The GTFO Jimmy Thread

[Pattersonca65]

It is quite ridiculous. We've known what Jimmy is and what he isn't. Last night came down to a couple of plays which were turning points in the game. All this Jimmy bashing over last night's game is kinda ridiculous

This!

The vast majority hate Garoppolo for what he isn't, than what he actually is. Sure, we would all love to have a do it all, Mt Rushmore type QB, but the fact of the matter is those guys are exceedingly rare.

Yet hordes of people want to compare Jimmy to those caliber of guys, and get mad because he can't perform up to that pie in the sky type of level. Then they want to bemoan "context" when facts are presented to them that don't fit their narrative, when they themselves are using no context to support their argument.

The scary part is, there are already people that are likening Trey Lance to being Josh Allen 2.0. While its not inconceivable he can get there, that is not a likely outcome. Those people are already setting up Lance for failure/disapointment within their own minds. What happens if he Trey doesn't approach being that caliber of player, are they going to deem him a failure and curse the day he became a 49er?

Realistic standards/goals/and expectations are in short supply within 49ers fan circles. Trey Lance can be a very good player and have a very successful career even if he doesn't approach top 3 caliber NFL QB.

The expectations are there because the 49ers outside of Jimmy and the corners, are a super bowl ready team.

Id say our offensive weapons are top 5, easily top 10. Our O-Line is solid, run game is great. Front 7 is fantastic. It sucks to have such a fantastic squad that can physically dominate teams, but you are very limited in what your QB can do.

Jimmy is decent, and may be better than what Lance will be next year. But having Jimmy cuts the playbook in half and makes your offense (especially in big moments) predictable.

If you are going to give up what you did to go up and get Lance, the fan base has no choice but to be optimistic that the sky is the limit for him. I don't think he needs to be Allen level for this team to win a super bowl.

Our oline is not solid. Not by a long shot. It is better at run blocking but inconsistent at pass blocking. McGlinchey never could get good at pass blocking. He whiffs far too often. He goes down and we are left with Compton who overachieved for a spell but too often resorted to who he really is during the playoffs. Often Jimmy's quick release and short passes makes the oline better than it is

[CrimsonCrew]

Mahomes and Allen were mentioned in regards to comparing Jimmy.

You know probably the best 2 QB's in the game right now, and certainly the 2 most dynamic QB talents.

I'll listen to criticism, but comparing Garoppolo to guys like that, is the very reason why Jimmy is hated so much. Its impossible standards.

It is quite ridiculous. We've known what Jimmy is and what he isn't. Last night came down to a couple of plays which were turning points in the game. All this Jimmy bashing over last night's game is kinda ridiculous

This!

The vast majority hate Garoppolo for what he isn't, than what he actually is. Sure, we would all love to have a do it all, Mt Rushmore type QB, but the fact of the matter is those guys are exceedingly rare.

Yet hordes of people want to compare Jimmy to those caliber of guys, and get mad because he can't perform up to that pie in the sky type of level. Then they want to bemoan "context" when facts are presented to them that don't fit their narrative, when they themselves are using no context to support their argument.

The scary part is, there are already people that are likening Trey Lance to being Josh Allen 2.0. While its not inconceivable he can get there, that is not a likely outcome. Those people are already setting up Lance for failure/disapointment within their own minds. What happens if he Trey doesn't approach being that caliber of player, are they going to deem him a failure and curse the day he became a 49er?

Realistic standards/goals/and expectations are in short supply within 49ers fan circles. Trey Lance can be a very good player and have a very successful career even if he doesn't approach top 3 caliber NFL QB.

The Josh Allen analogy scares me. Don't get me wrong, I hope Kyle spends all offseason studying Josh Allen film and learning the best way to handle Lance (note: not how we did it in the AZ game). But Lance had a real accuracy problem in college, and Allen is the rare guy who has dramatically improved his accuracy as a pro. There's no guarantee Lance can do that; on the contrary, NFL history is FULL of highly regarded QBs who never improved their accuracy and washed out quickly. Lance also doesn't have Allen's physicality as a runner. We've got to use him in a smarter fashion.

Lance has a ton of upside in this offense. Shanahan will get him open looks, and he just needs to hit them. But we need to see him do it before we take for granted that he can. And playing under pressure is a huge component of any NFL QB and a pretty big variable for Lance given what he saw in college.

[Pattersonca65]

Mahomes and Allen were mentioned in regards to comparing Jimmy.

You know probably the best 2 QB's in the game right now, and certainly the 2 most dynamic QB talents.

I'll listen to criticism, but comparing Garoppolo to guys like that, is the very reason why Jimmy is hated so much. Its impossible standards.

It is quite ridiculous. We've known what Jimmy is and what he isn't. Last night came down to a couple of plays which were turning points in the game. All this Jimmy bashing over last night's game is kinda ridiculous

This!

The vast majority hate Garoppolo for what he isn't, than what he actually is. Sure, we would all love to have a do it all, Mt Rushmore type QB, but the fact of the matter is those guys are exceedingly rare.

Yet hordes of people want to compare Jimmy to those caliber of guys, and get mad because he can't perform up to that pie in the sky type of level. Then they want to bemoan "context" when facts are presented to them that don't fit their narrative, when they themselves are using no context to support their argument.

The scary part is, there are already people that are likening Trey Lance to being Josh Allen 2.0. While its not inconceivable he can get there, that is not a likely outcome. Those people are already setting up Lance for failure/disapointment within their own minds. What happens if he Trey doesn't approach being that caliber of player, are they going to deem him a failure and curse the day he became a 49er?

Realistic standards/goals/and expectations are in short supply within 49ers fan circles. Trey Lance can be a very good player and have a very successful career even if he doesn't approach top 3 caliber NFL QB.

And the 49ers gave up three firsts for Lance so the pressure and expectations will be greater to be better than just good.

[CrimsonCrew]

I don't know that Lance will be better, but on day one, he's going to open up a downfield and perimeter passing game (even though Lance was actually a pretty bad statistical deep passer in college), to say nothing of the running game. He brings things to the table that Jimmy couldn't imagine, so if he can synthesize Shanahan's offense even at 80% of Garoppolo's level, I think we're probably better off. If he can match or exceed Jimmy, especially in terms of taking care of the ball, the sky is the limit for this team. At least for the next couple years.

Lance has a higher ceiling.

But I'm not convinced Shanahan will tailor the offense to Lance's strengths.

He had Trey run some head scratching plays in his starts, like running him up the middle 3 or 4 times in the first Cards game.

Kyle doesn't deserve to be called offensive genius until he actually wins some big games. His record in big games is horrible.

An actual genius like Walsh won big games.

Any playoff game is a big game, and Shanahan was masterful in the first two games of the 2019 playoffs. Not as much so - at least on offense - this year. We'll see what Lance can do. As I've noted before, Shanahan is a master at scheming up plays, but his play-in, play-out playcalling is not as good, and his game management is much worse. He's got to put it together.

[wco81]

If you are going to give up what you did to go up and get Lance, the fan base has no choice but to be optimistic that the sky is the limit for him. I don't think he needs to be Allen level for this team to win a super bowl.

Or it could be yet another bad move, bad personnel decision by Shanahan and Lynch.

There have been so many of them.


They got further than I would have expected with that secondary.

So I don't agree that they're close to a championship roster.

Too many draft pick misses.

I hope they prove me wrong and McGlinchey Aiyuk, Kinlaw, Banks and Sermon come to training camp vastly improved and ready to play key roles next season. Lance as well of course.


I believe they'd have to re-sign Ward, Tartt, K. Williams or find their replacements. That is a tall order.

They may not have Mack or Tomlinson back either. In any case, they have to upgrade the right side of the line, maybe the LG as well.

[CrimsonCrew]

This!

The vast majority hate Garoppolo for what he isn't, than what he actually is. Sure, we would all love to have a do it all, Mt Rushmore type QB, but the fact of the matter is those guys are exceedingly rare.

Yet hordes of people want to compare Jimmy to those caliber of guys, and get mad because he can't perform up to that pie in the sky type of level. Then they want to bemoan "context" when facts are presented to them that don't fit their narrative, when they themselves are using no context to support their argument.

The scary part is, there are already people that are likening Trey Lance to being Josh Allen 2.0. While its not inconceivable he can get there, that is not a likely outcome. Those people are already setting up Lance for failure/disapointment within their own minds. What happens if he Trey doesn't approach being that caliber of player, are they going to deem him a failure and curse the day he became a 49er?

Realistic standards/goals/and expectations are in short supply within 49ers fan circles. Trey Lance can be a very good player and have a very successful career even if he doesn't approach top 3 caliber NFL QB.

The expectations are there because the 49ers outside of Jimmy and the corners, are a super bowl ready team.

Id say our offensive weapons are top 5, easily top 10. Our O-Line is solid, run game is great. Front 7 is fantastic. It sucks to have such a fantastic squad that can physically dominate teams, but you are very limited in what your QB can do.

Jimmy is decent, and may be better than what Lance will be next year. But having Jimmy cuts the playbook in half and makes your offense (especially in big moments) predictable.

If you are going to give up what you did to go up and get Lance, the fan base has no choice but to be optimistic that the sky is the limit for him. I don't think he needs to be Allen level for this team to win a super bowl.

Our oline is not solid. Not by a long shot. It is better at run blocking but inconsistent at pass blocking. McGlinchey never could get good at pass blocking. He whiffs far too often. He goes down and we are left with Compton who overachieved for a spell but too often resorted to who he really is during the playoffs. Often Jimmy's quick release and short passes makes the oline better than it is

The OL has plenty of question marks, but they played pretty well down the stretch. Some real struggles in Green Bay, but they were mostly solid last night against a really good Rams' front - at least when they knew the ball had been snapped. They did a really nice job against Dallas, and the Rams in week 18.

[Pattersonca65]

The expectations are there because the 49ers outside of Jimmy and the corners, are a super bowl ready team.

Id say our offensive weapons are top 5, easily top 10. Our O-Line is solid, run game is great. Front 7 is fantastic. It sucks to have such a fantastic squad that can physically dominate teams, but you are very limited in what your QB can do.

Jimmy is decent, and may be better than what Lance will be next year. But having Jimmy cuts the playbook in half and makes your offense (especially in big moments) predictable.

If you are going to give up what you did to go up and get Lance, the fan base has no choice but to be optimistic that the sky is the limit for him. I don't think he needs to be Allen level for this team to win a super bowl.

Our oline is not solid. Not by a long shot. It is better at run blocking but inconsistent at pass blocking. McGlinchey never could get good at pass blocking. He whiffs far too often. He goes down and we are left with Compton who overachieved for a spell but too often resorted to who he really is during the playoffs. Often Jimmy's quick release and short passes makes the oline better than it is

The OL has plenty of question marks, but they played pretty well down the stretch. Some real struggles in Green Bay, but they were mostly solid last night against a really good Rams' front - at least when they knew the ball had been snapped. They did a really nice job against Dallas, and the Rams in week 18.

last night until late in the game and 4th quarter. Do you know why the 49ers could not do more to stop Cooper Kupp? He appears the Rams go to guy and the 49ers were covering him one and one with Kwuan Williams who could not stay with Kupp.

[CrimsonCrew]

If you are going to give up what you did to go up and get Lance, the fan base has no choice but to be optimistic that the sky is the limit for him. I don't think he needs to be Allen level for this team to win a super bowl.

Or it could be yet another bad move, bad personnel decision by Shanahan and Lynch.

There have been so many of them.


They got further than I would have expected with that secondary.

So I don't agree that they're close to a championship roster.

Too many draft pick misses.

I hope they prove me wrong and McGlinchey Aiyuk, Kinlaw, Banks and Sermon come to training camp vastly improved and ready to play key roles next season. Lance as well of course.


I believe they'd have to re-sign Ward, Tartt, K. Williams or find their replacements. That is a tall order.

They may not have Mack or Tomlinson back either. In any case, they have to upgrade the right side of the line, maybe the LG as well.

Ward is under contract for one more year. The rest of those guys are pretty replaceable IMO. Not to say they're garbage, but they are near replacement-level.

I think Aiyuk vindicated his draft position after a very rocky start. He was really producing on a run-first team where he was probably the fourth option to touch the ball. In the 13 games once he got out of the doghouse (disclaimer: I am not counting the GB game because that was such an offensive **** show, and he did have a drop on his lone target), he put up 865 yards. That's over 66 YPG, and extrapolates to 1,000+ yards over 16 games. I think he'll be just fine.

But several of the other picks stick in the craw. Banks is looking awful, particularly given that Creed Humphrey was a better fit for our team and had an awesome year. Kinlaw needs to get healthy and realize his potential. He needed development, and he's gotten little of it the past two years. Don't really know what to make of Sermon.

I agree they were lucky to get as far as they did, but the reality is that they came a few minutes away from making the SB with this roster, so by definition they're at least close to a championship roster. But I really don't want to overstate their talent. They have some glaring weaknesses they will need to address this offseason, and a lack of draft capital to do it.

[LightTheBeam]

If you are going to give up what you did to go up and get Lance, the fan base has no choice but to be optimistic that the sky is the limit for him. I don't think he needs to be Allen level for this team to win a super bowl.

Or it could be yet another bad move, bad personnel decision by Shanahan and Lynch.

There have been so many of them.


They got further than I would have expected with that secondary.

So I don't agree that they're close to a championship roster.

Too many draft pick misses.

I hope they prove me wrong and McGlinchey Aiyuk, Kinlaw, Banks and Sermon come to training camp vastly improved and ready to play key roles next season. Lance as well of course.


I believe they'd have to re-sign Ward, Tartt, K. Williams or find their replacements. That is a tall order.

They may not have Mack or Tomlinson back either. In any case, they have to upgrade the right side of the line, maybe the LG as well.

Ward is under contract for one more year. The rest of those guys are pretty replaceable IMO. Not to say they're garbage, but they are near replacement-level.

I think Aiyuk vindicated his draft position after a very rocky start. He was really producing on a run-first team where he was probably the fourth option to touch the ball. In the 13 games once he got out of the doghouse (disclaimer: I am not counting the GB game because that was such an offensive **** show, and he did have a drop on his lone target), he put up 865 yards. That's over 66 YPG, and extrapolates to 1,000+ yards over 16 games. I think he'll be just fine.

But several of the other picks stick in the craw. Banks is looking awful, particularly given that Creed Humphrey was a better fit for our team and had an awesome year. Kinlaw needs to get healthy and realize his potential. He needed development, and he's gotten little of it the past two years. Don't really know what to make of Sermon.

I agree they were lucky to get as far as they did, but the reality is that they came a few minutes away from making the SB with this roster, so by definition they're at least close to a championship roster. But I really don't want to overstate their talent. They have some glaring weaknesses they will need to address this offseason, and a lack of draft capital to do it.

If Ford retires and Jimmy is traded, what does the cap sheet look like this upcoming season? Obviously it depends on the new contacts for Bosa, Jones, Deebo. But generally speaking.

What are the real holes that need to be patched? We basically need to add a #1 corner, a safety and then possibly center and G (if Mack is gone and Banks is a bust)? After that its mostly just filling out depth.

Am I missing something else?

[thesack12]

It is quite ridiculous. We've known what Jimmy is and what he isn't. Last night came down to a couple of plays which were turning points in the game. All this Jimmy bashing over last night's game is kinda ridiculous

This!

The vast majority hate Garoppolo for what he isn't, than what he actually is. Sure, we would all love to have a do it all, Mt Rushmore type QB, but the fact of the matter is those guys are exceedingly rare.

Yet hordes of people want to compare Jimmy to those caliber of guys, and get mad because he can't perform up to that pie in the sky type of level. Then they want to bemoan "context" when facts are presented to them that don't fit their narrative, when they themselves are using no context to support their argument.

The scary part is, there are already people that are likening Trey Lance to being Josh Allen 2.0. While its not inconceivable he can get there, that is not a likely outcome. Those people are already setting up Lance for failure/disapointment within their own minds. What happens if he Trey doesn't approach being that caliber of player, are they going to deem him a failure and curse the day he became a 49er?

Realistic standards/goals/and expectations are in short supply within 49ers fan circles. Trey Lance can be a very good player and have a very successful career even if he doesn't approach top 3 caliber NFL QB.

The expectations are there because the 49ers outside of Jimmy and the corners, are a super bowl ready team.

Id say our offensive weapons are top 5, easily top 10. Our O-Line is solid, run game is great. Front 7 is fantastic. It sucks to have such a fantastic squad that can physically dominate teams, but you are very limited in what your QB can do.

Jimmy is decent, and may be better than what Lance will be next year. But having Jimmy cuts the playbook in half and makes your offense (especially in big moments) predictable.

If you are going to give up what you did to go up and get Lance, the fan base has no choice but to be optimistic that the sky is the limit for him. I don't think he needs to be Allen level for this team to win a super bowl.

First off, I'm glad to see you have graduated to a thoughtful post as opposed to the emotionally driven closed mindedness you were experiencing last night...

As Patterson has already mentioned, the O-line is not solid. They are quite poor with pass protection.

The 49ers offense was #1 in yards gained per play, #5 in explosive plays, #1 in red zone efficiency, #2 in yards per pass attempt. So I'm just not seeing how Garoppolo is apparently such a drag on the offense's performance.

The run game has not been great this season, that is a myth. They lost Mostert for the season after exactly 2 carries. Fortunately Mitchell stepped in and played quite well for the most part (still he even missed 6 games). Still The 9ers only gained 4.3 yards per rush this season, which was 16th best. That YPC dropped to a lowly 3.7 yards per carry in the playoffs. Mitchell was especially bad in the playoffs with 55 carries for only 169 yards (a measly 3.1 yards per carry.)

9ers had 20 carries for 50 total yards last night against the Rams a rate of 2.5 yards per clip. That kind of performance just isn't going to get the job done.

Expanding on the run game's prowess I posted a stat earlier in the thread that shows since 2017 (Garoppolo era) the 9ers aren't even top 10 in rushing EPA.

I'm not sure what you mean by having Jimmy out there cuts the playbook in half. Isn't a offensive boss supposed to design their offense around the strengths of their personnel? That said there is merit to your overall point here, as having a QB with limitations hinders play design. But so does having an O-Line that struggles with pass protections, which doesn't allow time for things to develop downfield.

As for being predictable on offense, I would argue the clearly the biggest cuplrit to that problem was incessantly having Deebo in the backfield. That's about as predictable as you can get, IMO anyways.

As for the optimism on Lance, by all means of course there are lots of legitimate reasons for that to exist. I myself fall into that camp as well. But Trey has done next to nothing so far, and he doesn't have the background/experience that usually leads to guys becoming High end NFL Quarterbacks. That said, he can absolutely get there. But if he does, he will be an outlier sample case.

[thesack12]

I'll note that top-12 is within the top-20, so...

I think you've got to put the promising youngsters ahead of him. They aren't better than him yet, but pretty much any team would take the gamble rather than roll with Garoppolo at this point. Here are the guys - in a very rough order - that I would take over him for one game without a second thought, taking possible retirements out of it.

Brady
Rodgers
Mahomes
Allen
Burrow
Herbert
Stafford
Wilson
Prescott
Jackson
Murray (though his end to the season gives me a lot of pause)

That's eleven guys where I don't think there's really an objective argument to take Jimmy over them. Guys who are closer calls include:

Carr
Cousins
Tannehill
Ryan

Jimmy is more of a "winner" than all of those guys, but you can argue that all of them except maybe Tannehill are asked to do considerably more for their teams. Then we have the young guns who, again, you probably take over Jimmy:

Jones
Fields
Lawrence
Wilson

I think there's a pretty strong argument you'd take the upside of any of those guys over Jimmy.

Anyway, just a quick review. Sure I'm leaving some things out, and no real point, other than to stress that the QB landscape is bleak in a lot of NFL towns.

Yeah, these types of lists are always subjective to each's own individual opinions.

I think its important to note that when compiling a top ___ list, It should be based upon known commodities. In other words, build it off of tangibility. So young QB's who haven't done anything yet should be slotted in by their current performance, not based on their potential/upside. That type of exercise, should be used when making the what QB would you want to build your team with type of lists.

Potential and upside wind up being the reason why a lot of Coaches and GM's get fired.

Anyways, Your initial group of 11 is exactly on par with mine. Which is where I came up with my Jimmy is a top 12 QB proclamation. With Brady retiring, everybody else moves up a spot moving forward.

Of that 2nd group of names. I've never been a Derek Carr guy. He'll pile up some yardage but its mostly hollow stats based on shear volume. Cousins is another guy where the raw stats look quite good, but his game has never translated to winning games. Tannehill is more physically gifted than Garoppolo, but his overall game is just as limited. Tannehill takes a ton of sacks, and turns the ball over pretty often (and you absolutely can't have a 3 INT game in the playoffs.) And at this point Matt Ryan is cooked.

So yeah, like you alluded to this doesn't really mean much. And yes there are quite a few NFL franchise's that are currently stuck in QB purgatory.

But for now, I'm confident with my personal opinion that Garoppolo is a top 12 QB.

[thesack12]

It is quite ridiculous. We've known what Jimmy is and what he isn't. Last night came down to a couple of plays which were turning points in the game. All this Jimmy bashing over last night's game is kinda ridiculous

This!

The vast majority hate Garoppolo for what he isn't, than what he actually is. Sure, we would all love to have a do it all, Mt Rushmore type QB, but the fact of the matter is those guys are exceedingly rare.

Yet hordes of people want to compare Jimmy to those caliber of guys, and get mad because he can't perform up to that pie in the sky type of level. Then they want to bemoan "context" when facts are presented to them that don't fit their narrative, when they themselves are using no context to support their argument.

The scary part is, there are already people that are likening Trey Lance to being Josh Allen 2.0. While its not inconceivable he can get there, that is not a likely outcome. Those people are already setting up Lance for failure/disapointment within their own minds. What happens if he Trey doesn't approach being that caliber of player, are they going to deem him a failure and curse the day he became a 49er?

Realistic standards/goals/and expectations are in short supply within 49ers fan circles. Trey Lance can be a very good player and have a very successful career even if he doesn't approach top 3 caliber NFL QB.

The Josh Allen analogy scares me. Don't get me wrong, I hope Kyle spends all offseason studying Josh Allen film and learning the best way to handle Lance (note: not how we did it in the AZ game). But Lance had a real accuracy problem in college, and Allen is the rare guy who has dramatically improved his accuracy as a pro. There's no guarantee Lance can do that; on the contrary, NFL history is FULL of highly regarded QBs who never improved their accuracy and washed out quickly. Lance also doesn't have Allen's physicality as a runner. We've got to use him in a smarter fashion.

Lance has a ton of upside in this offense. Shanahan will get him open looks, and he just needs to hit them. But we need to see him do it before we take for granted that he can. And playing under pressure is a huge component of any NFL QB and a pretty big variable for Lance given what he saw in college.

Great post

[CrimsonCrew]

Or it could be yet another bad move, bad personnel decision by Shanahan and Lynch.

There have been so many of them.


They got further than I would have expected with that secondary.

So I don't agree that they're close to a championship roster.

Too many draft pick misses.

I hope they prove me wrong and McGlinchey Aiyuk, Kinlaw, Banks and Sermon come to training camp vastly improved and ready to play key roles next season. Lance as well of course.


I believe they'd have to re-sign Ward, Tartt, K. Williams or find their replacements. That is a tall order.

They may not have Mack or Tomlinson back either. In any case, they have to upgrade the right side of the line, maybe the LG as well.

Ward is under contract for one more year. The rest of those guys are pretty replaceable IMO. Not to say they're garbage, but they are near replacement-level.

I think Aiyuk vindicated his draft position after a very rocky start. He was really producing on a run-first team where he was probably the fourth option to touch the ball. In the 13 games once he got out of the doghouse (disclaimer: I am not counting the GB game because that was such an offensive **** show, and he did have a drop on his lone target), he put up 865 yards. That's over 66 YPG, and extrapolates to 1,000+ yards over 16 games. I think he'll be just fine.

But several of the other picks stick in the craw. Banks is looking awful, particularly given that Creed Humphrey was a better fit for our team and had an awesome year. Kinlaw needs to get healthy and realize his potential. He needed development, and he's gotten little of it the past two years. Don't really know what to make of Sermon.

I agree they were lucky to get as far as they did, but the reality is that they came a few minutes away from making the SB with this roster, so by definition they're at least close to a championship roster. But I really don't want to overstate their talent. They have some glaring weaknesses they will need to address this offseason, and a lack of draft capital to do it.

If Ford retires and Jimmy is traded, what does the cap sheet look like this upcoming season? Obviously it depends on the new contacts for Bosa, Jones, Deebo. But generally speaking.

What are the real holes that need to be patched? We basically need to add a #1 corner, a safety and then possibly center and G (if Mack is gone and Banks is a bust)? After that its mostly just filling out depth.

Am I missing something else?

If I'm reading it correctly, we only save about $2 million by cutting Ford this offseason (that was a devastating move in terms of draft capital and contract). Cutting Garoppolo would save us about $25.5 million. Those two moves would put us a little over $30 million under the cap. I can't see us extending Bosa this year as we've got the fifth-year option, but we have extended guys early in the past. Deebo will get a big chunk of that, and Jones a somewhat lesser one. Nickel corners never seem to make a ton, so we should be able to either re-sign Williams or find a replacement. Moore is a FA, but should come cheap if we want to bring him back at safety. Interior OL are usually relative discounts.

[LightTheBeam]

This!

The vast majority hate Garoppolo for what he isn't, than what he actually is. Sure, we would all love to have a do it all, Mt Rushmore type QB, but the fact of the matter is those guys are exceedingly rare.

Yet hordes of people want to compare Jimmy to those caliber of guys, and get mad because he can't perform up to that pie in the sky type of level. Then they want to bemoan "context" when facts are presented to them that don't fit their narrative, when they themselves are using no context to support their argument.

The scary part is, there are already people that are likening Trey Lance to being Josh Allen 2.0. While its not inconceivable he can get there, that is not a likely outcome. Those people are already setting up Lance for failure/disapointment within their own minds. What happens if he Trey doesn't approach being that caliber of player, are they going to deem him a failure and curse the day he became a 49er?

Realistic standards/goals/and expectations are in short supply within 49ers fan circles. Trey Lance can be a very good player and have a very successful career even if he doesn't approach top 3 caliber NFL QB.

The expectations are there because the 49ers outside of Jimmy and the corners, are a super bowl ready team.

Id say our offensive weapons are top 5, easily top 10. Our O-Line is solid, run game is great. Front 7 is fantastic. It sucks to have such a fantastic squad that can physically dominate teams, but you are very limited in what your QB can do.

Jimmy is decent, and may be better than what Lance will be next year. But having Jimmy cuts the playbook in half and makes your offense (especially in big moments) predictable.

If you are going to give up what you did to go up and get Lance, the fan base has no choice but to be optimistic that the sky is the limit for him. I don't think he needs to be Allen level for this team to win a super bowl.

First off, I'm glad to see you have graduated to a thoughtful post as opposed to the emotionally driven closed mindedness you were experiencing last night...

As Patterson has already mentioned, the O-line is not solid. They are quite poor with pass protection.

The 49ers offense was #1 in yards gained per play, #5 in explosive plays, #1 in red zone efficiency, #2 in yards per pass attempt. So I'm just not seeing how Garoppolo is apparently such a drag on the offense's performance.

The run game has not been great this season, that is a myth. They lost Mostert for the season after exactly 2 carries. Fortunately Mitchell stepped in and played quite well for the most part. Still The 9ers only gained 4.3 yards per rush this season, which was 16th best. That YPC dropped to a lowly 3.7 yards per carry in the playoffs. Mitchell was especially bad in the playoffs with 55 carries for only 169 yards (a measly 3.1 yards per carry.)

9ers had 20 carries for 50 total yards last night against the Rams a rate of 2.5 yards per clip. That kind of performance just isn't going to get the job done.

Expanding on the run game's prowess I posted a stat earlier in the thread that shows since 2017 (Garoppolo era) the 9ers aren't even top 10 in rushing EPA.

I'm not sure what you mean by having Jimmy out there cuts the playbook in half. Isn't a offensive boss supposed to design their offense around the strengths of their personnel? That said there is merit to your overall point here, as having a QB with limitations hinders play design. But so does having an O-Line that struggles with pass protections, which doesn't allow time for things to develop downfield.

As for being predictable on offense, I would argue the clearly the biggest cuplrit to that problem was incessantly having Deebo in the backfield. That's about as predictable as you can get, IMO anyways.

As for the optimism on Lance, by all means of course there are lots of legitimate reasons for that to exist. I myself fall into that camp as well. But Trey has done next to nothing so far, and he doesn't have the background/experience that usually leads to guys becoming High end NFL Quarterbacks. That said, he can absolutely get there. But if he does, he will be an outlier sample case.

I'm not sure what you mean about last night, maybe thinking of another poster?

"I've been begging for lance since week 8. That said, thank you Jimmy. You helped bring hope back to this franchise after a rough stretch. He helped us get to a super bowl. While ultimately he isn't talented enough to get the job done, he's a class act and good guy. I'll always root for him. Just glad it won't be in a 49ers uni.

Welcome to the Trey era!"

This is all I said about Jimmy last night. I appreciate everything hes done for us.

All of what you said about the offense is great, but when you aren't a threat to throw deep, or even realistically to the sidelines, it hurts the offense. Not to mention he's good for about 2-3 boneheaded throws/game that are intercepted or should be intercepted.

As for the run game, you mentioned it. We lost Mostert 2 carries in and Wilson missed half the season, Eli took over and in 11 games had 963 yards for 4.7ypc. We finished 9th in the league with 20+ yard runs. We had 22 rushing tds good for 5th in the league, 8th in the league in 1st down rushes (most the teams ahead are teams with Rushing QBs, Hurts, Allen, Lamar). Yes it certainly slowed down in the playoffs, but so did the passing game. Its nearly impossible to run in games like we played yesterday when the Rams are loading up and daring our QB to beat them.

The offensive line isn't perfect, but it certainly isn't close to the worst in the league. According to ESPN Analytics - https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32176833/2021-nfl-pass-rushing-run-stopping-blocking-leaderboard-win-rate-rankings

The 49ers were 5th in pass block win rate - our pass block win rate metric conveys the rate linemen can sustain their blocks for 2.5 seconds or longer.

Maybe Deebo made us more predictable being in the backfield, that was about getting the ball in Deebos hands as much as possible. I personally think that speaks on Shanahans trust in Jimmy. I'll trust the guy whose spent the last few years watching him daily in practice to know what he is capable of. If your coach doesn't trust you to go out and win a game, then i'm sorry but it just won't work.

[LightTheBeam]

Ward is under contract for one more year. The rest of those guys are pretty replaceable IMO. Not to say they're garbage, but they are near replacement-level.

I think Aiyuk vindicated his draft position after a very rocky start. He was really producing on a run-first team where he was probably the fourth option to touch the ball. In the 13 games once he got out of the doghouse (disclaimer: I am not counting the GB game because that was such an offensive **** show, and he did have a drop on his lone target), he put up 865 yards. That's over 66 YPG, and extrapolates to 1,000+ yards over 16 games. I think he'll be just fine.

But several of the other picks stick in the craw. Banks is looking awful, particularly given that Creed Humphrey was a better fit for our team and had an awesome year. Kinlaw needs to get healthy and realize his potential. He needed development, and he's gotten little of it the past two years. Don't really know what to make of Sermon.

I agree they were lucky to get as far as they did, but the reality is that they came a few minutes away from making the SB with this roster, so by definition they're at least close to a championship roster. But I really don't want to overstate their talent. They have some glaring weaknesses they will need to address this offseason, and a lack of draft capital to do it.

If Ford retires and Jimmy is traded, what does the cap sheet look like this upcoming season? Obviously it depends on the new contacts for Bosa, Jones, Deebo. But generally speaking.

What are the real holes that need to be patched? We basically need to add a #1 corner, a safety and then possibly center and G (if Mack is gone and Banks is a bust)? After that its mostly just filling out depth.

Am I missing something else?

If I'm reading it correctly, we only save about $2 million by cutting Ford this offseason (that was a devastating move in terms of draft capital and contract). Cutting Garoppolo would save us about $25.5 million. Those two moves would put us a little over $30 million under the cap. I can't see us extending Bosa this year as we've got the fifth-year option, but we have extended guys early in the past. Deebo will get a big chunk of that, and Jones a somewhat lesser one. Nickel corners never seem to make a ton, so we should be able to either re-sign Williams or find a replacement. Moore is a FA, but should come cheap if we want to bring him back at safety. Interior OL are usually relative discounts.

If Ford retires does that not change the savings? That move was a killer...

This year draft will be extremely important. They absolutely need a top corner. With the first pick we have being #61 that is going to be a tall ask. Would be really nice if they could get one via trade or FA.

[thesack12]

Or it could be yet another bad move, bad personnel decision by Shanahan and Lynch.

There have been so many of them.


They got further than I would have expected with that secondary.

So I don't agree that they're close to a championship roster.

Too many draft pick misses.

I hope they prove me wrong and McGlinchey Aiyuk, Kinlaw, Banks and Sermon come to training camp vastly improved and ready to play key roles next season. Lance as well of course.


I believe they'd have to re-sign Ward, Tartt, K. Williams or find their replacements. That is a tall order.

They may not have Mack or Tomlinson back either. In any case, they have to upgrade the right side of the line, maybe the LG as well.

Ward is under contract for one more year. The rest of those guys are pretty replaceable IMO. Not to say they're garbage, but they are near replacement-level.

I think Aiyuk vindicated his draft position after a very rocky start. He was really producing on a run-first team where he was probably the fourth option to touch the ball. In the 13 games once he got out of the doghouse (disclaimer: I am not counting the GB game because that was such an offensive **** show, and he did have a drop on his lone target), he put up 865 yards. That's over 66 YPG, and extrapolates to 1,000+ yards over 16 games. I think he'll be just fine.

But several of the other picks stick in the craw. Banks is looking awful, particularly given that Creed Humphrey was a better fit for our team and had an awesome year. Kinlaw needs to get healthy and realize his potential. He needed development, and he's gotten little of it the past two years. Don't really know what to make of Sermon.

I agree they were lucky to get as far as they did, but the reality is that they came a few minutes away from making the SB with this roster, so by definition they're at least close to a championship roster. But I really don't want to overstate their talent. They have some glaring weaknesses they will need to address this offseason, and a lack of draft capital to do it.

If Ford retires and Jimmy is traded, what does the cap sheet look like this upcoming season? Obviously it depends on the new contacts for Bosa, Jones, Deebo. But generally speaking.

What are the real holes that need to be patched? We basically need to add a #1 corner, a safety and then possibly center and G (if Mack is gone and Banks is a bust)? After that its mostly just filling out depth.

Am I missing something else?

Using rough estimates based off Spotrac, subtracting Jimmy and Ford would have the 9ers about $34 under the cap.

A portion of that will be allocated to signing the draft class, although it won't be much considering they don't have a 1st round pick and all the other picks will be very late in each round.

Laken Tomlinson is a free agent, so you either need to extend him or find a replacement LG.
RG is a huge hole. Hopefully Banks can fill it, but color me quite skeptical.
As you mentioned C could be a hole depending on what Mack does.
They need AT LEAST 2 CB's. Not just the #1 you mentioned, but they need to replace K'Waun who is a FA. Really they need 3 CBs
What are they going to do with Mostert? Mitchell was a pleasant surprise, buts its already clear he can't stay healthy and needs his touches limited, Sermon isn't inspiring, so they need to do something at RB.
Jennings was a pleasant surprise. But they still have nothing after the top 3 receivers.
Kittle is the only TE worth mentioning.
DJ Jones is a FA, will be likely get paid by somebody. He's of high importance to the DL.
Tartt is likely gone. Hopefully Hufanga can fill his role, but that remains to be seen
Arden Key had a nice comeback year and will be looking to get paid
Al-Shaair stepped up nicely and will also be looking to get paid for the 1st time in his career
There are 6 Total Free agent DL (Jones, Key, Hurst, Willis, Street, Givens) So Depth will need to be addressed

[thesack12]

The expectations are there because the 49ers outside of Jimmy and the corners, are a super bowl ready team.

Id say our offensive weapons are top 5, easily top 10. Our O-Line is solid, run game is great. Front 7 is fantastic. It sucks to have such a fantastic squad that can physically dominate teams, but you are very limited in what your QB can do.

Jimmy is decent, and may be better than what Lance will be next year. But having Jimmy cuts the playbook in half and makes your offense (especially in big moments) predictable.

If you are going to give up what you did to go up and get Lance, the fan base has no choice but to be optimistic that the sky is the limit for him. I don't think he needs to be Allen level for this team to win a super bowl.

First off, I'm glad to see you have graduated to a thoughtful post as opposed to the emotionally driven closed mindedness you were experiencing last night...

As Patterson has already mentioned, the O-line is not solid. They are quite poor with pass protection.

The 49ers offense was #1 in yards gained per play, #5 in explosive plays, #1 in red zone efficiency, #2 in yards per pass attempt. So I'm just not seeing how Garoppolo is apparently such a drag on the offense's performance.

The run game has not been great this season, that is a myth. They lost Mostert for the season after exactly 2 carries. Fortunately Mitchell stepped in and played quite well for the most part. Still The 9ers only gained 4.3 yards per rush this season, which was 16th best. That YPC dropped to a lowly 3.7 yards per carry in the playoffs. Mitchell was especially bad in the playoffs with 55 carries for only 169 yards (a measly 3.1 yards per carry.)

9ers had 20 carries for 50 total yards last night against the Rams a rate of 2.5 yards per clip. That kind of performance just isn't going to get the job done.

Expanding on the run game's prowess I posted a stat earlier in the thread that shows since 2017 (Garoppolo era) the 9ers aren't even top 10 in rushing EPA.

I'm not sure what you mean by having Jimmy out there cuts the playbook in half. Isn't a offensive boss supposed to design their offense around the strengths of their personnel? That said there is merit to your overall point here, as having a QB with limitations hinders play design. But so does having an O-Line that struggles with pass protections, which doesn't allow time for things to develop downfield.

As for being predictable on offense, I would argue the clearly the biggest cuplrit to that problem was incessantly having Deebo in the backfield. That's about as predictable as you can get, IMO anyways.

As for the optimism on Lance, by all means of course there are lots of legitimate reasons for that to exist. I myself fall into that camp as well. But Trey has done next to nothing so far, and he doesn't have the background/experience that usually leads to guys becoming High end NFL Quarterbacks. That said, he can absolutely get there. But if he does, he will be an outlier sample case.

I'm not sure what you mean about last night, maybe thinking of another poster?

"I've been begging for lance since week 8. That said, thank you Jimmy. You helped bring hope back to this franchise after a rough stretch. He helped us get to a super bowl. While ultimately he isn't talented enough to get the job done, he's a class act and good guy. I'll always root for him. Just glad it won't be in a 49ers uni.

Welcome to the Trey era!"

This is all I said about Jimmy last night. I appreciate everything hes done for us.

All of what you said about the offense is great, but when you aren't a threat to throw deep, or even realistically to the sidelines, it hurts the offense. Not to mention he's good for about 2-3 boneheaded throws/game that are intercepted or should be intercepted.

As for the run game, you mentioned it. We lost Mostert 2 carries in and Wilson missed half the season, Eli took over and in 11 games had 963 yards for 4.7ypc. We finished 9th in the league with 20+ yard runs. We had 22 rushing tds good for 5th in the league, 8th in the league in 1st down rushes (most the teams ahead are teams with Rushing QBs, Hurts, Allen, Lamar). Yes it certainly slowed down in the playoffs, but so did the passing game. Its nearly impossible to run in games like we played yesterday when the Rams are loading up and daring our QB to beat them.

The offensive line isn't perfect, but it certainly isn't close to the worst in the league. According to ESPN Analytics - https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32176833/2021-nfl-pass-rushing-run-stopping-blocking-leaderboard-win-rate-rankings

The 49ers were 5th in pass block win rate - our pass block win rate metric conveys the rate linemen can sustain their blocks for 2.5 seconds or longer.

Maybe Deebo made us more predictable being in the backfield, that was about getting the ball in Deebos hands as much as possible. I personally think that speaks on Shanahans trust in Jimmy. I'll trust the guy whose spent the last few years watching him daily in practice to know what he is capable of. If your coach doesn't trust you to go out and win a game, then i'm sorry but it just won't work.

Ahh yes, you are 100% correct.

I got you "RIPPizzaGuy" mixed up with "RIPSkaterdude"

That's on me, my mistake. Sorry about that...

I'm seeing at pro football reference showing Jimmy only had 2.3 seconds of pocket time this season which was the 5th lowest. This while only being under pressure 18.7% of the time, which is the 5th lowest percentage. So that seems to show that Jimmy is helping the O-line out quite a bit by getting the ball out quickly.

Other wise, nice post. I can't argue with much.

[LightTheBeam]

Using rough estimates based off Spotrac, subtracting Jimmy and Ford would have the 9ers about $34 under the cap.

A portion of that will be allocated to signing the draft class, although it won't be much considering they don't have a 1st round pick and all the other picks will be very late in each round.

Laken Tomlinson is a free agent, so you either need to extend him or find a replacement LG.
RG is a huge hole. Hopefully Banks can fill it, but color me quite skeptical.
As you mentioned C could be a hole depending on what Mack does.
They need AT LEAST 2 CB's. Not just the #1 you mentioned, but they need to replace K'Waun who is a FA. Really they need 3 CBs
What are they going to do with Mostert? Mitchell was a pleasant surprise, buts its already clear he can't stay healthy and needs his touches limited, Sermon isn't inspiring, so they need to do something at RB.
Jennings was a pleasant surprise. But they still have nothing after the top 3 receivers.
Kittle is the only TE worth mentioning.
DJ Jones is a FA, will be likely get paid by somebody. He's of high importance to the DL.
Tartt is likely gone. Hopefully Hufanga can fill his role, but that remains to be seen
Arden Key had a nice comeback year and will be looking to get paid
Al-Shaair stepped up nicely and will also be looking to get paid for the 1st time in his career
There are 6 Total Free agent DL (Jones, Key, Hurst, Willis, Street, Givens) So Depth will need to be addressed

This is a good list.

Ya the team certainly has some maneuvering to do. But there will be some surprises stepping up and hopefully some hits in the draft. Plus no team is without holes. Role players come and go, important to keep the studs locked in.

[CrimsonCrew]

Ward is under contract for one more year. The rest of those guys are pretty replaceable IMO. Not to say they're garbage, but they are near replacement-level.

I think Aiyuk vindicated his draft position after a very rocky start. He was really producing on a run-first team where he was probably the fourth option to touch the ball. In the 13 games once he got out of the doghouse (disclaimer: I am not counting the GB game because that was such an offensive **** show, and he did have a drop on his lone target), he put up 865 yards. That's over 66 YPG, and extrapolates to 1,000+ yards over 16 games. I think he'll be just fine.

But several of the other picks stick in the craw. Banks is looking awful, particularly given that Creed Humphrey was a better fit for our team and had an awesome year. Kinlaw needs to get healthy and realize his potential. He needed development, and he's gotten little of it the past two years. Don't really know what to make of Sermon.

I agree they were lucky to get as far as they did, but the reality is that they came a few minutes away from making the SB with this roster, so by definition they're at least close to a championship roster. But I really don't want to overstate their talent. They have some glaring weaknesses they will need to address this offseason, and a lack of draft capital to do it.

If Ford retires and Jimmy is traded, what does the cap sheet look like this upcoming season? Obviously it depends on the new contacts for Bosa, Jones, Deebo. But generally speaking.

What are the real holes that need to be patched? We basically need to add a #1 corner, a safety and then possibly center and G (if Mack is gone and Banks is a bust)? After that its mostly just filling out depth.

Am I missing something else?

Using rough estimates based off Spotrac, subtracting Jimmy and Ford would have the 9ers about $34 under the cap.

A portion of that will be allocated to signing the draft class, although it won't be much considering they don't have a 1st round pick and all the other picks will be very late in each round.

Laken Tomlinson is a free agent, so you either need to extend him or find a replacement LG.
RG is a huge hole. Hopefully Banks can fill it, but color me quite skeptical.
As you mentioned C could be a hole depending on what Mack does.
They need AT LEAST 2 CB's. Not just the #1 you mentioned, but they need to replace K'Waun who is a FA. Really they need 3 CBs
What are they going to do with Mostert? Mitchell was a pleasant surprise, buts its already clear he can't stay healthy and needs his touches limited, Sermon isn't inspiring, so they need to do something at RB.
Jennings was a pleasant surprise. But they still have nothing after the top 3 receivers.
Kittle is the only TE worth mentioning.
DJ Jones is a FA, will be likely get paid by somebody. He's of high importance to the DL.
Tartt is likely gone. Hopefully Hufanga can fill his role, but that remains to be seen
Arden Key had a nice comeback year and will be looking to get paid
Al-Shaair stepped up nicely and will also be looking to get paid for the 1st time in his career
There are 6 Total Free agent DL (Jones, Key, Hurst, Willis, Street, Givens) So Depth will need to be addressed

Yeah, we don't have any big-ticket FAs, but lots of role players and quality depth. Tons of solid DL as you mention, three of five OL to close out the year (Tomlinson, Compton, and Brunskill, though the latter is a RFA for some reason), etc. That said, none of those guys except maybe Jones will command anything close to big money at their positions. Key probably leaves, Hurst might stay as his value has got to be depressed. Willis seems like the sort of guy who would want some stability and might take less to stay here. Givens is restricted.

The takeaway is that we'll probably return a roster that is at least comparable to what we had this year. But we'll need guys to step up. Maybe McKivitz goes inside to guard. Maybe Moore develops - he's also a candidate to move inside. We could really use Lenoir coming along, and there are almost always at least a handful of solid slot corners who don't get the money they're worth. We definitely need to add some players, and hopefully get something decent for Jimmy and nail our picks. But I don't expect a dramatic decline, or anything like that unless it's due to QB play.

[LightTheBeam]

What do you think Jimmy returns in a trade?

Pre-GB game, I heard some people saying hes absolutely going to command a 1st round pick. I thought that might be excessive but looking at the deals for Wentz and Darnold it doesn't seem to far fetched.