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Game 16 @ Detroit 7pm

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Re: Game 16 @ Detroit 7pm 

Post#21 » by Topofthekey » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:01 am

On the bright side, at least Carlisle is experimenting

I think Bjorkgren had already tightened the rotation to 8 players by this point last season
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Re: Game 16 @ Detroit 7pm 

Post#22 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:03 pm

Topofthekey wrote:On the bright side, at least Carlisle is experimenting

I think Bjorkgren had already tightened the rotation to 8 players by this point last season


Also, the whole league is having some weird back and forth play, too. We're only 3 games back of the 6th seed, and not having to play in the play-in tournament to make the playoffs. And it's only 12 games in to a full 82 game season, so still 66 games to make some things happen. Having these losses early in a season is a bit less frustrating, to me, than having them happen in the last month or two of the season, as they have been happening the last couple seasons. Still could happen again, too, but I'm hoping not.
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Re: Game 16 @ Detroit 7pm 

Post#23 » by Pacers Forever » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:05 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=21

If you can view the replies to his post there’s so many opinions on the current status of the Pacers.
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Re: Game 16 @ Detroit 7pm 

Post#24 » by Scoot McGroot » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:01 pm

This current lineup? The debilitating injury to Oladipo killed us. The roster construction was a GREAT fit around him. He and Brogdon were probably the best possible guard combination. Oladipo's defensive prowess on smaller guards would cover for Brogdon, whose size and strength would cover on bigger guards. There was enough creation and distribution between those two. Warren as an off ball bucket getter who could play good enough defense was a perfect "bail us out" kind of guy late in shot clocks. Turner and Sabonis have figured it out mostly between them. Trying to keep that roster together, but with Levert in place of prime Oladipo was a huge step down in quality, and overall in fit. Levert can't provide the defensive partnership that Brogdon needs. He's not the same type of creator or long-range shot maker. Getting Levert for Oladipo at his lowest value, and expiring and walking, was good value, but not necessarily a great fit. Realistically, I think that this team could be better if we could move Levert for a defender at PG that isn't a complete waste on offense. Maybe that's a DeJounte Murray (if he's not completely able to be game planned out of the playoffs due to his long range shooting). Maybe it's someone in the draft. Heck, even a young Eric Gordon could've been a bit of a fit. But there's not an easy match out there. And I don't think that Levert is a bad player. I just think he's not a natural fit with Brogdon.

But also, I think that if we could ever get the roster healthy together, it's a MUCH better roster. Having McConnell, Duarte, Justin, and others off the bench would be a HUGE upgrade over the past several years, and really allow the team to attack for 48 minutes, rather than just trying to hang on while burning out our starters.
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Re: Game 16 @ Detroit 7pm 

Post#25 » by Topofthekey » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:17 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:This current lineup? The debilitating injury to Oladipo killed us. The roster construction was a GREAT fit around him. He and Brogdon were probably the best possible guard combination. Oladipo's defensive prowess on smaller guards would cover for Brogdon, whose size and strength would cover on bigger guards. There was enough creation and distribution between those two. Warren as an off ball bucket getter who could play good enough defense was a perfect "bail us out" kind of guy late in shot clocks. Turner and Sabonis have figured it out mostly between them. Trying to keep that roster together, but with Levert in place of prime Oladipo was a huge step down in quality, and overall in fit. Levert can't provide the defensive partnership that Brogdon needs. He's not the same type of creator or long-range shot maker. Getting Levert for Oladipo at his lowest value, and expiring and walking, was good value, but not necessarily a great fit. Realistically, I think that this team could be better if we could move Levert for a defender at PG that isn't a complete waste on offense. Maybe that's a DeJounte Murray (if he's not completely able to be game planned out of the playoffs due to his long range shooting). Maybe it's someone in the draft. Heck, even a young Eric Gordon could've been a bit of a fit. But there's not an easy match out there. And I don't think that Levert is a bad player. I just think he's not a natural fit with Brogdon.

But also, I think that if we could ever get the roster healthy together, it's a MUCH better roster. Having McConnell, Duarte, Justin, and others off the bench would be a HUGE upgrade over the past several years, and really allow the team to attack for 48 minutes, rather than just trying to hang on while burning out our starters.

Very much agreed

An Oladipo-Brogdon combo is perfect. Or as perfect as realistically possible at least. They covered for each other's weaknesses, while letting each other's strength shine. Removing Oladipo from that duo effectively meant not only did the team lost Oladipo, they sort of "lost" Brogdon as well, at least the good/ideal version of him. The Brogdon that we're left with now is one that doesn't provide enough defense on quick guards, doesn't provide enough playmaking consistently, and tries to do too much by himself at times. These are all issues that wouldn't be an issue if his backcourt partner was Oladipo

It's the reason why I keep thinking that the problem is in the backcourt

LeVert and Brogdon aren't a good fit. One of them has to go. Possibly even both

They should rebuild the team, but not in the youth movement kind of sense

They should rebuild the team around Sabonis. Trade Brogdon and LeVert for guards who fit Sabonis' style. Warren and Myles are fine, but I can see the benefit of trading them for better fits as well. Warren being an injury prone player is a problem though. But maybe it wouldn't be such an issue if the guards weren't Brogdon and LeVert, who have their share of injuries

But that was a very good post Scoot, I kept nodding when reading it, you basically got to the root of the problem with the current team
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Re: Game 16 @ Detroit 7pm 

Post#26 » by Topofthekey » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:54 am

Pacers Forever wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21

If you can view the replies to his post there’s so many opinions on the current status of the Pacers.

My attention was drawn to some of the tweets that mention the mental makeup of the team

I think this is one major problem with the team right now

Because they don't tank for a high pick, or make big splashy FA signings, Pacers is a perpetual underdog team, whose goal is to stay relevant

This isn't the problem

The problem is, for underdog teams to find success, they need to fight like an underdog. They need to be bold, not wilt under pressure. They need to be willing to be scrappy, and find and take whatever edge they can get

I see some fire in Domas. But that's about it. Myles gets discouraged too easily, it feels. Brogdon is too stoic. LeVert looks like he just wants to have fun. These are not the type of personalities that are suited to being an underdog

The Pacer teams of Reggie's era were mostly underdogs too, but instead of rolling over they stepped up to their opponents and started trading punches, matching them blow for blow, even if they were up against the champion. That was the kind of personality the Reggie teams had

It looks like ever since Reggie retired, Pacers never had that type of personality again

I guess if there is one word I would use to sum up the problem with Pacers right, I'd say it's "mismatch"

Mismatch between player skillsets, and mismatch between team culture and team goals
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Re: Game 16 @ Detroit 7pm 

Post#27 » by davidfr94 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:04 am

Topofthekey wrote:
davidfr94 wrote:
8305 wrote:Looks like the offense grinds to halt when Levert and Brogdan are hunting shots. At the same time Sabonis and Turner lose energy when watching Levert and Brogdan dribble? I think Carlisle noted the team missing Duarte. Is there enough evidence to say Duarte loss is bigger than getting Levert back?
To me it says more about sabonis...
He had 5 turnovers. He has trouble scoring whenever he is defended by someone a bit strong or tall. Can't defend, can't shoot...
Imo, he kills our team on both side of the floor because he needs to be either paired with goga or Turner for us not to be killed on the defensive end.

We really have to make trades. I know we are always injured but at some point we have to stop looking for excuses and face reality : we lack talent.

Like vorda just said we have to trade sabonis now before teams realize how limited he is.

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I mean, Domas was great with Doug though

The thing about Domas is, it looks to me that whenever he catches the ball his first instinct is to locate where his teammates are and look for the cutter or open man

Doug was pretty good at moving without the ball, and he benefited a lot from receiving the passes from Domas. It's probably no coincidence that after averaging 13.6 PPG playing with Domas last season he's now averaging 10.4 PPG with the Spurs. Domas' assist stat too has dropped from 6.7 APG last season to 3.7 APG this season

To me, one of the problem with this year's iteration of Pacers is that whenever Domas catches the ball he glances at his teammates but the 4 other Pacer on the floor would be just standing there watching him

It's not that Domas is limited or anything, it's just that the current team does not come close to scratching the surface of the style of basketball that Domas plays

I'm pretty sure if you surround Domas with active cutters and lob threats like Aaron Gordon and Isaiah Jackson the offense is going to look much better. Athletic guards who are good at using screens like Zach Lavine will probably execute the PnR very well with Domas. I think even McCollum will be great here

But yea, the team is a bit of a mess. Too many injuries, poor fit, and not enough talent overall
Yeah obviously i was a bit frustrated after the loss.

I love sabonis but i just think that if he is supposed to be your best player you won't be a contender.

Let's say you get those offensive players that fits his style of play, is it going to change the fact that he is going to be abused defensively?

Imo his best role with the pacers was when he was playing behind thadeus young. I would rather have a "modern" power forward that can defend and shot the ball with Sabonis coming off the bench depending on matchup and taking advantage of his height and strenght against lesser players.
I just dont think he impacts the game that much.



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Re: Game 16 @ Detroit 7pm 

Post#28 » by davidfr94 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:12 am

Scoot McGroot wrote:This current lineup? The debilitating injury to Oladipo killed us. The roster construction was a GREAT fit around him. He and Brogdon were probably the best possible guard combination. Oladipo's defensive prowess on smaller guards would cover for Brogdon, whose size and strength would cover on bigger guards. There was enough creation and distribution between those two. Warren as an off ball bucket getter who could play good enough defense was a perfect "bail us out" kind of guy late in shot clocks. Turner and Sabonis have figured it out mostly between them. Trying to keep that roster together, but with Levert in place of prime Oladipo was a huge step down in quality, and overall in fit. Levert can't provide the defensive partnership that Brogdon needs. He's not the same type of creator or long-range shot maker. Getting Levert for Oladipo at his lowest value, and expiring and walking, was good value, but not necessarily a great fit. Realistically, I think that this team could be better if we could move Levert for a defender at PG that isn't a complete waste on offense. Maybe that's a DeJounte Murray (if he's not completely able to be game planned out of the playoffs due to his long range shooting). Maybe it's someone in the draft. Heck, even a young Eric Gordon could've been a bit of a fit. But there's not an easy match out there. And I don't think that Levert is a bad player. I just think he's not a natural fit with Brogdon.

But also, I think that if we could ever get the roster healthy together, it's a MUCH better roster. Having McConnell, Duarte, Justin, and others off the bench would be a HUGE upgrade over the past several years, and really allow the team to attack for 48 minutes, rather than just trying to hang on while burning out our starters.
Yeah totaly, it's a shame we couldn't see that team healthy.

I really thought we had a chance to fight for a place in the finals.

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Re: Game 16 @ Detroit 7pm 

Post#29 » by 8305 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:46 pm

The pieces on this team simply don't fit. On our best day there are half dozen teams in the East who arguably have better talent than us. You can get over the talent part if you can build something where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. That's impossible if when the talents and weaknesses of the players don't compliment one another. The two big lineup exposes us and the Brogdan/Levert backcourt combination doesn't fit. It appears to me that on most nights this will be more than this team can overcome.

I've suggested a trade (among others) of Myles Turner for Jerami Grant. A common response is that will that make us any better? This morning i'd respond could it make us any worse?
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Re: Game 16 @ Detroit 7pm 

Post#30 » by Topofthekey » Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:22 pm

8305 wrote:The pieces on this team simply don't fit. On our best day there are half dozen teams in the East who arguably have better talent than us. You can get over the talent part if you can build something where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. That's impossible if when the talents and weaknesses of the players don't compliment one another. The two big lineup exposes us and the Brogdan/Levert backcourt combination doesn't fit. It appears to me that on most nights this will be more than this team can overcome.

I've suggested a trade (among others) of Myles Turner for Jerami Grant. A common response is that will that make us any better? This morning i'd respond could it make us any worse?

In terms of bad fit among the starting five, I'd rank them like this

LeVert-Brogdon
LeVert-Domas
Brogdon-Domas
Myles-Domas

The two big combo isn't great, but it's also not what's causing the most problem for the team right now (in terms of fit)

I'd give a higher priority to breaking up LeVert+Brogdon than Myles-Domas

Depending on how the team is constructed, maybe even both LeVert and Brogdon has to go


Edit:
For example, they would instantly be a much better team this season if they traded LeVert and Brogdon for Chris Paul
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Re: Game 16 @ Detroit 7pm 

Post#31 » by 8305 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:35 pm

Topofthekey wrote:
8305 wrote:The pieces on this team simply don't fit. On our best day there are half dozen teams in the East who arguably have better talent than us. You can get over the talent part if you can build something where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. That's impossible if when the talents and weaknesses of the players don't compliment one another. The two big lineup exposes us and the Brogdan/Levert backcourt combination doesn't fit. It appears to me that on most nights this will be more than this team can overcome.

I've suggested a trade (among others) of Myles Turner for Jerami Grant. A common response is that will that make us any better? This morning i'd respond could it make us any worse?

In terms of bad fit among the starting five, I'd rank them like this

LeVert-Brogdon
LeVert-Domas
Brogdon-Domas
Myles-Domas

The two big combo isn't great, but it's also not what's causing the most problem for the team right now (in terms of fit)

I'd give a higher priority to breaking up LeVert+Brogdon than Myles-Domas

Depending on how the team is constructed, maybe even both LeVert and Brogdon has to go


Edit:
For example, they would instantly be a much better team this season if they traded LeVert and Brogdon for Chris Paul

The problem with splitting up Brogdan and Levert is Brogdan can’t be traded this year and Levert has no value. Might even be viewed as a negative contract. Don’t know that we’ve seen it this year but a couple years ago Brogdan and Domas running pick and roll was one of the better combinations in the NBA.
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Re: Game 16 @ Detroit 7pm 

Post#32 » by Topofthekey » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:12 am

8305 wrote:The problem with splitting up Brogdan and Levert is Brogdan can’t be traded this year and Levert has no value. Might even be viewed as a negative contract. Don’t know that we’ve seen it this year but a couple years ago Brogdan and Domas running pick and roll was one of the better combinations in the NBA.

Yea. I'd 10/10 trade LeVert for Jerami Grant, if KP can talk Pistons into doing it

Realistically though, I think the options are either to hope for LeVert to rehabilitate his trade value, or be less ambitious and trade LeVert for role players. I wonder if they can get Terrence Ross for him. Ross can hopefully duplicate some of whatever offense we hope to get from LeVert. Would the Bulls be open to moving Caruso for a LeVert based deal? I wonder what would we have to attach to make the deal happen

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