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Forgive me for asking, but why is everybody so excited about Haliburton? I was excited too. Point guard for the future. yay. But now I have questions. I've been looking at the draft and free agents, and it is really hard to fit pieces around Haliburton. He is a pass first point guard who can't play defense. Why is that so exciting? He doesn't even fit next to our last lottery pick, Duarte. I look at a guy like Dyson Daniels, and I think he would be great with Duarte. A pass first point guard who is a great defender. I'm wondering how we are supposed to build a team around him.

Hamburger wrote:Forgive me for asking, but why is everybody so excited about Haliburton? I was excited too. Point guard for the future. yay. But now I have questions. I've been looking at the draft and free agents, and it is really hard to fit pieces around Haliburton. He is a pass first point guard who can't play defense. Why is that so exciting? He doesn't even fit next to our last lottery pick, Duarte. I look at a guy like Dyson Daniels, and I think he would be great with Duarte. A pass first point guard who is a great defender. I'm wondering how we are supposed to build a team around him.

No worries. I think what the Pacers like about Haliburton is his court vision and that he’s so much better at getting his teammates involved in the offense. He doesn’t spend time pounding the ball searching what to do and end up taking a drive or forced shot. He pushes the ball up the floor and then he moves well without it. He has a very good 3 point shot and to a fault is unselfish. He’s got height and decent handles. He plays the passing lanes a lot for steals. He’s young.

I think he’s what they had hoped for in converting Brogdon to a point guard.

In the case of Duarte and Daniels if the Pacers go for Daniels I see them moving Duarte to the 3 with Daniels at the 2 or maybe vice versa.

I think we really missed out due to repeated injuries on just how good Duarte is and will become. He’s got a lot of growing to do this season to warrant his draft position. Has to strengthen his body to stay healthy, be more careful of reckless all out plays which lead to injury, learn the offense better, and I hope he then has a better opportunity to mesh with Haliburton.

Pacers Forever wrote:

Hamburger wrote:Forgive me for asking, but why is everybody so excited about Haliburton? I was excited too. Point guard for the future. yay. But now I have questions. I've been looking at the draft and free agents, and it is really hard to fit pieces around Haliburton. He is a pass first point guard who can't play defense. Why is that so exciting? He doesn't even fit next to our last lottery pick, Duarte. I look at a guy like Dyson Daniels, and I think he would be great with Duarte. A pass first point guard who is a great defender. I'm wondering how we are supposed to build a team around him.

No worries. I think what the Pacers like about Haliburton is his court vision and that he’s so much better at getting his teammates involved in the offense. He doesn’t spend time pounding the ball searching what to do and end up taking a drive or forced shot. He pushes the ball up the floor and then he moves well without it. He has a very good 3 point shot and to a fault is unselfish. He’s got height and decent handles. He plays the passing lanes a lot for steals. He’s young.

I think he’s what they had hoped for in converting Brogdon to a point guard.

In the case of Duarte and Daniels if the Pacers go for Daniels I see them moving Duarte to the 3 with Daniels at the 2 or maybe vice versa.

I think we really missed out due to repeated injuries on just how good Duarte is and will become. He’s got a lot of growing to do this season to warrant his draft position. Has to strengthen his body to stay healthy, be more careful of reckless all out plays which lead to injury, learn the offense better, and I hope he then has a better opportunity to mesh with Haliburton.

It is great we have someone to run the offense, but can't you find guys like that who can play defense? If a guy is not going to be a primary scorer, you better be able to guard your position, right? To play Haliburton, we need a wing who can guard speed and score. Duarte can't guard the point, but he is a good wing defender. If we find a long small forward, we are asking a ton of the guy who starts next to Haliburton in the backcourt. At the very least, it looks like Duarte will have to be taken out of the starting SG spot so somebody can guard a point guard.

On any given night, Hali CAN be the primary scorer. He is an excellent shot. His defense might be a bit underrated. He has the quickness to do well at that end of the floor, and as was said, he gets his fair share of steals. I think he and Duarte work well together. But the main thing he does is he keeps all the guys involved. Guys will play harder on defense if they know they will be rewarded on the offensive end of the floor.

To me, it was harder to find guys who fit with Sabonis than it is to find guys who fit with Haliburton.

Hamburger wrote:Forgive me for asking, but why is everybody so excited about Haliburton? I was excited too. Point guard for the future. yay. But now I have questions. I've been looking at the draft and free agents, and it is really hard to fit pieces around Haliburton. He is a pass first point guard who can't play defense. Why is that so exciting? He doesn't even fit next to our last lottery pick, Duarte. I look at a guy like Dyson Daniels, and I think he would be great with Duarte. A pass first point guard who is a great defender. I'm wondering how we are supposed to build a team around him.

To me, Daniels and Hali are entirely different level of PG. Haliburton is a guy that can absolutely create something from nothing, make plays happen, and pass guys open. Daniels is a read and react guy that can make the open pass, but can’t truly create offense. At least, nowhere near that right now. Think of Haliburton like a Steve Nash. Sure, the defense isn’t there, but everything else is wonderful. Daniels is more of a Darren Collisom type PG, in that he can make passes and being the ball up, but he’s not truly creating anything. Daniels is a better defender, and has the size of a SF, but he’s not truly a primary creator. He’s more of a secondary distributor, like Buddy was this past season.


Hali is a dynamic young guard. His offense is all the way there. He looks like he makes other guys better with his passing and reading the defense. There’s hope as he’s young that his defense will come. He has tremendous passing vision, so it kind of correlates to reading opposing offenses and being better at jumping passing lanes and the like.

In terms of building a team around Hali? A Turner returning would help. Duarte healthy on the wings helps. Get another usable defender at the 2 or 3 and you make a difference. Daniels could be that at 3. Johnny Davis would be a dynamite point of attack defender to let Hali help more with his length off ball and read and react. Really, any sort of a team defender would just continue to help a ton. But mostly, it’s hat he’s still young, and he knows he has to improve there.

Hamburger wrote:Forgive me for asking, but why is everybody so excited about Haliburton? I was excited too. Point guard for the future. yay. But now I have questions. I've been looking at the draft and free agents, and it is really hard to fit pieces around Haliburton. He is a pass first point guard who can't play defense. Why is that so exciting? He doesn't even fit next to our last lottery pick, Duarte. I look at a guy like Dyson Daniels, and I think he would be great with Duarte. A pass first point guard who is a great defender. I'm wondering how we are supposed to build a team around him.

IDK why you say he "can't" play defense he's a big 6'5" PG with long arms and he's got a great assist to TO ratio, nearly 4/1. With the Pacers he averaged 9.6 Assists and only 1.9 to's that's actually about 5/1. I saw one game he had 17 assists and no TO's at all.

I think every team in the NBA would be interested if this guy was on the block, no one thought the Kings would trade him, everyone kept talking about Fox or Mitchell.

IDK about Daniels I'm seeing a lot of hype about him and I have nothing to go on having not seen him play at all. If we pick him he better pan out.

basketballwacko2 wrote:

Hamburger wrote:Forgive me for asking, but why is everybody so excited about Haliburton? I was excited too. Point guard for the future. yay. But now I have questions. I've been looking at the draft and free agents, and it is really hard to fit pieces around Haliburton. He is a pass first point guard who can't play defense. Why is that so exciting? He doesn't even fit next to our last lottery pick, Duarte. I look at a guy like Dyson Daniels, and I think he would be great with Duarte. A pass first point guard who is a great defender. I'm wondering how we are supposed to build a team around him.

IDK why you say he "can't" play defense he's a big 6'5" PG with long arms and he's got a great assist to TO ratio, nearly 4/1. With the Pacers he averaged 9.6 Assists and only 1.9 to's that's actually about 5/1. I saw one game he had 17 assists and no TO's at all.

I think every team in the NBA would be interested if this guy was on the block, no one thought the Kings would trade him, everyone kept talking about Fox or Mitchell.

IDK about Daniels I'm seeing a lot of hype about him and I have nothing to go on having not seen him play at all. If we pick him he better pan out.

If you watch the BoxandOne YouTube highlight video you’ll see why there’s a lot of interest in Daniels.

Defense minded hustle is huge asset
Length to challenge 1-4
Passing skills to include teammates
Nice float game near basket a bit quirky
Working on 3 ball

If several players on the board are similar in talent, you consider need. Our need is at 3-4. For me that means Murray or Daniels would be our best choice unless we rate Maturin, Ivey, or Sharpe as belonging in a higher tier. It goes without saying that Smith, Holmgren, and Banchero are in a higher tier.

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He's the main reason why the second half of the season was watchable

Pacers got immensely more watchable after Haliburton

His vision and his brains. One of the first dudes he thanked when he left was the Kings film guy. He’s going to be a high level player for yhall. May become elite if he bulks up and can consistently penetrate, score, and create at the rim.

Pritchard will be talking to Myles Turner how he feels about staying after next season and hopefully Kevin does a better job reading his players mind this time. Turner fits very well next to Tyrese, both of offense and defense.

Haliburton has all it takes to be part of a championship team and because he is so good at such a young age, our team builders have lot's of opportunity to not surround him with 2 starting centers or 2 starting shooting guards.

I think his D is a mixed bag and hes probably on the bad scale, thats without watching your team much (execution vs scheme, role, etc..). Lets start macro.



Hes playing the bad match ups, hes pretty versatile both by role and position, he is also doesnt foul much.



Hes good against Gs, but given how much USG against is coming from lesser players, im not sure thats good. Hes been good against Slashers, and surprisingly good against post scorers, but I would be worried its just buoyed by bad offensive players.



Hes not a great on ball defender, and it bore out, he was 8FG% worse vs the guys he guarded avgs.

Having said that, hes pretty good off the ball, and creates TOVs/Deflections. Hes decent vs screens.



Good rim protector for a G (doesnt really matter but wanted to share), and a good DREB as a G.

In the end, hes probably more a liability on defense, specifically if hes forced to guard on the ball. Hes a guy whos going to be hidden on that end.

I will say, offensively his only weaknesses are he could draw more fouls, and he could look to score more, but the kid is already great.



Hes 57th percentile in USG, but 98th in True USG, so it shows hes carrying a huge load because of his elite facilitating.

In the end, I think Halis elite offense far outweighs the fact hes poor defender. The problem is, and I dont know, how much does it hurt the defense because while the DRTG is an astronomical (121.4), its still very high with him off (116.4). While he didnt play alot with Turner (320 mins), they were equally as bad with both in the lineup as without him.

Maybe he is an anchor, but im more down on the vets.

Pacersike wrote:Pritchard will be talking to Myles Turner how he feels about staying after next season and hopefully Kevin does a better job reading his players mind this time. Turner fits very well next to Tyrese, both of offense and defense.

Haliburton has all it takes to be part of a championship team and because he is so good at such a young age, our team builders have lot's of opportunity to not surround him with 2 starting centers or 2 starting shooting guards.

I think keeping Turner is vital. Jackson blocks shots, but he does not have the same effect as Myles on shutting other teams down. Turner looked like a fish to water on offense under Carlyle's scheme. It would make no sense to dump Myles for a mid to late pick. Myles and Haliburton would be the two main pieces to build around.

vini_vidi_vici wrote:I think his D is a mixed bag and hes probably on the bad scale, thats without watching your team much (execution vs scheme, role, etc..). Lets start macro.

Spoiler:

Hes playing the bad match ups, hes pretty versatile both by role and position, he is also doesnt foul much.

Spoiler:

Hes good against Gs, but given how much USG against is coming from lesser players, im not sure thats good. Hes been good against Slashers, and surprisingly good against post scorers, but I would be worried its just buoyed by bad offensive players.

Spoiler:

Hes not a great on ball defender, and it bore out, he was 8FG% worse vs the guys he guarded avgs.

Having said that, hes pretty good off the ball, and creates TOVs/Deflections. Hes decent vs screens.

Spoiler:

Good rim protector for a G (doesnt really matter but wanted to share), and a good DREB as a G.

In the end, hes probably more a liability on defense, specifically if hes forced to guard on the ball. Hes a guy whos going to be hidden on that end.

I will say, offensively his only weaknesses are he could draw more fouls, and he could look to score more, but the kid is already great.

Spoiler:

Hes 57th percentile in USG, but 98th in True USG, so it shows hes carrying a huge load because of his elite facilitating.

In the end, I think Halis elite offense far outweighs the fact hes poor defender. The problem is, and I dont know, how much does it hurt the defense because while the DRTG is an astronomical (121.4), its still very high with him off (116.4). While he didnt play alot with Turner (320 mins), they were equally as bad with both in the lineup as without him.

Maybe he is an anchor, but im more down on the vets.

Thanks for the amazing breakdown. I look at Haliburton, and I think Marc Jackson. A playmaking point guard who is not the greatest defender. I think wow, we are getting excited about Marc Jackson, not even a Reggie Miller. If Haliburton and Duarte can't guard a point guard with on ball defense, what exactly are we supposed to do? What if the other team has multiple personnel who attack the rim? I have a hard time seeing how we are supposed to build ourselves around this in this rebuild. We would lose 130 to 140. Yuck.

Hamburger wrote:What if the other team has multiple personnel who attack the rim?

Myles Turner

Hamburger wrote:

vini_vidi_vici wrote:I think his D is a mixed bag and hes probably on the bad scale, thats without watching your team much (execution vs scheme, role, etc..). Lets start macro.

Spoiler:

Hes playing the bad match ups, hes pretty versatile both by role and position, he is also doesnt foul much.

Spoiler:

Hes good against Gs, but given how much USG against is coming from lesser players, im not sure thats good. Hes been good against Slashers, and surprisingly good against post scorers, but I would be worried its just buoyed by bad offensive players.

Spoiler:

Hes not a great on ball defender, and it bore out, he was 8FG% worse vs the guys he guarded avgs.

Having said that, hes pretty good off the ball, and creates TOVs/Deflections. Hes decent vs screens.

Spoiler:

Good rim protector for a G (doesnt really matter but wanted to share), and a good DREB as a G.

In the end, hes probably more a liability on defense, specifically if hes forced to guard on the ball. Hes a guy whos going to be hidden on that end.

I will say, offensively his only weaknesses are he could draw more fouls, and he could look to score more, but the kid is already great.

Spoiler:

Hes 57th percentile in USG, but 98th in True USG, so it shows hes carrying a huge load because of his elite facilitating.

In the end, I think Halis elite offense far outweighs the fact hes poor defender. The problem is, and I dont know, how much does it hurt the defense because while the DRTG is an astronomical (121.4), its still very high with him off (116.4). While he didnt play alot with Turner (320 mins), they were equally as bad with both in the lineup as without him.

Maybe he is an anchor, but im more down on the vets.

Thanks for the amazing breakdown. I look at Haliburton, and I think Marc Jackson. A playmaking point guard who is not the greatest defender. I think wow, we are getting excited about Marc Jackson, not even a Reggie Miller. If Haliburton and Duarte can't guard a point guard with on ball defense, what exactly are we supposed to do? What if the other team has multiple personnel who attack the rim? I have a hard time seeing how we are supposed to build ourselves around this in this rebuild. We would lose 130 to 140. Yuck.

I wouldn’t assume that Hali is all done on defense. He’s talked about recognizing that he played poor defense and needs to improve on that side. He’s got great vision and understanding of the game, so he’ll probably age into playin guys better by seeing the next move from a defensive perspective. He needs to improve there, but he’s not a finished product.

Scoot McGroot wrote:He’s got great vision.

that's an underappreciated asset. the great point guards have exceptional peripheral vision.

Hamburger wrote:Thanks for the amazing breakdown. I look at Haliburton, and I think Marc Jackson. A playmaking point guard who is not the greatest defender. I think wow, we are getting excited about Marc Jackson, not even a Reggie Miller. If Haliburton and Duarte can't guard a point guard with on ball defense, what exactly are we supposed to do? What if the other team has multiple personnel who attack the rim? I have a hard time seeing how we are supposed to build ourselves around this in this rebuild. We would lose 130 to 140. Yuck.

I dont like the Jackson comp because Hali is a better scorer, and is carrying a heavy true USG only stars get.

Its also important to remember, different systems value different things. Myles Turner would look bad in the Raps system IMO, because he lacks versatility, is a poor perimeter defender, and really only brings rim protection. But we have seen guys like Gobert command elite defenses, so its just different ways of success. I think if you have a help heavy, funnel to rim protector defense, or you want to hide him on the 3+Ds, thats fine.

As an example, I used to dump all over Demar Derozans defense (sorry for the Raps centric points), but we limited the volume. The problem was, he wasnt efficient, wasnt facilitating, and carrying a huge USG on MR Js, so that also sucked. Atleast you have an elite offensive player worth hiding.

I mean look at this offense.



C&S/PullUps/Creating, he is about as elite a 3PT shooter in the L.



Despite not using alot of volume of his drives on scoring, hes still a great finisher, and still is a great passer out of penetration. The other knock being hes not drawing alot of fouls.



He doesnt take alot of ISOs, but hes elite in them. Hes a great finisher in all his main sets.



Hes an elite facilitator, which we already know.

Like I said, I dont really follow your team (just kinda lurk the other boards), but im more down on your vets. Im not here to dump on him, I think hes your best player and only growing, id love to have him on the Raps. I just think at this stage in his career, hes pretty bad defensively.

vini_vidi_vici wrote:

Hamburger wrote:Thanks for the amazing breakdown. I look at Haliburton, and I think Marc Jackson. A playmaking point guard who is not the greatest defender. I think wow, we are getting excited about Marc Jackson, not even a Reggie Miller. If Haliburton and Duarte can't guard a point guard with on ball defense, what exactly are we supposed to do? What if the other team has multiple personnel who attack the rim? I have a hard time seeing how we are supposed to build ourselves around this in this rebuild. We would lose 130 to 140. Yuck.

I dont like the Jackson comp because Hali is a better scorer, and is carrying a heavy true USG only stars get.

Its also important to remember, different systems value different things. Myles Turner would look bad in the Raps system IMO, because he lacks versatility, is a poor perimeter defender, and really only brings rim protection. But we have seen guys like Gobert command elite defenses, so its just different ways of success. I think if you have a help heavy, funnel to rim protector defense, or you want to hide him on the 3+Ds, thats fine..

Turner was having an all-defense level season in the Raptors defensive system in Indiana.

Hamburger wrote:Forgive me for asking, but why is everybody so excited about Haliburton? I was excited too. Point guard for the future. yay. But now I have questions. I've been looking at the draft and free agents, and it is really hard to fit pieces around Haliburton. He is a pass first point guard who can't play defense. Why is that so exciting? He doesn't even fit next to our last lottery pick, Duarte. I look at a guy like Dyson Daniels, and I think he would be great with Duarte. A pass first point guard who is a great defender. I'm wondering how we are supposed to build a team around him.

Difficult to fit pieces around? That's a curious assessment. Haliburton is one of the easiest players to build around. Low usage, unselfish, awesome passer, good shooter, and has length.

What makes him so special is that he has an elite brain and he is an elite passer, and he also shoots with great efficiency when open. Great in transition as well. He just makes a lot of players around him better and he has all the markers to scale well next to other talented players and scorers in particular. You won't find many people who fit this profile even in the NBA. You just can't expect him to be be your primary scorer.

I also find the defensive concerns to be seriously overblown here. He has certain limitations but he's long, he's disruptive, and he's not someone who doesn't care. That's a pretty good starting point for a young player in the NBA.