Shams: Pacers Moving toward Rebuild; Receptive to Trade Talks

[Scoot McGroot]

Though, if we had guard come to us in the draft, like you suggest, I could now see a similar argument for Hayward instead of Brogdon for much the same reasons. :dodgestomatoes: Though, Hayward would kind of have to play the 4, with Duarte at the 3 long term in that case.

If Hayward did not have Indiana ties, would people still have any high level of interest in him?

When speaking of Hayward vs Brogdon, aren't you talking about one injury plagued player vs another?

I'd like to see the team move away from those sorts of problems.

For me? Yeah. He’s a pretty dynamic, big wing. There’s only so many of those, and very few are as attainable as him.

But, there’s simply very few non injury risks in the nba. It’s really hard to find them, and they’re generally not acquirable. We had one in Justin Holiday, though.

[8305]

Though, if we had guard come to us in the draft, like you suggest, I could now see a similar argument for Hayward instead of Brogdon for much the same reasons. :dodgestomatoes: Though, Hayward would kind of have to play the 4, with Duarte at the 3 long term in that case.

If Hayward did not have Indiana ties, would people still have any high level of interest in him?

When speaking of Hayward vs Brogdon, aren't you talking about one injury plagued player vs another?

I'd like to see the team move away from those sorts of problems.

For me? Yeah. He’s a pretty dynamic, big wing. There’s only so many of those, and very few are as attainable as him.

But, there’s simply very few non injury risks in the nba. It’s really hard to find them, and they’re generally not acquirable. We had one in Justin Holiday, though.

I think there are a number of reasons Hayward would make more sense than Brogdan but, the most significant one he can function as a 4. And, if we aren’t getting one in the draft that position needs to be shored up in the short term.

[Topofthekey]

Much depends on the lottery, and what happens in the draft

It's really hard to theorise what's the next move right now, because so much can change depending on the team's draft position, and who's available

I've started warming up to the idea of playing Brogdon together with Haliburton, mainly due to Brogdon's ability to slide back to PG whenever Haliburton isn't on the court

Of course, there are question marks. The biggest one being, is Brogdon willing to take on an off ball role?

Didn't he leave the Bucks and come to Pacers because he wanted a point guard role?

Can he really embrace playing SG beside Haliburton? It would be a bit ugly if it turns out that he ends up taking turns being the PG with Haliburton. A bit like what happened whenever Domas had the ball. Brogdon mostly just turned into a bystander and watched. Not looking forward to a repeat of that

Also, Brogdon at SG means Duarte will either need to come off the bench, or slide over to the 3. It workable, but doesn't feel optimal

[pacers33granger]

Count me as one who doesn't think Hayward is nearly as good as his rep. We're talking about a 32 year old one time all star. Yeah I know injuries hurt his chances some years, but he was historically a fringe all star.

I think it was worth a shot when he was a free agent (coming from Utah, not Boston) and we had PG. Otherwise, it's overpaying for a hometown guy who very likely does not change the trajectory of the organization.

If Charlotte wanted to give us something to take on his contract, then it's different. But I see no scenario where that plays out.

[Wizop]

Count me as one who doesn't think Hayward is nearly as good as his rep. We're talking about a 32 year old one time all star. Yeah I know injuries hurt his chances some years, but he was historically a fringe all star.

I don't see any 32 year old putting us over the top. I know CP3 was the Suns missing piece but we're not that close yet.

[Hijack 2k]

If anyone wants to check it out, I did a full Pacers rebuild from current to championship on my youtube. Any support or advice would be very much appreciated. Much love

[url]

Watch on YouTube

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[Wizop]

If anyone wants to check it out, I did a full Pacers rebuild from current to championship on my youtube. Any support or advice would be very much appreciated. Much love

I tried, really I did, but I shut it down after 8 minutes. here are some things that jumped out at me. Smith is highly unlikely to stay because literally every team in the league can offer him more money than we can because of the Suns not picking up his option. you say that Warren refuses to stay but local reporters say the opposite. you have us trading with Detroit but Grant doesn't fit our timeline. Jackson looks to be a 4. Warren, Brissett and Taylor are 3/4s, and there are a lot of 4s in this year's lottery.

you even dropped that we'd finish with 32 wins this year after noting we're 20 and 40. that's 60 of 82 games so 32 wins mean we're going 12 and 10 from here. I can almost guarantee that if we have a winning record in what is left of the season we won't be trading any starters.

[Pacers Forever]

Hayward doesn’t fit our youth movement of Haliburton, Duarte, Jackson, and others. While he probably has talent left in his tank Pacers need to develop young players into a stronger core to last for years.

I’m hoping Chad and KP can find more young players to trade for that are stuck behind vets on teams currently. Why ?

Free agent market looks bleak this year.
Otto Porter Jr. FA
TJ Warren

Draft weak compared to last year’s draft talent.

[Wizop]

Draft weak compared to last year’s draft talent.

I'm not one who believes this can be known for several years.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using RealGM mobile app

[pacers33granger]

Count me as one who doesn't think Hayward is nearly as good as his rep. We're talking about a 32 year old one time all star. Yeah I know injuries hurt his chances some years, but he was historically a fringe all star.

I don't see any 32 year old putting us over the top. I know CP3 was the Suns missing piece but we're not that close yet.

I'm not even talking about putting us over the top. He's a Brogdon-level player with an injury history. Just no clue why we were interested other than the year he signed with Boston.

[Topofthekey]

I've warmed enough towards the idea of Brogdon being the other starting guard beside Haliburton that I find myself comparing the pros of having him vs having Duarte

Brogdon
-is a 50/40/90 player off ball (at least in theory)
-can slide back to PG whenever Haliburton isn't playing
-is one of the few "big name" FAs who's willing to join the Pacers

Duarte
-has a higher ceiling than Brogdon
-is a better defender
-does not look like he's injury prone like Brogdon
-fits Haliburton's timeline better

The optimist in me is cautiously hopeful that pairing with Haliburton is what will "unleash" the 50/40/90 Brogdon

But then the pessimist in me reminds me that it's probably just going to be the two big problem all over again except this time at PG

[Tom White]

...is one of the few "big name" FAs who's willing to join the Pacers

Is he really a "big name" though?

We're not talking about an all-star here. I don't remember other teams knocking down Milwaukee's doors to get him. We certainly haven't heard about other teams trying to get him from the Pacers since he came here.

But then the pessimist in me reminds me that it's probably just going to be the two big problem all over again except this time at PG

I think the difference is, in this case, the problems would be more ego based than game plan based, or talent based.

[Wizop]

But then the pessimist in me reminds me that it's probably just going to be the two big problem all over again except this time at PG

the pessimist in me wonders 1) if Brogdon will be happy not being the lead dog and 2) if either Brogdon or Duarte can guard small forwards.

[Ruaidri]

Can Brogdon defend small forward.
A friend of mine is fan of the Bucks.
He always says that Brogdon defended the best offense player 1 to 3 of the opponent the last season on the Bucks.
He is really surprised when I tell him that we sometimes doubt Brogdon defense capacities. He believes that with Hali as point guard, Brogdon can be an elite 3 and D player.

I was discussing with him yesterday, he said if there would be a way to get Doug back, we could start 5 good 3 point shooters and have one of the Bench. Also he said somehow Pacers defense is always above average, it is in their culture. So if you have the best 3 point shooting team and good defense who can stop you?

[Wizop]

He always says that Brogdon defended the best offense player 1 to 3 of the opponent the last season on the Bucks.

Let's hope then that soon we'll see what a lineup of Hali, Duarte, Brogdon, Warren, and Turner can do. We'd have a second unit of Lance (later McM), Hield, Brissett, Smith, and Jackson. Washington, Sykes, Taylor, and Goga should get minutes too. Rubio is the 16th name and we have an open slot.

I put Warren in as a starter but if he does return he could be on a pitch count with the second unit at first.

[String Music]

He always says that Brogdon defended the best offense player 1 to 3 of the opponent the last season on the Bucks.

I absolutely believe Brogdon can survive guarding 3s. During the 2019 Bucks/Raptors playoff series, when Brogdon was coming off the bench after coming back from injury, I remember several possessions where Brogdon was primary defender on Kawhi. At the time, I was really impressed with his competitive nature and toughness, especially trying to handle Kawhi on the block.

[Scoot McGroot]

...is one of the few "big name" FAs who's willing to join the Pacers

Is he really a "big name" though?

We're not talking about an all-star here. I don't remember other teams knocking down Milwaukee's doors to get him. We certainly haven't heard about other teams trying to get him from the Pacers since he came here.

But then the pessimist in me reminds me that it's probably just going to be the two big problem all over again except this time at PG

I think the difference is, in this case, the problems would be more ego based than game plan based, or talent based.

Yes. He’s a quite big name. Much like Haliburton, teams were shocked to find that Milwaukee would consider letting him go and “wished” that they would’ve known in enough time to make an offer. He was coveted, but restricted free agency (and the Indy trade pieces) meant that we were able to acquire him before a market opened for him, and at a lower cost than if we simply made an offer sheet for Milwaukee to decline to match.

[Scoot McGroot]

Can Brogdon defend small forward.
A friend of mine is fan of the Bucks.
He always says that Brogdon defended the best offense player 1 to 3 of the opponent the last season on the Bucks.
He is really surprised when I tell him that we sometimes doubt Brogdon defense capacities. He believes that with Hali as point guard, Brogdon can be an elite 3 and D player.

I was discussing with him yesterday, he said if there would be a way to get Doug back, we could start 5 good 3 point shooters and have one of the Bench. Also he said somehow Pacers defense is always above average, it is in their culture. So if you have the best 3 point shooting team and good defense who can stop you?

To be fair, this appears to have been almost solely due to former assistant coach Dan Burkes 20+ year tenure with the Pacers. When we let him leave for Philly, we lost any sense of that defensive ability, it seems.

[pacers33granger]

Hali/Brogdon isn't really comparable to Myles/Domas imo. Teams routinely run with 2, sometimes even 3 small guards now. Rick always did in Dallas. But no one, except Cleveland now, really runs super big lineups regularly.

What will be the deciding factor is if Brogdon continues to be a ballstopper or if he starts moving it quickly. If he is truly back to playing primary offball, it could work. He's done it before and if he is making quick decisions his faults will be much less amplified.