First Post and Quick Thoughts

[HicksvsKnicks08]

I wont bore you with how long I have been a Pacer fan etc. I/m glad to be on this board and glad that we finally, as Pacer fans, have a lot to talk about. After the last 3 sumers of "Will JO/Tinsley be Healty" or some cosmic dream of somehow getting a NBA star off another team. It's very refreshing

I thought long and hard about Bird's moves. It's easy to say in retrospect that Bird should have pulled the trigger earlier to get a little more for O'Neal, but all things considered he did very well. He achieved the "holy trinity" of expiring contract, solid starter, and draft pick. Alothough I still said then and now I wish he would have gotten Bynum. I dont think Ford can reach the possibilities of a guy like Bynum. Still, he could have done a lot worse

My first reaction on draft night was pretty much like evreyone else. From shear joy that we took Bayless to utter shock when we traded him. The next night after calming down, I realized the only real problem I had with the draft was Bird could have gotten more. First how do you trade the 11 for the 13 pick, especially when a prosect who was projected to go top 5 falls in your lap, and not get more? Portland wantd to move their 13th Pick anyway. Iam convinced we could have kept Bayless AND found a way to get Rush from them (foster,daniels pick whatever)KP wanted a veteran. Or at least Bird could have had them give us Aurthur, since Bird said he was so high on him.

Hibbert I think will suprise. One thing not talked about is his outlet passes. He can outlet the fast break to Ford. I think he will be the best center of this class, including both Lopez.

Finally, I think Bird is trying to trade Dunleavy. As much as they like him, I think his value is at an all-time high. I think that is a real reason we drafted Brandon Rush. Look towards teams like GS (lost Baron Davis) to try and dump Tinsley(they owe us that much) and for a trade for asolid PF.


Sorry soo long

[HicksvsKnicks08]

How humbling, I just saw my "ranking" :ball boy

I feel like DeAndre Jordan lol

[FreeRon]

Anything about the Pacers, even if it's personal stuff like how long you've been a fan, is not boring. It gives us some idea of what you've been through as a fan and how much you'll remember from years past...although if you go too far back you'll only have count to talk to

I was upset at first that we didn't get Bynum as well, but I'm not too disappointed with it now. Bynum still has to show he can come back from his injury...if not, we'd have the same problem now with a big guy with knee problems only he'd have a smaller contract. If we had gotten Kwame along with him we'd just be getting the expiring money a little quicker (and who's out there this summer that we want and could afford?), but if we got LO like we were pushing for we'd be stuck trying to move his contract. As it is, we got an expiring contract, a starting PG (which we desperately needed), and a guy in Roy Hibbert who only last year a lot of people would have preferred to Bynum. If it turns out last year for him was just a fluke or a consequence of running in a different system or something stupid like that then this deal could very well be a better deal than the LA trade would have been.

As to the Portland deal, that was arranged before the draft so had we known Bayless would fall to us we could've gotten more but had it been Augustin instead we would've gotten less. The two teams pre-arranged the deal to give the Pacers back talent in between Augustin and Bayless, so when Bayless fell to us Portland may have gotten the better of that deal. I personally am not a fan of Bayless at all, though, so I like the trade either way.

[FreeRon]

Oh, and welcome to the Pacers RealGM forum!

[Scoot McGroot]

Welcome to the board HvK08 (sorry, I like shortening screennames, makes it easier to type constantly).


I feel pretty similar to you about the Bayless deal, but I disagree a bit on the JO deal; namely, I don't think Bynum was ever offered for JO. If he was, then we messed up. If he wasn't, which is most likely, then we did better getting Ford than going after Odom and Kwame.

[Miller4ever]

Welcome.

Scoot, HvK08 seems to be some kind of part that's missing from my printer, which would explain why everything just keeps coming out yellow.

Also, to I think the correct plural for Lopez is Lopez's, but I would've also accepted Lopi. I'm not going to police spelling, though, seriously, and don't you go apologizing for long posts. Put what you want out there, and if somebody is too lazy to give your opinion the respect it apparently deserves, then they could just choose not to read it, and their eyes land immediately upon the troll right below who says something like "LOL Tinsley is like a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) Llama" or something like that. In this case it's not true, because you responded to your own post.

As for your actual post, sir (going to assume sir because it says you are a "ballBOY"and you did not shirk the title), the observation that you made about Dunleavy is a really interesting one, whether it is accurate or not. I can see him being traded after his solid showing this past season, and since he is older compared to the rest of the team, I can see him getting moved for younger parts, although management has expressed their desire for him to remain.

On draft night, I saw the moves that Bird made and the one that is most controversial is the Bayless trade. I think that Bayless is more of a gamble than Rush. When you don't do as much on a winning team, people tend to look you over in favor of the more depended on players. Rush has proven that he plays well with others, operates efficiently within a system, but can still put up numbers when called upon, and most importantly, he know what winning feels like, and it's a very underrated quality. It's the reason why Boston fans continue to get championships from teams that really should let others get a turn.

Once again, welcome to the Pacer's board and I know you will find that we have more people who post relating to the given topic than the other boards.

[HicksvsKnicks08]

Thanks Guys, much appreciated. By the way Scoot, congrads on the wedding! Much love and longevity to you and yours.

AS far as the draft goes people brought up an intersting point about the Pacers and Blazers already having a "deal" in place prior to the draft. While this may be true, and it may be a gentlemens' agreement, does that mean if like a mircale happended(ie Rose/Beasley ) slipped to the 11th pick, we were supposed to still hand them Rose or Bayless? Who knows , but interesting none the less. Scoot, my friend we obviously will never know the truth about what we could have gotten for O'Neal. Prior to last year I really believe that we could have gotten him for Bynum/Brown/ etc. But thats spilled milk anyway

What do you guys thin is the value of Dunleavy in the open market?


Thanks again guys, nice to be here

[count55]

Welcome to the board.

I'm not convinced that Bird should've (or even could've) gotten more for Bayless. Essentially, the deal was for Portland to move up two spots, from 13 to 11. A smart GM, which Pritchard is, won't give up more than he gave up (Jarrett Jack) to make that move.

What's more, while I'm sure that the discussions beforehand were "either Bayless or Augustin", it seems likely to me that both teams probably expected to be Bayless. The mocks the teams do in house have historically been far more accurate than the media, primarily due to a combination of higher actual expertise and closer inside knowledge. While it was only in the last couple of days before the draft that Bayless fell, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Pacers and the Blazers had known, or at least strongly suspected, that Bayless would be available at 11 since the end of the workouts a week or two earlier. In that case, the deal was negotiated at a time where neither team was thinking that Bayless carried a market value of a "Top 5 pick". While Portland may have had them "4th on their board", we don't know where they had Rush or Augustin. We also don't know if Portland was bothering to include Rose and Beasley on their board given their unattainability. Additionally, indications are that the Pacers probably had both Westbrook and Augustin ahead of Bayless on their board.

So you had both the market and the Pacers own view of Bayless driving his value down. To get more, you'd have to gamble on exactly how much Pritchard wanted Bayless. Add into that the distinct likelihood that Rush is the guy we wanted, which would impact exactly how much value we placed in the package we received. Finally, while this will likely be disproved sooner or later, as of today, Jarrett Jack was the best player involved in the trade. He's the only one who has proven that he can play in the NBA.

In short (too late ), while we and the media may value Bayless more than Augustin, it's not readily apparent that Bird, Pritchard, or many in the NBA do. Pritchard's strength is not overpaying for things, and I think both sides negotiated a good-faith, fair value trade for Portland to move up from 13th to 11th. I think the Pacers have an excellent chance to come out of this deal in very good shape.

Regarding the JO to LA deal, I believe that the rumors since then have been consistent enough to believe that Bynum was never offered to the Pacers in any package. That asking for both Odom & Bynum was too much is correct in hindsight, but at the time, it seemed reasonable to me. JO was supposedly healthy, and through February of the previous year, he had averaged 20/10/3. I was comfortable with the risk, but we did end up with the worst case scenario.

As to Dunleavy, I believe his value as a player is pretty decent, but his value as a contract is still somewhat negative. I'd be concerned that we'd have to discount him to move him, and I'm not sure what kind of deal we could make that would actually improve us on the floor. The best (but really slim) hope would be that we could use him as the core of a deal to bring in someone like Shawne Marion, but I don't think that's particularly realistic. We're probably better off keeping him for another year.

[mizzoupacers]

Welcome, Hicks v. Knicks!

I was pissed on draft night that we traded Bayless, but now that I've calmed down I'm willing to suspend judgment and wait to see how it turns out. I'm satisfied with what we got in trade for a guy who after all is utterly unproven in the NBA at this point. Rush and Jack are, I think, two good players who both are good fits on our roster. They will make the Pacers a better team. Maybe Bayless will blow up in our faces, but if that happens, no use crying over spilled milk.

Also, I really hope the Pacers keep Dunleavy, he should be a good player for us for the duration of his contract (although eventually I hope he will be a super sixth man rather than an out-of-position starting two guard, once Rush shows he is ready to start). But IMO the Pacers probably need to somehow acquire a dangerous low-post scorer before they can make the leap from marginal playoff team to legit contender. And Dunleavy might be the best trade bait we have to accomplish that.

[joew8302]

Welcome to the board! I am from Ohio and living in South Carolina, so this is really the only place to get Pacer talk. It is always nice to see other fans on here.

I was sick on draft night and I still am. I think Bayless has a legitimate shot to be a very very good player, similar to Monte Ellis. I think Rush will be decent, ala Deshawn Stevenson. I think Bird got ripped off big time. I very much agree with you that he could have got A LOT more for Jerryd Bayless if he had put him on the market.

I do also disagree with you in the fact Bynum was offered. I don't think he ever was as Kupcheck was in love him. Odom had also said he didn't want to be in Indiana, which made the Pacers/Lakers not good trading partners. I think Bird did well with the Toronto deal, I am not sure how much more, if anything JO could have brought in.

All in all great first post, hopefully many more follow.

[Scoot McGroot]

Thanks Guys, much appreciated. By the way Scoot, congrads on the wedding! Much love and longevity to you and yours.

AS far as the draft goes people brought up an intersting point about the Pacers and Blazers already having a "deal" in place prior to the draft. While this may be true, and it may be a gentlemens' agreement, does that mean if like a mircale happended(ie Rose/Beasley ) slipped to the 11th pick, we were supposed to still hand them Rose or Bayless? Who knows , but interesting none the less. Scoot, my friend we obviously will never know the truth about what we could have gotten for O'Neal. Prior to last year I really believe that we could have gotten him for Bynum/Brown/ etc. But thats spilled milk anyway

What do you guys thin is the value of Dunleavy in the open market?


Thanks again guys, nice to be here

Thanks. I appreciate the well wishes.



As for Dunleavy on the open market? I think it's a bit higher than what most fans on RealGM other than Pacers fans think it is. We here probably would overrate him a bit, while everyone else would severely underrate him thinking of his GS days. I think his value could possibly net us a solid PF like a Udonis Haslem (most likely in a 3 way deal, I can't see Miami wanting Dunleavy's contract).

[count55]

As for Dunleavy on the open market? I think it's a bit higher than what most fans on RealGM other than Pacers fans think it is. We here probably would overrate him a bit, while everyone else would severely underrate him thinking of his GS days. I think his value could possibly net us a solid PF like a Udonis Haslem (most likely in a 3 way deal, I can't see Miami wanting Dunleavy's contract).

Wow...don't you think that would be a huge discount, talentwise, for Dunleavy? I mean, I don't think I'd trade Foster for Haslem, let alone Dunleavy...and that's considering the contract differential.

I'm not saying that's not what his value on the market was, but if that's the case, we're far better off keeping him, IMO.

[Scoot McGroot]

Eh, I just might over-rate Haslem a bit, or might be including Dunleavy's contract a bit too much.

[joew8302]

I am not sure Mike is on the market. It wasn't long ago Larry Bird stated that Dunleavy was the teams only untouchable, even ahead of Granger.

[cdash]

I am not sure Mike is on the market. It wasn't long ago Larry Bird stated that Dunleavy was the teams only untouchable, even ahead of Granger.

When did he say that? I remember him being reluctant to trade him, but I dont ever recall him being put above Granger. Not to say it didnt happen, Lord knows I've been wrong before.

[count55]

The comment from the star after Bird's press conference a couple days before the draft:

The Pacers have plenty of options because every player except Mike Dunleavy and Danny Granger is available. Bird said it would be "very hard" for him to move Dunleavy or Granger because he views them as vital.

He doesn't differentiate, nor do I recall him saying one over the other when I listened to the interview. However, cnnsi had reported shortly before the draft that the Pacers had been calling around the league at the trade deadline telling teams that everybody but Danny Granger was available. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/w ... index.html

O'Neal may just be the first domino to fall in Indiana. Sources say Indiana was willing to trade everyone but small forward Danny Granger at the deadline. "They made it clear they were willing to blow it up," a Western Conference executive said. Contrary to reports, front-office sources say the Pacers have been shopping forward Mike Dunleavy -- who is owed $29.3 million over the next three seasons -- while showing some reluctance to part with center Jeff Foster, who is considered a favorite of coach Jim O'Brien.

[HicksvsKnicks08]

I apologize , that I dont have the exact quote or source, but I read a snipet from I believe insidehoops.com that quoted a western confrence GM as saying " Bird has indicated he is willing to blow up the team, and anybody is tradeable with the exception being Danny Granger." 'Contrary to popular reports Bird is willing to move Dunleavy"

Who knows how reliable the GM is but it seems to imply that Granger is the only 'untouchable"

[HicksvsKnicks08]

Thanks count 55 fr the quote

[joew8302]

cdash

Before the Indiana/Miami game in Miami (the second one last year) their was a RealGM article that mentioned Bird saying that. Things may have changed since then, but that certainly caught most off guard.

[Grang33r]

I apologize , that I dont have the exact quote or source, but I read a snipet from I believe insidehoops.com that quoted a western confrence GM as saying " Bird has indicated he is willing to blow up the team, and anybody is tradeable with the exception being Danny Granger." 'Contrary to popular reports Bird is willing to move Dunleavy"

Who knows how reliable the GM is but it seems to imply that Granger is the only 'untouchable"

I think it's how you read into it. In my opinion, what he means is, Granger is the face of the team, so not only on talent, but his other features is what makes him untouchable.

Dunleavy is untouchable too, in a realistic senerio. If, Portland offers Greg Oden in a deal for Dunleavy, you'd have to make the trade. That is unrealistic though but if an opportunity, of even like Elton Brand for Dunleavy, you do it. That also won't happen. I think that is what he means, they will keep their eyes open but its very unlikey, thus making him untouchable.

Btw, welcome to the forum. Always good to see new people.