Trade Ideas for Next Season

[DannyGranger]

Hey Im new here. Ive been working on some ideas to turn this team around. I really want to get rid of Tinsley. Hes a really good player but, lets be honest, he doesnt play much. I think we need to improve our defense. Our offense seems to be clicking, but we are giving up too many points. I thought of sending Tins, Dunleavy, and Daniels to the Bulls for Hinrich, Nocioni and Sefolosha. I know getting rid of Dunleavy is going to be hard because he played so well for us this season, but to be honest, I'd rather have Nocioni, someone who can bring that defensive intensity that we once had. I dont mind getting rid of Daniels. Hes getting paid quite a bit and not really producing. I would rather give those mins to Shawne Williams. Hinrich is simple, hes a good team leader and his defense is pretty good. Heres the trade, for some reason its not working, i thought the salaries matched up well http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.ph ... id=4567881.

Another trade I had in mind was to ship JO out. I've kind of given up on him now. Hes been injured for too long and doesnt seem to be getting any better. I thought of shipping him to Portland (theres talks that Portland is ready to deal, because they're too young right now and want some experience) for Frye, LaFrentz and Przybilla. Frye has shown the past few games in Portland that when he gets his mins he can play, this kid just need his confidence to grow. LaFrentz is plain and simple, hes an expirer with a pretty nice contract. Przybilla is merely a throw in to get the contracts to work. The only reason why I dont see Portland doing this is because they have Aldridge and Oden already. Heres the trade http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.ph ... id=4567890

This would leave our starting 5 as:

Hinrich
Granger
Nocioni
Diogu (Im still not giving up on him)
Frye

Bench: Murphy (he could possibly start too), Foster, Shawne Williams, Rush, Diener, Flip

Also, keep in mind that we have a pretty good pick this year also. If we could get a guy like Kevin Love, then we could push Frye back to the PF and Love at C, in about a year or 2.

Let me know what you guys think of these trades.

[FreeRon]

Haha the conspiracy theorists on this board would go wild...and Love is too small to play C in the NCAA, let alone the NBA. Overall, the Bulls move is a lateral move at best and the Blazers deal gives away a high risk/high reward JO and takes back three low risk/low reward players. Maybe the 3 together are better than JO playing hurt, but even that's questionable.

[mizzoupacers]

Someone over at PacersDigest.com floated the idea of a Tinsley for Quinton Ross trade with the Clippers. Dunno if that has any chance of happening, but the general outlines of a trade like that are maybe possibly semi-plausible, IF we can find a trade partner that is desperate enough for a pg. Point guards can be really hard to find.

Trading Tinsley for a perimeter defense specialist works for me: the Pacers REALLY need to get rid of Tinsley, and they could definitely use a guy who could come off the bench behind Dunleavy/Granger and provide 20-25 minutes of good defense against high-scoring guards.

In all honesty, I think that Tinsley is going to be next to impossible to deal anytime soon, but you never know.

I can't see JO going anywhere this summer. If the Pacers try to trade him, they are going to get low-balled something fierce. I'm guessing we're better off just riding out the last two years of his contract if it comes to that. At the very least, hang onto him for a year and then see what he's worth as an expiring contracto grande.

Daniels we need to keep for another year so that we can wipe $7 million off the books next summer. Diogu too. That's the only way I see the Pacers being able to afford the first year of Granger's extension.

[ahartleyvu]

Honestly, I think we will end up trading Tinsley for next to nothing and he will go to another team and play some very good basketball. He has always been a good player with his only downfall being a poor shot selection and injury history. The right system, team, and/or coach can easily fix the shot selection. As far as injuries, I think a motivated Tinsley will be a healthy Tinsley. With a little luck as well.

[Scoot McGroot]

For all intents and purposes, I agree ahartleyvu. Tinsley's got some great talent. However, due to off-court decision making ability, shot selection, ability to fit in in the clubhouse, injury history, and motivation deficiencies, I just can't see him succeeding to his fullest here in Indy. He's probably a lot like Stephen Jackson. Talented players, but just not going to succeed fully until they get a change of scenery. No matter how well Tinsley will play elsewhere, it doesn't really impact us as he simply is not going to achieve that type of success here.

[ahartleyvu]

Right. I just wish some other team would share the same thoughts as us.

We are really in a BAD situation. Our "franchise" player in JO is often injured, and to be honest - he needs a change of scenery as well. However, no one wants to pay full value for him because of his contract/injury history. So if we go for a rebuilding process, we are stuck with basically nothing in return for our star player.

Then you have Murphy, who is a decent player with a large contract. It's doubtful that we will be able to dump him AND replace his value.

We also have Dunleavy, large contract, really good player and there is no way we get an acceptable amount of value in return.

Basically we have :

ONE good/great player that has no baggage or injury history - Granger
One prospect with questionable ethical issues - Williams
One prospect (arguable) who really hasn't accomplished anything - Diogu

I am just depressed over missing playoffs 2 years in a row.

[count55]

For all intents and purposes, I agree ahartleyvu. Tinsley's got some great talent. However, due to off-court decision making ability, shot selection, ability to fit in in the clubhouse, injury history, and motivation deficiencies, I just can't see him succeeding to his fullest here in Indy. He's probably a lot like Stephen Jackson. Talented players, but just not going to succeed fully until they get a change of scenery. No matter how well Tinsley will play elsewhere, it doesn't really impact us as he simply is not going to achieve that type of success here.

The big difference between Tinsley and Jackson is that Jackson stayed healthy.

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

-= original quote snipped =-



The big difference between Tinsley and Jackson is that Jackson stayed healthy.

I think most of Tinsley's injuries are nothing. Last year he predicted he would play every game...he got very close. The fact that he said he would be healthy and he mostly was shows that its more of a motivation thing. I've never seen someone who has more day-to-day injuries that end up keeping him out for months. I think once he gets his rest, he likes all of his free time and doesn't have the desire to return to practice every day.

I'm not saying his injuries aren't real. I'm saying they keep him out a lot longer than they should.

[APerna]

You guys know I don't pump my work on the board, but I suggested trading Dunleavy for T.J. Ford in Toronto. I know you guys really like Dunleavy, but I believe we have to trade him while his value is high and the Raptors need a scoring wing.

Of course, such a deal would also be contingent on us finding a suitor for Tinsley...

http://pacers.realgm.com/articles/132/2 ... as_engine/

[Grang33r]

You guys know I don't pump my work on the board, but I suggested trading Dunleavy for T.J. Ford in Toronto. I know you guys really like Dunleavy, but I believe we have to trade him while his value is high and the Raptors need a scoring wing.

Of course, such a deal would also be contingent on us finding a suitor for Tinsley...

http://pacers.realgm.com/articles/132/2 ... as_engine/

Agreed. I wouldn't mind trying to deal Dunleavy and honestly, i wouldn't be shocked if they did. There were reports at the trade deadline that Pacers were trying to deal him. I know they said thats false but who knows. If they bait him, it doesn't mean they will trade him. If the right deal is available, i don't see the point of not pulling the trigger.

We have Danny Granger at SF and Dunleavy can not be a SG on a good playoff team. Normally i'd say playoff team, but IMO anyone out side the top 6 in the east isn't a real playoff team.

We need a new backcourt and only way of doing it is dealing either Dunleavy or Granger and well.... Granger isn't going anywhere any time soon.

[Scoot McGroot]

-= original quote snipped =-



I think most of Tinsley's injuries are nothing. Last year he predicted he would play every game...he got very close. The fact that he said he would be healthy and he mostly was shows that its more of a motivation thing. I've never seen someone who has more day-to-day injuries that end up keeping him out for months. I think once he gets his rest, he likes all of his free time and doesn't have the desire to return to practice every day.

I'm not saying his injuries aren't real. I'm saying they keep him out a lot longer than they should.

Tinsley reminds me a lot of Marcus Camby in terms of health. Both are eternally day to day, with their "day to day" injuries likely to also last much longer.

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

You guys know I don't pump my work on the board, but I suggested trading Dunleavy for T.J. Ford in Toronto. I know you guys really like Dunleavy, but I believe we have to trade him while his value is high and the Raptors need a scoring wing.

Of course, such a deal would also be contingent on us finding a suitor for Tinsley...

http://pacers.realgm.com/articles/132/2 ... as_engine/

Did you see my idea in the trade forum a few weeks back?

I proposed Dunleavy, Foster, Deiner for Ford, Parker, Kapono.

Most Toronto fans like it a lot. I figure in this scenario we get a good SG(Parker) to replace Dunleavy, and he should immediately improve our defense. We have to tak on Kapono's contract, but even then I think he'd be a good fit into our offense as a bench player.

Ford
Parker
Granger
O'Neal
Murphy

Honestly though, I'm not as high on Dunleavy as everyone else is. I think he is the main reason our defense is awful. Obviously with JO out we are going to take a hit, but he had a tough time staying in front of anyone, so our entire defense would collapse making up for it. Not to mention I think we should trade him while his value is high. I understand most people here disagree with me though.

[blaha112]

I'd like to keep Tins. He was top 5 in assists this year. If he stays healthy (this has to happen at some point right?) he's great.

[cdash]

No, it doesnt have to happen at some point. I say trade him for scraps. Trade him to Phoenix, they seem to have a miracle medical staff (keeping Shaq, Hill, and Nash mostly healthy is a feat). I just think he needs a change of scenery, and we need to move past him. It will benefit all parties involved...much like trading Stephen Jackson resussitated him and got us a keeper in Dunleavy. The fans here will never embrace Tinsley again, and its a shame but it is what it is.

[fdefore]

I guess I'm crazy because I really don't see how trading to replace our overpaid, oft-injured PG with an overpaid, oft-injured (career-threateningly so) PG helps our situation at all -- other than the fact that it isn't Tinsley.

Let's take a gander, shall we?


Tinsley has 3yrs / $21.6mil, Ford has 3yrs / $25.9mil left

Since 03-04
Tinsley has played 245/410 games (59.7%)
Ford has played 253/410 games (61.7%)

Since 03-04
Tinsley has avg. 11.6ppg / 6.5apg / 1.6spg / 2.9TO
Ford has avg. 9.1ppg / 5.4apg / 1.0spg / 2.1TO

Does this really seem like the brand new direction the Pacers want to travel?



On top of that, if you listened to the final JO'B Show, Jim makes it fairly clear we need a defensive PG (because in his defense both the PG and the C account for 60% of the defense).



It isn't about me loving Dunleavy or Tinsley. I'm over Tinsley completely and I'm totally cool with selling high on Dunleavey (selling high would be a first since Dale Davis really). I just don't see trading for TJ a step in the right direction.

[JarrettJackSG]

I'm not sure that T.J ford is our solution, I'd much rather get someone else, Jameer Nelson and Duhon comes to mind.

[fdefore]

Given Obie seems like he is looking for a defensive PG and our lack of stellar trading assets, Earl Watson would seem the best choice out there.


SONICS IN: Marquis Daniels
SONICS OUT: Earl Watson, #32

CAVS IN: Jamaal Tinsley, Stephen Graham
CAVS OUT: Eric Snow, #19

PACERS OUT: Marquis Daniels, Jamaal Tinsley, Stephen Graham
PACERS IN: Earl Watson, Eric Snow, #19, #31


TRADECHECKER approves. I also confirmed it works with next year's salary numbers (courtesy of ShamSports).

WHY DO THE SONICS DO THIS?
For 08-09 they take on slightly more salary (less than $1mil) but as Marquis has a team option, they trade that extra couple thousand to avoid paying Earl Watson's additional year. They own many picks for this year's draft and use an early 2nd as a sweetener for the extra year.

WHY DO THE CAVS DO THIS?
Depends how the playoffs work out for them this season. But to compete with Boston, Detroit and even Orlando, they're going to need an upgrade at PG. The Cavs are already WELL over the threshold so they commit to making a run immediately before Lebron can bolt for the Brooklyn Nets. Tinsley is definitely an upgrade over Delonte West (who isn't a playmaker) and Mike Brown knows him well from his Pacers days. The biggest reason to grab him is the relatively cheap price: Eric Snow. They get to take a guy who will make $7+mil next season and turn him into a starting PG and bench filler (which they'll need to complete their roster).

WHY DO THE PACERS DO THIS?
First - to move on from the Tinsley era. At this point the Pacers have had the Tinsley/O'Neal combination longer than they had the Miller/Smits combination and much less to show for it. Watson is a defensive PG and has a year less than Tinsley. Trade Daniel's exp for Snow's exp - who would most likely be bought out or used as a strong locker room presence. Cut about $1mil off for 08-09. They also get a couple more draft picks to add to their own (#11, #19, #32, #41) to help fill out their roster or make other moves.

That'd leave us with 13 (14 w/o cutting Snow) roster spots. And if the picks work out it could make it much easier to part with Williams, Diogu and Foster in later trades -- maybe even Dunleavy.

You've got three capable defenders in the starting lineup and hopefully a couple on the bench which would be a nice improvement.

I'm not overly excited about Watson but he gives us defense and a shorter contract than Tinsley.

[Scoot McGroot]

fdefore, I can't imagine the Cavaliers would be willing to include a 1st round pick as well as an expiring contract to take on Jamaal Tinsley and his contract. At best, you might be able to convince them to swap Snow and his expiring for Jamaal and his 3 year deal, and I'd be quite ok with that. If they'd swap me straight up, I'd take it and run. Stephen Graham also has a team option and likely won't be included in any trades. He simply has no value around the league via trade, and would only be usable as salary filler if necessary, but in a deal like this, his contract isn't guaranteed anyways, so it's not like we're saving any money. We'd just be guaranteeing his deal to then trade him and save the same amount of money we could have saved by just not guaranteeing his deal.



As for the Sonics deal, you might be able to pull that exact deal off to save them long-term money. However, I wouldn't pull that Sonics deal unless I could move Tinsley in something like the Cleveland deal.

[mizzoupacers]

If we could trade Tinsley for Eric Snow's expiring contract, I would be all for it. Let's face it, it's going to be really tough to get anything positive in a trade for a guy who misses half the season every year, is a PR nightmare, and still has three years left on his deal. An expiring contract, relative to being stuck with Tinsley, is something positive.

I share fdefore's thoughts on T.J. Ford. Ford is probably better than what we have now, but he's not the answer. And Dunleavy is WAY too much to give up for him.

[fdefore]

Fair point about Graham.

I guess we disagree about Tinsley's value. I look at what Portland swung for Zach Randolph (Frye, Francis) and to me I see that Tinsley is injured more but has less baggage than Randolph did (Underage drinking, punching teammate, sexual assault, street racing). Now I realize one is Danny Ferry and one was Isiah Thomas but Francis (who was to be bought out but was physically capable of playing) and Frye (a former lottery pick) got Randolph -- it seemed Snow (who will probably never play another NBA minute) and a late first for a guy who'll give around 11.6ppg / 6.5apg / 1.6spg / 2.9TO at a position Cleveland needs a lot of help in isn't bad. If you think the #19 is too much, you think a future second is too much too?