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Rockets are trying to trade him

I think Wall is still a good player. Massively overpaid yes, but still a good player. Hopefully he'll be able to provide better defense on opposing PGs? And while we're at it, why not pick up Christian Wood as well

Instead of thinking of it in terms of who are we going to give up, I start with the lineup that we want after the trade and work my way backwards

Let's say the aim is to end up with

Domas, Goga
Wood, Jackson
Warren, Holiday
Brogdon, Duarte
Wall, TJ

I think this looks good?

So looks like the trade is Myles, LeVert, and Lamb for Wall and Wood

Seems like the value is fine for the Rockets. If anything, they probably owe us some compensation for eating Wall's contract?

If Rockets don't want LeVert, they can probably route him to Magic for Gary Harris (expiring)

If this goes through, we can then follow up in the off-season by trading Brogdon and allowing Duarte to start

Any thoughts?

Topofthekey wrote:So looks like the trade is Myles, LeVert, and Lamb for Wall and Wood

I'm inclined to say no to any trade for a guy making more than our highest current contracts and if we are moving on from Myles or Damos I want a 4 not a 1.

Not in this lifetime.

Wizop wrote:

Topofthekey wrote:So looks like the trade is Myles, LeVert, and Lamb for Wall and Wood

I'm inclined to say no to any trade for a guy making more than our highest current contracts and if we are moving on from Myles or Damos I want a 4 not a 1.

Wood is more of a 5/4, but I think he should be able to coexist with Domas? He's pretty mobile and his 3pt stats look good

I'll expand on my earlier, very short comment. Besides thinking the guy is a problem child, he is also not a player you want to rely on being available to play. Here are his games played in recent years.
2018 - 41
2019 - 32
2020 - 0 - As in ZERO
2021 - 40

You really want to add that to our already injury plagued roster?

For one, it’s not a legal deal. We’re not sending out enough salary to match. Second, it adds almost $14m to the books in salary, puts Indy about $12m into the tax, a tax payment of almost $18m, and causes Indy to forfeit their share of luxury tax payout this year (likely around $6-8m overall), causing Indy a fiscal payment of almost $40m.

And next year? $8m from the tax line with 12 players signed, which means Warren is for sure gone, and no MLE is used to fill out the roster.

Also, I doubt Houston would use Wood to dump Wall. Houston already decided they don’t want Caris Levert, which is why we were able to swap Oladipo for him last year. And, they already invested in Sengun, Theis, and Garuba this summer as their center platoon. I don’t see a way to make this work.

And most of all, I just don’t see Wall as a want or a positive at all here.

Tom White wrote:I'll expand on my earlier, very short comment. Besides thinking the guy is a problem child, he is also not a player you want to rely on being available to play. Here are his games played in recent years.
2018 - 41
2019 - 32
2020 - 0 - As in ZERO
2021 - 40

You really want to add that to our already injury plagued roster?

We're also sending out LeVert though

Also, Scoot pointed out that not enough salary is being sent out, so we probably need to send Warren out as well

At that point, we'll basically be sending two players with injury concerns for one in return

The problem with using Warren as salary filler though is we'll be losing value, and it leaves a hole at 3

Maybe it'll work out if we're also getting a serviceable 3 in return?

Something like

Myles + Warren + LeVert + Lamb for Wall + Wood + House + compensation (some kind of pick?)

That gives us

Domas, Goga
Wood, Jackson
House, Holiday
Brogdon, Duarte
Wall, TJ

Plus whatever compensation we're getting from Rockets

Scoot McGroot wrote:For one, it’s not a legal deal. We’re not sending out enough salary to match. Second, it adds almost $14m to the books in salary, puts Indy about $12m into the tax, a tax payment of almost $18m, and causes Indy to forfeit their share of luxury tax payout this year (likely around $6-8m overall), causing Indy a fiscal payment of almost $40m.

And next year? $8m from the tax line with 12 players signed, which means Warren is for sure gone, and no MLE is used to fill out the roster.

Also, I doubt Houston would use Wood to dump Wall. Houston already decided they don’t want Caris Levert, which is why we were able to swap Oladipo for him last year. And, they already invested in Sengun, Theis, and Garuba this summer as their center platoon. I don’t see a way to make this work.

And most of all, I just don’t see Wall as a want or a positive at all here.

Is it legal now that a Warren for House swap is also included?

I think LeVert can be routed to another team for a useless expiring, like Gary Harris. It shouldn't cost much to do this, I don't think

Yes, I've also considered that Myles and Warren aren't too attractive to the Rockets, so maybe the solution is to route Myles and Warren to another team who can provide value (to the Rockets) for them?

Here is a short quiz that I think is appropriate at this time:

Friends don't let friends...

A. Drive drunk
B. Pee on an electric fence
C. Trade for John Wall
D. All of the above

Topofthekey wrote:

Tom White wrote:I'll expand on my earlier, very short comment. Besides thinking the guy is a problem child, he is also not a player you want to rely on being available to play. Here are his games played in recent years.
2018 - 41
2019 - 32
2020 - 0 - As in ZERO
2021 - 40

You really want to add that to our already injury plagued roster?

We're also sending out LeVert though

Also, Scoot pointed out that not enough salary is being sent out, so we probably need to send Warren out as well

At that point, we'll basically be sending two players with injury concerns for one in return

The problem with using Warren as salary filler though is we'll be losing value, and it leaves a hole at 3

Maybe it'll work out if we're also getting a serviceable 3 in return?

Something like

Myles + Warren + LeVert + Lamb for Wall + Wood + House + compensation (some kind of pick?)

That gives us

Domas, Goga
Wood, Jackson
House, Holiday
Brogdon, Duarte
Wall, TJ

Plus whatever compensation we're getting from Rockets

Scoot McGroot wrote:For one, it’s not a legal deal. We’re not sending out enough salary to match. Second, it adds almost $14m to the books in salary, puts Indy about $12m into the tax, a tax payment of almost $18m, and causes Indy to forfeit their share of luxury tax payout this year (likely around $6-8m overall), causing Indy a fiscal payment of almost $40m.

And next year? $8m from the tax line with 12 players signed, which means Warren is for sure gone, and no MLE is used to fill out the roster.

Also, I doubt Houston would use Wood to dump Wall. Houston already decided they don’t want Caris Levert, which is why we were able to swap Oladipo for him last year. And, they already invested in Sengun, Theis, and Garuba this summer as their center platoon. I don’t see a way to make this work.

And most of all, I just don’t see Wall as a want or a positive at all here.

Is it legal now that a Warren for House swap is also included?

It would be legal, yes. However, you still have Indy taking on over $3m, and going into the tax by almost $2m. And now, you're doing this with a 4 for 3 deal, so 14 guys on the roster, and you can't reasonably "dump someone" to get under the tax, as 14 is the legal minimum. And, again, you've still only got $8m under the tax to fill out next year's roster and the final 3 roster spots. And, if Houston is giving up Wood, they're not paying anything else to make that swap. That's probably more than they're willing to include to begin with. If they don't value a Myles/Warren/Levert, then they wouldn't pay extra to route them elsewhere.

With the added salary, luxury tax payments, and losing out on luxury tax redistributions, we're looking at paying out around $15m in extra cash out of ownership pockets to make this deal. Does this deal make us better? No. It surely makes us much more expensive, though.

I think LeVert can be routed to another team for a useless expiring, like Gary Harris. It shouldn't cost much to do this, I don't think

Maybe, but probably not. Levert doesn't fit with the few expirings that are his size to match. Orlando has Fultz/Suggs they want as lead ball handling guards, with Cole Anthony there, too. Toronto has Dragic to deal, but no use for Levert. There's just not a whole lot of expirings there.

Yes, I've also considered that Myles and Warren aren't too attractive to the Rockets, so maybe the solution is to route Myles and Warren to another team who can provide value (to the Rockets) for them?

If you think other teams would pay for Myles and Warren, why not look at who those teams are, and what they would return? They would surely be better fits to Indy than John Wall, and wouldn't completely hamstring us financially for the next 2 years.


Forget John Wall. If you want to deal Myles/Levert, just look around and see what they would possibly return, and consider that. Don't compound it with John Wall, whom we surely know is NOT a game changer any more. At a glance, I take Caris Levert and his contract over John Wall, by far. I get the Myles for Wood swap based on getting a guy to maybe play PF better? But we're also now losing Warren/Lamb for just House, and that's another huge downgrade, even if Warren doesn't return until the next calendar year (giving him around 40+ games to potentially play for us).

Otherwise, we KNEW coming into this season that we had a tough schedule to start. We know we haven't won in Toronto since March 1, 2013. We know that Warren is still taking the correct amount of time to recover from his injury last year (his original surgery was on Jan. 2 of this year, it hasn't yet been a full year, as originally theorized for recovery). We were surprised with Levert's back injury (and so was he, as he was fully practicing through it all summer). We're only 5 games into the season. Yesterday was pitiful to watch. I'd be highly surprised if Pritchard/Buchanan were willing to throw in the towel this quick. Give Carlisle some time to play through the roster. Hopefully we have Levert back soon. Hopefully Brogdon doesn't miss much time. It's still a learning curve, even if Carlisle has coached forever. What matters is how the team is playing from February on, not how it's playing right now. We started last year 6-2, and that didn't mean anything. It's possible we start this year 1-5 and it doesn't mean anything either.....or maybe it accurately predicts the rest of the way. We don't know.

Let's get some firm facts about this team out of the way, and in December or January, when new signings are eligible to be traded (clearing up half the league to fill in to trades), and see where we're headed then.

Scoot McGroot wrote:Otherwise, we KNEW coming into this season that we had a tough schedule to start. We know we haven't won in Toronto since March 1, 2013. We know that Warren is still taking the correct amount of time to recover from his injury last year (his original surgery was on Jan. 2 of this year, it hasn't yet been a full year, as originally theorized for recovery). We were surprised with Levert's back injury (and so was he, as he was fully practicing through it all summer). We're only 5 games into the season. Yesterday was pitiful to watch. I'd be highly surprised if Pritchard/Buchanan were willing to throw in the towel this quick. Give Carlisle some time to play through the roster. Hopefully we have Levert back soon. Hopefully Brogdon doesn't miss much time. It's still a learning curve, even if Carlisle has coached forever. What matters is how the team is playing from February on, not how it's playing right now. We started last year 6-2, and that didn't mean anything. It's possible we start this year 1-5 and it doesn't mean anything either.....or maybe it accurately predicts the rest of the way. We don't know.

Let's get some firm facts about this team out of the way, and in December or January, when new signings are eligible to be traded (clearing up half the league to fill in to trades), and see where we're headed then.

As painful as this start has been, agree with all of this. It's easy to get hyped about a new season, especially when we nearly made the playoffs with a disaster of a coach and a ton of missed games and now have a new, known, respected coach. But there was always going to be growing pains.

I think it's clear that this season will be an evaluation season in a lot of ways. Rick is 100% the coach for the next 4 years barring something insane. And Malcolm is one of the guards, for at least this year, but management clearly wants him here. The rest is kind of up in the air with the exception of the two rookies. The roster has been largely the same and if Rick can't make it work, then it's definitely the roster.

That said, the lack of effort and/or awareness at times from some players continues to be an issue under a 3rd coach and we all know that gambling with so many injury prone key guys every year just isn't going to work. Given history, it's doubtful we get one magically healthy year out of the current core. Some level of roster change is likely necessary.

pacers33granger wrote:That said, the lack of effort and/or awareness at times from some players continues to be an issue under a 3rd coach and we all know that gambling with so many injury prone key guys every year just isn't going to work. Given history, it's doubtful we get one magically healthy year out of the current core. Some level of roster change is likely necessary.

I think the first change to make is in the backcourt. The team needs better playmaking and defense at the 1 position. After that, better defense from the 4/3 positions. And if anybody wants to gift us an All NBA type player that would be nice

I think about burning my house down instead of cleaning it sometimes too.

Nah. I’m all for remaking the roster short of blowing it up like other teams do.

Hopefully later in the season some teams will get desperate to mix and match personnel and pay fair value or fair trade value to help both clubs.

Future wishes
I really hope the Pacers solve the point guard defense and play making position.

I really hope that the Pacers make the right decisions on two injured players going forward in LeVert and Warren.

I think they should trade Myles and end the Turbonis experiment. I want a more offensively skilled athletic player next to Domas who can cut without ball, has handles to drive, defends and rebounds such as John Collins, Tobias Harris, D Finny Smith, Bazley, but not necessarily them. Probably have to draft a future star next year like Toronto did with Barnes if our season is a disaster.

My untouchable players are Sabonis, Jackson, Duarte, and if proved healthy and plays great this season Warren. I’d like to keep Goga and develop him. Of course this is if they blow it up this off season.

Pacers Forever wrote:Nah. I’m all for remaking the roster short of blowing it up like other teams do.

Hopefully later in the season some teams will get desperate to mix and match personnel and pay fair value or fair trade value to help both clubs.

Future wishes
I really hope the Pacers solve the point guard defense and play making position.

I really hope that the Pacers make the right decisions on two injured players going forward in LeVert and Warren.

I think they should trade Myles and end the Turbonis experiment. I want a more offensively skilled athletic player next to Domas who can cut without ball, has handles to drive, defends and rebounds such as John Collins, Tobias Harris, D Finny Smith, Bazley, but not necessarily them. Probably have to draft a future star next year like Toronto did with Barnes if our season is a disaster.

My untouchable players are Sabonis, Jackson, Duarte, and if proved healthy and plays great this season Warren. I’d like to keep Goga and develop him. Of course this is if they blow it up this off season.

I understand, and don’t disagree, with most. However, what you’re describing in the bold is exactly what every team needs, and of which there’s really only a guy or two that fits that description. They’d be All NBA for sure, and would cost entirely too much to realistically acquire.

Scoot McGroot wrote:

Pacers Forever wrote:Nah. I’m all for remaking the roster short of blowing it up like other teams do.

Hopefully later in the season some teams will get desperate to mix and match personnel and pay fair value or fair trade value to help both clubs.

Future wishes
I really hope the Pacers solve the point guard defense and play making position.

I really hope that the Pacers make the right decisions on two injured players going forward in LeVert and Warren.

I think they should trade Myles and end the Turbonis experiment. I want a more offensively skilled athletic player next to Domas who can cut without ball, has handles to drive, defends and rebounds such as John Collins, Tobias Harris, D Finny Smith, Bazley, but not necessarily them. Probably have to draft a future star next year like Toronto did with Barnes if our season is a disaster.

My untouchable players are Sabonis, Jackson, Duarte, and if proved healthy and plays great this season Warren. I’d like to keep Goga and develop him. Of course this is if they blow it up this off season.

I understand, and don’t disagree, with most. However, what you’re describing in the bold is exactly what every team needs, and of which there’s really only a guy or two that fits that description. They’d be All NBA for sure, and would cost entirely too much to realistically acquire.

D
Yes so that’s why I’m thinking if they get that person it’s going to have to be in the draft if we’re picking early again. I understand it’s expensive to get a Tobias etc.

Back to the Houston ideas, forget John Wall. Eric Gordon might be more the guy. Even when he’s not hitting the 3, he’s still stretching the court, and he can defend the guard positions with strength. Health so obviously still an issue.