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McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m

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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#21 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Aug 5, 2021 12:48 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:Don’t be surprised if this gets wrapped into the big 5 team deal with Westbrook to the Lakers and Dinwiddie to Washington. SA got roped in to eat the contract of Hutchinson, so they need to touch another team. Brooklyn needs to touch another team. If we rope in the McDermott signing into a S&T, then San Antonio is satisfied, and since Indy would be getting a $7.3m TPE for free, we’d probably pay Brooklyn $1.1m, the cash minimum for a 3 team deal to satisfy the touch rules, and complete the deal.


Well, never mind. Looks like SA and Brooklyn are closing the loop by SA sending the draft rights to 2015 1st round pick Nikola Milutinov to Brooklyn. With that, all teams touching requirements are met.

We may still try and turn Doug into a S&T, but that would be separate.
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#22 » by Wizop » Thu Aug 5, 2021 2:23 pm

I'm not sure what value another trade exemption would be. we need to lower payroll a bit, not find a legal way to increase it.
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#23 » by Scoot McGroot » Thu Aug 5, 2021 2:28 pm

Wizop wrote:I'm not sure what value another trade exemption would be. we need to lower payroll a bit, not find a legal way to increase it.


It would be good for one full year, so through the draft and start of next year’s free agency. It would simply be a tool to make salary matching somewhat easier, and a useful tool to have in trades. Having TPE’s is better than not having TPE’s, nearly no matter what.

We may need to lower payroll right now, but that doesn’t mean we’ll always need to lower payroll. If we make a midseason deal, TPE’s help.
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#24 » by Pacers Forever » Fri Aug 6, 2021 6:45 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Wizop wrote:I'm not sure what value another trade exemption would be. we need to lower payroll a bit, not find a legal way to increase it.


It would be good for one full year, so through the draft and start of next year’s free agency. It would simply be a tool to make salary matching somewhat easier, and a useful tool to have in trades. Having TPE’s is better than not having TPE’s, nearly no matter what.

We may need to lower payroll right now, but that doesn’t mean we’ll always need to lower payroll. If we make a midseason deal, TPE’s help.


Scoot If I understand right we can get a TPE when we trade a player ? Or would trigger that ? A difference in salary going out and not coming back in ?
Scoot can you please explain what the TPE does once acquired ? Maybe an example real or fake would enlighten me to how in the future they work to the Pacers advantage. Thanks
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#25 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Aug 6, 2021 1:31 pm

Pacers Forever wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Wizop wrote:I'm not sure what value another trade exemption would be. we need to lower payroll a bit, not find a legal way to increase it.


It would be good for one full year, so through the draft and start of next year’s free agency. It would simply be a tool to make salary matching somewhat easier, and a useful tool to have in trades. Having TPE’s is better than not having TPE’s, nearly no matter what.

We may need to lower payroll right now, but that doesn’t mean we’ll always need to lower payroll. If we make a midseason deal, TPE’s help.


Scoot If I understand right we can get a TPE when we trade a player ? Or would trigger that ? A difference in salary going out and not coming back in ?
Scoot can you please explain what the TPE does once acquired ? Maybe an example real or fake would enlighten me to how in the future they work to the Pacers advantage. Thanks


Good question, PF. Yeah, a TPE is created when a team makes a trade and receives less salary back than they send out. It’s also called a “non-simultaneous trade”. Basically, it allows a team up to a year to “complete a trade”. So, in this case, if we S&T Doug to San Antonio, we would create a TPE equal to Doug’s trade outgoing trade salary (probably $7.3m due to base year compensation rules, which is a whole other thing :lol: ) plus $100k, for a total of $7.433m TPE if we didn’t take back anyone from SA. Now, the thing about a TPE is that it’s an asset, and it can last for up to a year. They’re consumed by absorbing salary, and created. You cannot add a $7.43m TPE to, say, Lamb, and get back someone making up $17.93m. A TPE stands on its own in that way. However, its an asset that can be nurtured, utilized, and grown, to be larger in the future. Say we deal Jeremy later in the year for someone that makes $7.25m. Now, that could be used to just match Jeremy, like normal, in a trade. OR, we could use up our Doug TPE to absorb that $7.25m player, and then technically we’d be trading Jeremy into nothing, and create a new, larger TPE of $10.6m that would exist for a full calendar year from when a trade might happen. Hypothetically, say next offseason, we trade a big man for two guys, one that makes about $10.5m, and another that makes about $3m. In theory, we could use the Jeremy TPE to absorb that $10.5m guy, and then trade Myles (hypothetically for this example) and only “take back” the $3m player, and create a $15m TPE that would then have another year before it expires. Now, even if you’re over the cap (but not near the tax), you’d normally just have the MLE to sign a player, but by growing this asset, you’d be able to then ALSO have a $15m TPE to use to add to the roster.

TPE’s can be used in a couple different ways. It can be used to trade for a player that fits solely into the TPE. It can’t be used to straight sign a player, but you could work with the incumbent team to receive a player INTO the TPE via S&T. A TPE can also be used to claim a player off of waivers that would fit into that TPE size completely.

So, it may not help us immediately. It may not help us this season, but it’s essentially a very low cost asset that we may be able to grow and eventually REALLY help us out down the road.
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#26 » by Wizop » Fri Aug 6, 2021 2:02 pm

We had two TE's. I don't know if any of this is being used to get the draft rights to Jackson.

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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#27 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Aug 6, 2021 2:32 pm

Wizop wrote:We had two TE's. I don't know if any of this is being used to get the draft rights to Jackson.

$2,808,844

Expires Aug. 09, 2021 - T. Leaf trade to OKC


and

$4,796,296

Expires Nov. 22, 2021 - V. Oladipo trade to HOU


Jackson is being traded as his draft rights, having $0 as his salary for matching purposes. We don’t have to use a TPE to acquire him. If he was signed, and then traded, we would have to match salary (and thus use a TPE), but we also would have to wait 30 days after he was signed by his previous team to be traded.
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#28 » by Topofthekey » Fri Aug 6, 2021 8:54 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Pacers Forever wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
It would be good for one full year, so through the draft and start of next year’s free agency. It would simply be a tool to make salary matching somewhat easier, and a useful tool to have in trades. Having TPE’s is better than not having TPE’s, nearly no matter what.

We may need to lower payroll right now, but that doesn’t mean we’ll always need to lower payroll. If we make a midseason deal, TPE’s help.


Scoot If I understand right we can get a TPE when we trade a player ? Or would trigger that ? A difference in salary going out and not coming back in ?
Scoot can you please explain what the TPE does once acquired ? Maybe an example real or fake would enlighten me to how in the future they work to the Pacers advantage. Thanks


Good question, PF. Yeah, a TPE is created when a team makes a trade and receives less salary back than they send out. It’s also called a “non-simultaneous trade”. Basically, it allows a team up to a year to “complete a trade”. So, in this case, if we S&T Doug to San Antonio, we would create a TPE equal to Doug’s trade outgoing trade salary (probably $7.3m due to base year compensation rules, which is a whole other thing :lol: ) plus $100k, for a total of $7.433m TPE if we didn’t take back anyone from SA. Now, the thing about a TPE is that it’s an asset, and it can last for up to a year. They’re consumed by absorbing salary, and created. You cannot add a $7.43m TPE to, say, Lamb, and get back someone making up $17.93m. A TPE stands on its own in that way. However, its an asset that can be nurtured, utilized, and grown, to be larger in the future. Say we deal Jeremy later in the year for someone that makes $7.25m. Now, that could be used to just match Jeremy, like normal, in a trade. OR, we could use up our Doug TPE to absorb that $7.25m player, and then technically we’d be trading Jeremy into nothing, and create a new, larger TPE of $10.6m that would exist for a full calendar year from when a trade might happen. Hypothetically, say next offseason, we trade a big man for two guys, one that makes about $10.5m, and another that makes about $3m. In theory, we could use the Jeremy TPE to absorb that $10.5m guy, and then trade Myles (hypothetically for this example) and only “take back” the $3m player, and create a $15m TPE that would then have another year before it expires. Now, even if you’re over the cap (but not near the tax), you’d normally just have the MLE to sign a player, but by growing this asset, you’d be able to then ALSO have a $15m TPE to use to add to the roster.

TPE’s can be used in a couple different ways. It can be used to trade for a player that fits solely into the TPE. It can’t be used to straight sign a player, but you could work with the incumbent team to receive a player INTO the TPE via S&T. A TPE can also be used to claim a player off of waivers that would fit into that TPE size completely.

So, it may not help us immediately. It may not help us this season, but it’s essentially a very low cost asset that we may be able to grow and eventually REALLY help us out down the road.

I learnt something new

Scoot's posts regarding the CBA, like this detail about TPE's, are quality content
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#29 » by Scoot McGroot » Sat Aug 7, 2021 2:18 am

Topofthekey wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Pacers Forever wrote:
Scoot If I understand right we can get a TPE when we trade a player ? Or would trigger that ? A difference in salary going out and not coming back in ?
Scoot can you please explain what the TPE does once acquired ? Maybe an example real or fake would enlighten me to how in the future they work to the Pacers advantage. Thanks


Good question, PF. Yeah, a TPE is created when a team makes a trade and receives less salary back than they send out. It’s also called a “non-simultaneous trade”. Basically, it allows a team up to a year to “complete a trade”. So, in this case, if we S&T Doug to San Antonio, we would create a TPE equal to Doug’s trade outgoing trade salary (probably $7.3m due to base year compensation rules, which is a whole other thing :lol: ) plus $100k, for a total of $7.433m TPE if we didn’t take back anyone from SA. Now, the thing about a TPE is that it’s an asset, and it can last for up to a year. They’re consumed by absorbing salary, and created. You cannot add a $7.43m TPE to, say, Lamb, and get back someone making up $17.93m. A TPE stands on its own in that way. However, its an asset that can be nurtured, utilized, and grown, to be larger in the future. Say we deal Jeremy later in the year for someone that makes $7.25m. Now, that could be used to just match Jeremy, like normal, in a trade. OR, we could use up our Doug TPE to absorb that $7.25m player, and then technically we’d be trading Jeremy into nothing, and create a new, larger TPE of $10.6m that would exist for a full calendar year from when a trade might happen. Hypothetically, say next offseason, we trade a big man for two guys, one that makes about $10.5m, and another that makes about $3m. In theory, we could use the Jeremy TPE to absorb that $10.5m guy, and then trade Myles (hypothetically for this example) and only “take back” the $3m player, and create a $15m TPE that would then have another year before it expires. Now, even if you’re over the cap (but not near the tax), you’d normally just have the MLE to sign a player, but by growing this asset, you’d be able to then ALSO have a $15m TPE to use to add to the roster.

TPE’s can be used in a couple different ways. It can be used to trade for a player that fits solely into the TPE. It can’t be used to straight sign a player, but you could work with the incumbent team to receive a player INTO the TPE via S&T. A TPE can also be used to claim a player off of waivers that would fit into that TPE size completely.

So, it may not help us immediately. It may not help us this season, but it’s essentially a very low cost asset that we may be able to grow and eventually REALLY help us out down the road.

I learnt something new

Scoot's posts regarding the CBA, like this detail about TPE's, are quality content


Thanks!
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#30 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun Aug 8, 2021 2:19 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=21

There it is. Turned into a S&T where we paid essentially a 2nd and a 2nd round swap (I assume the 2nd coming back is heavily protected enough we never see it and was just necessary for the trade. Looks like we’ll get a $7.333m TPE to use for 1 full calendar year before it potentially expires.
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#31 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun Aug 8, 2021 2:27 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=21
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#32 » by Tom White » Sun Aug 8, 2021 3:30 pm

I suppose we guessed this was in the works. Just a matter of figuring out the details. Good to have another TPE available. Whether it gets used or not, it opens up some options.
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#33 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun Aug 8, 2021 4:22 pm

Tom White wrote:I suppose we guessed this was in the works. Just a matter of figuring out the details. Good to have another TPE available. Whether it gets used or not, it opens up some options.


Yup. If you have a pretty good working relationship with the other team, it usually works out easy. Doesn’t have to be expensive, but a reasonably payment, like here of essentially a 2nd.

And yup. It may never been used, but it opens up options, and options are always worth having. :dontknow:
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#34 » by Nuntius » Sun Aug 8, 2021 4:40 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21


So, we get a TPE out of this, a protected 2nd rounder in '23 and we're giving out a protected 2nd rounder in '23 and the right to swap picks in '26. Is that right?

So, the amount of picks given and received is equal, right?
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#35 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun Aug 8, 2021 4:42 pm

Nuntius wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21


So, we get a TPE out of this, a protected 2nd rounder in '23 and we're giving out a protected 2nd rounder in '23 and the right to swap picks in '26. Is that right?

So, the amount of picks given and received is equal, right?


Maybe? I assume that SA is sending us an unlikely to convey protected pick (maybe top 55 protected), while the protected pick we’re sending them may just be “top 40” or “top 45” protected. Then, SA has the “right to swap”. So, realistically, we’re likely sending them a 2nd and maybe trading down in 2nds in another draft.
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#36 » by Tom White » Sun Aug 8, 2021 4:48 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:So, realistically, we’re likely sending them a 1st, and maybe trading down in 1sts in another draft.


But the Pacers news bit only talked about swapping 2nd rounders? I can't figure out where you are coming up with the 1st round pick stuff?
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#37 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun Aug 8, 2021 4:50 pm

Tom White wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:So, realistically, we’re likely sending them a 1st, and maybe trading down in 1sts in another draft.


But the Pacers news bit only talked about swapping 2nd rounders? I can't figure out where you are coming up with the 1st round pick stuff?


Just absolutely lost my mind for a second and mis-typed out of habits :lol:

No 1sts involved.
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#38 » by Nuntius » Sun Aug 8, 2021 5:01 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21


So, we get a TPE out of this, a protected 2nd rounder in '23 and we're giving out a protected 2nd rounder in '23 and the right to swap picks in '26. Is that right?

So, the amount of picks given and received is equal, right?


Maybe? I assume that SA is sending us an unlikely to convey protected pick (maybe top 55 protected), while the protected pick we’re sending them may just be “top 40” or “top 45” protected. Then, SA has the “right to swap”. So, realistically, we’re likely sending them a 2nd and maybe trading down in 2nds in another draft.


Ah, gotcha. If that's the best then we best make good use of that TPE.
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#39 » by Scoot McGroot » Sun Aug 8, 2021 5:07 pm

Nuntius wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
Nuntius wrote:
So, we get a TPE out of this, a protected 2nd rounder in '23 and we're giving out a protected 2nd rounder in '23 and the right to swap picks in '26. Is that right?

So, the amount of picks given and received is equal, right?


Maybe? I assume that SA is sending us an unlikely to convey protected pick (maybe top 55 protected), while the protected pick we’re sending them may just be “top 40” or “top 45” protected. Then, SA has the “right to swap”. So, realistically, we’re likely sending them a 2nd and maybe trading down in 2nds in another draft.


Ah, gotcha. If that's the best then we best make good use of that TPE.


Sure. Even if we don’t (I mean, trades take two to tango), we at least have a lot more flexibility in our arsenal in deals. We’re probably going to see the TJ Leaf TPE expire today or tomorrow (I can’t remember which), but that’s ok. It’s out there in case we need it.
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Re: McDermott Signs with Spurs 3/$42m 

Post#40 » by Wizop » Sun Aug 8, 2021 7:18 pm

We also have an Oladipo TE. Good that we waited to announce a sign and trade. All the league deadline investigations involve sign and trades. They are too complex to work out in hours. The wink wink free agent deadline stuff appears to be talk between an agent and one team.

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