The Trey Lance thread

[Jikkle]

Overall impressions: I just don't see an awful game that would make me think the guy isn't worth getting another shot. Yes, there are things to work on. A couple missed throws, though overall I thought he threw it pretty well given the conditions, other than a couple times when it clearly got away from him. Some bad decisions, including not seeing the DB in the middle of the field on the INT. Got to improve that, but it's the sort of thing Jimmy did constantly.

The OL was pretty shaky at times in this one, but Lance also got skittish any time there was pressure. He needs to do a better job moving in the pocket and keeping his eyes downfield. A couple times, it seemed like he bailed too early. I'm also guessing that he failed to see open guys at times, or pull the trigger when he did see them (the missed TD to Deebo is the most conspicuous example). But he threw several really nice balls in the 15-25 yard range, and moved the team fairly well. That said, we repeatedly failed to punch it in.

Anyway, makes me want to see more of him more than anything.

I said it at the time that he didn't have an awful game that some fans were proclaiming he had. The loss to the Bears was a team loss IMO where the offense could've done better but the defense should've been better as well.

The Lance situation is one of the more bizarre things I've seen it's like the team drafted a guy that was raw and needed development and because he didn't just start and play like a 10-year vet he's a bust and completely awful.

I've stressed in the past there is legit concern and criticism to be had with Lance but it's somehow ballooned into if he's not razor sharp and perfect every single play he sucks.

What makes it weirder is fans are ready to name Purdy the next Joe Montana even though he's done things that Lance would get eviscerated for if he did the same thing.

Make no mistake Purdy did play great it's just that I'm not convinced that he'll ever reach a level beyond that and a level that you can win Super Bowls with. Lance to me has the talent to be a better version of Purdy if they are patient enough to develop him and not run him into the ground.

[Pattersonca65]

Overall impressions: I just don't see an awful game that would make me think the guy isn't worth getting another shot. Yes, there are things to work on. A couple missed throws, though overall I thought he threw it pretty well given the conditions, other than a couple times when it clearly got away from him. Some bad decisions, including not seeing the DB in the middle of the field on the INT. Got to improve that, but it's the sort of thing Jimmy did constantly.

The OL was pretty shaky at times in this one, but Lance also got skittish any time there was pressure. He needs to do a better job moving in the pocket and keeping his eyes downfield. A couple times, it seemed like he bailed too early. I'm also guessing that he failed to see open guys at times, or pull the trigger when he did see them (the missed TD to Deebo is the most conspicuous example). But he threw several really nice balls in the 15-25 yard range, and moved the team fairly well. That said, we repeatedly failed to punch it in.

Anyway, makes me want to see more of him more than anything.

I said it at the time that he didn't have an awful game that some fans were proclaiming he had. The loss to the Bears was a team loss IMO where the offense could've done better but the defense should've been better as well.

The Lance situation is one of the more bizarre things I've seen it's like the team drafted a guy that was raw and needed development and because he didn't just start and play like a 10-year vet he's a bust and completely awful.

I've stressed in the past there is legit concern and criticism to be had with Lance but it's somehow ballooned into if he's not razor sharp and perfect every single play he sucks.

What makes it weirder is fans are ready to name Purdy the next Joe Montana even though he's done things that Lance would get eviscerated for if he did the same thing.

Make no mistake Purdy did play great it's just that I'm not convinced that he'll ever reach a level beyond that and a level that you can win Super Bowls with. Lance to me has the talent to be a better version of Purdy if they are patient enough to develop him and not run him into the ground.

Lance has superior physical talent but whether he has the ability to see the field and process to be a better version than Purdy is a big question mark. Lance is far from that and may very well be a good but nothing better or even as good as Purdy.

[Samurai]

Overall impressions: I just don't see an awful game that would make me think the guy isn't worth getting another shot. Yes, there are things to work on. A couple missed throws, though overall I thought he threw it pretty well given the conditions, other than a couple times when it clearly got away from him. Some bad decisions, including not seeing the DB in the middle of the field on the INT. Got to improve that, but it's the sort of thing Jimmy did constantly.

The OL was pretty shaky at times in this one, but Lance also got skittish any time there was pressure. He needs to do a better job moving in the pocket and keeping his eyes downfield. A couple times, it seemed like he bailed too early. I'm also guessing that he failed to see open guys at times, or pull the trigger when he did see them (the missed TD to Deebo is the most conspicuous example). But he threw several really nice balls in the 15-25 yard range, and moved the team fairly well. That said, we repeatedly failed to punch it in.

Anyway, makes me want to see more of him more than anything.

I said it at the time that he didn't have an awful game that some fans were proclaiming he had. The loss to the Bears was a team loss IMO where the offense could've done better but the defense should've been better as well.

The Lance situation is one of the more bizarre things I've seen it's like the team drafted a guy that was raw and needed development and because he didn't just start and play like a 10-year vet he's a bust and completely awful.

I've stressed in the past there is legit concern and criticism to be had with Lance but it's somehow ballooned into if he's not razor sharp and perfect every single play he sucks.

What makes it weirder is fans are ready to name Purdy the next Joe Montana even though he's done things that Lance would get eviscerated for if he did the same thing.

Make no mistake Purdy did play great it's just that I'm not convinced that he'll ever reach a level beyond that and a level that you can win Super Bowls with. Lance to me has the talent to be a better version of Purdy if they are patient enough to develop him and not run him into the ground.

Lance has superior physical talent but whether he has the ability to see the field and process to be a better version than Purdy is a big question mark. Lance is far from that and may very well be a good but nothing better or even as good as Purdy.

Similar to how Lance has superior physical talent over Drew Brees (bigger, faster, stronger) but is nowhere near as good a QB due to Brees' superior field vision, football IQ and processing speed. It takes more than just sheer athleticism to be a top tier QB. Obviously its ideal to combine both, but there just aren't a whole lot of Mahomes' or Josh Allen's running around.

[Pattersonca65]

Not a great endorsement. I get you can never say never for a trade but there could have been a stronger commitment to a player you gave up three firsts for.
https://www.ninersnation.com/2023/3/27/23658666/trey-lance-49ers-john-lynch-trade#comments

[CrimsonCrew]

Posted this in the offseason thread, but it's more appropriate here:

Lots being made of Lynch's comments about the QB situation recently. Basically, he said there would be a three-way competition for QB, and Brock has the inside track. I think it's being a little overblown. Lynch can be more candid than some, but at the end of the day, I think it was basically coach-speak about competition.

Yes, Purdy earned the first crack at the starting gig with his play last year, all else being equal. But...all else is not equal. Purdy is in a brace, recovering from major surgery, and we don't know when he'll be back. So I don't view that part as all that meaningful.

The other aspect is the suggestion that it's an even competition between Lance and Darnold. Again, all else being equal, it should be a competition for every single guy on the roster. But if it's even close on this one, you give the nod to Lance. You don't do it because of his draft status, though that is something that's hard to ignore when you consider the resources we gave up to get the guy.

You do it primarily because we have seen - and seen, and seen - Sam Darnold in live NFL action. 55 NFL starts over five seasons. And it's been really bad. Sure, you can look at the circumstances and explain certain things away. But at the end of the day, unlike Lance, he's had an opportunity to really show what he can do over an extended period of time. And he's consistently disappointed. Lance may also disappoint, but he has nothing like the sample size to show it. For that reason, as said, unless Darnold is CLEARLY superior in practices and pre-season, you have to give Lance the nod.

Plenty of guys play well in practice and poorly in games, and vice versa. Lance needs work in an NFL pocket, making NFL reads while NFL defenders try to get him. That's the biggest single question with him, followed shortly by his accuracy. Purdy showed an ability to make plays under duress this last year. To date, Lance hasn't. Yes, at times he has shown an ability to step out of the pocket, extend a play, move around with his eyes downfield, and make a throw. But he doesn't navigate the pocket very well. If pressure gets through quickly, he doesn't have the quick release to make a play with pressure in his face or the feel to buy himself an extra half-second. For me, that's the thing that will make or break him more than anything. If you can't play in traffic in the NFL, you can't play in the NFL.

[CrimsonCrew]

Shanahan apparently echoed some of what Lynch said yesterday. I'm fine to give Darnold some first-team reps, but it should be a 1/3 to 2/3 split at best IMO. He should start behind Lance and have to earn more playing time. If they're doing a 50-50 split, I've really got to question - again - some of the handling of Lance.

[CrimsonCrew]

Here's a big chunk of the Shanahan interview:

https://www.si.com/nfl/49ers/news/kyle-shanahan-explains-why-brock-purdy-has-surpassed-trey-lance-on-the-49ers-depth-chart

[Pattersonca65]

Shanahan apparently echoed some of what Lynch said yesterday. I'm fine to give Darnold some first-team reps, but it should be a 1/3 to 2/3 split at best IMO. He should start behind Lance and have to earn more playing time. If they're doing a 50-50 split, I've really got to question - again - some of the handling of Lance.

Thr 49ers gave up three first rounders for Lance. The fact that Lynch even acknowledged that the 49ers were willing to field offers and then said the 49ers " like " Lance on the ream right now. That says something for a player they gave up so much for with the expectation of him being the future of the franchise. There has been something off since last offseason with the reports coming out o the organization being disappounted in his development. While some of that might have been overblown, usually when there is a stream coming out there is usually something to it, This is what Martz had to say about Lance. It isn't really surprising given Lance's inexperience. Lance was the rawest and least experience first round QB in the draft. I don'r know what Shanahan and Co were thinking.It was not unreasonable to think Lance was going to need time to develop Shanahan is in a tough situation because the 49ers are in win mode now and can't afford to lose games while Lance figures it out.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/49ers-qb-trey-lance-long-ways-away-starting-mike-martz-believes

[CrimsonCrew]

Shanahan apparently echoed some of what Lynch said yesterday. I'm fine to give Darnold some first-team reps, but it should be a 1/3 to 2/3 split at best IMO. He should start behind Lance and have to earn more playing time. If they're doing a 50-50 split, I've really got to question - again - some of the handling of Lance.

Thr 49ers gave up three first rounders for Lance. The fact that Lynch even acknowledged that the 49ers were willing to field offers and then said the 49ers " like " Lance on the ream right now. That says something for a player they gave up so much for with the expectation of him being the future of the franchise. There has been something off since last offseason with the reports coming out o the organization being disappounted in his development. While some of that might have been overblown, usually when there is a stream coming out there is usually something to it, This is what Martz had to say about Lance. It isn't really surprising given Lance's inexperience. Lance was the rawest and least experience first round QB in the draft. I don'r know what Shanahan and Co were thinking.It was not unreasonable to think Lance was going to need time to develop Shanahan is in a tough situation because the 49ers are in win mode now and can't afford to lose games while Lance figures it out.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/49ers-qb-trey-lance-long-ways-away-starting-mike-martz-believes

Martz rubs me the wrong way with some of this stuff. Some of his comments smack of the stereotypes against black QBs. That's particularly true of his comment that Lance needs to invest more in learning the offense. It's just too close to the "lazy black QB" trope to disregard. Especially when absolutely all accounts are that Lance is an extremely hard worker and film junkie. I don't have any reason to believe that he doesn't know the offense, I think the bigger issue is that he doesn't trust what he sees. He knows where the ball is supposed to go, but he's tentative about delivering it.

Having said that about Martz, a lot of his criticisms are fair. Lance is pretty shaky in a lot of areas right now. The physical tools are there, but he can lock onto his primary target, allowing the defense to close on the football. He hesitates to pull the trigger within the timing of the offense, which pushes him to his second and third read, and often allows pressure to get home. He has the ability to keep plays alive and make some spectacular plays, but he has also taken a lot of sacks and put the ball in harm's way a lot. He'll look defenders off at times, but not consistently. And, of course, he still struggles with fundamentals and accuracy.

For me, the bottom line is that Lance just needs more time. He needs to get more familiar with what open means at the NFL level, and how that looks from the pocket as opposed to on All-22 film. He needs to have confidence in his ability to put the ball in the right spot. He needs to get more experience playing in a messy pocket. He can't do those things without getting on the field.

A lot of things about the Lance pick have mystified me. I still don't believe they needed to go up to three to get him, though we'll never know on that. Once they did go to three, taking him and then handling him as they have is a head-scratcher. The team clearly feels urgency to win now, but they went out and took the least pro-ready QB out there, and they haven't seemed willing to let him work through things on the field. He's had an extremely short leash. Instead of letting him throw it, they have repeatedly used him as a glorified RB.

As said above, Lance isn't doing a great job right now (or when we last saw him) of getting the ball to the first read within the structure of the offense. And I'm sure that drives Shanahan crazy. But what's the expectation that he improves if you don't let him work on it in games? Instead, we've gotten him hurt repeatedly by running him into the teeth of NFL defenses. And some of that is on Lance. He's not good at protecting himself when he's on the hoof. But you're dramatically increasing the odds of an injury when you run him up the middle 7-10 times a game. It's not sustainable. I really hope we give him an opportunity to actually command the game as a passer this offseason, throughout the preseason, and if Purdy isn't back, into the regular season. He needs to be playing at least a full half in each preseason game. There's just no replacement for actual experience.

[CrimsonCrew]

I re-watched JT O'Sullivan's breakdown of Lance's game against Houston as a rookie. It's old, but Lance has really only made one start since. And I think a lot of what JT points out was still visible in the Chicago game. Lance is able to make some really nice plays, but it's often not to the guy Shanahan wants him going to. There's lots of second- and third-read plays, or scramble drills with impressive plays, that are successful, but no doubt piss of Shanahan. I think that's the primary reason Lance has had such a short leash.

Shanahan wants someone to do exactly what he tells them. Lance isn't that guy right now. Granted, Fields wasn't that guy either, and Jones also didn't exactly show he was that guy this past year. Purdy has shown some ability to make the reads and quick throws that the offense calls for, and that's why he's the presumptive starter. But Purdy has so much more experience than Lance. Why draft Lance if you weren't willing to deal with the growing pains?

Anyway, video is here for those that want to take a look.

Watch on YouTube

[wco81]

Well the rumor was that Shanny wanted Matt Jones and others in the org had to talk him out of it.

Jones wasn’t bad as a rookie, not so much his soph Year and Pats may hAve to pursue other options including possibly Lamar.

[CrimsonCrew]

Well the rumor was that Shanny wanted Matt Jones and others in the org had to talk him out of it.

Jones wasn’t bad as a rookie, not so much his soph Year and Pats may hAve to pursue other options including possibly Lamar.

Coming out, Jones looked more like the polished guy who could implement the offense than Lance did. But look, if Shanahan wanted Jones, he should have pounded the table for him and insisted on him. He's the offensive-minded head coach. I find it very hard to believe that Shanahan didn't get the guy he wanted.

Honestly, the biggest issue might have been the early move up to three. They have admitted to trading up the three before they had a firm idea of who they wanted. Well WTF, guys? You'd better have gone over every damn bit of film available and be absolutely certain that the guy you want is worth the #3 pick - and everything you have to give up to get up there - before you pull the trigger. It's possible Shanahan liked Jones the most, but didn't feel he could take a low-upside player with that pick. But if that's the case, then he's a moron for signing off on the trade up.

[Pattersonca65]

Well the rumor was that Shanny wanted Matt Jones and others in the org had to talk him out of it.

Jones wasn’t bad as a rookie, not so much his soph Year and Pats may hAve to pursue other options including possibly Lamar.

Coming out, Jones looked more like the polished guy who could implement the offense than Lance did. But look, if Shanahan wanted Jones, he should have pounded the table for him and insisted on him. He's the offensive-minded head coach. I find it very hard to believe that Shanahan didn't get the guy he wanted.

Honestly, the biggest issue might have been the early move up to three. They have admitted to trading up the three before they had a firm idea of who they wanted. Well WTF, guys? You'd better have gone over every damn bit of film available and be absolutely certain that the guy you want is worth the #3 pick - and everything you have to give up to get up there - before you pull the trigger. It's possible Shanahan liked Jones the most, but didn't feel he could take a low-upside player with that pick. But if that's the case, then he's a moron for signing off on the trade up.

I don't buy that rumor. Shanahan is going to get the QB he wants. I remember reports of them not being that impressed with Jones during his workout day. I was not a fan of the move up myself. Lance to me seemed to much a unknown. I put my trust in Shanahan that they would get it right but looking less certain now. Seems this QB class was hyped up as a strong class. We''ll see in a couple of years but as of now this class may not live up to the predraft hype.

[Pattersonca65]

Shanahan apparently echoed some of what Lynch said yesterday. I'm fine to give Darnold some first-team reps, but it should be a 1/3 to 2/3 split at best IMO. He should start behind Lance and have to earn more playing time. If they're doing a 50-50 split, I've really got to question - again - some of the handling of Lance.

Thr 49ers gave up three first rounders for Lance. The fact that Lynch even acknowledged that the 49ers were willing to field offers and then said the 49ers " like " Lance on the ream right now. That says something for a player they gave up so much for with the expectation of him being the future of the franchise. There has been something off since last offseason with the reports coming out o the organization being disappounted in his development. While some of that might have been overblown, usually when there is a stream coming out there is usually something to it, This is what Martz had to say about Lance. It isn't really surprising given Lance's inexperience. Lance was the rawest and least experience first round QB in the draft. I don'r know what Shanahan and Co were thinking.It was not unreasonable to think Lance was going to need time to develop Shanahan is in a tough situation because the 49ers are in win mode now and can't afford to lose games while Lance figures it out.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/49ers-qb-trey-lance-long-ways-away-starting-mike-martz-believes

Martz rubs me the wrong way with some of this stuff. Some of his comments smack of the stereotypes against black QBs. That's particularly true of his comment that Lance needs to invest more in learning the offense. It's just too close to the "lazy black QB" trope to disregard. Especially when absolutely all accounts are that Lance is an extremely hard worker and film junkie. I don't have any reason to believe that he doesn't know the offense, I think the bigger issue is that he doesn't trust what he sees. He knows where the ball is supposed to go, but he's tentative about delivering it.

Having said that about Martz, a lot of his criticisms are fair. Lance is pretty shaky in a lot of areas right now. The physical tools are there, but he can lock onto his primary target, allowing the defense to close on the football. He hesitates to pull the trigger within the timing of the offense, which pushes him to his second and third read, and often allows pressure to get home. He has the ability to keep plays alive and make some spectacular plays, but he has also taken a lot of sacks and put the ball in harm's way a lot. He'll look defenders off at times, but not consistently. And, of course, he still struggles with fundamentals and accuracy.

For me, the bottom line is that Lance just needs more time. He needs to get more familiar with what open means at the NFL level, and how that looks from the pocket as opposed to on All-22 film. He needs to have confidence in his ability to put the ball in the right spot. He needs to get more experience playing in a messy pocket. He can't do those things without getting on the field.

A lot of things about the Lance pick have mystified me. I still don't believe they needed to go up to three to get him, though we'll never know on that. Once they did go to three, taking him and then handling him as they have is a head-scratcher. The team clearly feels urgency to win now, but they went out and took the least pro-ready QB out there, and they haven't seemed willing to let him work through things on the field. He's had an extremely short leash. Instead of letting him throw it, they have repeatedly used him as a glorified RB.

As said above, Lance isn't doing a great job right now (or when we last saw him) of getting the ball to the first read within the structure of the offense. And I'm sure that drives Shanahan crazy. But what's the expectation that he improves if you don't let him work on it in games? Instead, we've gotten him hurt repeatedly by running him into the teeth of NFL defenses. And some of that is on Lance. He's not good at protecting himself when he's on the hoof. But you're dramatically increasing the odds of an injury when you run him up the middle 7-10 times a game. It's not sustainable. I really hope we give him an opportunity to actually command the game as a passer this offseason, throughout the preseason, and if Purdy isn't back, into the regular season. He needs to be playing at least a full half in each preseason game. There's just no replacement for actual experience.

Haven't really followed anything Martz has done up to this point. He does know how to coach QBs so that is why I was interested in what he had to say. I didn't think that article was too critical. Basically Martz is saying he is behind because of a lack of experience.

[CrimsonCrew]

Well the rumor was that Shanny wanted Matt Jones and others in the org had to talk him out of it.

Jones wasn’t bad as a rookie, not so much his soph Year and Pats may hAve to pursue other options including possibly Lamar.

Coming out, Jones looked more like the polished guy who could implement the offense than Lance did. But look, if Shanahan wanted Jones, he should have pounded the table for him and insisted on him. He's the offensive-minded head coach. I find it very hard to believe that Shanahan didn't get the guy he wanted.

Honestly, the biggest issue might have been the early move up to three. They have admitted to trading up the three before they had a firm idea of who they wanted. Well WTF, guys? You'd better have gone over every damn bit of film available and be absolutely certain that the guy you want is worth the #3 pick - and everything you have to give up to get up there - before you pull the trigger. It's possible Shanahan liked Jones the most, but didn't feel he could take a low-upside player with that pick. But if that's the case, then he's a moron for signing off on the trade up.

I don't buy that rumor. Shanahan is going to get the QB he wants. I remember reports of them not being that impressed with Jones during his workout day. I was not a fan of the move up myself. Lance to me seemed to much a unknown. I put my trust in Shanahan that they would get it right but looking less certain now. Seems this QB class was hyped up as a strong class. We''ll see in a couple of years but as of now this class may not live up to the predraft hype.

Yeah, I've always been extremely skeptical of the Shanahan wanted Jones story line. We were getting that from all of these people who were going crazy before the draft saying that we were going to take Jones. When we didn't, they had to come up with an explanation, and "That's who Shanahan REALLY wanted!" was good cover for their blown predictions. Shanahan is not the sort of guy to defer to others' judgment on this sort of a decision, and I can't see Lynch strong-arming the offensive HC to take a guy he doesn't want at the most important position on the field.

My second paragraph was simply entertaining the theory and providing a plausible explanation for how both could be true (Shanahan preferred Jones but didn't feel he could take him at 3). Definitely not endorsing that view.

[CrimsonCrew]

Haven't really followed anything Martz has done up to this point. He does know how to coach QBs so that is why I was interested in what he had to say. I didn't think that article was too critical. Basically Martz is saying he is behind because of a lack of experience.

I hadn't kept tabs on Martz at all until he absolutely brutalized Lance - and Fields, too - after the first game of the season last year. He was making the rounds after some pretty inflammatory statements, and this newer video is more moderated than the earlier one was. Here's that older video for context:

Watch on YouTube

I get that people take inflammatory positions these days to get buzz, go viral, etc., but I expect more from a guy like Martz. Young QBs struggle week one against elite defenses or on the road in bad conditions. Turns out that Niners' D was awfully good, and Fields did enough to win despite a bad supporting cast. And as I reviewed at length in the Jimmy Garoppolo thread (oddly, I realize now), Lance struggled, but showed some nice things for an unrefined player. It's just silly to basically write these guys off based on that game. Again, just given the history of this sport, when I hear a guy being that critical of a couple black QBs right out the gate, it just makes my hair stand up.

[CrimsonCrew]

As far as Martz's coaching career, I can't help but wonder if he doesn't get more credit than he deserves as a QB whisperer and offensive genius.

His first NFL experience was as QB coach for the LA Rams. He coached Jim Everett for two years, who was an established vet at the time. Everett's numbers were fine (he got injured in the second season they were together), but he was better in '90 before Martz got there, and better after he left the Rams for the Saints in '94.

In '94, Martz had Chris Miller and Chris Chandler, who were adequate. Not much to work with, but he didn't do much with it, either. Martz moved to WR coach after that year.

He was the QBs coach again for the Redskins from '97-'98. He got fine performances out of Gus Frerotte, Trent Green, and Jeff Hostetler, but certainly nothing extraordinary.

He then became head coach of the Rams in '99. We all know how that went, of course. He and Warner took the team to incredible heights. But it's not like he's the guy who found this diamond in the rough and brought Warner aboard. Warner had been on the team. In fact, he was one of the players that the team did not protect in the expansion draft that season. Certainly Martz tapped into his ability, but with those sorts of relationships, it can be hard to say who is bolstering whom. And there's a strong argument that he gave up on Warner too early.

Bulger took over for Warner in 2002 and was pretty up and down. The team see-sawed a bit under Bulger. He came in when Warner was stinking up the joint (I had completely forgotten how badly they started that season, starting 0-5 and never scoring more then 21 in a game) and was a clear improvement. Warner of course went on and played really well for Arizona.

In 2004, Bulger made the pro bowl and the team did well, but he had 22 TDs and 22 INTs and took 37 sacks. They lost in the first round of the playoffs when Bulger threw three INTs and no TDs. IN 2004, his numbers were better (21 TDs, 14 INTs, but 41 sacks), but he went 8-6 and the team was 8-8. They were 19th in the league in points scored that year. IN 2005, Bulger went 2-6 and the team kind of fell apart. Martz was fired. Bulger put up arguably his best year in 2006, after Martz left, and then bottomed out after that while Warner was leading the Cards to the Super Bowl.

Martz became the OC in Detroit in 2006. John Kitna went 3-13. He had a lot of yards (a commonality in Martz offenses), but 21 TDs, 22 INTs, and a whopping 63 sacks. No QB whispering here. In 2007, Kitna was a bit better, going 7-9, but he threw for only 18 TDs, threw 21 INTs, and took 51 sacks. To be fair, Kitna was never a very good QB, but it's not like Martz worked magic with him.

In 2008, Martz joined the Niners, and we all know how that went. JT O'Sullivan and Shaun Hill combined to go 7-9 with 21 TDs, 19 INTs, and 55 sacks. Martz had brought JT in from Detroit and really advocated for him to begin the season as the starter, and he was a trainwreck, going 2-5 before Shaun Hill kind of salvaged things and ended the season on a 5-2 run. Of course, Hill was already on the team and had been pretty good in limited action, so this one really was Martz making an awful call on his guy (granted I love JT's work now).

Martz was out of the league for a year, then went to the Bears in 2010 and 2011. Jay Cutler had been a pretty good QB statistically to that point, but hadn't been a winner. He had a solid first year, going 10-5, but in a stat line that will look familiar, he threw 23 TDs, 16 INTs, and took 52 sacks. He was backed up by Todd Collins, who managed to add no TDs, five INTs, and two sacks. In 2011, Cutler had a rough start before rattling off a bunch of wins prior to an injury. In ten starts, he had 13 TDs, 7 INTs, and 23 sacks. During the five-game win streak, the defense held opponents to 24 points or fewer in every game, and to 20 or fewer in four, though the offense was consistently producing. Again, looking at W-Ls, this was Cutler's best span, but statistically, it was in line with several seasons before and after Martz was there.

Anyway, Martz's history with QBs is fine. Maybe even pretty good. But I don't think it's what people remember. He basically lucked into Warner, cut bait too early, did pretty well but not great with Bulger, and got a good season-and-a-half out of Cutler that was basically in keeping with is play to that point. Generally speaking, Martz was at his best early on with a guy who may very well have made it without Martz if he'd gotten the opportunity elsewhere. He developed a lofty reputation, but wasn't able to sustain it. He certainly knows more about the QB position than I do, but I don't think he's some sort of savant in NFL terms.

[wco81]

Martz was arrogant. He had a loaded roster on the Rams as HC but IIRC, no protection, Warner took a beating one year and he said he's not changing the game plan, they are doing what they are going to do, which was pass first.

That's why he didn't get another HC job IIRC.

[CrimsonCrew]

So I was thinking about this Lance-Purdy thing, because, you know, I'm a crazy person. One thing that I think hasn't gotten quite enough attention is the state of the teams that they were playing with last year. Yes, many people have pointed out the McCaffrey addition, which was absolutely huge for Purdy as an absolutely rock-solid check-down that could result in big plays. Obviously McCaffrey's presence also really opened things up for the rest of the skill players, too.

But another thing that I think played a significant role in Lance's struggles was the OL play. Not that the OL was sensational when Purdy came in, but when Lance started those first two games, we were breaking in three new interior OL who had three combined starts going into the season: a late-round rookie, a second-year player, and a career backup. And those guys struggled early in the year. Chicago's mediocre (generously) defense was able to generate quite a bit of pressure as our guys weren't communicating well and were missing blocks.

Nothing dispositive about this by any means. I'm definitely not saying Lance would have been as good as or better than Purdy if the OL was better, but it is something that's relevant to consider when looking at their respective performances. Purdy was, objectively, in a better position. He came into a team in mid-season form that had just added an impact weapon and was poised to support a competent QB. And all credit to Purdy for being that as a rookie. Dude showed some serious poise. But I just can't help but think that it would be a huge mistake to effectively give up on Lance after four career starts given the investment we sunk into him and Purdy's limited track record and serious injury.

And, of course, we're looking at the same situation this year. Breaking in a new RT, though there's more stability elsewhere. It will be interesting to see how the OL performs early on.

[CrimsonCrew]

Video of Lance throwing again.

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About as small a sample size as you can get, but the release and the spiral both look tight. Tough to say how accurate the ball is, though it looks like the receiver is really extending for it.