OT: Raiders least desirable team to play for

[Twinkie defense]

Oakland general manager Reggie McKenzie has received kudos for the draft class he put together in 2014 but he’s also been criticized for some of the high picks he made in previous years. It’s imperative to the team – and for his job security – that McKenzie hits a home run with his first-round pick this year.

I agree - in fact those are the exact words I used, Reggie needs to hit a home run. Drafting Amari Cooper seems like the right choice. If the Raiders take someone else there, that will be a very bold move by Reggie... and also risky for his job prospects, especially if Cooper becomes a stud in the League.

[Neddy]

just my humble 2 cents on this matter... I do not wish for Reggie to draft a WR with our #4 overall pick and rather we trade down or spend the pick on DL.

here is why.

who are the greatest WRs of all time? the stats say Jerry Rice. some of the faithful of the nation will say Tim Brown. others may also bring up Randy Moss, fred biletnikoff, Steve Largent, Lynn Swann, James Lofton, Marvin Harrison, Michael Irvin, Don Hutson, or even Terrell Owens. but none of the guys I listed are a top 5 pick in their respective drafts.

in fact, the list of WRs who were drafted as top 5 picks is not very impressive at all.

http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/in ... fifth.html

I would much rather that we trade down to pick up Kevin White and more pieces or we pick up one of the remaining DLers such as Leonard Williams whom i don't think will be available by 4th, and Randy Gregory or Shane Ray. no matter who we pick, drafting a WR in top 5 is really in essence, drafting down no matter who you pick.

[GoRapstheoriginal]

I agree with Neddy. We have more holes then just 1 top 5 draft pick is going to fix...imo.

[Twinkie defense]

Penn talking about Gabe Jackson, says he's a beast, loves playing next to Gabe.

[Twinkie defense]

I'm OK with trade down, but only if it brings a bounty - not Menelick and DJ Hayden.

[Quake Griffin]

I'm OK with trade down, but only if it brings a bounty - not Menelick and DJ Hayden.

This about the actual picks or only getting a 1st and a 2nd?

[Quake Griffin]

just my humble 2 cents on this matter... I do not wish for Reggie to draft a WR with our #4 overall pick and rather we trade down or spend the pick on DL.

here is why.

who are the greatest WRs of all time? the stats say Jerry Rice. some of the faithful of the nation will say Tim Brown. others may also bring up Randy Moss, fred biletnikoff, Steve Largent, Lynn Swann, James Lofton, Marvin Harrison, Michael Irvin, Don Hutson, or even Terrell Owens. but none of the guys I listed are a top 5 pick in their respective drafts.

in fact, the list of WRs who were drafted as top 5 picks is not very impressive at all.

http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/in ... fifth.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

I would much rather that we trade down to pick up Kevin White and more pieces or we pick up one of the remaining DLers such as Leonard Williams whom i don't think will be available by 4th, and Randy Gregory or Shane Ray. no matter who we pick, drafting a WR in top 5 is really in essence, drafting down no matter who you pick.

Couldn't agree more. Reggie has experience building good receiving cores in GB without using 1st rounders at all. Greg Jennings/ James Jones, Jordy Nelson/ Randall Cobb are all second rounders….except Jones. Jones was a 3rd rounder.

I dont think a single top 5 WR pick made it past the wild card round this year and I don't think any top 5 WR picks (Andre, Fitz, Megatron, Green and Julio) has ever made their average QB better than average.

I'd rather build up front first and give Carr a run game before anything else or give Mack and Moore some bullies up front to make life easier for them.

[FNQ]

Hayden is already a top 30 CB with upside.. Did it without a legitimate pass rush too. Reggie has had 6 day 1/2 picks, and has hit on 5/7: Hayden, Mack, Gabe, Carr, Sio. Menelik is TBD, Bergstrom a miss.

Seems like even in the eyes of some experts, Reggie is taking the beating for the overall state of our team, which obviously wasnt his doing.

[FNQ]

FTR, I disagree that top 5 WR have helped their teams QBs get better: Megatron, Fitz, AJ, Julio.. I think theyve made their QBs look far better than they are. The difference between them and Amari is physicals: I would NEVER draft a non physical freak WR in the top 10. Ever. Bust rate is just way too high. There are few gamechanging WRs that are of average build - Antonio Brown and who else? So why are we rolling the dice with a #4 pick on Cooper being one? Could easily be the next Peter Warrick.. Give me Gregory, Williams, Ray, Peat, or Stanley instead. Lets keep building our true strengths - defense and running the ball. I'd love to slowly develop Carr that way instead of needing him to be Rodgers.

[Twinkie defense]

I'm OK with trade down, but only if it brings a bounty - not Menelick and DJ Hayden.

This about the actual picks or only getting a 1st and a 2nd?

Both - it depends on who is available at the picks we receive. And the better/more picks we receive, the better chance of getting it right. It did not go right last time we traded down.

It did go right the last time the Raiders used their top 5 pick.

Sammy Watkins was a great pick at #4 last year. Julio Jones was a great pick at #6 in 2011. You don't want to reach for a positional player but if a WR is a top five player in the draft of course you take him - BPA + need pick, what could be better?

[Twinkie defense]

Hayden is already a top 30 CB with upside.

Top 30, lol. Is he even the best CB on the Raiders?

[Twinkie defense]

The Raiders way is the big strike. We have the QB who can air it out, now we need a guy who can take the top off the defense and go get the ball. Being able to do that will also help the run - if the Raiders are only completing short passes, defenses will stack the line of scrimmage.

[FNQ]

The Raiders way is the big strike. We have the QB who can air it out, now we need a guy who can take the top off the defense and go get the ball. Being able to do that will also help the run - if the Raiders are only completing short passes, defenses will stack the line of scrimmage.

The Al Davis way is the big strike. And he's dead, so lets move on.

Marginal players can become deep threats once the short and intermediate games are shored up. It doesnt work building long threats first. Football 101, something Al discarded in his later years. Results speak for themselves - JaMarcus, Campbell, Collins, George, DHB.

[FNQ]

Hayden is already a top 30 CB with upside.

Top 30, lol. Is he even the best CB on the Raiders?

Yes. You continually hold health against him talent wise, which would be baffling if your bias wasnt so profoundly obvious. Lowest QBRTG against is him, and thats with him lining up against the #1s more often than not, with a rotating list of safeties behind him.

Thankfully websites like PFF exist that account for the details of the game. Tarrell Brown and later Carrie had Woodson behind them, except for the last 2 games where Hayden and Carrie switched sides. But by then, Woodson was gassed and B Ross was solid.

[Twinkie defense]

No, every team has it's identity and the Raiders identity is to go for touchdowns, not first downs. If the Raiders are going to be three yards and a cloud of dust I don't want anything to do with it - just like I wouldn't want anything to do with a Warriors team playing grind-out half-court 90s Pistons ball. That's not the Warriors.

[FNQ]

Lmfao @ Watkins being a great pick at 4. All of a sudden health problems dont matter. Looks like a low-end #1, good route runner.. Worth the #4 pick and what they gave to get it? Helllll no.

Which reminds me, I'm all about Josh Gordon being a Raider.

[FNQ]

No, every team has it's identity and the Raiders identity is to go for touchdowns, not first downs. If the Raiders are going to be three yards and a cloud of dust I don't want anything to do with it - just like I wouldn't want anything to do with a Warriors team playing grind-out half-court 90s Pistons ball. That's not the Warriors.

Strategy is defined by who's on the roster, not the logo on the helmet. Your argument is absurd.

[Quake Griffin]

FTR, I disagree that top 5 WR have helped their teams QBs get better: Megatron, Fitz, AJ, Julio.. I think theyve made their QBs look far better than they are. The difference between them and Amari is physicals: I would NEVER draft a non physical freak WR in the top 10. Ever. Bust rate is just way too high. There are few gamechanging WRs that are of average build - Antonio Brown and who else? So why are we rolling the dice with a #4 pick on Cooper being one? Could easily be the next Peter Warrick.. Give me Gregory, Williams, Ray, Peat, or Stanley instead. Lets keep building our true strengths - defense and running the ball. I'd love to slowly develop Carr that way instead of needing him to be Rodgers.

Maybe I misspoke and I try not to misspeak. I've seen situations where a WR has made a QB "better" or made the game easier for them (whichever one you want). TO and McNabb comes to mind.

But two things.
1) The elite passers in our game (Brady, Luck, Rodgers) don't seem to need the elite WR…and neither does Russell Wilson btw;
2) I've seen enough trash throw to Fitz and Andre over the years and I've watched Ryan, Dalton and to a lesser extent Stafford stay mediocre over their career with those weapons.

Does Julio take Matt Ryan from sucky to average? I dunno. Really hard to parse out. But I'm trying to emulate what wins in this league and not just what works from time to time on offense.

I'm OK with trade down, but only if it brings a bounty - not Menelick and DJ Hayden.

This about the actual picks or only getting a 1st and a 2nd?

Both - it depends on who is available at the picks we receive. And the better/more picks we receive, the better chance of getting it right. It did not go right last time we traded down.

It did go right the last time the Raiders used their top 5 pick.

Sammy Watkins was a great pick at #4 last year. Julio Jones was a great pick at #6 in 2011. You don't want to reach for a positional player but if a WR is a top five player in the draft of course you take him - BPA + need pick, what could be better?

It's a need that can be addressed in another way.
I'd rather win up front than go after a skill player that I'm not sure about. I'd rather build up our defense or develop a run game for Carr than to take a gamble on a skill player I'm not sure about.

I'm not sure if Sammy is a top 5 player of that year's 1st round.

Mack
Donald
ODB
Evans
Martin
Mosley

It's ARGUABLE (did not say etched in stone) that all of those guys are better than him….and the Bills didn't just take him there. They gave up a first from this year's draft to get him. Yikes.

and with that said. I like Watkins as a better prospect than Cooper. So you should know I'm not that thrilled about getting him at the 4 slot.

[Twinkie defense]

No, every team has it's identity and the Raiders identity is to go for touchdowns, not first downs. If the Raiders are going to be three yards and a cloud of dust I don't want anything to do with it - just like I wouldn't want anything to do with a Warriors team playing grind-out half-court 90s Pistons ball. That's not the Warriors.

Strategy is defined by who's on the roster, not the logo on the helmet. Your argument is absurd.

Derek Carr is on the roster! He's not there to hand the ball off.

[FNQ]

He's here to help win games. Let's not pretend he's a star already.. He has potential but part of realizing it is bringing him along slowly. Very few QBs have sustained success when asked to do too much too soon. Meanwhile, we have a quality running back and some very good pieces on defense. Rather than gambling high draft picks on pass catchers, keep building the D and look for value pass catchers. Vincent Jax can be had cheap, Bolding was traded for a 6th, Steve Smith was cut along with Desean.