Image

Moving Forward

Moderators: pacers33granger, Grang33r, pacerfan, Jake0890, boomershadow

User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 32,558
And1: 5,975
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#21 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat May 15, 2021 2:07 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:My only issue with a Brogdon/Levert combo at the guard spots is simply that Levert is either not a good defender, or is an inattentive defender most of the time. And, neither can guard smaller guards. Obviously, you could put a Sumner with them (I’m not sold that McConnell is a really good defender as much as he’s an opportunistic defender), but then that means you can’t play a Warren/Turner/Sabonis type front court, either, as one would have to come to the bench for Sumner/Levert/Brogdon to play together.

I do think we have potential conflicts with Brogdon/Levert and Sabonis/Turner, but I don’t think we have to break both of them up ASAP. It’s possible that just breaking up one of those conflicts would help a ton with the other conflict. Or, if we make a move at the 3, and get a super defender kind of guy, it’s possible that takes care of both, in a way.



BUT…..

I could also see Pritchard getting upset and just blowing the whole thing up, too :lol:

There’s not really a move we could make that would shock me this offseason, other than adding another pure 5 to the roster.
Tom White
Pro Prospect
Posts: 842
And1: 430
Joined: Aug 27, 2001
Location: Indiana

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#22 » by Tom White » Sat May 15, 2021 2:14 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:There’s not really a move we could make that would shock me this offseason, other than adding another pure 5 to the roster.


If there is a pure center with a history of injuries out there.........Yeah, I could see KP going for that. :lol:
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 32,558
And1: 5,975
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#23 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat May 15, 2021 2:16 pm

Tom White wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:There’s not really a move we could make that would shock me this offseason, other than adding another pure 5 to the roster.


If there is a pure center with a history of injuries out there.........Yeah, I could see KP going for that. :lol:


Man, I’m usually willing to give leeway, but I don’t think I could excuse that again! :lol: If we take Alperen Sengun in this draft without trading away at least 2 of Turner/Sabonis/Goga, I really can’t possibly excuse another 5 :P
User avatar
Wizop
RealGM
Posts: 11,787
And1: 2,045
Joined: Jun 15, 2003
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Contact:
   

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#24 » by Wizop » Sat May 15, 2021 3:16 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:My only issue with a Brogdon/Levert combo at the guard spots is simply that Levert is either not a good defender, or is an inattentive defender most of the time. And, neither can guard smaller guards.


You always match down when the opponent has a small guard. You don't have to only use one rotation.

Sent from my phone.
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 32,558
And1: 5,975
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#25 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat May 15, 2021 3:23 pm

Wizop wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:My only issue with a Brogdon/Levert combo at the guard spots is simply that Levert is either not a good defender, or is an inattentive defender most of the time. And, neither can guard smaller guards.


You always match down when the opponent has a small guard. You don't have to only use one rotation.

Sent from my phone.


So bench one of Brogdon or Levert? I’m not understanding what your suggestion is.
User avatar
Wizop
RealGM
Posts: 11,787
And1: 2,045
Joined: Jun 15, 2003
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Contact:
   

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#26 » by Wizop » Sat May 15, 2021 3:25 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:If we take Alperen Sengun in this draft without trading away at least 2 of Turner/Sabonis/Goga, I really can’t possibly excuse another 5 :P


Can't you leave a FRP in Europe? That said, I'm on Franz Wagner and Kai Jones.

Sent from my phone.
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 32,558
And1: 5,975
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#27 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat May 15, 2021 3:29 pm

Wizop wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:If we take Alperen Sengun in this draft without trading away at least 2 of Turner/Sabonis/Goga, I really can’t possibly excuse another 5 :P


Can't you leave a FRP in Europe? That said, I'm on Franz Wagner and Kai Jones.

Sent from my phone.


One could, but you have to extend the rookie contract to keep the rights, and it’s up to the player if they stay overseas or not. I believe Sengun is coming over right away. But also, I can’t imagine a draft stash of a 1st round player for the Pacers. Adding a player in the 10-16 range is probably just too valuable this year to risk it. And there’s just not really any great candidates in terms of value in that range for a draft stash.
User avatar
Wizop
RealGM
Posts: 11,787
And1: 2,045
Joined: Jun 15, 2003
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Contact:
   

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#28 » by Wizop » Sat May 15, 2021 3:35 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:So bench one of Brogdon or Levert? I’m not understanding what your suggestion is.


Bench sounds absolute. I'm just against set rotations and substituting by the clock.

Matching up is a topic of its own. Slick tended to match the opponent's decisions. Vogel stayed big and dared the opponents to stay small.

I'd suggest flexibility. If a small guard is killing you and you have a stopper on the bench, put him in.

Sent from my phone.
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 32,558
And1: 5,975
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#29 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat May 15, 2021 4:17 pm

Wizop wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:So bench one of Brogdon or Levert? I’m not understanding what your suggestion is.


Bench sounds absolute. I'm just against set rotations and substituting by the clock.

Matching up is a topic of its own. Slick tended to match the opponent's decisions. Vogel stayed big and dared the opponents to stay small.

I'd suggest flexibility. If a small guard is killing you and you have a stopper on the bench, put him in.

Sent from my phone.


Only 5 start, though. So, small guard in the opponents starting lineup….who do you start? Do you let that player run wild for the first 8-12 minutes? Do you pull Brogdon or Levert in the first minute or two? Do you simply start someone else to avoid letting the opponent run wild?
Topofthekey
Veteran
Posts: 2,682
And1: 1,003
Joined: Nov 18, 2017

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#30 » by Topofthekey » Sat May 15, 2021 5:39 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Wizop wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:So bench one of Brogdon or Levert? I’m not understanding what your suggestion is.


Bench sounds absolute. I'm just against set rotations and substituting by the clock.

Matching up is a topic of its own. Slick tended to match the opponent's decisions. Vogel stayed big and dared the opponents to stay small.

I'd suggest flexibility. If a small guard is killing you and you have a stopper on the bench, put him in.

Sent from my phone.


Only 5 start, though. So, small guard in the opponents starting lineup….who do you start? Do you let that player run wild for the first 8-12 minutes? Do you pull Brogdon or Levert in the first minute or two? Do you simply start someone else to avoid letting the opponent run wild?

I think you start the game by doing what you want to do

If it becomes obvious that your game plan isn't effective, or your players are struggling to execute your game plan, then you make adjustments based on what's happening
Pacers Forever
Sophomore
Posts: 171
And1: 27
Joined: Nov 21, 2020
     

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#31 » by Pacers Forever » Sat May 15, 2021 5:47 pm

Sometimes I feel like this roster is full of conflicting talent or positions. I really think the roster needs re-worked. I like most of our talent but if it can’t efficiently and productively produce wins playing together then we need to get a better fit. Even though we’re seeing some of our youth gain experience this team still lacks talent. 17 of 29 teams this year have a better record than the Pacers. That tells me they have better coaches or better talent maybe both.
8305
Analyst
Posts: 3,449
And1: 299
Joined: Jun 11, 2009
     

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#32 » by 8305 » Sat May 15, 2021 8:44 pm

Assume we start our five best players going into next season.
That’s Turner, Sabonis, Warren, Levert and Brogdan. Is there a slower starting 5 in the league?
If Pritchard doesn’t make changes to avoid this he should be fired.
My suggestion of moving Turner and Levert seems like a minimal change that hopefully avoids a big problem.
Topofthekey
Veteran
Posts: 2,682
And1: 1,003
Joined: Nov 18, 2017

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#33 » by Topofthekey » Sun May 16, 2021 6:30 am

8305 wrote:Assume we start our five best players going into next season.
That’s Turner, Sabonis, Warren, Levert and Brogdan. Is there a slower starting 5 in the league?
If Pritchard doesn’t make changes to avoid this he should be fired.
My suggestion of moving Turner and Levert seems like a minimal change that hopefully avoids a big problem.

What do you hope to get for them
8305
Analyst
Posts: 3,449
And1: 299
Joined: Jun 11, 2009
     

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#34 » by 8305 » Sun May 16, 2021 11:42 am

Topofthekey wrote:
8305 wrote:Assume we start our five best players going into next season.
That’s Turner, Sabonis, Warren, Levert and Brogdan. Is there a slower starting 5 in the league?
If Pritchard doesn’t make changes to avoid this he should be fired.
My suggestion of moving Turner and Levert seems like a minimal change that hopefully avoids a big problem.

What do you hope to get for them


Turner and Levert to Golden State for Wiggins and the Minn 2021 1st
Seems reasonable value and upgrades us defensively at a wing spot.
User avatar
Wizop
RealGM
Posts: 11,787
And1: 2,045
Joined: Jun 15, 2003
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Contact:
   

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#35 » by Wizop » Sun May 16, 2021 12:48 pm

8305 wrote:Assume we start our five best players going into next season.
That’s Turner, Sabonis, Warren, Levert and Brogdan. Is there a slower starting 5 in the league?


I'm more familiar with past Pacer teams than the league generally. Seems to be we've had 50 win teams that were slower than this one. I have trouble seeing speed as the missing piece. Now not getting back on defense is an issue.

Sent from my phone.
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 32,558
And1: 5,975
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#36 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun May 16, 2021 1:51 pm

Wizop wrote:
8305 wrote:Assume we start our five best players going into next season.
That’s Turner, Sabonis, Warren, Levert and Brogdan. Is there a slower starting 5 in the league?


I'm more familiar with past Pacer teams than the league generally. Seems to be we've had 50 win teams that were slower than this one. I have trouble seeing speed as the missing piece. Now not getting back on defense is an issue.

Sent from my phone.


Sure, we’ve won with slow and steady in the past. But the league overall has VASTLY accelerated and sped up. Transitions and speed, and transition defense are much more major parts of the game. The last 3 years have had average possessions per game of 99, 100, and 100. The Paul George era had an average possessions of 92-94 per 48 minutes. The early 2000’s runs were 90-92 possessions per 48. Our mid-90’s championship competition era dropped down as low as 89 possessions per 48 minutes. We did win in those eras, but the game has vastly sped up since then.
User avatar
Scoot McGroot
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 32,558
And1: 5,975
Joined: Feb 16, 2005
     

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#37 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun May 16, 2021 1:53 pm

8305 wrote:
Topofthekey wrote:
8305 wrote:Assume we start our five best players going into next season.
That’s Turner, Sabonis, Warren, Levert and Brogdan. Is there a slower starting 5 in the league?
If Pritchard doesn’t make changes to avoid this he should be fired.
My suggestion of moving Turner and Levert seems like a minimal change that hopefully avoids a big problem.

What do you hope to get for them


Turner and Levert to Golden State for Wiggins and the Minn 2021 1st
Seems reasonable value and upgrades us defensively at a wing spot.


Wiggins is a defensive upgrade on Levert, for sure. But also losing Turner would be a huge defensive downgrade, too. In theory, I like the pick, but consider that it would be a player very soon. Would you deal Turner/Levert for Wiggins/Barnes, knowing that you’d be adding enough salary to the books that you would definitely force out one of McConnell/McDermott, maybe both?
User avatar
boomershadow
Forum Mod - Pacers
Forum Mod - Pacers
Posts: 4,353
And1: 4,735
Joined: Jul 14, 2014
Location: Naptown
   

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#38 » by boomershadow » Sun May 16, 2021 1:56 pm

Wizop wrote:
8305 wrote:Assume we start our five best players going into next season.
That’s Turner, Sabonis, Warren, Levert and Brogdan. Is there a slower starting 5 in the league?


I'm more familiar with past Pacer teams than the league generally. Seems to be we've had 50 win teams that were slower than this one. I have trouble seeing speed as the missing piece. Now not getting back on defense is an issue.

Sent from my phone.


There have been slower Pacers teams, but the league in general is speeding up. That lineup also contains the same problem we have had all year with Myles being the only actually good defender.

I wanna move Brogdon.
User avatar
Wizop
RealGM
Posts: 11,787
And1: 2,045
Joined: Jun 15, 2003
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Contact:
   

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#39 » by Wizop » Sun May 16, 2021 3:12 pm

Scoot Mcgroot wrote:We did win in those eras, but the game has vastly sped up since then.


And yet this year we're second in the league in fast break points. We're hardly the old double plodder team we once were.

Sent from my phone.
User avatar
Wizop
RealGM
Posts: 11,787
And1: 2,045
Joined: Jun 15, 2003
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Contact:
   

Re: Moving Forward 

Post#40 » by Wizop » Sun May 16, 2021 3:15 pm

boomershadow wrote:I wanna move Brogdon.


Of our starting 4 plus Warren, I'd be most comfortable moving Brogdon, but I would be happy keeping them all. I'm definitely not in the Pritchard must be fired if he doesn't do X camp.

Sent from my phone.

Return to Indiana Pacers