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I can't get behind tanking. We have enough talent, that even if we made a trade, I think we would still be too good to get a top 5 pick. I would hope our young guys were not so terrible that we ended up high lottery. We are deep in athletic shooters and point guards, and if Myles stays healthy, I say we should try to win and create a winning culture. We'd be a little weak at the four and backup 5, but with good health, Myles, Jackson and Smith would be good enough for our guards to make the difference. We have shooting and athletes, so I say don't try to be terrible for a chance at a high lottery pick. Haliburton, Mathius, and Duarte are all lottery picks. Isn't Myles a lottery pick too. For Pete's sake, can't they win now?

Is Myles a lottery pick? No, Myles is a nice roll player but when I’m thinking lottery pick (top 7 pick) I’m thinking potential star. I’m for pulling off the bandaid and trading Turner for whatever we can get. Jackson, Smth and Goga should be getting all the minutes they can handle. Don’t think that happens with Myles around.

After that it should be about player development and eveluation we are at least 10 deep with players who need run.
Jackson, Smith, Goga, Taylor, Brissett, Hali, Duarte, Nesmith, Mathurin. Guess that’s only nine, assuming Nemhart and Brown get major run on the Mad Ants. See where you are with 30 games to go (like last year). If we are in the hunt for a top 7 pick, shut it down. Whichever players need to be injured, rested or off the floor to keep from winning come off the floor. A 15% shot at Victor or Scoot is worth it in my opinion.

8305 wrote:

After that it should be about player development and eveluation we are at least 10 deep with players who need run.
Jackson, Smith, Goga, Taylor, Brissett, Hali, Duarte, Nesmith, Mathurin. Guess that’s only nine

McConnell

Hamburger wrote:I can't get behind tanking. We have enough talent, that even if we made a trade, I think we would still be too good to get a top 5 pick. I would hope our young guys were not so terrible that we ended up high lottery. We are deep in athletic shooters and point guards, and if Myles stays healthy, I say we should try to win and create a winning culture. We'd be a little weak at the four and backup 5, but with good health, Myles, Jackson and Smith would be good enough for our guards to make the difference. We have shooting and athletes, so I say don't try to be terrible for a chance at a high lottery pick. Haliburton, Mathius, and Duarte are all lottery picks. Isn't Myles a lottery pick too. For Pete's sake, can't they win now?

I mean, I think we’re gonna lose a ton of games even if we don’t make any trades. Like, right now, we might be in that 4th worst to 7h worst spots? That, even if we play all out and our young guards are just insane, we still don’t have any way to truly battle the big wings or SF/PF players in the league and will just leak points there all year long? To me, I’d rather deal Turner/Hield because I’d rather not play out this year as the 7th-ish pick and then still see Turner walk for nothing in the offseason and kind of lose out both ways.

If you think this team, as is, is a playoff team, then go for it. If you think this team realistically doesn’t sniff the play in, hen why wouldn’t you better manage your assets/resources, and maximize in one of the projected best drafts in a decade? With multiple possible franchise top players available?

I’m also all for establishing a winning culture. I just don’t think that Myles/Buddy are doing that. I think Buddy loses us as many games as he wins. And if our young guards are as good as you hope, wouldn’t you want to move Buddy and clear up more time so that all of Duarte, Mathurin, Nesmith, and Nembhard could get 20+ minutes every night to develop?

And dealing Myles/Buddy doesn’t mean you intentionally try and lose all the games. It means you balance your resources, get pieces available in trade or for a potential draft home run down the line to add to hopefully expensive extended players like Hali, Jackson, Mathurin, etc, that balance your books, while getting those guys more minutes to develop, and still pushing those guys every night to compete hard for every win. Sure, you hamstring them a bit, but you don’t ask them to lose. You’re still pushing them hard to win every night. You still develop that mindset and having a McConnell and James Johnson types still helps that.

To me, if Myles won’t extend, it doesn’t make sense to plan long term around him. Get value for him. I personally think Buddy is a nice vet, but I don’t see him winning us games, and maybe loses you a game or two. He’s not your long term guy, for sure, when you’ve just drafted two SG’s in the lottery in back to back years. Why not clear some future salary, get some great future pieces, and clear up the lineup for your young guys to take it and run? And all your giving up is a painful year where you’re neither good enough to make a play in, nor bad enough to probably get one of the 3-5 possible franchise young players in a franchise changing draft year?

Tom White wrote:

8305 wrote:

After that it should be about player development and eveluation we are at least 10 deep with players who need run.
Jackson, Smith, Goga, Taylor, Brissett, Hali, Duarte, Nesmith, Mathurin. Guess that’s only nine

McConnell

I don’t need to see a minute of TJ to know he is a nice backup pg. His development is irrelevant to Pacers future. There’s a reason I don’t list him.

8305 wrote:I don’t need to see a minute of TJ to know he is a nice backup pg. His development is irrelevant to Pacers future. There’s a reason I don’t list him.

I understand what you are saying. The reason I include him is because of what he can do for the young guys when he plays with them. He can create opportunities for them on the floor with his playmaking and guidance. Call it being a coach on the floor or whatever, but I think he can aid in their development, and they can benefit from his experience. He is good at getting other players involved and keeping them involved.

Scoot, you answered my question 100%. I didn't know Myles wouldn't extend. I wondered why we were trying to move him because he would be a great fit with Carlisle. If he doesn't want to be here, then try to get something for him. I've heard so much fan chatter about tanking, I bought into it. We don't want the young guards to suck. With as tough as the East is, we will still get a good pick, but it would be nice to be competitive and see promising signs for the future with our current roster.

Hamburger wrote:Scoot, you answered my question 100%. I didn't know Myles wouldn't extend. I wondered why we were trying to move him because he would be a great fit with Carlisle. If he doesn't want to be here, then try to get something for him. I've heard so much fan chatter about tanking, I bought into it. We don't want the young guards to suck. With as tough as the East is, we will still get a good pick, but it would be nice to be competitive and see promising signs for the future with our current roster.

To be clear, we don’t know for sure that Myles WON’T extend, we just know he hasn’t yet. THere’s also been talk of how he wants to hit free agency for his maximum salary, and to see his options, so we just don’t know.

Otherwise, i think the tank talk is just crossing back and forth into simple rebuilding territory. We’ve tried to be competitive, and have been bad. We’re likely to be bad anyway this year, so it makes sense to just continue to rebuild properly rather than trying to hack together a hard fought 30 win season, when you could get a similar 25 win season with hard fought effort, and added draft picks for the future, and continued developmental focus on he young players. In recent past, we’ve just focused so much on reloading and trying to short circuit the build, that it makes more sense to finally build it right and solid from the base, even if it takes a couple seasons.

I think we will win more games this year than expected. Pacers brass last couple of years were worried trading the vets for future pieces would cost us games, but those vets weren't winning many games anyway. I think the team has improved by getting younger, even in the short term.

The team was 6-20 (.231 win%) post trade with the youngsters and 19-37 (.340 win%) pre trade with the vets. The vets would have gone 28-54 (projected) and the youngsters would have gone 19-63 (projected).

Even with improvement, it seems like winning 30 would be a HUGE improvement for basically just adding Mathurin and Nesmith? And winning 30 would have only pushed Indy down one slot in the lotto to tied with Sacramento for 7th.

Even with improvement to 30 wins, we’d still have been 13 games out of the playoffs, and the play in, in the East, and only 10 games above the team that finished first in the lottery ping pong balls. So, even with a lot of improvement, Indy would still be much closer to the top of the lotto than the play in in the East.

Scoot McGroot wrote:The team was 6-20 (.231 win%) post trade with the youngsters and 19-37 (.340 win%) pre trade with the vets. The vets would have gone 28-54 (projected) and the youngsters would have gone 19-63 (projected).

Are you taking into account the injuries suffered as the year progressed?

Tom White wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:The team was 6-20 (.231 win%) post trade with the youngsters and 19-37 (.340 win%) pre trade with the vets. The vets would have gone 28-54 (projected) and the youngsters would have gone 19-63 (projected).

Are you taking into account the injuries suffered as the year progressed?

Obviously, I can’t. There’s simply no way to since we can’t know who was healthy and when was it tanking, etc. just broad picture that even though it seems like the vets weren’t winning many more games than the youngsters, in general, they were winning a good amount more.

I think with the Turner situation it's just both parties doing what's in their best interest

Ultimately, if Turner likes being in Indiana, and if the team thinks he's worth his new price tag, he will remain a Pacer

I'm pretty optimistic about the team's future as it is. Hali has All-NBA ceiling. Mathurin is a potential alpha dog. Duarte is going to be a greater than many people expect

I don't think the team needs to get worse on purpose. They just need to teach and develope their players, and seems like Carlisle is doing just that

Hamburger wrote:I can't get behind tanking. We have enough talent, that even if we made a trade, I think we would still be too good to get a top 5 pick. I would hope our young guys were not so terrible that we ended up high lottery. We are deep in athletic shooters and point guards, and if Myles stays healthy, I say we should try to win and create a winning culture. We'd be a little weak at the four and backup 5, but with good health, Myles, Jackson and Smith would be good enough for our guards to make the difference. We have shooting and athletes, so I say don't try to be terrible for a chance at a high lottery pick. Haliburton, Mathius, and Duarte are all lottery picks. Isn't Myles a lottery pick too. For Pete's sake, can't they win now?

They just don't have the talent. They don't have the defense. They are easy to play against. Middle of the pack in 3PT and FT attempts. They they are near the bottom in defensive rebounds. They play soft and have a few nice pieces such as Jackson and Smith who could be stars in a few seasons but both of them pretty raw. Suns did everything they could to get rid of Smith just a few months ago. Jackson struggles defensively and beside dunking can't score in the NBA yet.

But i think your wish may come true. The Pacers are probably too good to be in contention for a top-3 pick but also not good enough for the playoffs. To me, thats the worst spot to be in sports.

Which teams are clearly worser than the Pacers?

5 teams below us last season all got a better player in the draft. Also our record last season was worser after the trade. So why would we be better than bottom 5?

Tom White wrote:

8305 wrote:I don’t need to see a minute of TJ to know he is a nice backup pg. His development is irrelevant to Pacers future. There’s a reason I don’t list him.

I understand what you are saying. The reason I include him is because of what he can do for the young guys when he plays with them. He can create opportunities for them on the floor with his playmaking and guidance. Call it being a coach on the floor or whatever, but I think he can aid in their development, and they can benefit from his experience. He is good at getting other players involved and keeping them involved.

I see your point too. Might be better for Jackson, Nesmith, Taylor (likely bench guys) to get their run with TJ as opposed to Nemhart.

If we get a solid offer for Hield or Theis, I see no reason to turn it down. as for Turner and whether we're a 20 win team or a 35 win team, I'm conformable playing a month or do and seeing where we are. I really don't care if he plays out the year and signs elsewhere. unlike Kravitz, I think he'll chose to stay if the money is equal.

As others have said, were gonna be bad no matter what. Not enough experience on the roster and the talent is lacking in a lot of places.

I am slightly concerned that we will be a bit better than a lot think though. I suspect, batting lotto odds in our favor, were more likely to be 5-8 than 1-4. That said, the lotto changes mean we still could reasonably luck into moving up.

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Which teams are you put under the Pacers?

We only have an talented but at the moment not more than average pg. Same applies for sg. Where we exactly have two of them. And we have an average starting veteran sg.
We have no SF, maybe a talented pf.
A top 10 center and maybe two talents but still very raw.

Rest of the roster are at best role players, but no other team will have them in there best 9 players.

So which teams are worser? Spurs? Rockets?
We traded away Brogdon who was a pretty good player. We traded Sabonis, who was our best player. We lost Warren our best player, last time we were in the play-offs.

Only thing we can hope for now is that our raw talents are taken their chances, we get lucky with the pingpong balls, and maybe over a year we can see the real new team. This team is still on transition.

Ruaidri wrote:
We traded away Brogdon who was a pretty good player. We traded Sabonis, who was our best player. We lost Warren our best player, last time we were in the play-offs.

I'm more than happy to go into this season without the three of them, and with the new players we've added plus the others remaining from last year.