RealGM

Our center made Hoopshype's new top 5.
I'm proud of him.
Still listed behind Sabonis.
Not sure about posting links, but it's easy to find.

The Pacers made a great call extending Myles and not trading him away. I’m sure they knew he had more upside in his game and last season’s performance validated that. He’s become much more valuable to the future success and I think he’s going to have another great season this year.

The only player in that list who I would consider a clear upgrade over Turner is Jokic

Embiid is fragile, disappears in the playoffs, and is a flight risk via trade demand

Sabonis and Adebayo and Turner are all in the same tier, each brings their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Which one is considered better is mostly a question of team construction

If you look at our roster,. and the way that Coach want to play. Myles is a much better fit for this team than Doma. That list says Doma is better,. but I believe Myles raises the level of the Pacers team in a way that Doma couldn't. Same thing can be said for Doma's fit in Sac-town. He makes that team better than Myles could.

JMaster5K wrote:If you look at our roster,. and the way that Coach want to play. Myles is a much better fit for this team than Doma. That list says Doma is better,. but I believe Myles raises the level of the Pacers team in a way that Doma couldn't. Same thing can be said for Doma's fit in Sac-town. He makes that team better than Myles could.

Sure, but Domas is still the better player, and that’s all that ranking is for. It’s not about fits, just the best centers.

Topofthekey wrote:The only player in that list who I would consider a clear upgrade over Turner is Jokic

Embiid is fragile, disappears in the playoffs, and is a flight risk via trade demand

Sabonis and Adebayo and Turner are all in the same tier, each brings their own unique strengths and weaknesses. Which one is considered better is mostly a question of team construction

Uh, Embiid is clearly an upgrade. Bam is too. Sabonis is the better player, but worse fit.

It’s ok to love Turner. He’s really good and he’s our guy. But there’s a reason he doesn’t have any all-nba center nods; these other guys are just better. And there’s no shame there.

Scoot McGroot wrote:Uh, Embiid is clearly an upgrade. Bam is too. Sabonis is the better player, but worse fit.

It’s ok to love Turner. He’s really good and he’s our guy. But there’s a reason he doesn’t have any all-nba center nods; these other guys are just better. And there’s no shame there.

Disagree on Bam

Bam's ability to defend switches is elite, but he's mediocre on offense. Don't let his 20ppg fool you, he doesn't have range, doesn't have any reliable post moves, hesitates way too much and can't create for himself in general

I honestly would not trade Turner for Adebayo

Scoot McGroot wrote:

JMaster5K wrote:If you look at our roster,. and the way that Coach want to play. Myles is a much better fit for this team than Doma. That list says Doma is better,. but I believe Myles raises the level of the Pacers team in a way that Doma couldn't. Same thing can be said for Doma's fit in Sac-town. He makes that team better than Myles could.

Sure, but Domas is still the better player, and that’s all that ranking is for. It’s not about fits, just the best centers.

Uh, Embiid is clearly an upgrade. Bam is too. Sabonis is the better player, but worse fit.

It’s ok to love Turner. He’s really good and he’s our guy. But there’s a reason he doesn’t have any all-nba center nods; these other guys are just better. And there’s no shame there.

I guess my thoughts at the time were,.. 'In this day of analytics, what really defines the best center,.. and if one center is better than another?.... Counting stats? Win / Loss %, Win Share, Vorp, ability to take over a game & carry a team?,... I am not actually sure? (I don't think that is an easy question to answer.) I think it is probably easier and more accurate to put players into Tiers instead of a ranking because of the lack of clarity in comparing one to another?

Even when Doma was here,.. (and yes, I am a Doma fan as well) I couldn't tell you whether Doma or Myles was the better player. For certain line-ups & match ups, it was Doma. In other games, it was Myles. They are just different. So, I can't agree that Doma is just better than Myles,... but at the same time, I'm not sure that I can say definitively that he also is not. There were a couple of players listed after Myles that it surprised me they were ranked so low?

These sort of rankings do have a bit of value. They start conversations ( LOL ), and they help gauge a sense of approximate relational value among those listed for those of us that follow our teams & there roster construction. (again )

But for our Pacers,. I think the two of you hit on a much better question,.. which of the centers on that list would you trade Myles to get?......

Topofthekey wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:Uh, Embiid is clearly an upgrade. Bam is too. Sabonis is the better player, but worse fit.

It’s ok to love Turner. He’s really good and he’s our guy. But there’s a reason he doesn’t have any all-nba center nods; these other guys are just better. And there’s no shame there.

Disagree on Bam

Bam's ability to defend switches is elite, but he's mediocre on offense. Don't let his 20ppg fool you, he doesn't have range, doesn't have any reliable post moves, hesitates way too much and can't create for himself in general

I honestly would not trade Turner for Adebayo

Bam can absolutely create. Hes scored 20 ppg largely without a distributing type PG for his entire career specifically because he can dribble, drive, and create. While Myles has developed a straight line drive, with maybe one spin or redirection, Vam is able to redirect constantly, because he has a much tighter handle. He’s a better player than Turner, but maybe not a better fit as Indy has a Haliburton/Nembhard/McConnell type lineup at PG.

I’m not saying this to besmirch Myles. I love Myles. But Bam is simply a better overall player. Bam lacks the long range shooting ability that Myles has, but that’s about it. Bam has played as the point center in that Miami lineup over the years.

Scoot McGroot wrote:

Topofthekey wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:Uh, Embiid is clearly an upgrade. Bam is too. Sabonis is the better player, but worse fit.

It’s ok to love Turner. He’s really good and he’s our guy. But there’s a reason he doesn’t have any all-nba center nods; these other guys are just better. And there’s no shame there.

Disagree on Bam

Bam's ability to defend switches is elite, but he's mediocre on offense. Don't let his 20ppg fool you, he doesn't have range, doesn't have any reliable post moves, hesitates way too much and can't create for himself in general

I honestly would not trade Turner for Adebayo

Bam can absolutely create. Hes scored 20 ppg largely without a distributing type PG for his entire career specifically because he can dribble, drive, and create. While Myles has developed a straight line drive, with maybe one spin or redirection, Vam is able to redirect constantly, because he has a much tighter handle. He’s a better player than Turner, but maybe not a better fit as Indy has a Haliburton/Nembhard/McConnell type lineup at PG.

I’m not saying this to besmirch Myles. I love Myles. But Bam is simply a better overall player. Bam lacks the long range shooting ability that Myles has, but that’s about it. Bam has played as the point center in that Miami lineup over the years.

I wouldn't really call him a point center. To me it looks more like his teammates bailing him out whenever he runs into a wall near the basket, which happens to him a lot due to him not having a reliable set of post moves. He's an above average passer, that's true. I credit him with knowing when to pass when he's in trouble instead of trying to force a shot, but I wouldn't really call it creating for others

Topofthekey wrote:

Scoot McGroot wrote:

Topofthekey wrote:Disagree on Bam

Bam's ability to defend switches is elite, but he's mediocre on offense. Don't let his 20ppg fool you, he doesn't have range, doesn't have any reliable post moves, hesitates way too much and can't create for himself in general

I honestly would not trade Turner for Adebayo

Bam can absolutely create. Hes scored 20 ppg largely without a distributing type PG for his entire career specifically because he can dribble, drive, and create. While Myles has developed a straight line drive, with maybe one spin or redirection, Vam is able to redirect constantly, because he has a much tighter handle. He’s a better player than Turner, but maybe not a better fit as Indy has a Haliburton/Nembhard/McConnell type lineup at PG.

I’m not saying this to besmirch Myles. I love Myles. But Bam is simply a better overall player. Bam lacks the long range shooting ability that Myles has, but that’s about it. Bam has played as the point center in that Miami lineup over the years.

I wouldn't really call him a point center. To me it looks more like his teammates bailing him out whenever he runs into a wall near the basket, which happens to him a lot due to him not having a reliable set of post moves. He's an above average passer, that's true. I credit him with knowing when to pass when he's in trouble instead of trying to force a shot, but I wouldn't really call it creating for others

I wouldn’t minimize it. He can face up the basket, dribble, and pass players open like a Sabonis, to a lesser extent. He can absolutely direct a game for runs. He can absolutely dribble and create plays, though. It’s one of his bigger strengths and why he earned a max contract, on combination with his defensive prowess.

I think Bam is better. Domas is debatable. He's better offensively, but I somewhat cringe at the perpetual layup drills other side of the court. When we had both I recommended we Trade Sabonis. Not because he was inferior, but because he was perceived to be better and would award us with a better return. Also I could more easily envision Turner's deficiencies being covered up than the other way around. That's more about what I can imagine than reality perhaps, but scorers and passers abound while not stopping slop at the rim enrages me. Job one as far as I'm concerned.
We did the right thing.
One more thing.
Bam and Domas appear to have peaked. Really good but I don't see either getting significantly better. However Myles still has room to grow. Playing out of position most of his career and having to cover constantly the mistakes of perimeter defenders I believe has kept him down somewhat. As the pieces around him improve he can, and clearly has begin to flower. If he stays healthy I see him being better this season and next, perhaps earning the nod we are not quite willing to bestow at this time.

Solid wrote:I think Bam is better. Domas is debatable. He's better offensively, but I somewhat cringe at the perpetual layup drills other side of the court. When we had both I recommended we Trade Sabonis. Not because he was inferior, but because he was perceived to be better and would award us with a better return. Also I could more easily envision Turner's deficiencies being covered up than the other way around. That's more about what I can imagine than reality perhaps, but scorers and passers abound while not stopping slop at the rim enrages me. Job one as far as I'm concerned.
We did the right thing.
One more thing.
Bam and Domas appear to have peaked. Really good but I don't see either getting significantly better. However Myles still has room to grow. Playing out of position most of his career and having to cover constantly the mistakes of perimeter defenders I believe has kept him down somewhat. As the pieces around him improve he can, and clearly has begin to flower. If he stays healthy I see him being better this season and next, perhaps earning the nod we are not quite willing to bestow at this time.

I get what you’re saying, but Domas also just played his first full season under a coach who believed in him as a point center, so all the hopes you have for Myles growing ring equally, if not more, true for a Sabonis, too. Bam has simple ways to grow his game (shooting form, mostly). Plus, Myles and Domas are equally 27, and Bam is 26. I find it a little disingenuous for fans (though I’m guilty of it, too) to assert “but my older guy is still growing in his game, while your younger guys are clearly maxed out”. In general, guys he same age as these 3 don’t tend to add major parts to their games. It’s insanely rare to see that. Usually, they all fine tune their skills and better understand their games, limitations, and team needs to better fit into success. All 3 are great players in the prime of their careers, and I see them all doing such little things to continue to fine tune their games.

Well this time, we'll just have to disagree. It is abundantly clear to me that the shortcomings of both Bam and Domas have been recognized from the beginning, and that there's not been any structural reason that prevented their improvement.
I can not say that about Myles at all. It's always been clear that he could diversify his impact if we ever managed to have guys who could keep their man in front of them, and a team chemistry that did not require him to play out of position on offense.
He really had little chance to fix those things before, and that can not be said about the other guys.

Scoot McGroot wrote:I get what you’re saying, but Domas also just played his first full season under a coach who believed in him as a point center, so all the hopes you have for Myles growing ring equally, if not more, true for a Sabonis, too. Bam has simple ways to grow his game (shooting form, mostly). Plus, Myles and Domas are equally 27, and Bam is 26. I find it a little disingenuous for fans (though I’m guilty of it, too) to assert “but my older guy is still growing in his game, while your younger guys are clearly maxed out”. In general, guys he same age as these 3 don’t tend to add major parts to their games. It’s insanely rare to see that. Usually, they all fine tune their skills and better understand their games, limitations, and team needs to better fit into success. All 3 are great players in the prime of their careers, and I see them all doing such little things to continue to fine tune their games.

Sorry Scoot,.. I have to respectfully, to a small degree, disagree. Nate Bjorkgren believed in Doma. It was during his one year that Doma came to understand what he could be. After that, He became an allstar. He understood what & who he is as a basketball player. He was going to become the best version of himself, whether that actually fit our team or not. (I can't fault him for that, at all.)

To be fair to him, at that point, our team didn't really know who it was, so questions of fit were really kinda pointless. The team as a whole didn't really have an identity under Bjork, so there was nothing to 'fit' alongside. So, Doma wasn't really hurting the team. He was just maximizing his own play. I think if he could have maximized his own play AND maximized the team, he would have. That just wasn't possible with all the confusion and noise, so he did what he could do, and played his style within himself to be the best he could. He has been rewarded for that. (His dad also really helped him figure out who he could be.)

Myles, maybe until now, really hasn't had that same opportunity. He's never been the focus of coaching as a primary asset to the team, until now. His first 3 years in the league were a mess, because of the Pacers, not him. He played forward at Texas not center. (they had some other 6'8, long-armed guy without any perimeter skills or the athleticism who had to be hidden at center.) Myles came into the league as a true 'face up' forward with little to no post skills. He had already largely outgrown that type of position. The Pacers couldn't decide if he was a really big forward, or a center. They tried to have him play both; had him working on all the skills to be the f/c off the bench; but never looked at who was gonna become & tried to help him master the skills to develop him into the best version of himself with that goal in sight. He did a lot of development work on his own (remember the aerial yoga?), that probably would have had a larger payoff with someone who could have provided a more practical focus.

As a result, I believe Myles does have more room to grow than Doma. Doma is already making the most of what he is, and now on a team that is built for him to be him; around him making up for their lack of playmaking at other positions; and really has a chance to elevate his team, while he makes the most of himself. I don't think Myles yet knows just exactly what or who his is as a player. He doesn't have this clear idea of who he can be to work toward. Probably means that Myles will never maximize his talents on the court until he does have, and believe in, that picture of himself. According to his own words,. he is now 7'1",.. and when he finally got back in shape last year, was playing at 258. This is his second full year as a center! 00

Doma was traded at the deadline last year. This is Myles first full off season as 'the center' for the team. Up until the end of last year, he was a very 'low mileage' player, a big part of the rotation, but clearly not the person getting the chance at full minutes. I am really interested to see who Myles becomes & more importantly, who he thinks he can be, during the upcoming year. If he gets a clear picture & works like it's his sophomore year in the league, I actually think his ceiling is higher than Doma's, he just has a longer way to go, with less likelihood of success to get there.

So, who is better now?... in terms of counting stats & fit & ability to raise their particular team, today it's probably Doma. Next year,.. I am quite optimistic that it could be Myles.

(Same argument holds true for Bam. He was drafted into a team where he fit perfectly, they showed him & he believed a picture of who he could be, and he grew as a result. There are things he can do to improve, yes. He isn't 'fully maximized', but I think he is closer than Myles.)

Dam,... once again,. I fill a page when I was trying to write a paragraph,.... someday,.... 8{

The thing about Sabonis is that he makes the other players on his team better. Look how much better Aaron Fox is with Dom.

basketballwacko2 wrote:The thing about Sabonis is that he makes the other players on his team better. Look how much better Aaron Fox is with Dom.

Yup agree completely. Doma provides the playmaking that Fox doesn't. The Kings have enough quickness on defense that Doma doesn't get as exposed & can step out to meet people before they get to the rim.

Myles made real strides last year as a defensive quarterback, calling out coverages, calling for switches, not as many blocks but more of an emphasis on team defense, which should pay off more this year. I think Myles will have a chance this year to become a player that improves those around him, particularly on defense. Don't think he's really been in a position to do that till this year.

My comparing days are over . Just Pacers Pacers Pacers now.

We almost got Ayton, Allen was an AS 2 seasons ago (Myles yet), did Gobert fell off a cliff? That's all I have .

I'm surprised and excited . Top 3 seems unlikely but playoffs Turner can definitely be better than playoffs Sabonis.

Happy all of my wishes in the past seasons didn't get fulfilled . Turner Time!

Article on the Pacers backup 5 situation from Indy Star>

https://eu.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2023/10/04/isaiah-jackson-daniel-theis-jalen-smith-fight-for-pacers-backup-job/71027384007/

This year should really be telling. Jalen Smith from the NBA Combine in 2020. Isaiah Jackson from the Kentucky Pro Day before the 2021 season.

PLAYER FAT % HAND L HAND W HEIGHT W/O HEIGHT W/ STAND REACH WEIGHT (LBS) WINGSPAN
Jalen Smith (20.3) 3.70% 9.25 9.25 6'9.25'' 6'10.25'' 9'2.00'' 224.6 7'2.25'
Isaiah Jackson (18.3) -.-- -.-- -.-- 6'9.50" 6'10.50" 9'0.50" 206.4 7'2.50"

Jalen Smith is now 23. Isaiah Jackson is now 21. The article doesn't mention heights, but both have grown since their combine or pro day. The article did say that Stix is now up to 'over 240' with real muscle, and a much stronger lower body. It also said that I-Jacks started the summer league at 230+, and dropped under that while playing. He went back to work after the summer league to get even stronger.

This competition for the backup minutes is going to really be something to watch. I know improving our defense is our main goal for now. After looking at more of the team advanced stats from last year, rebounding has to be right behind. Hopefully, this helps! =]

I don't remember being so wowed by either that I was like we have to go with one over the other. I think it's possible both continue to get fairly regular minutes.

One of the things I've found refreshing about Carlisle is not just sticking with a rigid 9 man rotation. There will likely still be opportunities for both even if one hops in front of the other in the order.

boomershadow wrote:I don't remember being so wowed by either that I was like we have to go with one over the other. I think it's possible both continue to get fairly regular minutes.

One of the things I've found refreshing about Carlisle is not just sticking with a rigid 9 man rotation. There will likely still be opportunities for both even if one hops in front of the other in the order.

Have to agree. It has been really eye-opening for me, to see him get the best not just out of players in development, but out of rotations and plays depending on the team match-ups. Coach has always had a reputation for being an excellent coach, but the work he did last year, really was enlightening on how some this can really fit together.