Game#69 Knicks @ Clippers 1:00pm 3/11

[esqtvd]

Marcus--at 240 lbs--got the job of banging with Randle [6'9", 250 lbs], who finished 5-24. This is why you don't want Kawhi moving to PF. Maybe RoCo could do it, but he's only 6'7", 210.

Mann had a meh game--1-for-6, 2 points, 1 reb, 3 assists--but still contributed [plus+2] and was part of that second team that turned the game around in the second half. And Ty's faith in EJ is really paying off--plus+8, 10 points in 25 minutes.

And Westbrook's 7-5-3, plus+1 in 23 minutes was just the minutes-eating we need from a PG. Once again he sat out the 4th.

agreed about not having Kawhi bang with big bruising PF. However, most teams don't have traditional bruising 4s any more. Morris served a purpose though today and can in the other rare occasions when a team has a strong 4 man

That’s why the only guys that should get 30+ minutes every single game are Kawhi and PG. I think Ty is actually getting the message though, Marcus has been sub 30 more often than not lately.

Once you do the math, it's clear Marcus is the placeholder starter. Batum has played in the 4th quarter of 95% of his games played--Marcus only 65% or so.

I was surprised to see him at the 5-minute mark in the 4th today but frankly Batum hadn't done much and Marcus actually hit a couple shots and was plus+4 in the 4th quarter.

Ty is a players' coach. He gave Wall every chance to play himself into the rotation, but he didn't. Neither has RoCo. Norman had the most disastrous start to this season in NBA history but Ty stuck with him anyway and Norman paid off. And Ty didn't give up on EJ either, who was truly as horrible as Wall his first few games.

But EJ is paying off. And let's not even do Westbrook, who everybody spat on. Ty is betting on:

EJ
Westbrook
Marcus
Norman

Each one was kicked to the curb by fans or orgs. Each one owes Coach bigtime. Let's see what happens. If I'm any one of those 4, I'm gonna bleed my guts for him.

[og15]

If we hyperbolize it, certainly Lue is like a hero for them, lol, but that’s sensationalizing. Outside of Westbrook, I wouldn’t characterize those other players as having been kicked to the curb, lol. Okay Marcus with the fans.

Fans don’t care much for Marcus, sure, but just about every team has a player the coach plays that they aren’t fans of, it’s not some special saving of that player by the coach.

EJ was trying to escape Houston for quite some time, he hasn’t been here long enough to be kicked to the curb in any meaningful way by anyone. Powell was liked in Portland, he’s had his u-ps and downs, different fans have different opinions of players all the time, there was no kicking to the curb.

I don’t think we need to sensationalize this, every coach has to do this stuff, players will have ups and downs, you judge them based on their history and large samples not their last game or last 5 games or first 10 games of the season. Doesn’t mean fans won’t do that, all teams have fans who do, every year some fans get too excited about first 10 games records too, but coaches aren’t doing anything special by not swaying with every small occurrence.

[NickP]

So EJ, Morris, Powell and Westbrook will get minutes because they'll "bleed" for the coach? Sign me up already. I'll not only bleed but gladly give up a healthy kidney if it gets me minutes.
As a coach, Lue should give minutes to players that actually win him games, not to those that bleed for him. Seriously funky narrative as always.

Baiting, please do not make posts simply to inflame other users

[esqtvd]

If we hyperbolize it, certainly Lue is like a hero for them, lol, but that’s sensationalizing. Outside of Westbrook, I wouldn’t characterize those other players as having been kicked to the curb, lol. Okay Marcus with the fans.

Fans don’t care much for Marcus, sure, but just about every team has a player the coach plays that they aren’t fans of, it’s not some special saving of that player by the coach.

EJ was trying to escape Houston for quite some time, he hasn’t been here long enough to be kicked to the curb in any meaningful way by anyone. Powell was liked in Portland, he’s had his u-ps and downs, different fans have different opinions of players all the time, there was no kicking to the curb.

I don’t think we need to sensationalize this, every coach has to do this stuff, players will have ups and downs, you judge them based on their history and large samples not their last game or last 5 games or first 10 games of the season. Doesn’t mean fans won’t do that, all teams have fans who do, every year some fans get too excited about first 10 games records too, but coaches aren’t doing anything special by not swaying with every small occurrence.

EJ and especially Norman had terrible starts here in Clipperland this year. Ty stuck with them. Unfortunately some fans don't understand why. But coaches who stand by their players do enjoy a loyalty that others don't. Vinny Del Negro comes to mind--I can't recall anyone ever saying anything nice about him. His rotation was chaotic.

If you're saying that "players' coaches" don't do any better than others, maybe you're right. But it stands to reason you will do better playing for a guy who shows confidence in you than a guy looming with the hook.

[madmaxmedia]

On this team this year it barely matters who starts, because it’s doesn’t correlate that highly with minutes or who closes games.

I think our minutes distributions have been pretty good lately. I don’t know if any playoff team had as many personnel changes as we did at ASB, a lot of moving pieces and we’ve come out of the break pretty well IMO considering 2 tough OT losses. We definitely got punched in the face but I think it we’ve come out of it well.

But a big game against GSW coming up, we’ll be rested so no excuses.

[og15]

If we hyperbolize it, certainly Lue is like a hero for them, lol, but that’s sensationalizing. Outside of Westbrook, I wouldn’t characterize those other players as having been kicked to the curb, lol. Okay Marcus with the fans.

Fans don’t care much for Marcus, sure, but just about every team has a player the coach plays that they aren’t fans of, it’s not some special saving of that player by the coach.

EJ was trying to escape Houston for quite some time, he hasn’t been here long enough to be kicked to the curb in any meaningful way by anyone. Powell was liked in Portland, he’s had his u-ps and downs, different fans have different opinions of players all the time, there was no kicking to the curb.

I don’t think we need to sensationalize this, every coach has to do this stuff, players will have ups and downs, you judge them based on their history and large samples not their last game or last 5 games or first 10 games of the season. Doesn’t mean fans won’t do that, all teams have fans who do, every year some fans get too excited about first 10 games records too, but coaches aren’t doing anything special by not swaying with every small occurrence.

EJ and especially Norman had terrible starts here in Clipperland this year. Ty stuck with them. Unfortunately some fans don't understand why. But coaches who stand by their players do enjoy a loyalty that others don't. Vinny Del Negro comes to mind--I can't recall anyone ever saying anything nice about him. His rotation was chaotic.

If you're saying that "players' coaches" don't do any better than others, maybe you're right. But it stands to reason you will do better playing for a guy who shows confidence in you than a guy looming with the hook.

Powell was coming off 166 games averaging 18/3/2 on 48/41 shooting, is 29 years old and didn't tear his achilles or something like that. I really don't think one needs to be a players coach or have any special insight to stick with him for 4 games, especially on a team that needed an additional supporting scorer. Powell was bad for 4 games. Game 5 he had 21, game 6 he had 18 pts. Games 5-10: 13/3 on 48/33. Games 11-15: 15/2 on 44/33. Games 16-20: 20/3 on 55/56.

In 20-21 with Toronto, he started the season averaging 9 ppg on 31/37 shooting for the first 7 games. Games 8-18, 18 ppg on 48/42. Nurse stuck with him not because of being a players coach, but because there's already history of his performance.

Eric Gordon came in averaging 13 ppg on 44/35 on a trash Houston squad with a lot of bal hogs. First 5 games were bad, but he was 5/12 from 3PT, and since one has to assume he didn't lose his ability from the travel from Houston to LA, the idea would be that he would not be inept inside the arc the rest of the way. Quiting on a player after 5 games (especially after your management gave up assets for them) would be quite the ridiculous thing to do. I just don't really see what being a players coach has to do with these situations. Now, if it was a situation where a guy was around for 20 games and he's shooting like 34/28 20 games in with no sign of upward progress, then that is one balsy coach to just keep sticking with them.

Btw, Beverley was playing 26.9 mpg and shooting 28/23 after 20 games with the Lakers, the next 25 games, he played 27 mpg. He shot 47/43, now Beverley of course brings value in some other areas, but he didn't even have an upward trend. If Lue had that situation with a player and stuck with them, then I could give him props, but almost every single team is sticking through someone struggling for 5-10 games, because everyone is aware that small sample size does not dictate long term performance, and past performance is what is most predictive.

Fans all over the NBA make proclamations from minimum sample sizes, those opinions should not be taken as anything more than knee jerk and I wouldn't ever use them to represent the rational, non emotion laden consensus of fans about a player.

[esqtvd]

If we hyperbolize it, certainly Lue is like a hero for them, lol, but that’s sensationalizing. Outside of Westbrook, I wouldn’t characterize those other players as having been kicked to the curb, lol. Okay Marcus with the fans.

Fans don’t care much for Marcus, sure, but just about every team has a player the coach plays that they aren’t fans of, it’s not some special saving of that player by the coach.

EJ was trying to escape Houston for quite some time, he hasn’t been here long enough to be kicked to the curb in any meaningful way by anyone. Powell was liked in Portland, he’s had his u-ps and downs, different fans have different opinions of players all the time, there was no kicking to the curb.

I don’t think we need to sensationalize this, every coach has to do this stuff, players will have ups and downs, you judge them based on their history and large samples not their last game or last 5 games or first 10 games of the season. Doesn’t mean fans won’t do that, all teams have fans who do, every year some fans get too excited about first 10 games records too, but coaches aren’t doing anything special by not swaying with every small occurrence.

EJ and especially Norman had terrible starts here in Clipperland this year. Ty stuck with them. Unfortunately some fans don't understand why. But coaches who stand by their players do enjoy a loyalty that others don't. Vinny Del Negro comes to mind--I can't recall anyone ever saying anything nice about him. His rotation was chaotic.

If you're saying that "players' coaches" don't do any better than others, maybe you're right. But it stands to reason you will do better playing for a guy who shows confidence in you than a guy looming with the hook.

Powell was coming off 166 games averaging 18/3/2 on 48/41 shooting, is 29 years old and didn't tear his achilles or something like that. I really don't think one needs to be a players coach or have any special insight to stick with him for 4 games, especially on a team that needed an additional supporting scorer. Powell was bad for 4 games. Game 5 he had 21, game 6 he had 18 pts. Games 5-10: 13/3 on 48/33. Games 11-15: 15/2 on 44/33. Games 16-20: 20/3 on 55/56.

In 20-21 with Toronto, he started the season averaging 9 ppg on 31/37 shooting for the first 7 games. Games 8-18, 18 ppg on 48/42. Nurse stuck with him not because of being a players coach, but because there's already history of his performance.

Eric Gordon came in averaging 13 ppg on 44/35 on a trash Houston squad with a lot of bal hogs. First 5 games were bad, but he was 5/12 from 3PT, and since one has to assume he didn't lose his ability from the travel from Houston to LA, the idea would be that he would not be inept inside the arc the rest of the way. Quiting on a player after 5 games (especially after your management gave up assets for them) would be quite the ridiculous thing to do. I just don't really see what being a players coach has to do with these situations. Now, if it was a situation where a guy was around for 20 games and he's shooting like 34/28 20 games in with no sign of upward progress, then that is one balsy coach to just keep sticking with them.

Btw, Beverley was playing 26.9 mpg and shooting 28/23 after 20 games with the Lakers, the next 25 games, he played 27 mpg. He shot 47/43, now Beverley of course brings value in some other areas, but he didn't even have an upward trend. If Lue had that situation with a player and stuck with them, then I could give him props, but almost every single team is sticking through someone struggling for 5-10 games, because everyone is aware that small sample size does not dictate long term performance, and past performance is what is most predictive.

Fans all over the NBA make proclamations from minimum sample sizes, those opinions should not be taken as anything more than knee jerk and I wouldn't ever use them to represent the rational, non emotion laden consensus of fans about a player.

Yes, they both had horrendous stretches at first and Ty kept feeding them minutes anyway. Powell was 10-37 with turnovers by the bushel. EJ was 7-24 and was yanked after only 7 minutes in his 5th game. Next game, Ty gave him the start and 34 minutes when Marcus had to sit out.

If you don't think this is particularly praiseworthy, that's fine. And I'm not sure Ty had the [political] luxury to yank Westbrook after an 0-5 start but he has apparently finessed that too. Westbrook is seeing fewer minutes and little in the 4th quarter but he seems to be quite happy how things are working out.

I think the coach is doing pretty damn good, and a rotation IS taking shape out of what was thin air 2 weeks ago, with everybody on board. Even T-Mann, who looked like the odd man out, is seeing 20+ mpg. Ty has coached all year on framing a playoff rotation, not coaching like every game is a Game 7.

Of course all this means nothing if we put up a stinker vs the Dubs on Wednesday...

[NickP]

Marcus--at 240 lbs--got the job of banging with Randle [6'9", 250 lbs], who finished 5-24. This is why you don't want Kawhi moving to PF. Maybe RoCo could do it, but he's only 6'7", 210.

Mann had a meh game--1-for-6, 2 points, 1 reb, 3 assists--but still contributed [plus+2] and was part of that second team that turned the game around in the second half. And Ty's faith in EJ is really paying off--plus+8, 10 points in 25 minutes.

And Westbrook's 7-5-3, plus+1 in 23 minutes was just the minutes-eating we need from a PG. Once again he sat out the 4th.

agreed about not having Kawhi bang with big bruising PF. However, most teams don't have traditional bruising 4s any more. Morris served a purpose though today and can in the other rare occasions when a team has a strong 4 man

That’s why the only guys that should get 30+ minutes every single game are Kawhi and PG. I think Ty is actually getting the message though, Marcus has been sub 30 more often than not lately.

The expectation is that Ty is actually learning from this. But we've all been fooled before. Marcus made 2 shots and threw Randle on the floor and the Morris gallery thinks he played great defense on Randle. I watched the entire game again, just to see what Morris did defensively but was surprised that it was Kawhi and PG that took turns guarding Randle.

[PeteyPablo]

There was a play in the 4th quarter where some one is shooting a free throw and Randle shoves Morris out the way as they battle for position for the rebound.

A couple of plays later Leonard clears Randle out with one arm as he is driving to the rim and gets fouled.

A few years ago Morris was seen as a enforcer as well as a offensive big / stretch 4 or small ball 5

[esqtvd]

interesting chat lol

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[madmaxmedia]

Hey, but there's one thing I think we can ALL agree on- LOL at the Mavs.

[nickhx2]

i said around the time it happened that i was shocked it happened, because i thought cuban wouldn't be stupid enough to do it

yet here we are

[Dynamix]

If sources are to be believed, our FO offered everything they could for Kyrie, so the Nets should get all the props for letting us dodge that bullet. However, if you ignore everything off the court (which I refuse to do), his fit next to Kawhi\PG\others does seem better on paper than with Luka and a very thin roster.

[MartinToVaught]

I don't think there's a team in existence that Kyrie fits with at this point. You could put that narcissist on the Dream Team and he'd find a way to make them lose to Lithuania.

[madmaxmedia]

interesting chat lol

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

I guess at this point I have a tolerate/hate relationship with Marcus. I don't think anyone in Clipperdom actually likes his game at this point (the hate part), but we have enough sample size that some of these analytics are obviously showing why he gets his minutes (the tolerate part.) I think Terance is a significantly better player but he's a wing on a team centered around 2 HOF wings, and all of the stats reflect both aspects IMO. I do think RoCo could at least be getting some of those PF minutes, but both him and Marcus each have their own weaknesses.

It would have been interesting to see how a guy like John Collins would have impacted our team. He's not an all-star and has not shot the 3 well this year, but he is a traditional big who is younger and quicker. Not sure what our targets will be in the offseason, but at the very least he might not cost us much and we will have more expirings to offer.

[madmaxmedia]

If sources are to be believed, our FO offered everything they could for Kyrie, so the Nets should get all the props for letting us dodge that bullet. However, if you ignore everything off the court (which I refuse to do), his fit next to Kawhi\PG\others does seem better on paper than with Luka and a very thin roster.

I don't think the Mavs' recent stretch is so much on Kyrie, he did help them win a couple of games without Luka. But it's more a reflection of other issues, Luka missing more games, etc. Even though Luka is good enough to carry only a decent team far into the playoffs, his various injuries seem to indicate his body isn't going to hold up well under such a high load.

[clipperlover]

If sources are to be believed, our FO offered everything they could for Kyrie, so the Nets should get all the props for letting us dodge that bullet. However, if you ignore everything off the court (which I refuse to do), his fit next to Kawhi\PG\others does seem better on paper than with Luka and a very thin roster.

I don't think the Mavs' recent stretch is so much on Kyrie, he did help them win a couple of games without Luka. But it's more a reflection of other issues, Luka missing more games, etc. Even though Luka is good enough to carry only a decent team far into the playoffs, his various injuries seem to indicate his body isn't going to hold up well under such a high load.

While Luka being out certainly is a problem, the Mavs also gave up one of their best defenders in the deal. They weren't a great defensive team before the trade and losing Finney-Smith and bringing in Kyrie doesn't improve them defensively.