Comparing the best PF's at age 24

[Quake Griffin]

This is absolutely crazy to me. You guys want too much. Now I'm reading that Jordan should be rebounding better?

Jordan & Griffin are combining to average 23.8 rebounds per game. The second highest number for teammates in the league is Drummond & Monroe at 21.7. And not only are Jordan/Griffin leading the league in rebounds by more than 2 rebounds per game, their current average of 23.8 would be the highest in the league in 19 years! That's not good enough for you guys?

I can understand saying guys like Redick, Barnes, Crawford, etc need to rebound better, but when your PF/C have one of the highest combined rebounding marks of the modern era, give them a break.

we are not saying, well at least i am not saying they are not good enough. they are good, but to borrow the words of Vin Scully, "Good is not good, when better is expected"

I believe DJ is just scratching the surface of his true potential. he can be a 7 foot Dennis Rodman.
I believe Blake still has room to grow to mature and refine his game in every way, other than dunking. he can learn a few skilled, savvy low post moves to go with currently effective moves that are more based on his raw athleticism. he can get even better at free throws, and be consistent with his jumper. he can expand his range to be a decent 3 point shooter.

most of all, i believe both can immensely improve on their box out skills as well as one on one defense.

i truly believe DJ's potential is a perennial defensive player of the year, and Blake to be a multiple MVP of this league.

Neddy - I don't disagree that they can improve. In fact, I think they both have the potential to be much better, which is SCARY. My issue is with statements like these, all which are in posts above:

his dismissal of rebounding duties makes him still much behind the greats

he's got to rebound better.
if you say he's working hard and the numbers don't show it....well work harder. do better.

I'm going to have to lean more towards the critical group in calling for better rebounding from both Jordan and Griffin.

there's nothing wrong with saying Blake needs to be in the DDs of the rebound game even though DJ is an outstanding rebounder.


WE ARENT REBOUNDING FROM THE OTHER POSITIONS!
whether you like it or not....it's either going to be an achilles heel for us, or Griffin is gonna step up and make a thing for him and DJ to own the boards, not just DJ.

this isn't some idea where I look at the game and go...oh Griff is working as hard as he can on the boards...so i can lay off.
A lot of times he's rim watching, using his natural ability to grab boards and not boxing out....the other time he's leaking out.
He's still a good rebounder doing this...but our team doesnt need another "good rebounder" paired with DeAndre given how we rebound from the other positions....WE NEED TWO GREAT REBOUNDERS!

if we had an LBJ at SF grabbing 7 boards...id lay off.
we don't.
undo ur problem with what i said before.
thank you.

[Neddy]

BTW pete, i hope you don't take things personally. we are supposed to have different opinions and it's okay to agree to disagree. i think you are a one heck of a quality poster and don't let our view taint you from keep posting here.

[okpistolpete]

BTW pete, i hope you don't take things personally. we are supposed to have different opinions and it's okay to agree to disagree. i think you are a one heck of a quality poster and don't let our view taint you from keep posting here.

ha, appreciate that, but no of course not. i think it's silly to criticize Blake/dj's rebounding, but I definitely don't take anything personally. we're rooting for the same team.

and I appreciate the compliment. I love heated discussions. what I don't care for is disrespect and general douchebaggery. from what I can tell there's none of that here.

[Neddy]

we left all the douchebags in lakers forum of the old site we came from that starts with a letter P.



all jokes aside, the reason for the civility of this site belongs to our great dear leader MKWest and his mod ship.

[mttwlsn16]

we left all the douchebags in lakers forum of the old site we came from that starts with a letter P.



all jokes aside, the reason for the civility of this site belongs to our great dear leader MKWest and his mod ship.

and me

[okpistolpete]

we left all the douchebags in lakers forum of the old site we came from that starts with a letter P.



all jokes aside, the reason for the civility of this site belongs to our great dear leader MKWest and his mod ship.

and me

classic douchebag response.




kidding of course.

[mttwlsn16]

we left all the douchebags in lakers forum of the old site we came from that starts with a letter P.



all jokes aside, the reason for the civility of this site belongs to our great dear leader MKWest and his mod ship.

and me

classic douchebag response.




kidding of course.

hey now

im #16 on the top posters list, watch yo self

[Ranma]

Neddy - I don't disagree that they can improve. In fact, I think they both have the potential to be much better, which is SCARY. My issue is with statements like these, all which are in posts above:

his dismissal of rebounding duties makes him still much behind the greats

he's got to rebound better.
if you say he's working hard and the numbers don't show it....well work harder. do better.

I'm going to have to lean more towards the critical group in calling for better rebounding from both Jordan and Griffin.

It's fair that I was one of those quoted above and I appreciate (and actually agree with) you defending both DJ & Blake since they are, after all, the two players who are really carrying the load in terms of gathering rebounds for this team, but Neddy's sentiments surprisingly echoes mine. As good as they are--in terms of season averages--they can readily get even better just by fixing their technique, which should be the easiest of factors to address. Nobody is going to out-jump either Griffin or Jordan even if Blake has relatively short arms compared to other big men.

As I mentioned before, it may be unfair to ask even more out these two but given the circumstances, it is the most logical avenue to pursue. Doc's system, the lack of consistent production from the SF position, and the absolutely critical need to limit the multiple-chance shot attempts of our opponents by securing rebounds and thus also boosting our defensive proficiency are the reasons why I'm asking so much of them.

[Chronz]

for those who want to argue that DJ's presence makes it inevitable for blake's numbers to be in a single digit, i beg the pardon and ask of you to look up the 1993 spurs team stats. Dennis Rodman was averaging monstrous 17.3 rebounds per game, but that didn't stop Robinson from getting his at nearly 11 per.

Rodman's numbers were insane. David Robinson's rebound percentage for that season was 14.8% and his per-36 number was 9.5 rebounds per game which are both lower than Blake's current season numbers. Robinson just happened to average 40.5 minutes per game. Blake would also average 11 rebounds if he played 40.5 minutes as well.

Rodman was stealing many of D-Robs rebounds those season and Im sure you're arguing that DJ does it for Blake to some degree, but its not the Rodman degree David posted those numbers alongside the best rebounder of all time on a truly dominant rebounding team with him anchoring the D. Whereas Blake plays alongside an inferior rebounder by comparison, on a team that has gotten pummeled on the defensive glass all year with him not even being an anchor. And really, when people look at rebounding, how often you help your teammates should always be considered. Guys who rarely leave their man are usually in better position, Blake is an improving defender, thats partly the reason why his defensive rebounds have diminished, hes helping more often, but there is still more he could improve on in terms of positioning.

D-Rob had already proven to anchor an elite D/rebounding team while posting higher DREB rates. I dont expect that kind of dominance from Blake, but there is still room to improve IMO.

[QRich3]

As pete says, our bad rebounding numbers, and specially Blake's (which are not even bad at all), are the way they are by design, both on offense and defense. There is not a reason in the world to criticize Blake or DJ for their rebounding, that's how Doc envisions this team, and I kind of agree with him. We might lose a game here or there because we allow a few offensive rebounds, but those are gonna be few, and meanwhile we have the best offense in the league (well not the whole season, but we've been the best in the latest months) in great part because we are all set in the opponent's court as soon as DJ's grabbing the rebound.

Neddy there's a lot of things you can ask from Blake and DJ to improve, but I don't think the ones you listed are the ones that are making us lose games. Communication on rotations and knowing where to be on hedge and recover situations are things that they're having trouble with, and that's what's making us lose games. Not rebounding, not free throw shooting and not man to man defense. Deandreis specially having issues, I feel like Blake is mastering Doc's defense a lot quicker than DJ, who is often lost or just a little bit late.

Rob Mahoney did a nice report recently on DJ's struggles on defense for SI, with a lot of youtube videos of his breakdowns on defense, and some examples of how Blake's covering his mistakes a lot of the time. It also includes some of the things he's doing great btw, I don't mean to be too hard on him.

What’s even more maddening is that Jordan isn’t at all a lost cause. He’s capable of staying down to blanket an opposing post scorer, but in other situations will bite on obvious pump fakes. He’s athletic enough to get down in a defensive stance to keep opposing guards in front of him, but careless enough to let an opposing big drive by him for an uncontested dunk. He’ll hold his ground against Roy Hibbert on the block butgive an easy angle to Andre Drummond. He nimbly darts out of the paint to take away one open shot, then proceeds to surrender wide open mid-range jumpers to any other opponent interested in taking one:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUM3Ro2dpXw[/youtube]

http://nba.si.com/2014/02/04/the-fundamentals-deandre-jordan-los-angeles-clippers/3/

[mkwest]

Rodman was stealing many of D-Robs rebounds those season and Im sure you're arguing that DJ does it for Blake to some degree, but its not the Rodman degree David posted those numbers alongside the best rebounder of all time on a truly dominant rebounding team with him anchoring the D. Whereas Blake plays alongside an inferior rebounder by comparison, on a team that has gotten pummeled on the defensive glass all year with him not even being an anchor. And really, when people look at rebounding, how often you help your teammates should always be considered. Guys who rarely leave their man are usually in better position, Blake is an improving defender, thats partly the reason why his defensive rebounds have diminished, hes helping more often, but there is still more he could improve on in terms of positioning.

D-Rob had already proven to anchor an elite D/rebounding team while posting higher DREB rates. I dont expect that kind of dominance from Blake, but there is still room to improve IMO.

I'm not even going to attempt to make a case for their defensive capabilities. Rodman and Robinson are both worlds apart from our guys in that facet of the game. It was strictly rebounding. Btw, as good as that Spurs team was at rebounding, they gave up more offensive rebounds than we do. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what they did since they lost 3-1 in the first round that year.

It's fine to believe that these guys can do better. I believe that they can become better as well, but there should be a fairness with the expectations imo. To expect Blake to average 11-12 rebounds per game in the 36 minutes that he plays while DeAndre maintains the 14 rebounds per game that he is averaging in the 36 minutes that he plays is just not all that realistic to me. I have gone through every single franchise in the history of the game and was only able to come up with 3 instances where 2 players on the same team each pulled down 17.5% of available rebounds. It hasn't been done in 28 years.

If Blake's numbers go up, that means DJ's numbers are coming down.

Since January 1st, Blake is averaging 8.9 rpg and DJ is pulling down 14.8 or 23.7 total rpg.
In the first 33 games (up to 12/30), Blake averaged 10.5 rpg and DJ 13.4 or 23.9 total rpg.

After the game against Golden State where Blake pulled down a paltry 3 rebounds to DJ's 20, he's averaged 11.45 per 36 in the 6 games since. DJ's averages have dropped to 13.03 over that same span.

Any way it's sliced, they're going to give us about 24 rebounds per game give or take a half a rebound. There's nobody else in the league doing that. I have to give them their due for that. 9.8 rebounds for an all-star PF isn't the sexiest number (and I would like to see it in double digits), but I'm not mad at it given what DJ is doing.

Does our team need to improve at rebounding? Damn straight they do. My biggest pet peeve is giving up offensive rebounds. We have 2 many key rotation players only pulling down 2 or so per game. Our 3rd leading rebounder is a guy that is only 5'7 according to Charles Barkley. There's too many instances where might have had 3 or 4 guys near a loose ball and an opposing guard swoops in and steals the rebound. It seems that the opinion here is that because most of our guys suck at rebounding that our bigs need to do even more. I think that some of our guards and people named Jared Dudley need to stop leaving it all on the bigs. If you're grabbing 2 per game, go after a 3rd. It all starts to add up after awhile.

I'm a firm believer that defense and rebounding is what is going to get you over the top in the playoffs. Can you get by without rebounding? You can, but that means you better have a very good defense and a very efficient offense. Defense has been inconsistent, but there have been numerous situations where they came through when it mattered most. Still, there's a lot of work that needs to be done before the playoffs.

[nickhx2]

BTW pete, i hope you don't take things personally. we are supposed to have different opinions and it's okay to agree to disagree. i think you are a one heck of a quality poster and don't let our view taint you from keep posting here.

ha, appreciate that, but no of course not. i think it's silly to criticize Blake/dj's rebounding, but I definitely don't take anything personally. we're rooting for the same team.

and I appreciate the compliment. I love heated discussions. what I don't care for is disrespect and general douchebaggery. from what I can tell there's none of that here.

refreshing, isn't it?

been browsing here a bit for the last couple weeks since i left the other board and keep getting surprised by the fact that people actually talk basketball around here.

[mttwlsn16]

BTW pete, i hope you don't take things personally. we are supposed to have different opinions and it's okay to agree to disagree. i think you are a one heck of a quality poster and don't let our view taint you from keep posting here.

ha, appreciate that, but no of course not. i think it's silly to criticize Blake/dj's rebounding, but I definitely don't take anything personally. we're rooting for the same team.

and I appreciate the compliment. I love heated discussions. what I don't care for is disrespect and general douchebaggery. from what I can tell there's none of that here.

refreshing, isn't it?

been browsing here a bit for the last couple weeks since i left the other board and keep getting surprised by the fact that people actually talk basketball around here.

This forum is great. I've thoroughly enjoyed my time here since I signed up after myself and a few others here got the boot from the old forum that was flooded w laker mods

Sent from my SCH-I545 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[okpistolpete]

BTW pete, i hope you don't take things personally. we are supposed to have different opinions and it's okay to agree to disagree. i think you are a one heck of a quality poster and don't let our view taint you from keep posting here.

ha, appreciate that, but no of course not. i think it's silly to criticize Blake/dj's rebounding, but I definitely don't take anything personally. we're rooting for the same team.

and I appreciate the compliment. I love heated discussions. what I don't care for is disrespect and general douchebaggery. from what I can tell there's none of that here.

refreshing, isn't it?

been browsing here a bit for the last couple weeks since i left the other board and keep getting surprised by the fact that people actually talk basketball around here.

Hey nick!! Nice. Another good poster to join in.

Nick's one of the good ones, gentlemen.

[Chronz]

I'm not even going to attempt to make a case for their defensive capabilities. Rodman and Robinson are both worlds apart from our guys in that facet of the game. It was strictly rebounding.

Thats the point of my post tho, rebounding and defense intertwine. You cannot ignore one or the other, though I admit its more important to be a great defensive team than a great rebounding team, loving the progression in that department.

Btw, as good as that Spurs team was at rebounding, they gave up more offensive rebounds than we do.

Point? Spurs were STILL an elite rebounding team vs us being a **** one.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what they did since they lost 3-1 in the first round that year.

But winning is about what you do on both ends, beyond just rebounding. We are talking about rebounding here.

It's fine to believe that these guys can do better. I believe that they can become better as well, but there should be a fairness with the expectations imo. To expect Blake to average 11-12 rebounds per game in the 36 minutes that he plays while DeAndre maintains the 14 rebounds per game that he is averaging in the 36 minutes that he plays is just not all that realistic to me. I have gone through every single franchise in the history of the game and was only able to come up with 3 instances where 2 players on the same team each pulled down 17.5% of available rebounds. It hasn't been done in 28 years.

He could start by pulling down a higher% of his available rebounds via nba.com "rebounding opportunities".

If Blake's numbers go up, that means DJ's numbers are coming down.

Since January 1st, Blake is averaging 8.9 rpg and DJ is pulling down 14.8 or 23.7 total rpg.
In the first 33 games (up to 12/30), Blake averaged 10.5 rpg and DJ 13.4 or 23.9 total rpg.

After the game against Golden State where Blake pulled down a paltry 3 rebounds to DJ's 20, he's averaged 11.45 per 36 in the 6 games since. DJ's averages have dropped to 13.03 over that same span.

Any way it's sliced, they're going to give us about 24 rebounds per game give or take a half a rebound. There's nobody else in the league doing that. I have to give them their due for that. 9.8 rebounds for an all-star PF isn't the sexiest number (and I would like to see it in double digits), but I'm not mad at it given what DJ is doing.

Whatever they need to do in order to improve the teams rebounding is all I care about. My point was that the Rodman-Robinson comp was a sound one.

[Ranma]

refreshing, isn't it?

been browsing here a bit for the last couple weeks since i left the other board and keep getting surprised by the fact that people actually talk basketball around here.

Glad to see you've found your way here, nick. Like pistol, I'm really looking forward to seeing your thoughts and insights again whenever the mood strikes. It's getting all cra-zay in this hizay. (Did I spell or even say that right?)

[og15]

The bigs need help. We have to look at defensive rebounds specifically too if that is what we are talking about, not total rebounds per game.

Remember Doc doesn't send players to the offensive glass in order for them to get back on defense. Blake has a career low offense rebound percentage, if he grabbed in the range of his first two seasons he would be averaging 10.5-10.7 RPG

Jordan is up 5% in defensive rebound percentage for his career, and 7% from last season, a pretty crazy jump. You can only be in position to grab so many rebounds, but Jordan at 9.8 defensive rebounds and Blake at 7.4 defensive rebounds is really good for your big men.

The best defensive rebounding team in the league are the Pacers, here are their big men on defense:
Hibbert: 5.6 DRB/36, 16.4%
West: 6.4 DRB/36, 18.2%

Lance Stephenson SG: 5.6 DRB/36
Paul George SF: 6.0 DRB/36

They are the best in the league because their SG and SF are elite defensive rebounders at their positions.

Charlotte is #2:
Jefferson: 8.9 DRB/36
McRoberts: 4.7 DRB/36
Bench:
Biyombo: 8.9 DRB/36
Adrien: 7.5 DRB/36

Henderson: 4.0 DRB/36
Gilchrist: 4.7 DRB/36

Our SG's are not very good rebounders for multiple reasons. Our bench bigs don't necessarily rebound well, though Hedo has been good, Hollins is a poor defensive rebounder. Our SF's when in the starting lineup don't rebound very well. It's not about DJ and Blake individually grabbing more rebounds. 0.7 more RPG from SF and 0.5 more RPG from SG and 1 more RPG from the bench that the opponent would otherwise get is basically what we are asking for right now. That one more RPG though depends on SG/SF committing maybe 5-10 more times per game to crashing the boards aggressively on defense and / or boxing out. For the bench we just need a better defensive rebounding big, lol

The difference between the Clippers on the glass and Indiana or Charlotte is about 2 defensive rebounds a game which are instead offensive rebounds. A commitment from your SG and SF and improved bench rebounding will make up 2 defensive RPG. Asking your starting bigs who are combining for 17 RPG to pick up that slack isn't fair to them and probably just won't happen because they can only cover so much ground.

[Neddy]

Neddy there's a lot of things you can ask from Blake and DJ to improve, but I don't think the ones you listed are the ones that are making us lose games. Communication on rotations and knowing where to be on hedge and recover situations are things that they're having trouble with, and that's what's making us lose games. Not rebounding, not free throw shooting and not man to man defense. Deandreis specially having issues, I feel like Blake is mastering Doc's defense a lot quicker than DJ, who is often lost or just a little bit late.

you are absolutely right. DJ's rotation has been sketchy at best but he has gotten better by a mile than say, a season or two ago? but you are right about DJ. no doubt about his shortcomings. i do worry about that about him time to time, whether or not he is smart enough on the floor (not questioning his intellect, but his basketball IQ) to see the game as it comes to him defensively. i hope he can, and i think he can. as DJ has proven so far in his young career, he appears to me as a late bloomer in just about everything that has to do with basketball. from being called a 18 going 11(or something close to that?) by his college coach and not taking simple things like benching by Vinny too well last year. Doc has made a world of difference in DJ's confidence with a game like the last one where he left DJ out there to be fouled for 3 minutes in a row. DJ came through. i think DJ will continue to come through, as long as he knows his coaches believe in him.

BTW pete, i hope you don't take things personally. we are supposed to have different opinions and it's okay to agree to disagree. i think you are a one heck of a quality poster and don't let our view taint you from keep posting here.

ha, appreciate that, but no of course not. i think it's silly to criticize Blake/dj's rebounding, but I definitely don't take anything personally. we're rooting for the same team.

and I appreciate the compliment. I love heated discussions. what I don't care for is disrespect and general douchebaggery. from what I can tell there's none of that here.

refreshing, isn't it?

been browsing here a bit for the last couple weeks since i left the other board and keep getting surprised by the fact that people actually talk basketball around here.

welcome, more the merrier and judging by the quality of posts your fellas are bringing, i have no doubt it will be a pleasure to chat basketball with ya'll.

[QRich3]

Neddy there's a lot of things you can ask from Blake and DJ to improve, but I don't think the ones you listed are the ones that are making us lose games. Communication on rotations and knowing where to be on hedge and recover situations are things that they're having trouble with, and that's what's making us lose games. Not rebounding, not free throw shooting and not man to man defense. Deandreis specially having issues, I feel like Blake is mastering Doc's defense a lot quicker than DJ, who is often lost or just a little bit late.

you are absolutely right. DJ's rotation has been sketchy at best but he has gotten better by a mile than say, a season or two ago? but you are right about DJ. no doubt about his shortcomings. i do worry about that about him time to time, whether or not he is smart enough on the floor (not questioning his intellect, but his basketball IQ) to see the game as it comes to him defensively. i hope he can, and i think he can. as DJ has proven so far in his young career, he appears to me as a late bloomer in just about everything that has to do with basketball. from being called a 18 going 11(or something close to that?) by his college coach and not taking simple things like benching by Vinny too well last year. Doc has made a world of difference in DJ's confidence with a game like the last one where he left DJ out there to be fouled for 3 minutes in a row. DJ came through. i think DJ will continue to come through, as long as he knows his coaches believe in him.

Yeah I agree, and I don't think we should be too hard or too impacient with him. He's learning and he's improving, although slowly, but he's getting there. Both our big men will be MUCH better in a couple of years. People often forget how long it took Dwight Howard to 'get it' and become a good defensive player. Chandler had the same bonehead reputation in his first 5 or 6 years in the league, as did Camby for instance. Even guys often praised for their high IQ like Noah and Marc Gasol took a few years to master how to defend in the NBA. DJ is a slow learner but a willing one, our core will be really improved in a couple of years if things keep going this way and injuries permit.

[nickhx2]

thanks for the words, guys! decided enough was enough on the scout forums so i peaced out and had been wandering ever since, like a traveler searching for an oasis. or a basketball forum. was pleasantly surprised to see you guys here. and with that i'll try to move on from derailing this topic any further