Hello fellow Pacer fans!

[joew8302]

I am new to this board, but have been reading it for a month now so I thought I would come say hello and introduce myself. I am joe, 24 yrs old from Ohio. I have been a Pacer fan for about 15 years now and recently graduated with a degree in Education.

I have read a lot of posts here and have been impressed with a lot of what I read. I tip my cap to you guys for staying loyal when times are down, and God knows they have been. But here are a few random thoughts I have about players and the team.

David Harrison, Jamal Tinsley- Need to go. Name me the last championship team that had a player suspended because he couldn't control his smoking and a player with as questionable character as JT? The fact is you can't. You win championships with good players that have character, and its obvious to me that both of these individuals lack character so they need to be let go.

Andre Owens- Care to explain to me why this guy doesn't play more? Last time I checked we can't guard anybody, yet on our bench you will find in my opinion our best perimeter defender. Yes I know he has shortcomings, but I do believe his 3 point % is better than both Tinsley and Diener and he is a much better defender than either. I personally feel that should warrant some playing time, a lot more than he has received, but it hasn't.

Danny Granger- Love this kid, very very good player. Will he ever grab the bull by the horns and be more aggressive to be a franchise guy? I am really thinking not. Yes, I am aware O'Brien's use of him leaves something to be desired, but I just don't see Granger being assertive enough to be a franchise cornerstone. I see him as an 18 pt/5 reb per game kinda guy, which I really have no problem with. I just hear people talk how he will be a cornerstone type guy, which I disagree with, but it is not to say I don't love how he plays and acts.

Troy Murphy- One good game followed by 3 bad ones is the norm for him. People really get excited when he has a good game, yet I am not sure why. That is the exception to the rule, not the rule itself. I still have the lasting memory of him playing defense on Rasheed Wallace last week. Murphy is an awful defender and a poorer rebounder than I originally expected. He is only useful if his jumper is falling, which is not near often enough. Add his huge salary to the discussion and he is someone I would love to part ways with.

Travis Diener- We got rid of Armstrong for this? This guy was brought in to be a shooter and has been anything but. There is a reason the Magic didn't want him, and the reson is not because Jameer Nelson and Carlos Arroyo are premier talents. Although it is a minor mistake, locking Diener up seems pretty dumb to me right now.

Kareem Rush- I like his game, but I don't think the Pacers should be too aggressive and break the bank to sign him. Kareem is a very good shooter who can get hot, but that is all. He is an average defender and doesn't give you a whole lot in the way of passing and rebounding. If we can lock him back up for cheap go for it, but thats doubtful. I am really thinking some GM will overpay for this guy and be sorry in the end.



Ok thats all for now. Hopefully we have some good chats in the upcoming week.

[Scoot McGroot]

Welcome to the board JoeW, and thanks for giving us a quick heads up on how you stand!

Don't be afraid to hop in any of the threads such as the trade threads or game threads.

[greenway84]

I like what I hear I dont think there's anything there I didnt agree with. I would like to add a few thoughts though.

Dunleavy - Possibly our best player right now. And even when he doesnt shoot well. He does everything thing else well. A keeper.

Diogu - I do not think he get time here. In addition to that he is not going to do well in this system. He does have potential. So we should make a move with him before that pontential runs out.

Daniels - He is not a sg not a pg but he is a servicable 6th man. However he is paid too much and doesnt play our style. Trade him while we can.

Williams - I love his offense. I would say its better than danny's. However he cant play D. One day we will have to part with one of the two unfortunatly.

JO - I like him a lot (when healthy) He's not a leader and he demands the ball too much. Best D on the team. Howeve at the cost of what we are paying him. It MIGHT be a good idea to trade this offseason.

Foster - probably my 2nd or third favorite Pacer. I do not want to part with him. A lot of teams like him and for good reason. My only concern is if we dont deal him now. We wont be able to resign him later.

Dunleavy/Granger/Foster are the guys to keep. Fill in a young pontential PG, and a PF that can play D and dunk. And I like the lineup. Dalembert Maybe?

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

Welcome to the board man. I didn't see this when I posted it somewhere else.

[joew8302]

Thanks for the welcome guys.

As far as JO this seems to be a black and white issue, not much middle ground. If we do want to trade O'Neal i think we have to be aware that we won't get equal value. Also, if we do trade O'Neal we need to go into rebildng mode. Trading O'Neal for vetran players makes no sense. If we give up JO I would want a combinaion of, or a good amount of expiring contracts/draft picks/yong talent. If we can't get a decent pick, a few promising players or a few expiring contracts along with these options we would be better hanging on to him.

Dunleavy has been the Pacers best player this year IMO. He is locked up through 2012 I believe and I don't see him being traded anywhere fast. His contrct, which once looked awful now looks decent with his production. That said, I am not sure why Bird would say he is untouchable? He isn't exactly young and the Pacers aren't contenders. However to trade Dunleavy I would be more demanding than trading JO. I would want a top 10 pick and a solid prospect to get me thinking about trading Mike, and I am not sure too many teams that have a top 10 pick would want to go in that direction.

[fdefore]

hey there, welcome.

is it rude to disagree with things right off the bat? lol

andre may have a higher % but that is more a result of taking many less 3pt attempts than diener (this year owens is 17/35, diener is 35/106). despite his obvious issues (height, defense, strength) i actually kinda like diener running the offense. he actually gets what the system is about. he's a lot like dunleavy frankly - guys who understand the system (offensively and defensively) who just lack the physical attributes or pure talent to always succeed. specifically on defense with dunleavy - he gets really upset out there at guys like danny and shawne who often look out to lunch (shawne more so than danny). now is dunleavy a great defender? hardly. he gets beaten one-on-one more than i'd like but he gets the system. and i think diener gets the system too. problem is he's a career backup at best.

another thing i'd point out about the malcontent issue you raise with jamaal and championships: miami had a bunch of them (jwill, antoine, even shaq to some extent could be labeled that), rasheed in detroit, depending on where you fall in the stephen jackson argument he won a ring in san antonio... i'm hardly a tinsley fan, i just think its more about the poor attitude coupled with poor basketball IQ.

[joew8302]

disagree away!

I realize Owens has far less attempts. That is to be expected if you look at playing time. To me thats even more impressive when you look at things. Andre barely has had a chance to get his feet wet and is still around 50% from three. I obviously wouldn't expect this to continue, but for a team this bad I would think shooting threes exceptionally well as well as being a great perimeter defender would earn you some playing time. Apparently O'Brien disagrees.


Also it is no secret Dunleavy is not a good defender and has trouble moving his feet. Even the biggest Diener fan would have to admit he is a poor defender as well. Having one bad defender on the court at a time is manageable if the other guys are adequate and can help. Having Diener, Dunleavy and Murphy on the court at the same time is a disaster waiting to happen. I realize there might be times out of necessity where you need two of the three on the court, but in my eyes there is no reason to have all three of those guys on the court at the same time. You might as well just roll out a red carpet to the hoop.

And I respect your views on Diener, and frankly I expected to take some heat over mine. Diener is a decent passer and a relatively smart player. He is also small in stature giving fans someone to relate to and root for in the underdog role. But when you look at why he was brought in (to shoot) and you see he is shooting 38% overall and 33% from three that just won't cut it. I would be more forgiving with Diener if he gave us anything on defense, but he just doesn't. I think overall he was a bad signing, but not a catastrophic one. Good to see your input though.

[Jermainevent]

Welcome to the board Joe, nice to have another Pacer fan in these down times

[glasket]

Hey and welcome man.

I beive this is our first new member since...... me perhaps, which was last June.

Anyway I like the way your thinking about this team in your first post.

Stay around, we need all the fans we can get.

[fdefore]

honestly i'm not a raging diener fan. jamaal is head and shoulders above diener as far as talent BUT diener since becoming a starter is running the system on offense quite well. diener is a shooter and just like rush was really shaky at the beginning of the year, until you gave diener long run his shooting was going to be off. diener has improved shooting since starting for the most part. i don't think he is remotely a long-term answer, as i said career backup at best. while i appreciate andre's defense, he just doesn't seem to initiate the offense all that well.

i don't think diener is a bad signing essentially he cost us a mid-1st rookie deal. so consider him a rookie, if he was a first year player averaging those numbers i doubt anyone would complain about his #s. we needed shooters and the best shooters on the market (carroll, kapono) were given large expensive contracts. so i can live with it. diener didn't get a ton of play in orlando because of arroyo and nelson and dooling so this in a lot of ways is his first full season.

ultimately diener is the least of our worries as a franchise. i guess that was my point.

[joew8302]

Kapono was out of our price range, but Carroll signed for 6 years 27 million. I think that would have been a number Indiana could have competed with personally.

Jamal makes me sick sometimes. I about had convulsions watching the Phoenix game. While Jamal is obviously the most talented all around PG we have, he hasn't quite embrced the role of being a point guard.

I also hope Dieners shooting numbers improves and he proves me wrong about not liking him. I do kind of disagree with the attempts. At this point in the season you are what you are. I think the amount of shots he has taken is about an accurate representation of where he is now. I hope he proves me wrong on this and improves his shooting percentage greatly, but we shall see.

[Scoot McGroot]

Kapono was out of our price range, but Carroll signed for 6 years 27 million. I think that would have been a number Indiana could have competed with personally.

Well, that 6 years/$27 million doesn't seem bad at $4.5 million a year, but 6 years is pretty bad, and is essentially what Marcus Banks got and Phoenix immediately regretted.

[joew8302]

Maybe it would turn out to be bad, only time will tell. I don't think there are five better long range shooters than Carroll in the league though. He would be great in O'Briens offense, but oh well, that ship has sailed.

[TSC25]

Welcome to realgm,and the Pacers board.

[bballpacen]

Travis Diener- We got rid of Armstrong for this? This guy was brought in to be a shooter and has been anything but. There is a reason the Magic didn't want him, and the reson is not because Jameer Nelson and Carlos Arroyo are premier talents. Although it is a minor mistake, locking Diener up seems pretty dumb to me right now.

First off, welcome!! It is always good to expand our family here on this particular board. Dont be a stranger.

Second, it is a good thing that a former poster here cant reply... he would flip out

[count55]

While I seriously doubt his ability to be anything more than a solid backup, I think Diener has at least performed at a level that is justifying his contract. I mean, $1.7mm as a peak is (sadly) pocket change in the NBA now, and if he can give what he's given over the last month or so, we're OK.

As always, however, we still need to find a longterm full-time solution for starter at the point (unless, of course, a mad scientist somewhere can fix Jamaal's "Dr. Magic/Mr. Droopy" malady...yeah, we should keep looking.)

[Miller4ever]

David Harrison, Jamal Tinsley- Need to go. Name me the last championship team that had a player suspended because he couldn't control his smoking and a player with as questionable character as JT? The fact is you can't. You win championships with good players that have character, and its obvious to me that both of these individuals lack character so they need to be let go.

I do not disagree with your overall point that character is paramount. However, it IS possible to win with idiots. Dennis Rodman, for example. And Antoine Walker, Jason Williams fr the Heat.

[mizzoupacers]

Welcome to the board, Joe!

I think the only unequivocal "keeper" on the current roster is Granger. Williams is probably next in line IMO, he's flashed enough talent (and is still so cheap on his rookie contract) that it probably makes a lot more sense to give him time than to trade him at this point.

Dunleavy is growing on me.

And I'm not one to overlook O'Neal's talent, plus I hate the way he's become a lightning rod for the team's misfortunes. But, well...if only he could stay healthy and didn't cost $20 million a year.

Couldn't agree more that there are some guys who badly need to go. Harrison will be gone soon enough. Tinsley, though, is a toughie. No way we get rid of him at this point short of making a deal at disadvantage that we'd all hate (just like the Jackson and Artest trades).

That's what sucks about the NBA...the CBA imposes such tight restrictions that it's really hard to recover from dismal failure (unless Kevin McHale used to play for you and gets confused as to which team he is trying to make better). I'm a pretty politically liberal guy, and on principle I like a structure that empowers the workers, aka the NBA's collective bargaining agreement. But the downside is that if your workers are immature, irresponsible boneheads, then you are pretty well screwed by a system that imposes lots of restrictions on management's ability to clean house.

[Grang33r]

Joe - Welcome to the forum. You may want to re-think being here though, it's very addicting. lol

In all seriousness, glad to see another Pacers fan here. This is a very good and smart community of fans and hopefully soon we'll have alot of brighter topics to talk about. lol

[joew8302]

Haha thanks for the warm welcomes guys, it is much appreciated. Yes, I know teams win with idiots. Dennis Rodman was an idiot for sure. Even he though didn't go around commiting felonies and breaking the law every year though. If our point guard can't use more discretion off the court then how do you expect him to make good decisions on it? Jamal Tinsely doesn't make good decsions anywhere and can't be trusted IMO.

At thi point I am not sure there is a market for JT. I think we will have a tough time unloading him for anything near value. Point guards that aren't quick, don't play defense and shoot less than 40% from the field, 30% from 3 and average over 3 turnovers per game aren't exactly in high demand. I still am just very frusturated with his play and have felt the Pacers have given him all too long to prove himself, which he hasn't.