Hornets/Pacers trade Idea

[JMAC3]

Zeller and a second to Pacers for Jeremy Lamb and Goga Bitazde.

Pacers clear Lamb 10.5 million owed next year and get a guy who can help them now in the playoffs behind Turner/Sabonis. Opens cap space for them this summer and gives them a Hoosier to replace Victor Oladipo.

Hornets sacrifice cap space this summer, but add a solid young big and a wing who can improve our bench unit.

Zeller per 36 last year: 17/11/2.5 on 52% shooting.

Thoughts?

[Scoot McGroot]

Oh, no thanks. Even if we clear Lamb/Goga off the books for next year (and wouldn't re-sign Cody), we'd only be around $8m under the cap, which means we'd actually operate over the cap and have the same MLE/BAE to use to sign people as we would if we didn't make this deal. So, fiscally, it's not really a benefit. It adds salary this year, to clear a little salary next year, but doesn't really make us better, especially as Cody is out injured right now, too.

I doubt Indy would trade Goga just to get out of Lamb's small salary now that we solved the Oladipo situation and have no luxury tax concerns in the offseason in any way. Plus, with Warren out, we actually need Lamb when he returns shortly.

We're really ok with Jakarr Sampson as a backup/emergency center. Really, if you wanted to interest us, you'd have to find a reliable pure PF, not another C to interest us. Plus, they'd have to have long-term value to us. Just being a Hoosier doesn't automatically make it worthwhile for us. I like Zeller as a player, and his strength is really in screening, but if we're going to have another pure C, we're likely to keep the guy that has a sky high potential in Goga, though admittedly a much lower floor than Cody.

[pacerfan1984]

This is joke right?

[JMAC3]

Zeller is the better player today when compared to Goga, so I wasn't sure if you were wanting to improve your chances to make a run in the East this year. However, I do understand if you are thinking long-term on Goga having a higher ceiling.

I don't think Goga is worth a first rounder though based on being the 18th pick and having a pretty underwhelming rookie year. Not saying he doesn't have value, but based on how little he played, this injury and the fact he shot 46.7% for a center last year and 19% from three I think his value has gone down.

I was viewing Jeremy Lamb as a slightly negative trade asset at this point being under contract for 10.5 million next season. He is still a decent player, but I do not think he would fetch that much money this summer.

I was assuming this would open up more cap space for, especially after saving some money on Oladipo-LeVert swap.

[boomershadow]

Lamb's contract looks bad because he has been injured, and nobody injured is producing on the court what they should be to make their money.

He is not a bad player in general though, and we need wing depth bad right now. I am hoping he comes back looking decent.

[Scoot McGroot]

Zeller is the better player today when compared to Goga, so I wasn't sure if you were wanting to improve your chances to make a run in the East this year. However, I do understand if you are thinking long-term on Goga having a higher ceiling.

Cody's out a good amount of the year, and would be 3rd center for us right now, which we're comfortable with Jakarr Sampson as. The upgrade isn't huge this year. Not enough to give up the long-term upside of Goga.

I don't think Goga is worth a first rounder though based on being the 18th pick and having a pretty underwhelming rookie year. Not saying he doesn't have value, but based on how little he played, this injury and the fact he shot 46.7% for a center last year and 19% from three I think his value has gone down.

You may not. But Pritchard and Indy does. It means that no matter how much you want Goga or another young center for cheap to fill your long-term hole, the other team doesn't have to give you a bargain just because. We still value him highly.

I was viewing Jeremy Lamb as a slightly negative trade asset at this point being under contract for 10.5 million next season. He is still a decent player, but I do not think he would fetch that much money this summer.

I was assuming this would open up more cap space for, especially after saving some money on Oladipo-LeVert swap.

Whether or not he's a negative trade asset isn't relevant. We want him and need him as a player and really don't have to deal him. When healthy, he's paid pretty fair.

As for cap space, it would not open up any. We're over the cap for next season, and around $13m under the luxury tax with 2-4 roster spots to fill. If we deal Lamb and his $10.5m for Cody to not re-sign him, we end up only about $4m under the salary cap, which doesn't help terribly. We'd choose to use the MLE and BAE and not the cap space and the room exception. We'd just have one more hole to fill as a result.

[JMAC3]

Cody's out a good amount of the year, and would be 3rd center for us right now, which we're comfortable with Jakarr Sampson as. The upgrade isn't huge this year. Not enough to give up the long-term upside of Goga.

While I respect that you value of your own players, you talk about Jakarr Sampson, Aaron Holiday and Edmond Sumner as if they are core players that can be counted on and in reality they may not even be NBA players let alone guys you can count on.

Cody is far better than Sampson and Goga at this point. He is also going to be returning in about 2 weeks so I am not sure where you get that he is out a good amount of the year.

If Turner can play with Sabonis, I see no reason Turner could not play with Zeller.

Anyways it is clear you value Goga highly as an organization, will be interesting to see if he becomes anything more than a backup big who plays more than 15 minutes per game on your team.

I am not wild about trading an expiring for a big that has shown very little at the NBA level and backup wing that hurts our future cap space, just thought it was worth discussing. Thanks for the input.

[Scoot McGroot]

Cody's out a good amount of the year, and would be 3rd center for us right now, which we're comfortable with Jakarr Sampson as. The upgrade isn't huge this year. Not enough to give up the long-term upside of Goga.

While I respect that you value of your own players, you talk about Jakarr Sampson, Aaron Holiday and Edmond Sumner as if they are core players that can be counted on and in reality they may not even be NBA players let alone guys you can count on.

Cody is far better than Sampson and Goga at this point. He is also going to be returning in about 2 weeks so I am not sure where you get that he is out a good amount of the year.

If Turner can play with Sabonis, I see no reason Turner could not play with Zeller.

Anyways it is clear you value Goga highly as an organization, will be interesting to see if he becomes anything more than a backup big who plays more than 15 minutes per game on your team.

I am not wild about trading an expiring for a big that has shown very little at the NBA level and backup wing that hurts our future cap space, just thought it was worth discussing. Thanks for the input.

I appreciate you visiting, but we have counted on Sampson, Holiday and Sumner over the course of 2 years, and we have yet to be disappointed by them. So, we’re comfortable counting on them going forward. If you watch the minutes, instead of just the box scores, you’d see why.

As for Cody, yup! He’s better than Sampson and Goga at this point! I agree! That’s not the question, nor the role. The center minutes are largely manned by Sabonis and Turner at this point. The 3rd center role right now, filled by Sampson while Goga is out injured, is around an 8 minute a night role. And we see a ton of talent in Goga. You obviously do, as you REALLY want him for Charlotte, judging by your attempt to get him with what you have. For 8-ish minutes a night, we just don’t see the need to invest heavily in giving up a wing we need ASAP and a young big that we’re high on. We’re really comfortable with the energy minutes of Sampson in that small role.

As for Cody’s injury, he’s due to be re-assessed in around 2 weeks. That doesn’t mean he’ll be back in 2 weeks.

But mostly, using a young player we value as a 1st round pick to move one year of salary, and save around $5m total in cash (Cody makes around $5m more this year than Lamb) is absolutely poor roster management, I’m sure you’d agree. If we were in a position to actually need Cody more, it could be interesting. But we’d be hurting ourselves at a position we need (wing depth while Warren is out) to add strength to a position we’re MORE than strong at, while giving up a talent we love, for no real long-term value. Heck, your plan requires Indy not re-signing Cody as basically the main incentive to save some future contract liability.

Right now, Cody is better than Goga and Jakarr. Well, he will be when he can play again in a couple more weeks. But that’s not what we need for a small role. Goga is an investment to develop over his entire rookie contract to possibly replace Myles when his contract runs out in 3 years. Cody would be emergency minutes this year and let walk next year unless he would re-sign for a vet minimum for a minimum type role. COULD he play with Turner? Sure. But we’d rather play a Justin Holiday at the 4 instead of Cody at the 5 and have some flexibility to defend more wing focused benches.

We have no need to dump Lamb and his salary now. In fact, it doesn’t help us. It opens up another hole, and doesn’t give us an additional tool to replace him. We can just use him this year and next and let him expire. Giving up Goga for a one year upgrade for his small role isn’t interesting either. Make sense?

[Tom White]

If Turner can play with Sabonis, I see no reason Turner could not play with Zeller.

Maybe because Sabonis is multiple times the player that Zeller is....or likely ever will be.

[basketballwacko2]

I'm not giving up Goga for Cody even if you're taking a useless Lamb. Goga is gonna be a good player and he's only 21.

[Topofthekey]

Doug has been an excellent bucket getter for the Pacers off the bench this season

Even so, he's "only" averaging 11.8 ppg

Lamb averaged 12.5 ppg in that role last season, though he also played slightly more minutes

Lamb is far from a bad contract that needs to be excised

Once he returns and starts playing under Bjorkgren's system, he will absolutely have positive trade value again

I am reluctant to trade Lamb straight up for Zeller, let alone throwing in Goga for free

[winter_mute_13]

It's not a horrible idea IMO, but on the other hand I don't see the burning need for the Pacers. In the short term, the lack is more on a 3/4 type forward than another center, and in the longer term, I don't think Lamb's extra year presents a problem anymore. That CHA second would have to be very enticing.

[Scoot McGroot]

It's not a horrible idea IMO, but on the other hand I don't see the burning need for the Pacers. In the short term, the lack is more on a 3/4 type forward than another center, and in the longer term, I don't think Lamb's extra year presents a problem anymore. That CHA second would have to be very enticing.

Charlotte’s 2nd this year is owed to New York. Charlotte owns Brooklyn’s and the Clipper’s 2nd’s this year.

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

Goga's ceiling is super high, no way we go for this.

Maybe Goga reaches his potential, and maybe he doesn't, but learning behind Turner and Domas should be huge for him. He really has all the skills needed to be the best of both Turner and Domas. Of course, he's really going to have to stay healthy and put in the work to make that happen, so who knows, but regardless, the Pacers aren't going to sell super low on him.

[JMAC3]

This is how I see the team and the order of value on your team based on age, production, contract situation.

Sabonis- Best player easily and great contract
Brogdon - borderline all-star when things are going right, locked up on fair contract for 3 yrs
LeVert- fair contract and in his prime
Turner- super solid and locked up 3 years
Justin Holiday- great value at just 6 million per over next three years
Warren- probably underpaid, but will get significant pay raise on next deal
Goga Bitazde- has potential, but hasn't really shown much
McDermott- maybe slightly underpaid
Lamb- probably slightly overpaid, but can still provide solid production, probably lost his starting role when everyone is healthy
McConnell- not a bad player, free agent after this year and he might get a surprising offer from another team.
Aaron Holiday- surprised he is already 24, thought he was younger. seems like a decent backup, but also probably easily replaceable.
Lecque- still just 20, had a lot of hype a few years ago
Sumner- might be the next Garrett Temple of the league or might be overseas in a year
Cassius Stanley- Like his upside, but was pretty terrible at Duke
Sampson- classic NBA journeyman
Martin- probably should be on a 2way
Bowen- on a two way


While I understand based on your current team roster and rotations you do not see yourself utilizing a player like Cody Zeller and that is fine. My vision when I offered the trade was more so for the playoffs and I thought that Zeller could play Center with Sabonis still playing the 4. Then when you have Turner on the floor, just put Zeller in the Sabonis role on offense and defense and let Myles continue doing what he normally does. I am not making the comparison that Zeller is the same level of player as Sabonis because he isn't close, but I think he can coexist with both of them.

My guess is that it is going to be extremely difficult for Goga to hit his ceiling when he is only getting 8-15 minutes per game (exceeded 20 mins only 3 times last year) and did not have a game when he shot double digit fg attempts. His value might be better in a trade, not saying it has to be this exact trade, but the longer he is relegated to this role the lower his value will be long-term. With Turner and Sabonis signed long-term I just don't see a path for Goga to break out on the Pacers. Even once Goga is ready to get paid he will be free agent when both Sabonis and Turner are free agents so it will be even less likely Pacer retain all three.

[Scoot McGroot]

This is how I see the team and the order of value on your team based on age, production, contract situation.

Sabonis- Best player easily and great contract
Brogdon - borderline all-star when things are going right, locked up on fair contract for 3 yrs
LeVert- fair contract and in his prime
Turner- super solid and locked up 3 years
Justin Holiday- great value at just 6 million per over next three years
Warren- probably underpaid, but will get significant pay raise on next deal
Goga Bitazde- has potential, but hasn't really shown much
McDermott- maybe slightly underpaid
Lamb- probably slightly overpaid, but can still provide solid production, probably lost his starting role when everyone is healthy
McConnell- not a bad player, free agent after this year and he might get a surprising offer from another team.
Aaron Holiday- surprised he is already 24, thought he was younger. seems like a decent backup, but also probably easily replaceable.
Lecque- still just 20, had a lot of hype a few years ago
Sumner- might be the next Garrett Temple of the league or might be overseas in a year
Cassius Stanley- Like his upside, but was pretty terrible at Duke
Sampson- classic NBA journeyman
Martin- probably should be on a 2way
Bowen- on a two way


While I understand based on your current team roster and rotations you do not see yourself utilizing a player like Cody Zeller and that is fine. My vision when I offered the trade was more so for the playoffs and I thought that Zeller could play Center with Sabonis still playing the 4. Then when you have Turner on the floor, just put Zeller in the Sabonis role on offense and defense and let Myles continue doing what he normally does. I am not making the comparison that Zeller is the same level of player as Sabonis because he isn't close, but I think he can coexist with both of them.

My guess is that it is going to be extremely difficult for Goga to hit his ceiling when he is only getting 8-15 minutes per game (exceeded 20 mins only 3 times last year) and did not have a game when he shot double digit fg attempts. His value might be better in a trade, not saying it has to be this exact trade, but the longer he is relegated to this role the lower his value will be long-term. With Turner and Sabonis signed long-term I just don't see a path for Goga to break out on the Pacers. Even once Goga is ready to get paid he will be free agent when both Sabonis and Turner are free agents so it will be even less likely Pacer retain all three.

Could probably put Warren up ahead of Levert, McConnell and Aaron Holiday right under Justin Holiday, but nothing crazy off. Though, I’m not sure it really matters.

Otherwise, you’re absolutely right that Cody is good enough he could play in that role. The issue is that in the playoffs, the rotations don’t get deeper, they get shorter. If we play 8-9 man rotations, I’m not sure I see Cody getting minutes with a healthy lineup. Brogdon, Levert, Warren, Myles, and Sabonis, obviously, with McConnell (though his lack of long range shooting may neutralize him in the playoffs again), Justin, McDermott, and Aaron getting run, too. We’ll likely see Justin and Warren play some small ball 4 in the playoffs for change of pace, and Turner and Sabonis would get the bulk of the minutes at the 5. It’s not that Cody is bad, at all. I rather like him. It’s just that we don’t really have a need for him to make our 3rd center spot so much better right now, at the cost of the future with Goga.

As for Goga being limited in his spot, you’re right in some regards. But there’s also a belief that we may not be able to keep Turner/Sabonis when Turner hits free agency in 3 summers. We can use him for now, and they combine to equal about 1 max salary spot, but if Sabonis is up for a massive extension, it may be hard to keep Turner, too. Goga being a restricted free agent and ready to re-sign would be a great card in our back pocket, especially if we’ve developed him to that point. Really, I think our comfort in, and valuing of, Goga is really what made us willing to deal Turner for Hayward this past offseason.

[JMAC3]

Realistically if I were the Pacers I would be trying to consolidate some of my assets and get another big name guy to add to the core of Sabonis, Turner, LeVert and Brogdon.

The East is really not that strong this year, Nets may need a year to figure everything out.

Some Combination of Warren, McDermott, Goga, Lamb and picks could probably get you a really good player.

Beal, Lowry, McCollum, Hield or Lavine would all really take your team to a whole new dangerous level. Obviously, they wouldn't all cost the same price, but like you mentioned depth isn't as valuable in playoffs and I think the Pacers are at a level they need to be thinking how do we win the East right now while Brogdon, Sabonis and LeVert are all on value contracts.

[basketballwacko2]

Realistically if I were the Pacers I would be trying to consolidate some of my assets and get another big name guy to add to the core of Sabonis, Turner, LeVert and Brogdon.

The East is really not that strong this year, Nets may need a year to figure everything out.

Some Combination of Warren, McDermott, Goga, Lamb and picks could probably get you a really good player.

Beal, Lowry, McCollum, Hield or Lavine would all really take your team to a whole new dangerous level. Obviously, they wouldn't all cost the same price, but like you mentioned depth isn't as valuable in playoffs and I think the Pacers are at a level they need to be thinking how do we win the East right now while Brogdon, Sabonis and LeVert are all on value contracts.

First there is no way Indiana is getting Beal, too expensive and the Wiz would want an arm and leg, the best player to swap for him would have been Oladipo and picks, but the Pacers gifted him to the Rockets for a couple 2nds and a injured LeVert. Lowry is 36 yrs old, McCollum and Hield are over paid and Lavine is a one dimensional no defense playing mess. Put him on a good team and watch him implode. The only reason Lavine puts up numbers like he does is that the Bulls are one step above a GLeague team.

[Topofthekey]

This is how I see the team and the order of value on your team based on age, production, contract situation.

Sabonis- Best player easily and great contract
Brogdon - borderline all-star when things are going right, locked up on fair contract for 3 yrs
LeVert- fair contract and in his prime
Turner- super solid and locked up 3 years
Justin Holiday- great value at just 6 million per over next three years
Warren- probably underpaid, but will get significant pay raise on next deal
Goga Bitazde- has potential, but hasn't really shown much
McDermott- maybe slightly underpaid
Lamb- probably slightly overpaid, but can still provide solid production, probably lost his starting role when everyone is healthy
McConnell- not a bad player, free agent after this year and he might get a surprising offer from another team.
Aaron Holiday- surprised he is already 24, thought he was younger. seems like a decent backup, but also probably easily replaceable.
Lecque- still just 20, had a lot of hype a few years ago
Sumner- might be the next Garrett Temple of the league or might be overseas in a year
Cassius Stanley- Like his upside, but was pretty terrible at Duke
Sampson- classic NBA journeyman
Martin- probably should be on a 2way
Bowen- on a two way


While I understand based on your current team roster and rotations you do not see yourself utilizing a player like Cody Zeller and that is fine. My vision when I offered the trade was more so for the playoffs and I thought that Zeller could play Center with Sabonis still playing the 4. Then when you have Turner on the floor, just put Zeller in the Sabonis role on offense and defense and let Myles continue doing what he normally does. I am not making the comparison that Zeller is the same level of player as Sabonis because he isn't close, but I think he can coexist with both of them.

My guess is that it is going to be extremely difficult for Goga to hit his ceiling when he is only getting 8-15 minutes per game (exceeded 20 mins only 3 times last year) and did not have a game when he shot double digit fg attempts. His value might be better in a trade, not saying it has to be this exact trade, but the longer he is relegated to this role the lower his value will be long-term. With Turner and Sabonis signed long-term I just don't see a path for Goga to break out on the Pacers. Even once Goga is ready to get paid he will be free agent when both Sabonis and Turner are free agents so it will be even less likely Pacer retain all three.

Do you mean value in terms of how Pacers sees them, or how other teams see them?

Because if it's the former, I will say that Myles needs to go higher, a lot higher

To an extent, I personally may be more open to trading Sabonis ahead of Turner

Sabonis is pretty great, and the team's offense flows through him. But Turner is the single most important player holding the defense together for the Pacers. There are plenty of players who can get an offense going, but not that many who can prop up a team's defense like Turner does. In Pacers' last game without Myles, the team's defense was noticeably much weaker. They suffered their first blow out loss of the season

[Topofthekey]

Realistically if I were the Pacers I would be trying to consolidate some of my assets and get another big name guy to add to the core of Sabonis, Turner, LeVert and Brogdon.

The East is really not that strong this year, Nets may need a year to figure everything out.

Some Combination of Warren, McDermott, Goga, Lamb and picks could probably get you a really good player.

Beal, Lowry, McCollum, Hield or Lavine would all really take your team to a whole new dangerous level. Obviously, they wouldn't all cost the same price, but like you mentioned depth isn't as valuable in playoffs and I think the Pacers are at a level they need to be thinking how do we win the East right now while Brogdon, Sabonis and LeVert are all on value contracts.

Yes, Pacers certainly don't mind a good consolidation trade

But good consolidation trades are difficult to come by

No, I don't see Goga + Lamb into Zeller as a consolidation

But besides that, if you have any other ideas to consolidate some combination of Warren / Lamb / McDermott / anyone really into one better player overall, yes, that may be something that Pacers would be interested in