Week 3: Packers @ 49ers

[CrimsonCrew]

Man, rough one last night. A lot of thoughts and emotions. First and foremost, I'm pretty disgusted that we lost, and in the fashion that we did. Letting Adams get that open for 25 yards on the first play of a do-or-die series is just plain inexcusable, and we really didn't deserve to win.

This team has some real strengths, but also some glaring weaknesses, and I don't know that we are truly competitive in the division this year, much less in the SB hunt. In terms of weaknesses, the OL - especially the right side - is a mess. The Packers aren't a particularly good pass-rushing team, and they still made our guys look silly repeatedly. It was an especially tough pill to swallow as the team we were playing started two rookies and a second-year player who was making his first start at LT, and held up markedly better.

Our pass rush isn't what we thought it would be. Only Bosa scares anyone one-on-one, and I'm starting to think that all the raves we heard from the offseason are more a reflection of them playing against our OL than actually being good. The depth is solid, but it doesn't really matter if we can't effectively generate pressure. And even when we could generate pressure, it didn't matter because...

...our cornerbacks are garbage. Our pass rush is all but irrelevant if the opposing QB's first read is open literally all the time. How many times did Rodgers actually have to go through a progression? Granted we've had some bad injury luck at the position, but we've also taken it for granted for years. Going into the season relying on Jason Verrett to stay healthy is dicey, and Moseley and Williams also have a fairly lengthy history of missing time.

The there's Garoppolo. Sure, the OL did him no favors, but he's paid like a guy who can compensate for that. He continued to make just totally bone-headed plays. A bad INT on first down last night, another horrible drop by a defensive player on what should have been an easy INT, and then the awful fumble/backward pass late in the fourth. It's unacceptable for a guy with his experience in the league. Frankly, it's embarrassing. Even when he was playing "well," he's constantly putting his receivers in danger. How many hard hits did Samuel and Kittle absorb catching high balls over the middle? That's supposed to be Garoppolo's strength, and he once again barely threw outside the numbers or downfield (except for the INT). Another game with 28 minutes of absolute offensive ineptitude before we finally got something going.

Now, the team showed some poise in not letting this one get out of hand. They did a nice job of coming back from a 17-0 hole and putting themselves in a position to win, but honestly, without a couple very dubious calls and non-calls, I don't think this one would have been as close as it was. And I don't believe that the Packers are really that good of a team.

It's becoming clear that the only chance for this team is to lean into the offense and try to put up some real points. Our strength right now is the receiving threats. Kittle, Samuel, and Aiyuk comprise a pretty potent group - even though we haven't been using Aiyuk as we should. We need to put up 30+ points every week if we're going to be competitive with this defense. And I don't know that Shanahan and Garoppolo can do that. If we lose to the Hawks next week - more to the point, if our offense is still inconsistent - then we need to strongly consider going to Lance and see what he can do for us. At this point, Garoppolo's strengths aren't outweighing his weaknesses, and at least Lance would open up the play book.

Jimmy appears he's right about at his ceiling as a player so I think the offense under him is as good as it's going to get because I think Shanahan has schemed it as well as he can around him. I mean there is a reason they were sniffing around Stafford in the offseason and why they gave up what they did to move to #3 to get a QB.

The offense is only going to expand once they get Lance up and running. Look at how much the Chiefs offense exploded once Mahomes took off and look at the Rams offense this year with Stafford under center. Both teams have what are considered in the tops of the offensive minds in the NFL and both had offenses really take it too another level once they upgraded at QB.

It might not be now or in the next couple of weeks but they need to make the switch to Lance at some point this season even if it's the last couple of games. The only reason I'm not for completely pulling the trigger now is that his mechanics still need refinement and you don't want him to slip back into bad mechanics because the new and improved mechanics aren't quite there in terms of muscle memory.

If we lose to the Hawks, I think it's Trey time. Nothing much to lose at 2-2, down at least two games in the division to the winner of the Cards-Rams game. Might as well see what he can do.

[zman1]

Jimmy is getting way too much heat here. He has flaws but generally he runs the offense well. Got 3 tds second half including the shoulda been game winner. And that with an oline that can't block for pass OR run. Our running backs got less 50 yards total. If the defense had d one its job he would be a hero.

We have bigger problems with both lines. Other teams control the LOS constantly. The other teams are regularly running for 6 or 7 yards on first down. It's a recipe for a bad season and it would not really matter who the qb is. And is our defense coordinator any good?

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[CrimsonCrew]

Jimmy is getting way too much heat here. He has flaws but generally he runs the offense well. Got 3 tds second half including the shoulda been game winner. And that with an oline that can't block for pass OR run. Our running backs got less 50 yards total. If the defense had d one its job he would be a hero.

We have bigger problems with both lines. Other teams control the LOS constantly. The other teams are regularly running for 6 or 7 yards on first down. It's a recipe for a bad season and it would not really matter who the qb is. And is our defense coordinator any good?

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

Maiocco had a similar bit about how perception of Garoppolo swung dramatically based on things that happened when he wasn't on the field. That may be true, but I don't think the perception should change based on that, and mine didn't. Garoppolo had his moments in this one. He put together several strong drives, and gave us a chance to win. But he plays in an extremely QB-friendly system that calls on his skill players to do most of the heavy lifting, and he doesn't exactly kill it within that system.

Once again, he came out of the gate ice cold and was one of the primary reasons we fell behind 17-0 to begin with. He repeatedly missed relatively easy throws early, nearly threw a very bad INT, then did throw a pretty bad INT on the first play of a drive (admittedly a good defensive play on what was actually an accurate deep ball, but Garoppolo needs to see the defender). And even if pressure arrived almost immediately, he still had a potentially back-breaking fumble late in the game.

This is a GB defense that let NO hang 38 on them in the opener. Detroit put up 17 in a half before they shut them down in the second half. It's not a strong unit.

And sure, as said, there are PLENTY of units that deserve criticism in this one. But QB is one of them, and he's the highest paid guy on the team, so he deserves to shoulder the lion's share of the blame.

[zman1]

Jimmy is getting way too much heat here. He has flaws but generally he runs the offense well. Got 3 tds second half including the shoulda been game winner. And that with an oline that can't block for pass OR run. Our running backs got less 50 yards total. If the defense had d one its job he would be a hero.

We have bigger problems with both lines. Other teams control the LOS constantly. The other teams are regularly running for 6 or 7 yards on first down. It's a recipe for a bad season and it would not really matter who the qb is. And is our defense coordinator any good?

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

Maiocco had a similar bit about how perception of Garoppolo swung dramatically based on things that happened when he wasn't on the field. That may be true, but I don't think the perception should change based on that, and mine didn't. Garoppolo had his moments in this one. He put together several strong drives, and gave us a chance to win. But he plays in an extremely QB-friendly system that calls on his skill players to do most of the heavy lifting, and he doesn't exactly kill it within that system.

Once again, he came out of the gate ice cold and was one of the primary reasons we fell behind 17-0 to begin with. He repeatedly missed relatively easy throws early, nearly threw a very bad INT, then did throw a pretty bad INT on the first play of a drive (admittedly a good defensive play on what was actually an accurate deep ball, but Garoppolo needs to see the defender). And even if pressure arrived almost immediately, he still had a potentially back-breaking fumble late in the game.

This is a GB defense that let NO hang 38 on them in the opener. Detroit put up 17 in a half before they shut them down in the second half. It's not a strong unit.

And sure, as said, there are PLENTY of units that deserve criticism in this one. But QB is one of them, and he's the highest paid guy on the team, so he deserves to shoulder the lion's share of the blame.

Agree with most of that. But the first int I would chalk up to a great defensive play. Jimmy is not great but absolutely no qb looks good with an online that can't pass block or run block. I still put this loss way more on the line and the defense.

Any thoughts on our DC? Defense is making almost no impact plays.

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[Samurai]

Man, rough one last night. A lot of thoughts and emotions. First and foremost, I'm pretty disgusted that we lost, and in the fashion that we did. Letting Adams get that open for 25 yards on the first play of a do-or-die series is just plain inexcusable, and we really didn't deserve to win.

This team has some real strengths, but also some glaring weaknesses, and I don't know that we are truly competitive in the division this year, much less in the SB hunt. In terms of weaknesses, the OL - especially the right side - is a mess. The Packers aren't a particularly good pass-rushing team, and they still made our guys look silly repeatedly. It was an especially tough pill to swallow as the team we were playing started two rookies and a second-year player who was making his first start at LT, and held up markedly better.

Our pass rush isn't what we thought it would be. Only Bosa scares anyone one-on-one, and I'm starting to think that all the raves we heard from the offseason are more a reflection of them playing against our OL than actually being good. The depth is solid, but it doesn't really matter if we can't effectively generate pressure. And even when we could generate pressure, it didn't matter because...

...our cornerbacks are garbage. Our pass rush is all but irrelevant if the opposing QB's first read is open literally all the time. How many times did Rodgers actually have to go through a progression? Granted we've had some bad injury luck at the position, but we've also taken it for granted for years. Going into the season relying on Jason Verrett to stay healthy is dicey, and Moseley and Williams also have a fairly lengthy history of missing time.

The there's Garoppolo. Sure, the OL did him no favors, but he's paid like a guy who can compensate for that. He continued to make just totally bone-headed plays. A bad INT on first down last night, another horrible drop by a defensive player on what should have been an easy INT, and then the awful fumble/backward pass late in the fourth. It's unacceptable for a guy with his experience in the league. Frankly, it's embarrassing. Even when he was playing "well," he's constantly putting his receivers in danger. How many hard hits did Samuel and Kittle absorb catching high balls over the middle? That's supposed to be Garoppolo's strength, and he once again barely threw outside the numbers or downfield (except for the INT). Another game with 28 minutes of absolute offensive ineptitude before we finally got something going.

Now, the team showed some poise in not letting this one get out of hand. They did a nice job of coming back from a 17-0 hole and putting themselves in a position to win, but honestly, without a couple very dubious calls and non-calls, I don't think this one would have been as close as it was. And I don't believe that the Packers are really that good of a team.

It's becoming clear that the only chance for this team is to lean into the offense and try to put up some real points. Our strength right now is the receiving threats. Kittle, Samuel, and Aiyuk comprise a pretty potent group - even though we haven't been using Aiyuk as we should. We need to put up 30+ points every week if we're going to be competitive with this defense. And I don't know that Shanahan and Garoppolo can do that. If we lose to the Hawks next week - more to the point, if our offense is still inconsistent - then we need to strongly consider going to Lance and see what he can do for us. At this point, Garoppolo's strengths aren't outweighing his weaknesses, and at least Lance would open up the play book.

Jimmy appears he's right about at his ceiling as a player so I think the offense under him is as good as it's going to get because I think Shanahan has schemed it as well as he can around him. I mean there is a reason they were sniffing around Stafford in the offseason and why they gave up what they did to move to #3 to get a QB.

The offense is only going to expand once they get Lance up and running. Look at how much the Chiefs offense exploded once Mahomes took off and look at the Rams offense this year with Stafford under center. Both teams have what are considered in the tops of the offensive minds in the NFL and both had offenses really take it too another level once they upgraded at QB.

It might not be now or in the next couple of weeks but they need to make the switch to Lance at some point this season even if it's the last couple of games. The only reason I'm not for completely pulling the trigger now is that his mechanics still need refinement and you don't want him to slip back into bad mechanics because the new and improved mechanics aren't quite there in terms of muscle memory.

If we lose to the Hawks, I think it's Trey time. Nothing much to lose at 2-2, down at least two games in the division to the winner of the Cards-Rams game. Might as well see what he can do.

Do we need to wait until we lose to the Hawks first? If the game starts out as "same old, same old" with a leaky defense and poor O-line, we know that Jimmy isn't going to be able to overcome those deficiencies. The only chance is to hope you get lucky and Lance breaks off a big run or hits a deep pass to change the momentum. Probably not likely but at least he has the potential to do that; Jimmy does not. Depending on how we look out the gate, I think we may need to see what Lance can do during the Seattle game rather than waiting until we lose first. If we were playing in the NFC East, then sure, might as well wait until Seattle beats us before making the effort. But in the NFC West, we will be staring at the rear ends of LA, Seattle and Arizona and it may be too late to catch them if we wait.

[CrimsonCrew]

Jimmy is getting way too much heat here. He has flaws but generally he runs the offense well. Got 3 tds second half including the shoulda been game winner. And that with an oline that can't block for pass OR run. Our running backs got less 50 yards total. If the defense had d one its job he would be a hero.

We have bigger problems with both lines. Other teams control the LOS constantly. The other teams are regularly running for 6 or 7 yards on first down. It's a recipe for a bad season and it would not really matter who the qb is. And is our defense coordinator any good?

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

Maiocco had a similar bit about how perception of Garoppolo swung dramatically based on things that happened when he wasn't on the field. That may be true, but I don't think the perception should change based on that, and mine didn't. Garoppolo had his moments in this one. He put together several strong drives, and gave us a chance to win. But he plays in an extremely QB-friendly system that calls on his skill players to do most of the heavy lifting, and he doesn't exactly kill it within that system.

Once again, he came out of the gate ice cold and was one of the primary reasons we fell behind 17-0 to begin with. He repeatedly missed relatively easy throws early, nearly threw a very bad INT, then did throw a pretty bad INT on the first play of a drive (admittedly a good defensive play on what was actually an accurate deep ball, but Garoppolo needs to see the defender). And even if pressure arrived almost immediately, he still had a potentially back-breaking fumble late in the game.

This is a GB defense that let NO hang 38 on them in the opener. Detroit put up 17 in a half before they shut them down in the second half. It's not a strong unit.

And sure, as said, there are PLENTY of units that deserve criticism in this one. But QB is one of them, and he's the highest paid guy on the team, so he deserves to shoulder the lion's share of the blame.

Agree with most of that. But the first int I would chalk up to a great defensive play. Jimmy is not great but absolutely no qb looks good with an online that can't pass block or run block. I still put this loss way more on the line and the defense.

Any thoughts on our DC? Defense is making almost no impact plays.

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No doubt the OL struggled a lot in this one. But again, Jimmy is paid like a guy who can rise above that.

I was really unhappy with the defensive playcalling late in the game. The inability to stop literally the one thing you knew the offense would try to do is pretty inexcusable in my view. Overall, it's hard for me to really assess Ryans at this point. Our CBs are so bad, and our DL haven't been the difference-makers we hoped they would be. Ebukam and Ford have been invisible the past two games. Really no one other than Bosa is making a consistent impact.

I'm willing to cut Ryans a little slack as he's new to the position and still finding his groove with in-game coordinating, but he's on a relatively short leash. He's got to find a way to compensate for our weaknesses, and he certainly hasn't done it to date.

[Samurai]

Lombardi is going in on the failure to make the Packers field the kickoff in the last possession.

Also Alex Mack is to blame for a lot of problems, poor blocking and poor snaps in key situations.

I don't know if Mack missed a block on the play where Jimmy fumbled in the 4th quarter.

Alex Mack sucked last night. He got destroyed on Sermon's first run and we lost 3 yards because of it.

Mack certainly had his worst game of the young season so far and he needs to improve. But in terms of pass protection, here is the breakdown: Brunskill allowed 4 pressures, Mack, Tomlinsen and Williams allowed 2 each, and McGlinchey allowed 1. Just from eyeballing some of the highlights, it looked like Brunskill was the one struggling in both run and pass protection more than Mack. And since Mack didn't look good, it is troubling that Brunskill was even worse. Brunskill may be proving that he is more valuable as a versatile insurance policy on the bench that you can plug into any O-line position in an emergency but not someone you want to count on as a starter.

[Pattersonca65]

Jimmy is certainly good enough to beat the bad teams. But with our o-line looking very suspect and our top RB's out, he isn't bringing enough to the table to put the team on his shoulders and beat good teams, let alone great teams. Not saying a rookie like Lance can do that but he at least gives you a puncher's chance to land that big knockout punch, whether it be with a long run or one deep pass, to take down an overall stronger fighter.

And he can make some killer rookie mistakes. he showed that during the preseason. And all the other rookies are struggling. Trey has far less experience than any of them. Jimmy G is limited in what he can do and limits the offense but he still does enough to win. Anyone who thinks Lance can't do any worse are kidding themselves. I also don't think Shanahan can just make it easy for Lance. The Oline is pass blocking worse than I hoped. And that is going to hurt Lance. If Shanahan decides to start Lance I will fully support it. I just don't think it is going to be as smooth as some fans think it will be.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/nfl-rookie-qb-rankings-trey-lance-rises-others-struggle

[Samurai]

Jimmy is certainly good enough to beat the bad teams. But with our o-line looking very suspect and our top RB's out, he isn't bringing enough to the table to put the team on his shoulders and beat good teams, let alone great teams. Not saying a rookie like Lance can do that but he at least gives you a puncher's chance to land that big knockout punch, whether it be with a long run or one deep pass, to take down an overall stronger fighter.

And he can make some killer rookie mistakes. he showed that during the preseason. And all the other rookies are struggling. Trey has far less experience than any of them. Jimmy G is limited in what he can do and limits the offense but he still does enough to win. Anyone who thinks Lance can't do any worse are kidding themselves. I also don't think Shanahan can just make it easy for Lance. The Oline is pass blocking worse than I hoped. And that is going to hurt Lance. If Shanahan decides to start Lance I will fully support it. I just don't think it is going to be as smooth as some fans think it will be.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/nfl-rookie-qb-rankings-trey-lance-rises-others-struggle

In my post, I never stated nor implied that it would be "smooth" with Lance at QB. My point is that I don't think we can beat the top teams with Jimmy as our QB given the holes we have on defense and our O-line. Probably can't win with Lance either but I don't see how it would be worse - a loss is still a loss. I look at it this way: if you and I get into a fight and I am the superior overall fighter, chances are that you will lose. But if you have the power to knock me out, then you at least have a chance of landing that one big punch that turns it in your favor. Even with that power, you may well still lose but at least you have a chance. Jimmy doesn't have that knockout punch power. Without it, he's not going to "win on points" against a superior fighter. Lance at least has that knockout power potential, which gives us a chance. A chance is better than no chance.

[CrimsonCrew]

Jimmy is certainly good enough to beat the bad teams. But with our o-line looking very suspect and our top RB's out, he isn't bringing enough to the table to put the team on his shoulders and beat good teams, let alone great teams. Not saying a rookie like Lance can do that but he at least gives you a puncher's chance to land that big knockout punch, whether it be with a long run or one deep pass, to take down an overall stronger fighter.

And he can make some killer rookie mistakes. he showed that during the preseason. And all the other rookies are struggling. Trey has far less experience than any of them. Jimmy G is limited in what he can do and limits the offense but he still does enough to win. Anyone who thinks Lance can't do any worse are kidding themselves. I also don't think Shanahan can just make it easy for Lance. The Oline is pass blocking worse than I hoped. And that is going to hurt Lance. If Shanahan decides to start Lance I will fully support it. I just don't think it is going to be as smooth as some fans think it will be.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/nfl-rookie-qb-rankings-trey-lance-rises-others-struggle

There's plenty of room for Trey to be worse than Jimmy. Despite all the flak Jimmy gets - and I'm right up there in sending it his way - he's still a decent NFL starter. If he was making $12-15 million a year, I'd consider keeping him. But we can't pay him $25 million and remain competitive.

The argument for going to Lance is that, if he's going to have growing pains, let him get them out of the way in this season when we probably aren't in legit contention. That way, he can start the season strong next year. If Garoppolo can steer us to a win next week, then he keeps the job. I'd say as long as we're above .500, he's the guy. But if we fall below that, especially in a division with at least two of the better teams in the league, we're not going the distance anyway. At least not under Garoppolo. So we might as well see what the rookie can do, and either he provides a spark and somehow gets us into the playoffs, or he gets valuable experience and comes in next year ready to go.

There is, of course, the potential downside of ruining him, a la Alex Smith's early career. But I'm not as worried about that with Lance as with a guy like Smith. The situation around Lance is so much better in terms of coaching and supporting cast, and he's physically gifted enough to make at least some things happen even if his OL is leaky and his defense is subpar.

[Pattersonca65]

Jimmy is certainly good enough to beat the bad teams. But with our o-line looking very suspect and our top RB's out, he isn't bringing enough to the table to put the team on his shoulders and beat good teams, let alone great teams. Not saying a rookie like Lance can do that but he at least gives you a puncher's chance to land that big knockout punch, whether it be with a long run or one deep pass, to take down an overall stronger fighter.

And he can make some killer rookie mistakes. he showed that during the preseason. And all the other rookies are struggling. Trey has far less experience than any of them. Jimmy G is limited in what he can do and limits the offense but he still does enough to win. Anyone who thinks Lance can't do any worse are kidding themselves. I also don't think Shanahan can just make it easy for Lance. The Oline is pass blocking worse than I hoped. And that is going to hurt Lance. If Shanahan decides to start Lance I will fully support it. I just don't think it is going to be as smooth as some fans think it will be.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/nfl-rookie-qb-rankings-trey-lance-rises-others-struggle

There's plenty of room for Trey to be worse than Jimmy. Despite all the flak Jimmy gets - and I'm right up there in sending it his way - he's still a decent NFL starter. If he was making $12-15 million a year, I'd consider keeping him. But we can't pay him $25 million and remain competitive.

The argument for going to Lance is that, if he's going to have growing pains, let him get them out of the way in this season when we probably aren't in legit contention. That way, he can start the season strong next year. If Garoppolo can steer us to a win next week, then he keeps the job. I'd say as long as we're above .500, he's the guy. But if we fall below that, especially in a division with at least two of the better teams in the league, we're not going the distance anyway. At least not under Garoppolo. So we might as well see what the rookie can do, and either he provides a spark and somehow gets us into the playoffs, or he gets valuable experience and comes in next year ready to go.

There is, of course, the potential downside of ruining him, a la Alex Smith's early career. But I'm not as worried about that with Lance as with a guy like Smith. The situation around Lance is so much better in terms of coaching and supporting cast, and he's physically gifted enough to make at least some things happen even if his OL is leaky and his defense is subpar.

We aren't out of contention yet. But if we are out of it then that would change things as long as Lance doesn't get ruined by it. That is going to be Shanahan's call.

[Pattersonca65]

Jimmy is certainly good enough to beat the bad teams. But with our o-line looking very suspect and our top RB's out, he isn't bringing enough to the table to put the team on his shoulders and beat good teams, let alone great teams. Not saying a rookie like Lance can do that but he at least gives you a puncher's chance to land that big knockout punch, whether it be with a long run or one deep pass, to take down an overall stronger fighter.

And he can make some killer rookie mistakes. he showed that during the preseason. And all the other rookies are struggling. Trey has far less experience than any of them. Jimmy G is limited in what he can do and limits the offense but he still does enough to win. Anyone who thinks Lance can't do any worse are kidding themselves. I also don't think Shanahan can just make it easy for Lance. The Oline is pass blocking worse than I hoped. And that is going to hurt Lance. If Shanahan decides to start Lance I will fully support it. I just don't think it is going to be as smooth as some fans think it will be.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/nfl-rookie-qb-rankings-trey-lance-rises-others-struggle

In my post, I never stated nor implied that it would be "smooth" with Lance at QB. My point is that I don't think we can beat the top teams with Jimmy as our QB given the holes we have on defense and our O-line. Probably can't win with Lance either but I don't see how it would be worse - a loss is still a loss. I look at it this way: if you and I get into a fight and I am the superior overall fighter, chances are that you will lose. But if you have the power to knock me out, then you at least have a chance of landing that one big punch that turns it in your favor. Even with that power, you may well still lose but at least you have a chance. Jimmy doesn't have that knockout punch power. Without it, he's not going to "win on points" against a superior fighter. Lance at least has that knockout power potential, which gives us a chance. A chance is better than no chance.

Sorry, it wasn't really directed at you. It is a segment of the 49ers fan base that keeps repeating that. The defense lost the game in the end. Should have been 3-0. Lance does have big play potential one hand but also has the potential the make the typical rookie mistakes from inexperience that can kill games.

[thesack12]

Jimmy is certainly good enough to beat the bad teams. But with our o-line looking very suspect and our top RB's out, he isn't bringing enough to the table to put the team on his shoulders and beat good teams, let alone great teams. Not saying a rookie like Lance can do that but he at least gives you a puncher's chance to land that big knockout punch, whether it be with a long run or one deep pass, to take down an overall stronger fighter.

And he can make some killer rookie mistakes. he showed that during the preseason. And all the other rookies are struggling. Trey has far less experience than any of them. Jimmy G is limited in what he can do and limits the offense but he still does enough to win. Anyone who thinks Lance can't do any worse are kidding themselves. I also don't think Shanahan can just make it easy for Lance. The Oline is pass blocking worse than I hoped. And that is going to hurt Lance. If Shanahan decides to start Lance I will fully support it. I just don't think it is going to be as smooth as some fans think it will be.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/nfl-rookie-qb-rankings-trey-lance-rises-others-struggle

There's plenty of room for Trey to be worse than Jimmy. Despite all the flak Jimmy gets - and I'm right up there in sending it his way - he's still a decent NFL starter. If he was making $12-15 million a year, I'd consider keeping him. But we can't pay him $25 million and remain competitive.

The argument for going to Lance is that, if he's going to have growing pains, let him get them out of the way in this season when we probably aren't in legit contention. That way, he can start the season strong next year. If Garoppolo can steer us to a win next week, then he keeps the job. I'd say as long as we're above .500, he's the guy. But if we fall below that, especially in a division with at least two of the better teams in the league, we're not going the distance anyway. At least not under Garoppolo. So we might as well see what the rookie can do, and either he provides a spark and somehow gets us into the playoffs, or he gets valuable experience and comes in next year ready to go.

There is, of course, the potential downside of ruining him, a la Alex Smith's early career. But I'm not as worried about that with Lance as with a guy like Smith. The situation around Lance is so much better in terms of coaching and supporting cast, and he's physically gifted enough to make at least some things happen even if his OL is leaky and his defense is subpar.

I think you might want to look into what starting QB's actually cost these days.

Garoppolo (age 29) is the 12th highest paid QB @ $27.5 mil/season.

There are only 7 veteran starters (guys not on rookie contracts) that make less than Jimmy. 1 is 44 year old Tom Brady, 1 is 39 year old Roethlisberger, 1 is 38 year old Ryan Fitzpatrick, 1 is Teddy Bridgewater who just got ran out of Carolina in favor Sam Darnold, and 1 is Andy Dalton who was signed as 100% a bridge starter that might last 1/2 a season. Which only leaves Stafford ($27 mil/season) and Carr ($25 mil/season).

If we are going solely on salary cost being the reason why a player is required to overcome the deficiencies of their teammates' poor play, Arik Armstead is public enemy #1. Dude is the 14th highest DLineman (25th highest paid defender at any position) @ $17 mil/season. For that kind of money the 49ers have reaped the rich rewards of 4 tackles (2 solo) and 2 QB pressures (1 sack) through 3 games.

[thesack12]

Jimmy is certainly good enough to beat the bad teams. But with our o-line looking very suspect and our top RB's out, he isn't bringing enough to the table to put the team on his shoulders and beat good teams, let alone great teams. Not saying a rookie like Lance can do that but he at least gives you a puncher's chance to land that big knockout punch, whether it be with a long run or one deep pass, to take down an overall stronger fighter.

And he can make some killer rookie mistakes. he showed that during the preseason. And all the other rookies are struggling. Trey has far less experience than any of them. Jimmy G is limited in what he can do and limits the offense but he still does enough to win. Anyone who thinks Lance can't do any worse are kidding themselves. I also don't think Shanahan can just make it easy for Lance. The Oline is pass blocking worse than I hoped. And that is going to hurt Lance. If Shanahan decides to start Lance I will fully support it. I just don't think it is going to be as smooth as some fans think it will be.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/nfl-rookie-qb-rankings-trey-lance-rises-others-struggle

Yeah, I don't think people are legitimately taking into consideration just how much of a meteoric leap going from FCS college football to the NFL is. Let alone trying to do that after pretty much being idle for a full season. While Lance did play 1 game, he wasn't even allowed to formally practice the vast majority of that year.

This year's rookie QB class are all struggling MIGHTILY, and all those other guys were highly decorated college players from big time programs. All those other guys are vastly more experienced and polished than Trey Lance is.

With Justin Fields specifically, he had a horrific game last Sunday and neither his coach's or O-line helped him like at all. Still where was his elusiveness being able to evade pressure and pick up yards with his legs? Where was his his ability to make plays off script when the play broke down? He didn't show any of that, because playing QB in the NFL is damn difficult. He has yet to be able to adjust.

On a 2-1 team, where the current QB led a drive to take the lead with 37 seconds remaining in the 1 game they did lose, to say that that team needs a QB change for the very raw under experienced rookie, is baffling. It seems like those takes are mostly based out of shear hate for Garoppolo.

This is a 17 game season, and we now have an extra wild card available, yet some choose to believe the season is almost already lost.

Its inevitable that Trey Lance time is coming, and when that time comes I'll be all aboard the Trey train. However, trying to force that to happen sooner, most likely isn't going to help anybody in the equation.

[CrimsonCrew]

And he can make some killer rookie mistakes. he showed that during the preseason. And all the other rookies are struggling. Trey has far less experience than any of them. Jimmy G is limited in what he can do and limits the offense but he still does enough to win. Anyone who thinks Lance can't do any worse are kidding themselves. I also don't think Shanahan can just make it easy for Lance. The Oline is pass blocking worse than I hoped. And that is going to hurt Lance. If Shanahan decides to start Lance I will fully support it. I just don't think it is going to be as smooth as some fans think it will be.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/nfl-rookie-qb-rankings-trey-lance-rises-others-struggle

In my post, I never stated nor implied that it would be "smooth" with Lance at QB. My point is that I don't think we can beat the top teams with Jimmy as our QB given the holes we have on defense and our O-line. Probably can't win with Lance either but I don't see how it would be worse - a loss is still a loss. I look at it this way: if you and I get into a fight and I am the superior overall fighter, chances are that you will lose. But if you have the power to knock me out, then you at least have a chance of landing that one big punch that turns it in your favor. Even with that power, you may well still lose but at least you have a chance. Jimmy doesn't have that knockout punch power. Without it, he's not going to "win on points" against a superior fighter. Lance at least has that knockout power potential, which gives us a chance. A chance is better than no chance.

Sorry, it wasn't really directed at you. It is a segment of the 49ers fan base that keeps repeating that. The defense lost the game in the end. Should have been 3-0. Lance does have big play potential one hand but also has the potential the make the typical rookie mistakes from inexperience that can kill games.

Sure, but what if we had, you know, scored in the first 29 minutes of the game? If the offense had executed sooner, we wouldn't have been in a position for the D to blow it.

[CrimsonCrew]

And he can make some killer rookie mistakes. he showed that during the preseason. And all the other rookies are struggling. Trey has far less experience than any of them. Jimmy G is limited in what he can do and limits the offense but he still does enough to win. Anyone who thinks Lance can't do any worse are kidding themselves. I also don't think Shanahan can just make it easy for Lance. The Oline is pass blocking worse than I hoped. And that is going to hurt Lance. If Shanahan decides to start Lance I will fully support it. I just don't think it is going to be as smooth as some fans think it will be.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/nfl-rookie-qb-rankings-trey-lance-rises-others-struggle

There's plenty of room for Trey to be worse than Jimmy. Despite all the flak Jimmy gets - and I'm right up there in sending it his way - he's still a decent NFL starter. If he was making $12-15 million a year, I'd consider keeping him. But we can't pay him $25 million and remain competitive.

The argument for going to Lance is that, if he's going to have growing pains, let him get them out of the way in this season when we probably aren't in legit contention. That way, he can start the season strong next year. If Garoppolo can steer us to a win next week, then he keeps the job. I'd say as long as we're above .500, he's the guy. But if we fall below that, especially in a division with at least two of the better teams in the league, we're not going the distance anyway. At least not under Garoppolo. So we might as well see what the rookie can do, and either he provides a spark and somehow gets us into the playoffs, or he gets valuable experience and comes in next year ready to go.

There is, of course, the potential downside of ruining him, a la Alex Smith's early career. But I'm not as worried about that with Lance as with a guy like Smith. The situation around Lance is so much better in terms of coaching and supporting cast, and he's physically gifted enough to make at least some things happen even if his OL is leaky and his defense is subpar.

I think you might want to look into what starting QB's actually cost these days.

Garoppolo (age 29) is the 12th highest paid QB @ $27.5 mil/season.

There are only 7 veteran starters (guys not on rookie contracts) that make less than Jimmy. 1 is 44 year old Tom Brady, 1 is 39 year old Roethlisberger, 1 is 38 year old Ryan Fitzpatrick, 1 is Teddy Bridgewater who just got ran out of Carolina in favor Sam Darnold, and 1 is Andy Dalton who was signed as 100% a bridge starter that might last 1/2 a season. Which only leaves Stafford ($27 mil/season) and Carr ($25 mil/season).

If we are going solely on salary cost being the reason why a player is required to overcome the deficiencies of their teammates' poor play, Arik Armstead is public enemy #1. Dude is the 14th highest DLineman (25th highest paid defender at any position) @ $17 mil/season. For that kind of money the 49ers have reaped the rich rewards of 4 tackles (2 solo) and 2 QB pressures (1 sack) through 3 games.

Contracts are a product of when they're signed, and Garoppolo is in the fourth year of his. But if the argument is that teams are also overpaying for Jared Goff and Matt Ryan, I think it's a weak one.

I don't like - and have never liked - the Armstead contract. I'm on record long ago bemoaning the lavish FA contracts this FO shelled out to mediocre (or worse) talents that ultimately prevented us from keeping Buckner. And Armstead deserves plenty of heat for having minimal impact as a pass rusher. But a QB can affect the game in a way that a DL can't, even an elite one. Literally every play (at least prior to total garbage time), a QB has the opportunity to swing a game. It's a far more important position, and with that come higher expectations.

[CrimsonCrew]

Jimmy is certainly good enough to beat the bad teams. But with our o-line looking very suspect and our top RB's out, he isn't bringing enough to the table to put the team on his shoulders and beat good teams, let alone great teams. Not saying a rookie like Lance can do that but he at least gives you a puncher's chance to land that big knockout punch, whether it be with a long run or one deep pass, to take down an overall stronger fighter.

And he can make some killer rookie mistakes. he showed that during the preseason. And all the other rookies are struggling. Trey has far less experience than any of them. Jimmy G is limited in what he can do and limits the offense but he still does enough to win. Anyone who thinks Lance can't do any worse are kidding themselves. I also don't think Shanahan can just make it easy for Lance. The Oline is pass blocking worse than I hoped. And that is going to hurt Lance. If Shanahan decides to start Lance I will fully support it. I just don't think it is going to be as smooth as some fans think it will be.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/nfl-rookie-qb-rankings-trey-lance-rises-others-struggle

Yeah, I don't think people are legitimately taking into consideration just how much of a meteoric leap going from FCS college football to the NFL is. Let alone trying to do that after pretty much being idle for a full season. While Lance did play 1 game, he wasn't even allowed to formally practice the vast majority of that year.

This year's rookie QB class are all struggling MIGHTILY, and all those other guys were highly decorated college players from big time programs. All those other guys are vastly more experienced and polished than Trey Lance is.

With Justin Fields specifically, he had a horrific game last Sunday and neither his coach's or O-line helped him like at all. Still where was his elusiveness being able to evade pressure and pick up yards with his legs? Where was his his ability to make plays off script when the play broke down? He didn't show any of that, because playing QB in the NFL is damn difficult. He has yet to be able to adjust.

On a 2-1 team, where the current QB led a drive to take the lead with 37 seconds remaining in the 1 game they did lose, to say that that team needs a QB change for the very raw under experienced rookie, is baffling. It seems like those takes are mostly based out of shear hate for Garoppolo.

This is a 17 game season, and we now have an extra wild card available, yet some choose to believe the season is almost already lost.

Its inevitable that Trey Lance time is coming, and when that time comes I'll be all aboard the Trey train. However, trying to force that to happen sooner, most likely isn't going to help anybody in the equation.

I'm not advocating for a knee-jerk reaction. But I'm also a pragmatist. The Rams just dominated the SB champs. The Cards might have the best offense in the league. And we have shortcomings at important positions that have no realistic chance of improving dramatically in the near future. If we lose next week, or the next two weeks to drop to 2-3 (at which point we could very realistically be three games behind the division leader), I think we've got to consider getting the rookie some experience so we can be competitive next year instead of breaking in an inexperienced passer then.

[thesack12]

In my post, I never stated nor implied that it would be "smooth" with Lance at QB. My point is that I don't think we can beat the top teams with Jimmy as our QB given the holes we have on defense and our O-line. Probably can't win with Lance either but I don't see how it would be worse - a loss is still a loss. I look at it this way: if you and I get into a fight and I am the superior overall fighter, chances are that you will lose. But if you have the power to knock me out, then you at least have a chance of landing that one big punch that turns it in your favor. Even with that power, you may well still lose but at least you have a chance. Jimmy doesn't have that knockout punch power. Without it, he's not going to "win on points" against a superior fighter. Lance at least has that knockout power potential, which gives us a chance. A chance is better than no chance.

Sorry, it wasn't really directed at you. It is a segment of the 49ers fan base that keeps repeating that. The defense lost the game in the end. Should have been 3-0. Lance does have big play potential one hand but also has the potential the make the typical rookie mistakes from inexperience that can kill games.

Sure, but what if we had, you know, scored in the first 29 minutes of the game? If the offense had executed sooner, we wouldn't have been in a position for the D to blow it.

Well maybe if the running game could have mustered up something better than the 7 rushes for 14 yards in the 1st half, the offense might have been able to get into a little better rhythm.

You know what happened in the 2 minute drill before halftime (running game not being used) the passing offense scored a TD just before halftime.

Exact same situation in the 1st half of the Eagles game. In the 1st half the Running game generated a massive 4 total yards on 7 carries, up until the 2 minute drill before halftime. The last drive before the half Jimmy and the passing offense went 97 yards for a TD.

Late in the 4th quarter against the Packers, again in the 2 minute drill, Jimmy and the passing offense drive 75 yards for a go ahead TD inside the final minute of the game.

Seems to me like Kyle needs to lean on the passing game more.

[thesack12]

There's plenty of room for Trey to be worse than Jimmy. Despite all the flak Jimmy gets - and I'm right up there in sending it his way - he's still a decent NFL starter. If he was making $12-15 million a year, I'd consider keeping him. But we can't pay him $25 million and remain competitive.

The argument for going to Lance is that, if he's going to have growing pains, let him get them out of the way in this season when we probably aren't in legit contention. That way, he can start the season strong next year. If Garoppolo can steer us to a win next week, then he keeps the job. I'd say as long as we're above .500, he's the guy. But if we fall below that, especially in a division with at least two of the better teams in the league, we're not going the distance anyway. At least not under Garoppolo. So we might as well see what the rookie can do, and either he provides a spark and somehow gets us into the playoffs, or he gets valuable experience and comes in next year ready to go.

There is, of course, the potential downside of ruining him, a la Alex Smith's early career. But I'm not as worried about that with Lance as with a guy like Smith. The situation around Lance is so much better in terms of coaching and supporting cast, and he's physically gifted enough to make at least some things happen even if his OL is leaky and his defense is subpar.

I think you might want to look into what starting QB's actually cost these days.

Garoppolo (age 29) is the 12th highest paid QB @ $27.5 mil/season.

There are only 7 veteran starters (guys not on rookie contracts) that make less than Jimmy. 1 is 44 year old Tom Brady, 1 is 39 year old Roethlisberger, 1 is 38 year old Ryan Fitzpatrick, 1 is Teddy Bridgewater who just got ran out of Carolina in favor Sam Darnold, and 1 is Andy Dalton who was signed as 100% a bridge starter that might last 1/2 a season. Which only leaves Stafford ($27 mil/season) and Carr ($25 mil/season).

If we are going solely on salary cost being the reason why a player is required to overcome the deficiencies of their teammates' poor play, Arik Armstead is public enemy #1. Dude is the 14th highest DLineman (25th highest paid defender at any position) @ $17 mil/season. For that kind of money the 49ers have reaped the rich rewards of 4 tackles (2 solo) and 2 QB pressures (1 sack) through 3 games.

Contracts are a product of when they're signed, and Garoppolo is in the fourth year of his. But if the argument is that teams are also overpaying for Jared Goff and Matt Ryan, I think it's a weak one.

I don't like - and have never liked - the Armstead contract. I'm on record long ago bemoaning the lavish FA contracts this FO shelled out to mediocre (or worse) talents that ultimately prevented us from keeping Buckner. And Armstead deserves plenty of heat for having minimal impact as a pass rusher. But a QB can affect the game in a way that a DL can't, even an elite one. Literally every play (at least prior to total garbage time), a QB has the opportunity to swing a game. It's a far more important position, and with that come higher expectations.

You are exactly right. Garoppolo signed his contract fresh off coming over in midseason trade and leading a 1-10 football team to 5 straight wins. His contract was also widely regarded as being pretty team friendly, which it is. Being able to get out of his final year for a mere $2mil cap hit, is a pretty good thing.

[thesack12]

And he can make some killer rookie mistakes. he showed that during the preseason. And all the other rookies are struggling. Trey has far less experience than any of them. Jimmy G is limited in what he can do and limits the offense but he still does enough to win. Anyone who thinks Lance can't do any worse are kidding themselves. I also don't think Shanahan can just make it easy for Lance. The Oline is pass blocking worse than I hoped. And that is going to hurt Lance. If Shanahan decides to start Lance I will fully support it. I just don't think it is going to be as smooth as some fans think it will be.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/nfl-rookie-qb-rankings-trey-lance-rises-others-struggle

Yeah, I don't think people are legitimately taking into consideration just how much of a meteoric leap going from FCS college football to the NFL is. Let alone trying to do that after pretty much being idle for a full season. While Lance did play 1 game, he wasn't even allowed to formally practice the vast majority of that year.

This year's rookie QB class are all struggling MIGHTILY, and all those other guys were highly decorated college players from big time programs. All those other guys are vastly more experienced and polished than Trey Lance is.

With Justin Fields specifically, he had a horrific game last Sunday and neither his coach's or O-line helped him like at all. Still where was his elusiveness being able to evade pressure and pick up yards with his legs? Where was his his ability to make plays off script when the play broke down? He didn't show any of that, because playing QB in the NFL is damn difficult. He has yet to be able to adjust.

On a 2-1 team, where the current QB led a drive to take the lead with 37 seconds remaining in the 1 game they did lose, to say that that team needs a QB change for the very raw under experienced rookie, is baffling. It seems like those takes are mostly based out of shear hate for Garoppolo.

This is a 17 game season, and we now have an extra wild card available, yet some choose to believe the season is almost already lost.

Its inevitable that Trey Lance time is coming, and when that time comes I'll be all aboard the Trey train. However, trying to force that to happen sooner, most likely isn't going to help anybody in the equation.

I'm not advocating for a knee-jerk reaction. But I'm also a pragmatist. The Rams just dominated the SB champs. The Cards might have the best offense in the league. And we have shortcomings at important positions that have no realistic chance of improving dramatically in the near future. If we lose next week, or the next two weeks to drop to 2-3 (at which point we could very realistically be three games behind the division leader), I think we've got to consider getting the rookie some experience so we can be competitive next year instead of breaking in an inexperienced passer then.

I don't disagree with your overall point, in wanting/needing to get Lance some seasoning. However, I'm having a seriously hard time grasping that time should be after 5 games into a 17 game season.

To me, that situation is more of a team is sitting with a 4-8 record type of thing.