutely. As is the case with essentially any top 5 draft pick. But, talent requires talent.


And I do agree Oladipo is probably the better option when compared to Rozier in a vacuum, but Pacers have a history of dealing guys they are afraid to lose in FA. Oladipo is already rumored to be interested in leaving, he will get a massive offer, seems like he is third in pecking order right now. Rozier at 19 million would of guaranteed to fill that role and is probably better than any backup plan you will be able to find in the offseason if Oladipo does decide to bounce.


Oh, I think you’re mistaken. We really don’t have that history AT ALL. We’ve dealt guys who have demanded out and stayed firm on it. It’s really the only thing you can do in those scenarios. But guys that have value and could be traded for value routinely finish out contracts with us and go on elsewhere, without us having dealt them out of fear of losing them. We’ve done well in free agency lately, and I think Pritchard would feel the same going forward.

Otherwise, Oladipo is the highest usage rate on the team right now. He’s being asked to be a premiere two way player. He’s still getting 20ish points a night. He’s not really 3rd option overall. We essentially have 3 #1 options in Sabonis, Oladipo, and Brogdon.

Otherwise, we’d probably rather have Aaron Holiday fill the role that you project Terry Rozier to fill, and use the additional $15m in flexibility under the tax to fill other holes. Sure, Rozier the better shooter right now, but we project Aaron to be fine there, and be the better defender and playmaker overall long-term.

If you are confident that Oladipo is coming back no matter what then yeah I would pass on the deal, but if it is more of a 50/50 chance then something like this makes a ton of sense for you.


Honestly, this is not really a consideration. If we think that Oladipo is 50/50, we take the chance. He’s just SOOOO much better than Rozier overall that it’s not worth making that swap. And if we think that Oladipo is 75-90% likely to walk, we’d likely listen to offers, and simply do better than this in the open market, where Vic might be the best possible acquisition at the deadline. Remember, Charlotte wouldn’t be the only suitor.
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#7 » by JMAC3 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:23 am

Scoot McGroot wrote: He’s just SOOOO much better than Rozier overall that it’s not worth making that swap. And if we think that Oladipo is 75-90% likely to walk, we’d likely listen to offers, and simply do better than this in the open market, where Vic might be the best possible acquisition at the deadline. Remember, Charlotte wouldn’t be the only suitor.


Yeah no worries man, just thought it might have some legs. I do think you are either severely overrated Oladipo or severely underrated Rozier with that "SOOOOO" nonsense haha.

Rozier is 20ppg on 47/44/78% with 3.3 boards/3 assists and 1.5 steals.

Oladipo is 20 ppg on 42.5/40/72% with 6 boards/4.3 assists and 1.1 steals.

Numbers are pretty much even with Rozier being more efficient and Oladipo being better rebounder. Rozier has hit 35 threes this year, Oladipo 23 threes so think it is safe to say Rozier is at least the better shooter.

Best of luck tho, hope you guys are able to keep Vic long term. I am Hoosier fan myself so glad he is having success close to home.
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#8 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:21 am

JMAC3 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote: He’s just SOOOO much better than Rozier overall that it’s not worth making that swap. And if we think that Oladipo is 75-90% likely to walk, we’d likely listen to offers, and simply do better than this in the open market, where Vic might be the best possible acquisition at the deadline. Remember, Charlotte wouldn’t be the only suitor.


Yeah no worries man, just thought it might have some legs. I do think you are either severely overrated Oladipo or severely underrated Rozier with that "SOOOOO" nonsense haha.

Rozier is 20ppg on 47/44/78% with 3.3 boards/3 assists and 1.5 steals.

Oladipo is 20 ppg on 42.5/40/72% with 6 boards/4.3 assists and 1.1 steals.

Numbers are pretty much even with Rozier being more efficient and Oladipo being better rebounder. Rozier has hit 35 threes this year, Oladipo 23 threes so think it is safe to say Rozier is at least the better shooter.

Best of luck tho, hope you guys are able to keep Vic long term. I am Hoosier fan myself so glad he is having success close to home.


You’re glossing over that Oladipo has also been playing All-Defense caliber defense on every primary scoring wing option we’ve played this year. As you see, you’re drawing them as close comparisons offensively, though Rozier is able to do it off the ball with Ball and Hayward creating for him, and Oladipo is doing it more as the primary usage player.

Either way, Rozier is playing well. That’s absolutely true. He’s just still not been in Oladipo’s league so far this year. And that’s not a knock on Rozier as much as Oladipo is just really playing some top tier basketball overall, when you factor in both ends of the court.
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#9 » by Topofthekey » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:42 am

Responding to the title of the thread, general overview of the team

It's kind of an oxymoron, but the Pacers are currently simultaneously very deep but also lacking in depth

The Pacers are very deep, in the sense that the first three guys off their bench are Justin Holiday, Doug McDermott, and TJ McConnell. They have all performed remarkably well. Doug has been blistering on offense, and Justin quite literally does everything for the team - shoot, score, defend, force some turnovers, dunk, hit clutch shots, defend the opponent's big, etc. And he does it very well, too. If he and Doug aren't in the conversation for the 6moty award, they should be. McConnell has also been great as a sparkplug off the bench who can help create runs. They are all solid backup players

And then there's Aaron Holiday, who looks like a key member of the team well into the future. And of course, Goga, who has the potential to be better than Myles or Domas

And how about Lamb? He's going to be a solid rotational piece as well once he returns

When you look at this this way, a healthy Pacers squad has got 11 players who are all deserving of playing time. And this isn't even taking into considering prospects who Pacers would like to develop (Sumner, Stanley), and other solid pieces like Jakaar Sampson and Kelan Martin

On paper, the team is just too deep and there isn't possibly going to be enough playing time for everyone

But as I said, the team also somehow simultaneously lacks depth

The main reason for that is of course, injuries

Despite Pacers looking like they have an oversupply of bigs with both Myles and Domas, the team actually struggled to match up to bigger opponents whenever one of them had to sit due to foul trouble. This was mainly due to the team's third big, Goga, being sidelined with injuries. Sampson, although a solid backup, is more of a small ball big, a role which has been given to Justin Holiday due to his outstanding play. That's how the team ended up with the awkward situation of having Justin Holiday as their primary "backup big"

On the wings too it's almost the same story. Lamb is still out, and Warren just had surgery

Ideally that opens up playing time for others in the rotation, but again, due to how well McDermott and McConnell have been playing, and Aaron Holiday being given the chance to start, the three of them have been soaking up all the minutes vacated by Lamb and Warren. And perhaps due to that, due to the team effectively only playing an 8 player rotation, the team has had to rely on starters like Domas and Brogdon playing an unsustainable amount of minutes

And that's more or less how a team that theoretically has 12 or 13 players fighting for playing time ended up barely having enough players to cobble together an 8 man rotation

It's a weird situation

Of course, things are changing

Lamb and Goga are going to be available soon, and it looks like the team is getting more confident with playing Sumner, judging by how Bjorkgren kept him in for long stretches of the game against the Kings - he responded well too, scoring 8 points in 11 minutes of playing time

It's hard to say how any of this will translate into any moves from Pritchard

I think the general idea is still to stay the course and let things settle, before any decision is made
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#10 » by basketballwacko2 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:52 am

The big issue I see is a lack of a backup PF, Goga being injured and the loss of Warren makes us thin at the forward spot. The team is about $500K over the tax line so something needs to be done to bolster the forward spot and cut about $500k from the payroll.
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#11 » by Topofthekey » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:12 pm

basketballwacko2 wrote:The big issue I see is a lack of a backup PF, Goga being injured and the loss of Warren makes us thin at the forward spot. The team is about $500K over the tax line so something needs to be done to bolster the forward spot and cut about $500k from the payroll.

Sampson is the theoretical backup PF, and he's a solid backup player too, but he hasn't been getting a lot of minutes

Somehow Justin Holiday has been the one soaking up the backup PF minutes playing as a small ball PF

I don't think anyone considers it ideal that Justin was matched up against Zion, but that's exactly what happened, and continues to happen it seems

It's really strange. Pacers simultaneously have too many and also too little options off the bench
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#12 » by JMAC3 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:57 pm

I have seen Aaron Holiday mentioned by several posters throughout this thread. What exactly is he good at?

He ranks 181st out of 182 players in PER.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_advanced.html#advanced_stats::per

last year he ranked 158 out of 187 players.



He ranks in the bottom 10 in pts,assists,reb,steals and blocks on per minute basis in the league.
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#13 » by Scoot McGroot » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:43 pm

JMAC3 wrote:I have seen Aaron Holiday mentioned by several posters throughout this thread. What exactly is he good at?

He ranks 181st out of 182 players in PER.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_advanced.html#advanced_stats::per

last year he ranked 158 out of 187 players.



He ranks in the bottom 10 in pts,assists,reb,steals and blocks on per minute basis in the league.



He’s a really good defender. Average to good playmaker at the PG spot. And is usually a really good 3 point shooter, though he’s started this and last year poorly before kicking back into gear. McMillan changed his role every couple weeks last year though, as he used the Holiday brothers as his “fixers”. Any one missing or any role needed, he put a Holiday brother on it and it was usually fixed.
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#14 » by winter_mute_13 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:57 pm

Aaron has been pretty bad this year, that's for sure, and it's a testament to the team's belief in him that he continues to get development minutes despite the short rotation.

He was pretty ok last year, though I don't doubt his numbers look mediocre on average. As very often with young players, it's more about his potential than his current level of play. Realistically, I would project he tops out as an explosive bench scorer, but of course we hope for more.
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#15 » by Topofthekey » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:06 am

Aaron is in a shooting slump right now

He's shooting an atrocious 25.8% from 3pt compared to 39.4% last season. That's a huge drop off

One of his best attribute is that he's a very confident player, he's the type of scorer who isn't afraid to take the big shots and doesn't hesitate to attack the rim, so when he's in a prolonged shooting slump like this, it affects his usefulness as a player

It's highly unlikely that he'll shoot 25.8% for the season, so we expect him to bounce back soon-ish. We also think he has untapped potential left, and he has shown steady improvement since being drafted, so we feel comfortable with him having a future with the team
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#16 » by JMAC3 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:29 pm

Guess Pacers did not have as much confidence on keeping Oladipo as you guys thought.

LeVert is a nice player.
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#17 » by Topofthekey » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:36 pm

JMAC3 wrote:Guess Pacers did not have as much confidence on keeping Oladipo as you guys thought.

LeVert is a nice player.

There is quite a material difference in Pacers trading for Terry Rozier and Pacers trading for Caris Levert
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Re: General Overview of Team 

Post#18 » by winter_mute_13 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:38 am

Topofthekey wrote:
JMAC3 wrote:Guess Pacers did not have as much confidence on keeping Oladipo as you guys thought.

LeVert is a nice player.

There is quite a material difference in Pacers trading for Terry Rozier and Pacers trading for Caris Levert


Most important is position - big wings like Levert are much in demand, while there are plenty of small combo guards

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