I'm wondering that with the way the Jays have been playing lately, especially in the clutch, does it not seem a trifle delusional for Ricciardi to thus far be standing pat at the trade deadline, especially if it is due to the fact that he likes the team so much? Or, is it that some of you believe that the injuries have not allowed certain team members to get on a groove and that is why the team should be kept, to see what they can do next season, injury-free?
For me, I point the finger squarely at Ricciardi for this year's offensive debacle. The signing of Frank Thomas after one relatively good season as a .270 hitter did not make much sense to me, especially after losing 2 quality good contact hitters in Hillenbrand and Catalanatto that helped set the table for our offense. Losing those two hitters for Frank, I believe has shifted the dynamic on this team to a swing for the fences mentality because there isn't as much of a safety net in the offensive lineup. As well, I asked myself, why did Ricciardi go after Frank with so much vigour when he has a player like Glaus that fulfills the exact same function? All in all, despite the fact that Johnson, Overbay and Zaun, all good contact hitters were injured during the season, Ricciardi's moves definately put a stress on the hitters of this team.
Unlike some, I just can't see it being ENTIRELY Brantley's fault because the hitting was really good a year ago. In other words, Brantley just couldn't go from being a good hitting coach to a bad one. Rather, it is more likely to be Ricciardi's poor judgement of the offense + the injuries.
I mean, even with the pitching being so bright this year, Ricciardi supposedly misjudged what he had in the organization, instead looking to sign guys like Thompson, Okha and Zambrano. It looks like both Marcum and McGowan had reached a level of maturity to start this year and perhaps LUCKILY, because of the injuries, they were given a chance. But, hypothetically, with no injuries, McGowan and Marcum may still have been doing bullpen work or being kept in triple A, especially with Ricciardi filling their roles in with washed up players being signed. Of course, this may not entirely be Ricciardi's fault as it is possible that Gibbons, Arnsberg or others in the org. misjudged their readiness as well.
Finally, I don't know about some of you, but I would like to see either Glaus or Thomas, or both moved at the deadline. I know this won't happen because of Ricciardi's delusions or because another team won't offer enough, that is in Ricciardi's mind, for compensation. Plus, I think that with our bullpen and pitching staff looking good, Towers is expendable as well as Jason Frasor (who seems to mess up everytime a pressure situation comes up). What do you think?
Is Ricciardi Delusional when he says he likes this team?
Moderator: JaysRule15
Is Ricciardi Delusional when he says he likes this team?
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fliszt25
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Huskies1947
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JP should be fired. When they brought him in he had a 5 year plan and this is the 6th year into his 5 year plan. Gord Ash would have done a better job with this newly found payroll than JP.
John Gibbons is horrible too. This team has a country club atmosphere. Do not get me started on that bum Vernon Wells.
John Gibbons is horrible too. This team has a country club atmosphere. Do not get me started on that bum Vernon Wells.
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Michael Bradley
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Like I said before, JP never intended to do anything at the deadline. He never does. Even if this team was 10 games under or over .500, nothing meaningful would have occured. At this point, he's looking out for his own job. A +.500 finish will likely save his job, and that's really all he cares about at the moment. Paul Godfrey appears to be just as clueless.
It's frustrating. When I see a criminally underappreciated cheap young player like Wilson Betemit (3B/SS) traded to the Yankees for a good but unspectacular middle reliever, it just makes me stratch my head and wonder what the heck Ricciardi was doing when this was going on. I can understand being gunshy about moving Glaus, but Ricciardi is likely not even going to move Stairs, Towers, Clayton, Downs, Frasor, etc, for some help (like Betemit). He's just going to sit on his hands like he always does and at the end of the year give his usual "if everyone was healthy...." tagline.
Gord Ash peaked at 88 wins, but ultimately made this a treadmill, overpaid .500 team. Six years after Ash's dismissal, and we're right back in that same spot.
It's frustrating. When I see a criminally underappreciated cheap young player like Wilson Betemit (3B/SS) traded to the Yankees for a good but unspectacular middle reliever, it just makes me stratch my head and wonder what the heck Ricciardi was doing when this was going on. I can understand being gunshy about moving Glaus, but Ricciardi is likely not even going to move Stairs, Towers, Clayton, Downs, Frasor, etc, for some help (like Betemit). He's just going to sit on his hands like he always does and at the end of the year give his usual "if everyone was healthy...." tagline.
Gord Ash peaked at 88 wins, but ultimately made this a treadmill, overpaid .500 team. Six years after Ash's dismissal, and we're right back in that same spot.
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fliszt25
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Michael Bradley wrote:Like I said before, JP never intended to do anything at the deadline. He never does. Even if this team was 10 games under or over .500, nothing meaningful would have occured. At this point, he's looking out for his own job. A +.500 finish will likely save his job, and that's really all he cares about at the moment. Paul Godfrey appears to be just as clueless.
It's frustrating. When I see a criminally underappreciated cheap young player like Wilson Betemit (3B/SS) traded to the Yankees for a good but unspectacular middle reliever, it just makes me stratch my head and wonder what the heck Ricciardi was doing when this was going on. I can understand being gunshy about moving Glaus, but Ricciardi is likely not even going to move Stairs, Towers, Clayton, Downs, Frasor, etc, for some help (like Betemit). He's just going to sit on his hands like he always does and at the end of the year give his usual "if everyone was healthy...." tagline.
What I'm even more concerned about is that our prospects are down to about zip (not counting the recent draft). Thus, why not start to rebuild in some places that badly need it? Look at what Texas has done. Acquiring excellent prospects for Texeira and Gagne. That's how you build a team up.
Well, I guess you may be right when you say JP is only out for his job. The Frank Thomas move was such a spectacle and just seemed designed to satisfy the average Jays fan in bringing over a 'big name' free agent. There didn't seem to be enough concern over what we lost in our offense in order to gain another redundant power bat. I mean, Catalanatto was let go for nothing and he contributed way more to our team last season than Thomas has done this year.
And you're right about relievers although I would still keep Downs because he's a lefty and useful. I especially don't see what the point is of keeping Jason Frasor in our lineup. Even now, before Ryan returns and with League returning to form, we are stockpiled with pitching help in the bullpen. At least try and trade Frasor to a contender for a prospect.
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whiterasta80
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Thoughts on Riccardi
1. Frank Thomas-- Signed after a late stage career year with the A's, is giving us exactly what I thought he would (25 HR and 80 RBIs). That's still more production than we've got out of DH in a long time, but he's a candidate to break down and is an automatic DP after a single. Should have been moved, but don't eat his contract (I assume JP thought the same on this one actually-- probably didn't get any offers that met those criteria).
2. Troy Glaus-- is giving us the same solid 100-120 game season one could expect. Was signed after another late stage career year with 'zona and I assume that Riccardi had visions of this guy eventually getting the franchise record for HR's in a season... the truth is he'll never play enough for that. Productive guy when healthy, but his health is dwindling. We also have precisely zero 3B prospects above A ball. Should have been moved in a deal that brought a 3B stopgap back (Betemit?), again I'm not eating any of his deal.
3. Vernon Wells-- signed a McContract in the offseason, after a career year even though he had never showed an ability to carry a team himself. Worse than that, he got pudgy, and slowed (more at the plate then in the field). Has seemingly convinced himself that he can be a straight pull hitter and chokes like a rookie prostitute in clutch situations (he did that even before the contract). Borderline impossible to deal right now because of what he's due down the road. Should have traded him last offseason, can't now.
4. Matt Stairs-- Giving more value than just about anyone on the team in terms of contract. Solid corner guy off the bench who is having a phenomenal season, could have helped every single team contending for the playoffs. Unless he asked not to be- he should have been traded.
5. AJ Burnett-- Has been surpassed by McGowan and Marcum on the staff at this point, but he can still throw when healthy. John Gibbons is responsible for the current injury and JP's decision to torpedo his trade value is unfathomable. JP was stupid enough to buy into the "potential" after a relatively solid year with the Marlins, I'm betting another GM would too. 3-4 quality starts in August would have been enough to move him before the waiver deadline (or at least get someone to claim him), but now every GM in the league is going to demand that we eat some of his salary. I'm betting he shows up in an opt out year next year- and if our moron manager doesn't run him out there for 130 pitches every start (We're seeing the effects of Jim Leyland on the tigers staff right now) he'll recover some value. Should never have been on the DL this time, should never EVER have been publicly criticized, and should have been moved at the waiver deadline (likely for a high level prospect). Now we'll have the same decision next year. JP should be fired on this situation alone.
6. Scott Downs-- Journeyman lefthander has a season where he establishes himself as a setup man on the Jays and has alot of value at the deadline. Sound familiar?? That's because Scott Schoenweiss did it a couple years back. Instead of shipping him out for a decent prospect, we held onto him and he had a 6 ERA the next season. Last seen being shipped out with us eating his contract. You HAVE to capitalize on Downs' career season.
The fact is that Riccardi completely and utterly misreads career years and its crippling our team. He fails to capitalize on players who won't repeat, assumes that injury plagued players will repeat healthy seasons and his record for developing (his own) players is suspect at best. More than that, his moneyball philosophy and refusal to bunt, steal bases or play any small ball has alienated fans who like exciting baseball. I will personally contribute to the buyout of his contract for the good of toronto blue jays baseball.
1. Frank Thomas-- Signed after a late stage career year with the A's, is giving us exactly what I thought he would (25 HR and 80 RBIs). That's still more production than we've got out of DH in a long time, but he's a candidate to break down and is an automatic DP after a single. Should have been moved, but don't eat his contract (I assume JP thought the same on this one actually-- probably didn't get any offers that met those criteria).
2. Troy Glaus-- is giving us the same solid 100-120 game season one could expect. Was signed after another late stage career year with 'zona and I assume that Riccardi had visions of this guy eventually getting the franchise record for HR's in a season... the truth is he'll never play enough for that. Productive guy when healthy, but his health is dwindling. We also have precisely zero 3B prospects above A ball. Should have been moved in a deal that brought a 3B stopgap back (Betemit?), again I'm not eating any of his deal.
3. Vernon Wells-- signed a McContract in the offseason, after a career year even though he had never showed an ability to carry a team himself. Worse than that, he got pudgy, and slowed (more at the plate then in the field). Has seemingly convinced himself that he can be a straight pull hitter and chokes like a rookie prostitute in clutch situations (he did that even before the contract). Borderline impossible to deal right now because of what he's due down the road. Should have traded him last offseason, can't now.
4. Matt Stairs-- Giving more value than just about anyone on the team in terms of contract. Solid corner guy off the bench who is having a phenomenal season, could have helped every single team contending for the playoffs. Unless he asked not to be- he should have been traded.
5. AJ Burnett-- Has been surpassed by McGowan and Marcum on the staff at this point, but he can still throw when healthy. John Gibbons is responsible for the current injury and JP's decision to torpedo his trade value is unfathomable. JP was stupid enough to buy into the "potential" after a relatively solid year with the Marlins, I'm betting another GM would too. 3-4 quality starts in August would have been enough to move him before the waiver deadline (or at least get someone to claim him), but now every GM in the league is going to demand that we eat some of his salary. I'm betting he shows up in an opt out year next year- and if our moron manager doesn't run him out there for 130 pitches every start (We're seeing the effects of Jim Leyland on the tigers staff right now) he'll recover some value. Should never have been on the DL this time, should never EVER have been publicly criticized, and should have been moved at the waiver deadline (likely for a high level prospect). Now we'll have the same decision next year. JP should be fired on this situation alone.
6. Scott Downs-- Journeyman lefthander has a season where he establishes himself as a setup man on the Jays and has alot of value at the deadline. Sound familiar?? That's because Scott Schoenweiss did it a couple years back. Instead of shipping him out for a decent prospect, we held onto him and he had a 6 ERA the next season. Last seen being shipped out with us eating his contract. You HAVE to capitalize on Downs' career season.
The fact is that Riccardi completely and utterly misreads career years and its crippling our team. He fails to capitalize on players who won't repeat, assumes that injury plagued players will repeat healthy seasons and his record for developing (his own) players is suspect at best. More than that, his moneyball philosophy and refusal to bunt, steal bases or play any small ball has alienated fans who like exciting baseball. I will personally contribute to the buyout of his contract for the good of toronto blue jays baseball.
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fliszt25
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You have some good insight in here and I generally agree with your thoughts on Ricciardi.
To add to what you've said, Thomas could not be moved because of the ridiculous amount of money JP paid for him. Again, it goes back to what you've said about going crazy on players because of career years. Plus, Thomas was the wrong fit for the needs of this team. I'm still wondering why JP let the Cat go for no reason.
Last year, Troy Glaus was more useful than he is this year but I just see him and Thomas as similar types of players. It's not that Troy has had a bad year although his homeruns are down. It's just that I am sick of seeing him strike out in that clean up role. We have too many low average hitters on the team and Glaus, while his power was a good commodity in the context of a high average team last year, is really dragging us down this year. Also, you are right that he is looking a bit fragile and that is why JP should have tried to unload him.
Vernon Wells was a tough one to gauge. I don't completely blame JP on that one because Wells has USUALLY given solid production (it wasn't only based on one career year), however, yes, the signing was again inflated and now we're stuck with him. Despite Vernon's bad play, let's hope that it is this season that is the anomaly; but the fact that he has put on weight and pulls every pitch like some one-dimensional automaton is a bad sign. Hopefully, a new hitting coach could breathe some life into Wells.
Matt Stairs was a gem that Ricciardi may have just decided to unearth because he was from Canada and would appease some kind of patriotic nature in the fans (see Corie Koskie). I happen to think the Stairs signing is more luck than anything and yes, even though I love what he's done this year, if we could have gotten one good young prospect for him from a contender, then why not trade him.
AJ Burnett is the one player I give Ricciardi the most sympathy on. One, because there was such a push, even from the media at the time, to go out and get a quality starter, and Burnett was the guy mentioned. Again, Ricciardi's mistake was the contract, way too high and way too long for someone who is high risk, high reward. And yes, John Gibbons is an absolute fool for what he did to Burnett and deserves to be fired for that and that alone. Making him average 120 pitches/game completely ruined what could have been a great season for Burnett. However, at the very least, Burnett's injury has given Jesse Litsch playing time.
As for Scott Downs, even though you do have a point about career years, I just like keeping him in the pen because he is our best and most experienced lefty while Ryan is injured. Plus, who else is John Gibbons going to put into games to face one batter!
To add to what you've said, Thomas could not be moved because of the ridiculous amount of money JP paid for him. Again, it goes back to what you've said about going crazy on players because of career years. Plus, Thomas was the wrong fit for the needs of this team. I'm still wondering why JP let the Cat go for no reason.
Last year, Troy Glaus was more useful than he is this year but I just see him and Thomas as similar types of players. It's not that Troy has had a bad year although his homeruns are down. It's just that I am sick of seeing him strike out in that clean up role. We have too many low average hitters on the team and Glaus, while his power was a good commodity in the context of a high average team last year, is really dragging us down this year. Also, you are right that he is looking a bit fragile and that is why JP should have tried to unload him.
Vernon Wells was a tough one to gauge. I don't completely blame JP on that one because Wells has USUALLY given solid production (it wasn't only based on one career year), however, yes, the signing was again inflated and now we're stuck with him. Despite Vernon's bad play, let's hope that it is this season that is the anomaly; but the fact that he has put on weight and pulls every pitch like some one-dimensional automaton is a bad sign. Hopefully, a new hitting coach could breathe some life into Wells.
Matt Stairs was a gem that Ricciardi may have just decided to unearth because he was from Canada and would appease some kind of patriotic nature in the fans (see Corie Koskie). I happen to think the Stairs signing is more luck than anything and yes, even though I love what he's done this year, if we could have gotten one good young prospect for him from a contender, then why not trade him.
AJ Burnett is the one player I give Ricciardi the most sympathy on. One, because there was such a push, even from the media at the time, to go out and get a quality starter, and Burnett was the guy mentioned. Again, Ricciardi's mistake was the contract, way too high and way too long for someone who is high risk, high reward. And yes, John Gibbons is an absolute fool for what he did to Burnett and deserves to be fired for that and that alone. Making him average 120 pitches/game completely ruined what could have been a great season for Burnett. However, at the very least, Burnett's injury has given Jesse Litsch playing time.
As for Scott Downs, even though you do have a point about career years, I just like keeping him in the pen because he is our best and most experienced lefty while Ryan is injured. Plus, who else is John Gibbons going to put into games to face one batter!
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whiterasta80
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On a team that isn't likely to contend, I'd be perfectly happy with throwing Tallet out there for the single batter. Alternatively we could bring up Purcey and see if he can fill that need. I don't think being in the minors much longer can serve him any good.
I actually didn't mind the Burnett signing as much as I've minded how he's been handled since he got here. Looking back the length of the contract bothers me more than the money. But I'm more upset with the public criticism, and Gibbons' overuse.
I actually didn't mind the Burnett signing as much as I've minded how he's been handled since he got here. Looking back the length of the contract bothers me more than the money. But I'm more upset with the public criticism, and Gibbons' overuse.
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Geddy
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fliszt25
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whiterasta80 wrote:On a team that isn't likely to contend, I'd be perfectly happy with throwing Tallet out there for the single batter. Alternatively we could bring up Purcey and see if he can fill that need. I don't think being in the minors much longer can serve him any good.
I actually didn't mind the Burnett signing as much as I've minded how he's been handled since he got here. Looking back the length of the contract bothers me more than the money. But I'm more upset with the public criticism, and Gibbons' overuse.
Tallet has been a nice surprise this year but he has a bit of trouble like most of our bullpen does in the pressure situations (even Downs does). I like Downs experience especially since our bullpen is so young.
Also, I guess I'll have to agree with you about the length of time of the Burnett contract being its most ridiculous feature. That much time is a huge gamble on a high risk/high reward commodity that was already known to spend time on the DL in Florida.
Plus, JP is a complete fool for his tirade on Burnett. I don't care how frustrated he is, you don't call someone out when they are injured especially in the context of Gibbons' overuse of him. The public criticism is also shameful. It's just that the public sees that JP spent all this money on a player who isn't entirely panning out because he can't stay healthy. Well, the money and the 5 year commitment is JP's fault. JP is the one who deserves the brunt of the criticism, not for getting Burnett but for how he got him.
It's kind of similar with Wells although Wells struggles are increasingly noticable because our hitting wreaks this year. Yep, Wells hasn't panned out and because he signed that huge contract he is the public's favorite whipping boy. I'm not a fan of Wells right now either but I'm not yet willing to give up on him and call him a bum like some people are. Plus, since the entire team with the exception of Rios and Stairs are struggling to hit, there are other problems besides Wells' struggles that contribute to our poor offense. The abscence of good contact hitting is my theory.
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fliszt25
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rkid wrote:Stairs should have been moved already considering the numbers he has put up in the amount of games he has played. I don't think his stock will ever get higher than it is now, at this stage of his career.
I agree. Good job to JP again for standing pat at the trade deadline on a 40 year old with such a high ceiling who is going to lead us to the post season, because JP believes so much in the team that he himself built (go figure). Of course, maybe no team wanted Stairs (although I find that a bit hard to fathom).
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kelso
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This team has no balls and lacks any overall leadership from management, coaches and players alike. If they had any stones whatsoever they would have taken care of Chicago and TBay, but instead, even with the best ERA in the American League since the all star break, they lose more ground on Boston and the wild card.
JP, Godfrey, Gibbons- thay all have to go. As for the players, Stairs and McDonald aside, the veterans are letting this team down bigtime. Hill, Rios, Johnson, and the young pitchers are the only reason we are even close to .500. Even Halladay has been mediocre by his standards. Wells and Glaus had 27 hr/78 RBI each last year at this time and Thomas was having an MVP season. Burnett can't decide if hes hurt or not, Chacin has disappeared and is irrelevant at this point and I forgot BJ Ryan was even on this team. The Accardo deal was a fluke and the only good deal I can remember JP making since he's been here, including any signings.
This season is nothing but tragic and a huge diappointment.
JP, Godfrey, Gibbons- thay all have to go. As for the players, Stairs and McDonald aside, the veterans are letting this team down bigtime. Hill, Rios, Johnson, and the young pitchers are the only reason we are even close to .500. Even Halladay has been mediocre by his standards. Wells and Glaus had 27 hr/78 RBI each last year at this time and Thomas was having an MVP season. Burnett can't decide if hes hurt or not, Chacin has disappeared and is irrelevant at this point and I forgot BJ Ryan was even on this team. The Accardo deal was a fluke and the only good deal I can remember JP making since he's been here, including any signings.
This season is nothing but tragic and a huge diappointment.
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fliszt25
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kelso wrote:This team has no balls and lacks any overall leadership from management, coaches and players alike. If they had any stones whatsoever they would have taken care of Chicago and TBay, but instead, even with the best ERA in the American League since the all star break, they lose more ground on Boston and the wild card.
JP, Godfrey, Gibbons- thay all have to go. As for the players, Stairs and McDonald aside, the veterans are letting this team down bigtime. Hill, Rios, Johnson, and the young pitchers are the only reason we are even close to .500. Even Halladay has been mediocre by his standards. Wells and Glaus had 27 hr/78 RBI each last year at this time and Thomas was having an MVP season. Burnett can't decide if hes hurt or not, Chacin has disappeared and is irrelevant at this point and I forgot BJ Ryan was even on this team. The Accardo deal was a fluke and the only good deal I can remember JP making since he's been here, including any signings.
This season is nothing but tragic and a huge diappointment.
It's highly tragic except for the emergence of 3 quality starters which is the only silver lining.
Halladay was also a concern to me too; however, recently he's done a bit better but even he's felt the heat from this anaemic offense we have surrounding him.
As for trades, this is the only fair mark I'd give JP as a GM. The trade for Accardo may have been a fluke but he also did well with acquiring Overbay for 3 players that haven't had great careers up to this point. Also, at the time, Troy Glaus for Hudson and Bautista made sense because, believe it or not, the team was starved for power. Other than the fair trades, his signings have been horrible and the farm system is almost void of talent.
And you're right about the recent road swing but it was almost predictable with the way this team has gone all season. However, scoring a total of 8 runs in 3 games against Tampa's worst pitching was something not even I could predict. There just isn't a safety net of reliable hitters besides Rios in the lineup to shoulder the offensive load. And have you ever seen Glaus get as frequently angry as he gets after he strikes out? Last year, it was ok for him to strike out as much as he was doing but this year, he, and the rest of the hitters feel an increased burden up at the plate because their isn't anyone (besides Rios) that they can count on for timely, contact hitting. Losing both Catalanatto and Hillenbrand, and gaining a redundant Thomas is responsible for that. Thank you JP.
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Michael Bradley
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Guy Smiley wrote:There was a time I enjoyed posting about the Jays but now that Michael Bradley agrees with me I have lost my zest to contribute.
Yep. When we agreed on the Garnett trade, that's when I realized that the magic was gone. Forever.
It was easier to take Ricciardi's side when he showed some promise (2002-04). Now it's getting harder to even acknowledge his good points. In hindsight, giving him more money to spend was the worst thing that could have happened to him. He became less and less efficient as he got more money to spend.
Either way, I hope we disagree when a new GM comes in. I can't take all this agreement.