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Moving Forward

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Moving Forward 

Post#1 » by Pacercoltboiler » Tue May 11, 2021 9:38 pm

I love that we are playing hard at the end, but I can't help taking a peak ahead. I have huge respect for the way McConnell is playing, and I would keep him as a starter. Myles has come a long way, but I just don't think we can sit Sabonis. Finally, LeVert has impressed and shown he can be the man. I'd start these three and try to add a crazy defensive wing, like a prime Iguodala, and a stout defender at 4, a Rodman type. If we add two great defenders who are not lost on the offensive end, what do you think of making McConnell, LeVert, and Sabonis as the core? We would need a ball dominant guy to come off the bench when LeVert sits, and if Warren is willing to come off the bench, he would be perfect.
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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#2 » by Topofthekey » Tue May 11, 2021 11:39 pm

I don't think LeVert is a consistently good enough player yet

He's in the middle of a hot streak right now, so that makes him look like a keeper, but I predict that he will soon hit a slump, and people will start talking about trading him

To me, LeVert is a sell high candidate

I hope he has a good showing in the play in games/playoffs, and then Pacers can package him in a trade for a star

Happy to be proven wrong of course. If he ends up staying and becoming the star that we need, I'll be more than happy with that


Edit:
On the topic of moving forward

I think Jalen Green has star potential. I'm hoping that our pick moves into the top 4 so that we can select him. Failing that, I'm hoping that the Wolves pick conveys to the Warriors at #4/5, and if Jalen Green is available when the Warriors are up, I hope to see some kind of trade involving one of our big, Myles or Domas, for Jalen Green
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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#3 » by Wizop » Wed May 12, 2021 1:14 am

We turned town draft pick deals for PG. I don't see us making one now. At this point Bjorkgren may be the one to go and for a 2nd year in a row we'll see what a new coach does with the same starters plus Warren.

Goga, Sumner, and Aaron all improved. Martin and Brissett were unexpectedly good. Our first will be higher than usual. McConnell should return. Suddenly I'm okay if McDermott gets an offer above our budget.l

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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#4 » by Pacers Forever » Wed May 12, 2021 1:20 am

Topofthekey wrote:I don't think LeVert is a consistently good enough player yet

He's in the middle of a hot streak right now, so that makes him look like a keeper, but I predict that he will soon hit a slump, and people will start talking about trading him

To me, LeVert is a sell high candidate

I hope he has a good showing in the play in games/playoffs, and then Pacers can package him in a trade for a star

Happy to be proven wrong of course. If he ends up staying and becoming the star that we need, I'll be more than happy with that


Edit:
On the topic of moving forward

I think Jalen Green has star potential. I'm hoping that our pick moves into the top 4 so that we can select him. Failing that, I'm hoping that the Wolves pick conveys to the Warriors at #4/5, and if Jalen Green is available when the Warriors are up, I hope to see some kind of trade involving one of our big, Myles or Domas, for Jalen Green


I agree that LeVert is not the answer. He's a role player who can get his own shot, but doesn't consistently convert. The Pacers roster is made up of role players and young developmental types. Depending on what kind of Warren comes back if it's a healthy one then I favor the core being Sabonis, Turner, and Warren. Warren coming off the bench would work for me if they could trade for a defensive 4 who can score some and rebound.

The problem the Pacers have had recently is no super star. Sabonis was an all star and closest thing to a double double. Too many good players.

8 Good talent: LeVert, Brogdon, Warren, Turner, J. Holiday, McDermott, McConnell, and Lamb.

8 Development squad: Goga, Sumner, Brissett, A Holiday, Martin, Stanley, Brimah, and Jakkar.

When you break down the roster it's not a strong enough squad experience wise or talent wise to compete for more than a low level playoff spot. Lucky they play as good as they do together. Maybe more depth than other teams, but just not enough big quality players as you see on contenders. Definitely need more than just a draft pick for next year.
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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#5 » by Wizop » Wed May 12, 2021 2:30 am

Pacers Forever wrote:8 Good talent: LeVert, Brogdon, Warren, Turner, J. Holiday, McDermott, McConnell, and Lamb.

8 Development squad: Goga, Sumner, Brissett, A Holiday, Martin, Stanley, Brimah, and Jakkar.


You left out Sabonis. 9 good players.

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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#6 » by Pacers Forever » Wed May 12, 2021 2:54 am

Wizop wrote:
Pacers Forever wrote:8 Good talent: LeVert, Brogdon, Warren, Turner, J. Holiday, McDermott, McConnell, and Lamb.

8 Development squad: Goga, Sumner, Brissett, A Holiday, Martin, Stanley, Brimah, and Jakkar.


You left out Sabonis. 9 good players.

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Kinda did as I meant to list him as the 1 all star player on the team. I think his game is above anyone else's talent currently.
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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#7 » by OnFire » Wed May 12, 2021 4:50 am

Love this group. But if I had to reconfigure the roster, I'll look to deal everyone else except Myles. He's the only real defender this team has. His skill set isn't easily duplicated. That being said, I'll look to deal Domas for the best value we can get for him, maybe for the likes of Michael Porter, Jr, or Jaren Jackson, Jr.
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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#8 » by MalagaBulls » Wed May 12, 2021 10:41 am

Bulls fan in peace. What kind of package would you be looking for to part with Brogdon?
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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#9 » by Wizop » Wed May 12, 2021 1:10 pm

MalagaBulls wrote:Bulls fan in peace. What kind of package would you be looking for to part with Brogdon?


Williams and Satoransky is a legal trade. any deal would have to include a quality PF.
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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#10 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed May 12, 2021 1:45 pm

MalagaBulls wrote:Bulls fan in peace. What kind of package would you be looking for to part with Brogdon?


It would have to at least include Williams. Probably more value, too. Really hard to say.
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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#11 » by Pacercoltboiler » Wed May 12, 2021 3:52 pm

OnFire wrote:Love this group. But if I had to reconfigure the roster, I'll look to deal everyone else except Myles. He's the only real defender this team has. His skill set isn't easily duplicated. That being said, I'll look to deal Domas for the best value we can get for him, maybe for the likes of Michael Porter, Jr, or Jaren Jackson, Jr.


I love Myles, and he has developed a lot. Pritchard said without a shot blocker, it is a lay up drill, but I'm not sure I buy into this anymore. Domas gets so many assists and easy baskets for others and his rebounding is useful, so he isn't just a one trick pony. I think I'd surround him with a couple of defenders instead of funneling everyone into a shot blocker.
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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#12 » by Pacercoltboiler » Wed May 12, 2021 3:57 pm

Pacers Forever wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:I don't think LeVert is a consistently good enough player yet

He's in the middle of a hot streak right now, so that makes him look like a keeper, but I predict that he will soon hit a slump, and people will start talking about trading him

To me, LeVert is a sell high candidate

I hope he has a good showing in the play in games/playoffs, and then Pacers can package him in a trade for a star

Happy to be proven wrong of course. If he ends up staying and becoming the star that we need, I'll be more than happy with that


Edit:
On the topic of moving forward

I think Jalen Green has star potential. I'm hoping that our pick moves into the top 4 so that we can select him. Failing that, I'm hoping that the Wolves pick conveys to the Warriors at #4/5, and if Jalen Green is available when the Warriors are up, I hope to see some kind of trade involving one of our big, Myles or Domas, for Jalen Green


I agree that LeVert is not the answer. He's a role player who can get his own shot, but doesn't consistently convert. The Pacers roster is made up of role players and young developmental types. Depending on what kind of Warren comes back if it's a healthy one then I favor the core being Sabonis, Turner, and Warren. Warren coming off the bench would work for me if they could trade for a defensive 4 who can score some and rebound.

The problem the Pacers have had recently is no super star. Sabonis was an all star and closest thing to a double double. Too many good players.

8 Good talent: LeVert, Brogdon, Warren, Turner, J. Holiday, McDermott, McConnell, and Lamb.

8 Development squad: Goga, Sumner, Brissett, A Holiday, Martin, Stanley, Brimah, and Jakkar.

When you break down the roster it's not a strong enough squad experience wise or talent wise to compete for more than a low level playoff spot. Lucky they play as good as they do together. Maybe more depth than other teams, but just not enough big quality players as you see on contenders. Definitely need more than just a draft pick for next year.


Is their a few players you would build around? Do you see a core moving forward? We may never have superstars, so I think we would should try to become extremely deep. Whatever we become, I hope we do not have more than one guy who needs to hold the ball at length on the floor at a time. Currently, Brogdon, Warren, and LaVert all need to hang onto the ball, and I feel it is a problem having them on the floor at the same time.
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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#13 » by Tom White » Wed May 12, 2021 3:57 pm

Pacercoltboiler wrote:I think I'd surround him with a couple of defenders instead of funneling everyone into a shot blocker.


I'm not sure a lot of "funneling" is going on anyway. It's kind of hard to funnel a player's movement when you are guarding him from behind.

Kind of like how people used to say George Hill was funneling players into Hibbert. He was basically just trying to catch up to his man after his man had lost him.
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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#14 » by Topofthekey » Wed May 12, 2021 7:38 pm

MalagaBulls wrote:Bulls fan in peace. What kind of package would you be looking for to part with Brogdon?

Are you looking to move Zach Lavine?

If not, then Patrick Williams + 2021 FRP + 2023 FRP
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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#15 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed May 12, 2021 8:45 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
MalagaBulls wrote:Bulls fan in peace. What kind of package would you be looking for to part with Brogdon?

Are you looking to move Zach Lavine?

If not, then Patrick Williams + 2021 FRP + 2023 FRP


Chicago gave up multiple firsts for Vucevic. Can’t deal a first until 2025 at the earliest, I believe.
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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#16 » by Scoot McGroot » Wed May 12, 2021 8:47 pm

Pacercoltboiler wrote:
Pacers Forever wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:I don't think LeVert is a consistently good enough player yet

He's in the middle of a hot streak right now, so that makes him look like a keeper, but I predict that he will soon hit a slump, and people will start talking about trading him

To me, LeVert is a sell high candidate

I hope he has a good showing in the play in games/playoffs, and then Pacers can package him in a trade for a star

Happy to be proven wrong of course. If he ends up staying and becoming the star that we need, I'll be more than happy with that


Edit:
On the topic of moving forward

I think Jalen Green has star potential. I'm hoping that our pick moves into the top 4 so that we can select him. Failing that, I'm hoping that the Wolves pick conveys to the Warriors at #4/5, and if Jalen Green is available when the Warriors are up, I hope to see some kind of trade involving one of our big, Myles or Domas, for Jalen Green


I agree that LeVert is not the answer. He's a role player who can get his own shot, but doesn't consistently convert. The Pacers roster is made up of role players and young developmental types. Depending on what kind of Warren comes back if it's a healthy one then I favor the core being Sabonis, Turner, and Warren. Warren coming off the bench would work for me if they could trade for a defensive 4 who can score some and rebound.

The problem the Pacers have had recently is no super star. Sabonis was an all star and closest thing to a double double. Too many good players.

8 Good talent: LeVert, Brogdon, Warren, Turner, J. Holiday, McDermott, McConnell, and Lamb.

8 Development squad: Goga, Sumner, Brissett, A Holiday, Martin, Stanley, Brimah, and Jakkar.

When you break down the roster it's not a strong enough squad experience wise or talent wise to compete for more than a low level playoff spot. Lucky they play as good as they do together. Maybe more depth than other teams, but just not enough big quality players as you see on contenders. Definitely need more than just a draft pick for next year.


Is their a few players you would build around? Do you see a core moving forward? We may never have superstars, so I think we would should try to become extremely deep. Whatever we become, I hope we do not have more than one guy who needs to hold the ball at length on the floor at a time. Currently, Brogdon, Warren, and LaVert all need to hang onto the ball, and I feel it is a problem having them on the floor at the same time.


Warren didn’t hang onto the ball that much. He scored, and finished positions, but he didn’t dominate possessions or hold the ball. I wouldn’t worry that much at all.
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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#17 » by Topofthekey » Wed May 12, 2021 11:01 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
MalagaBulls wrote:Bulls fan in peace. What kind of package would you be looking for to part with Brogdon?

Are you looking to move Zach Lavine?

If not, then Patrick Williams + 2021 FRP + 2023 FRP


Chicago gave up multiple firsts for Vucevic. Can’t deal a first until 2025 at the earliest, I believe.

Oops, I forgot that

Not sure there's a deal to be had then

He's probably looking to form a big 3 of some sort in Vucevic, Lavine, and Brogdon, by offering up several other smaller pieces from Bulls to acquire Brogdon

I don't think we want to break Brogdon up into smaller pieces
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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#18 » by 8305 » Sat May 15, 2021 12:12 pm

Team needs to move on from the experiment of Turner and Sabonis playing big minutes together. Can they play together? Yes, but the combination does not create a meaningful competitive advantage. I’ve heard others say Sabonis gives the team more upside but that he is more difficult to build around and I agree. I’d argue we should go with the upside and try to play/assemble pieces that compensate for Sabonis weaknesses and play off his strengths.

Most on our board insist that any Turner trade has to return a multi skilled 4. I’m less inclined to insist on this. I’d be ok with Warren and Brissett manning the 4 if we can get better defending off the dribble at the other three positions. With that in mind the Brogdan Levert guard tandem simply won’t work. Of the two I think Brogdan is the keeper. He has chemistry with Sabonis and is the better defender (just needs to guard bigger guys).

Could we move Turner and Levert and get more dynamic?
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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#19 » by Wizop » Sat May 15, 2021 2:00 pm

I want to draft a 4. Assume we do and that he gets 12 minutes a game and Brissett gets 18. Any other combination of 30 is equivalent. (If we draft a 3, give Brissett 24 and 6 more to Turbonis) That leaves 18 for Turner at 4. Give him 15 at 5 for a total of 33 and that leaves another 33 at 5 for Sabonis. Both play 33 yet only 18 of those have them on the floor together. Fewer still if Goga is figured in.

Now these numbers might be off but the point is Turner and Sabonis can both play significant minutes without playing together for all of them. All you have to do is have a rotation instead of a hockey substitution with a full 5 man 2nd unit.

I don't see a Brogdon LeVert problem. However if you do, a similar answer is available. Either can get minutes with Sumner, TJ, Lamb, or a Holiday.

And if a Lamb deal doesn't free up money for Doug and Warren is 100%, signing Doug is no longer a priority for me.

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Re: Moving Forward 

Post#20 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat May 15, 2021 2:06 pm

My only issue with a Brogdon/Levert combo at the guard spots is simply that Levert is either not a good defender, or is an inattentive defender most of the time. And, neither can guard smaller guards. Obviously, you could put a Sumner with them (I’m not sold that McConnell is a really good defender as much as he’s an opportunistic defender), but then that means you can’t play a Warren/Turner/Sabonis type front court, either, as one would have to come to the bench for Sumner/Levert/Brogdon to play together.

I do think we have potential conflicts with Brogdon/Levert and Sabonis/Turner, but I don’t think we have to break both of them up ASAP. It’s possible that just breaking up one of those conflicts would help a ton with the other conflict. Or, if we make a move at the 3, and get a super defender kind of guy, it’s possible that takes care of both, in a way.

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