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Kawhi Leonard?

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Re: Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#21 » by TucsonClip » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:38 pm

I would absolutely trade 12, 13, and Gallo for Kawhi. 12, 13, and Tobias doesnt really make sense from our perspective.
Plus, why would I want to go to the NBA? Duke players suck in the pros.

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Re: Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#22 » by illastrate » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:40 pm

I'm not trading Tobi and the 2 1sts for a potential Kawhi rental. I actually would like to see what the players we draft evolve into.
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Re: this is now a joke 

Post#23 » by esqtvd » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:56 pm

Lwcasu wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
Ranma wrote:
Well said. I don't even know what you're discussing specifically, but anyone who continues to discount the value of the draft and is ignorant of how it fluctuates from year to year is either a simpleton incapable of seeing the big picture or backwards thinker whose mindset is stuck in an irrelevant past.


Well, that's a straw man, so this thread has gone seriously in the ditch. Nobody discounts the value of the draft. But many people hold picks inordinately sacred. I'd much rather trade one or both picks for Kawhi to keep Tobias unless I were convinced the guy I want [Mikal Bridges?] is a) going to be better than Tobias and b) going to be available when we draft.

The Spurs didn't trade George Hill for the #15 pick, they traded him for the #15 on draft night, on the clock, when Kawhi Leonard was still on the board. They regarded Hill highly and wouldn't have traded him for just "a pick" in the abstract.

"The toughest [decision] in whatever, 20, whatever years I've been coaching here as a head coach. It's not even close. We were scared to death sitting in the room. I think it was the 15th pick, if I remember, and when we got to 11, 12, 13. Danny Ferry, our CEO, and I were looking at each other saying, 'Are we really going to do this?'

"[Hill] was one of my favorite players. He was important to us, but we needed to get bigger. … So in the end, we said we're going to roll the bones and we're going to do it, but I can't tell that at that point we knew that Kawhi was going to be what he is today. That would be an exaggeration."

"We were all looking at each other like, Are we really going to do this?. We were scared s---less. We don't know this kid. He's not a shooter. He's not a scorer. He's not a perimeter player. He's a big guy who can rebound."

To hear Popovich describe Leonard as "a big guy who can rebound" further illustrates how grand Leonard's rise has become.

Leonard's transformation into a top-10 NBA talent has revitalized the Spurs.


But the Spurs did not know what they were getting and didn't expect he'd become All-NBA and MVP material. They liked Kawhi a lot, but only traded George Hill because they already had Tony Parker at PG. Likewise, the Pacers liked Kawhi a lot, but already had Paul George at SF. There was a lot of luck involved. If the Spurs didn't already have an ace PG in Parker, this deal-for-the-ages never gets done.

Romanticizing draft picks in the abstract is nonsense, as we see here, cherry-picking the few hits and ignoring the many misses.

Number 12

Year Player School/Country – Team

2017 Luke Kennard, Duke – Detroit Pistons
2016 Taurean Prince, Baylor – Utah Jazz
2015 Trey Lyles, Kentucky – Utah Jazz
2014 Dario Saric, Croatia – Orlando Magic
2013 Steven Adams, Pittsburgh – Oklahoma City Thunder
2012 Jeremy Lamb, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2011 Alec Burks, Colorado – Utah Jazz
2010 Xavier Henry, Kansas – Memphis Grizzlies


2009 Gerald Henderson, Duke – Charlotte Bobcats
2008 Jason Thompson, Rider – Sacramento Kings
2007 Thaddeus Young, Georgia Tech – New Orleans Hornets
2006 Hilton Armstrong, Connecticut – New Orleans Hornets
2005 Yaroslav Korolev, CSKA Moscow – L.A. Clippers
2004 Robert Swift, Bakersfield HS (Calif.) – Seattle Supersonics
2003 Nick Collison, Kansas – Seattle Supersonics
2002 Melvin Ely, Fresno State – L.A. Clippers
2001 Vladimir Radmanovic, Serbia & Montenegro – Seattle Supersonics
2000 Etan Thomas, Syracuse – Dallas Mavericks

__________________________________________________

Number 13

Year Player School/Country – Team

2017 Donovan Mitchell, Louisville – Denver Nuggets
2016 Georgios Papagiannis, Greece – Phoenix Suns
2015 Devin Booker, Kentucky – Phoenix Suns
2014 Zach LaVine, UCLA – Minnesota Timberwolves
2013 Kelly Olynyk, Gonzaga – Dallas Mavericks
2012 Kendall Marshall, UNC – Phoenix Suns
2011 Markieff Morris, Kansas – Phoenix Suns
2010 Ed Davis, UNC – Toronto Raptors

2009 Tyler Hansbrough, UNC – Indiana Pacers
2008 Brandon Rush, Kansas – Portland Trail Blazers
2007 Julian Wright, Kansas – New Orleans Hornets
2006 Thabo Sefolosha, Switzerland – Philadelphia 76ers
2005 Sean May, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats
2004 Sebastian Telfair, Lincoln HS (New York) – Portland Trail Blazers
2003 Marcus Banks, UNLV – Memphis Grizzlies
2002 Marcus Haislip, Tennessee – Milwaukee Bucks
2001 Richard Jefferson, Arizona – Houston Rockets
2000 Courtney Alexander, Fresno State – Orlando Magic


Who went before Kawhi that year? LOL. Kyrie at #1, Kemba at #9, Klay at #11, and the rest was varying shades of crap.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2011.html


Not only that, Jimmy Butler went at the end of the 1st and IT went at the end of the 2nd. This draft is a good example of how much the whole thing is a crapshoot.


What they don't understand is that "crapshoot" does not mean worthless. There's gold in that crapshoot. And lower picks are worth more than higher ones. A 1-in-9 chance of getting a needle-mover at 12 or 13 is better than the 1-in-20 later on.

But the point is, they're still longshots. The Spurs haven't drafted a needle-mover since, well, George Hill in 2008.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/draft.html

    2017 NBA 1 29 Derrick White University of Colorado
    2017 NBA 2 59 Jaron Blossomgame Clemson University
    2016 NBA 1 29 Dejounte Murray University of Washington
    2015 NBA 1 26 Nikola Milutinov Partizan Belgrade (Serbia)
    2015 NBA 2 55 Cady Lalanne University of Massachusetts Amherst
    2014 NBA 1 30 Kyle Anderson University of California, Los Angeles
    2014 NBA 2 58 Jordan McRae University of Tennessee
    2013 NBA 1 28 Livio Jean-Charles ASVEL Basket (France)
    2013 NBA 2 58 Deshaun Thomas Ohio State University
    2012 NBA 2 59 Marcus Denmon University of Missouri
    2011 NBA 1 29 Cory Joseph University of Texas at Austin
    2011 NBA 2 59 Adam Hanga Alba Fehérvár (Hungary)
    2010 NBA 1 20 James Anderson Oklahoma State University
    2010 NBA 2 49 Ryan Richards CB Gran Canaria (Spain)
    2009 NBA 2 37 DeJuan Blair University of Pittsburgh
    2009 NBA 2 51 Jack McClinton University of Miami
    2009 NBA 2 53 Nando de Colo Cholet Basket (France)
    2008 NBA 1 26 George Hill Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis
    2008 NBA 2 45 Goran Dragic KK Union Olimpija (Slovenia)
    2008 NBA 2 57 James Gist University of Maryland
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Re: Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#24 » by MartinToVaught » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:02 pm

Meanwhile, the Warriors, Celtics and Raptors have drafted a bunch of needle-movers since then, but that's conveniently ignored.
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Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#25 » by Quake Griffin » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:05 pm

Trading for Kawhi on draft night and having control of him for his entire career is just as good as drafting him.

Keep dropping that list though like that negates acquiring Kawhi though.


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Re: Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#26 » by esqtvd » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:35 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:Meanwhile, the Warriors, Celtics and Raptors have drafted a bunch of needle-movers since then, but that's conveniently ignored.



And you are ignoring the argument right in front of you about the Spurs, the "gold standard" of NBA organizations.

Instead, you and your pals are arguing against a straw man. Nobody's saying draft picks are worthless. The only question here is how many of them [and in what slot] an All-World player like Kawhi Leonard is worth.
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Re: Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#27 » by madmaxmedia » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:50 pm

On average, you're getting role players in the mid/late lottery. Sometimes better, sometimes worse, but that's the average. Of course this also depends on the talent in any particular draft class, as well as the teams that are drafting. With likely 2 picks in that range, I'd hope the Clippers hit on at least 1 of them who becomes a starting caliber player or better, especially with West's involvement.

But the greater uncertainty here is with Leonard, as esqtvd said we don't really know what we're trading for, much less what we're potentially giving up. If he's healthy going into next season and committed to staying beyond his current contract, that's night and day compared to the worst case scenarios, where he either leaves after next season or we extend him only to get a broken down player.

If he were healthy and wanted to play here, IMO he's easily worth our 2 1sts and some filler (but not Harris.)
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Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#28 » by Quake Griffin » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:19 pm

Imagine pointing out the Spurs’ drafting acumen over 10 years in a discussion about the value of the draft and lecturing someone on a straw man.




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Re: Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#29 » by esqtvd » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:58 pm

madmaxmedia wrote:On average, you're getting role players in the mid/late lottery. Sometimes better, sometimes worse, but that's the average. Of course this also depends on the talent in any particular draft class, as well as the teams that are drafting. With likely 2 picks in that range, I'd hope the Clippers hit on at least 1 of them who becomes a starting caliber player or better, especially with West's involvement.

But the greater uncertainty here is with Leonard, as esqtvd said we don't really know what we're trading for, much less what we're potentially giving up. If he's healthy going into next season and committed to staying beyond his current contract, that's night and day compared to the worst case scenarios, where he either leaves after next season or we extend him only to get a broken down player.

If he were healthy and wanted to play here, IMO he's easily worth our 2 1sts and some filler (but not Harris.)


Quake Griffin wrote:Imagine pointing out the Spurs’ drafting acumen over 10 years in a discussion about the value of the draft and lecturing someone on a straw man.




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Much better to advance specific fact and argument than bloviating that "some people" discount the value of the draft entirely, which nobody here is.

Neither is the subject here baseball with up to 40 draft rounds to play around with or the NFL and its 53-man rosters, whose draft is pretty solid for the first 3 rounds but total crapshoot after that. The subject is the NBA, with about 8 men in a regular rotation and only 35-40 draft spots worth anything, and only the top 10 of unquestionable value.

The history of the NBA for the past 20 years can pretty much be written with 5 names--Kobe, Duncan, LeBron, Steph, and Dwayne Wade, if you will. You work back from there.

As a 1st-team all-NBAer, Kawhi can at least be mentioned in the same breath as those names. History suggests that whoever's drafted #12 or 13 this year will not.
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Re: Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#30 » by esqtvd » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:06 pm

madmaxmedia wrote:On average, you're getting role players in the mid/late lottery. Sometimes better, sometimes worse, but that's the average. Of course this also depends on the talent in any particular draft class, as well as the teams that are drafting. With likely 2 picks in that range, I'd hope the Clippers hit on at least 1 of them who becomes a starting caliber player or better, especially with West's involvement.

But the greater uncertainty here is with Leonard, as esqtvd said we don't really know what we're trading for, much less what we're potentially giving up. If he's healthy going into next season and committed to staying beyond his current contract, that's night and day compared to the worst case scenarios, where he either leaves after next season or we extend him only to get a broken down player.

If he were healthy and wanted to play here, IMO he's easily worth our 2 1sts and some filler (but not Harris.)



Yes, I also hope to get starter or two with #12 and 13, and hope Jerry West will make that happen. [And I agree with you that hoping for one out of two is more realistic, even with Jerry West.] If I'm the Spurs and I'm going to do this deal, just like the Paul George-Kawhi Leonard deal, I wait until draft night, just until the moment that the pick(s) come up, to make sure the player(s) I want are still available. I don't just deal him for the picks beforehand.

I like Tobias too. If it's a choice between holding onto one of the picks or including him in the deal, I'll stick with the proven guy. But likewise, if I'm the Spurs, I want Tobias instead of the pick too.
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Re: Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#31 » by esqtvd » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:17 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:Trading for Kawhi on draft night and having control of him for his entire career is just as good as drafting him.

Keep dropping that list though like that negates acquiring Kawhi though.



And who did they trade to acquire Kawhi? George Hill. That's the whole point, silly. :lol:

Neither are you acknowledging that the Spurs never expected him to turn out this good. It was a courageous dice roll, but Popovich freely admits it was a dice roll. In fact, he called it a dice roll.

http://www.businessinsider.com/gregg-popovich-kawhi-leonard-trade-toughest-decision-with-spurs-2017-4

"So in the end, we said we're going to roll the bones and we're going to do it, but I can't tell that at that point we knew that Kawhi was going to be what he is today. That would be an exaggeration.

"We were all looking at each other like, Are we really going to do this?. We were scared s---less. We don't know this kid. He's not a shooter. He's not a scorer. He's not a perimeter player. He's a big guy who can rebound."



So I certainly will keep dropping this list since it proves the entire point.

[And FTR, Dragic never suited up for the Spurs. He was traded for

Malik Hairston, cash and a 2009 2nd round draft pick (DeJuan Blair was later selected).



2017 NBA 1 29 Derrick White University of Colorado
2017 NBA 2 59 Jaron Blossomgame Clemson University
2016 NBA 1 29 Dejounte Murray University of Washington
2015 NBA 1 26 Nikola Milutinov Partizan Belgrade (Serbia)
2015 NBA 2 55 Cady Lalanne University of Massachusetts Amherst
2014 NBA 1 30 Kyle Anderson University of California, Los Angeles
2014 NBA 2 58 Jordan McRae University of Tennessee
2013 NBA 1 28 Livio Jean-Charles ASVEL Basket (France)
2013 NBA 2 58 Deshaun Thomas Ohio State University
2012 NBA 2 59 Marcus Denmon University of Missouri
2011 NBA 1 29 Cory Joseph University of Texas at Austin
2011 NBA 2 59 Adam Hanga Alba Fehérvár (Hungary)
2010 NBA 1 20 James Anderson Oklahoma State University
2010 NBA 2 49 Ryan Richards CB Gran Canaria (Spain)
2009 NBA 2 37 DeJuan Blair University of Pittsburgh
2009 NBA 2 51 Jack McClinton University of Miami
2009 NBA 2 53 Nando de Colo Cholet Basket (France)
2008 NBA 1 26 George Hill Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis
2008 NBA 2 45 Goran Dragic KK Union Olimpija (Slovenia)
2008 NBA 2 57 James Gist University of Maryland
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Re: Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#32 » by esqtvd » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:26 pm

TucsonClip wrote:I would absolutely trade 12, 13, and Gallo for Kawhi. 12, 13, and Tobias doesnt really make sense from our perspective.



Don't you think Gallo has negative trade value? I'd think with 2 years and $44M left on his contract, it'd cost a pick to get rid of him.
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Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#33 » by Quake Griffin » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:53 pm

Who cares that they traded a player? You try to insult their last 10 drafts by leaving Kawhi out on a technicality...they had the foresight and valued the draft and their ability to develop more than you do. Since this scenario is the ultimate one that proves you wrong, you pretend them trading Hill (having foresight and valuing the draft) means it doesn’t count and will scream about how lucky they were instead of just giving them credit.

No one cares they didnt think he’d be that good. They drafted, developed, and conquered. That’s the name of the game. That’s why you use the draft. If only the NBA were as easy as trading for proven talent. We’d all be millionaires in a skybox.
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And no. We value the draft, not the the Spurs drafting acumen or them being a gold standard. It’s your convenient way of ducking the teams that actually have drafted well in recent years and a straw man.


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Re: Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#34 » by esqtvd » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:25 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:Who cares that they traded a player? You try to insult their last 10 drafts by leaving Kawhi out on a technicality...they had the foresight and valued the draft and their ability to develop more than you do. Since this scenario is the ultimate one that proves you wrong, you pretend them trading Hill (having foresight and valuing the draft) means it doesn’t count and will scream about how lucky they were instead of just giving them credit.

No one cares they didnt think he’d be that good. They drafted, developed, and conquered. That’s the name of the game. That’s why you use the draft. If only the NBA were as easy as trading for proven talent. We’d all be millionaires in a skybox.
_______________
And no. We value the draft, not the the Spurs drafting acumen or them being a gold standard. It’s your convenient way of ducking the teams that actually have drafted well in recent years and a straw man.



Even if your argument were valid [Kawhi could well not have been available--and shouldn't have been], they did not expect him to be this good and the rest of the Spurs' drafts in the past 10 years have amounted to little.

Those are the facts. You have no counterargument. You are cherry-picking one lucky strike out of 10 years of dry wells, and even that was only possible because they had an extra PG laying around to trade for a dice roll.

None of which has much to do with the real subject, which is about many draft picks [and in what position] is Kawhi Leonard worth. Obviously they are worth something or this discussion would not be taking place.
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Re: Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#35 » by TucsonClip » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:39 pm

esqtvd wrote:
TucsonClip wrote:I would absolutely trade 12, 13, and Gallo for Kawhi. 12, 13, and Tobias doesnt really make sense from our perspective.



Don't you think Gallo has negative trade value? I'd think with 2 years and $44M left on his contract, it'd cost a pick to get rid of him.


Personally, I dont think he has negative value, but hes a risk to acquire. I view it this way...

Look back at Paul George, Demarcus Cousins, and Jimmy Butler. They are the last three star talents to be traded with a year remaining on their contract (where Kawhi is on draft night). Here is each of the three packages.

Demarcus Cousins
Ompri Casspi

for

Buddy Hield
Tyreke Evans
Langston Galloway
1st and 2nd

Jimmy Butler
#16 (Justin Patton)

for

Zach LaVine
Kris Dunn
#7 (Lauri Markkanen)

Paul George

for

Victor Oladipo
Domantas Sabonis

I think a package built around Gallo, #12 and #13 is right in the ballpark. We might need to supplement a few smaller pieces, or take back a contract like Patty Mills and include Wes Johnson to align salaries. Although Mills is overpaid, he would provide some additional shooting off the bench to help space the floor, and would make sense if Milos opts out. That also might be the opportunity for us to ask for the Spurs 18th pick.

Point being, I think Gallo, 12 and 13 is close enough to build a package around. For those who are thinking, "lets just wait and sign him next summer." Thats not how you operate when a star is on the market. Prime example being the Lakers.
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Re: Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#36 » by esqtvd » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:48 pm

TucsonClip wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
TucsonClip wrote:I would absolutely trade 12, 13, and Gallo for Kawhi. 12, 13, and Tobias doesnt really make sense from our perspective.



Don't you think Gallo has negative trade value? I'd think with 2 years and $44M left on his contract, it'd cost a pick to get rid of him.


Personally, I dont think he has negative value, but hes a risk to acquire. I view it this way...

Look back at Paul George, Demarcus Cousins, and Jimmy Butler. They are the last three star talents to be traded with a year remaining on their contract (where Kawhi is on draft night). Here is each of the three packages.

Demarcus Cousins
Ompri Casspi

for

Buddy Hield
Tyreke Evans
Langston Galloway
1st and 2nd

Jimmy Butler
#16 (Justin Patton)

for

Zach LaVine
Kris Dunn
#7 (Lauri Markkanen)

Paul George

for

Victor Oladipo
Domantas Sabonis

I think a package built around Gallo, #12 and #13 is right in the ballpark. We might need to supplement a few smaller pieces, or take back a contract like Patty Mills and include Wes Johnson to align salaries. Although Mills is overpaid, he would provide some additional shooting off the bench to help space the floor, and would make sense if Milos opts out. That also might be the opportunity for us to ask for the Spurs 18th pick.

Point being, I think Gallo, 12 and 13 is close enough to build a package around.


Well, there is the salary-balancing problem. But in principle--in value terms alone--I'd rather have the 2 picks without Gallo than with.


For those who are thinking, "lets just wait and sign him next summer." Thats not how you operate when a star is on the market. Prime example being the Lakers.



I think the prime example is OKC and Paul George, and at least they're getting a playoff run and a puncher's chance out of it, which we wouldn't.

It could still turn out very badly though, especially in hindsight with Oladipo blossoming and PG maybe gone. And still stuck with Carmelo, LOL.
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Re: Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#37 » by TucsonClip » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:19 pm

esqtvd wrote:
Well, there is the salary-balancing problem. But in principle--in value terms alone--I'd rather have the 2 picks without Gallo than with.


Austin opting in prior to the draft, plus Boban would do it. I still think the Spurs would prefer someone like Gallo to slot in and replace some of the minutes they were expecting Kawhi to fill.

esqtvd wrote:I think the prime example is OKC and Paul George, and at least they're getting a playoff run and a puncher's chance out of it, which we wouldn't.

It could still turn out very badly though, especially in hindsight with Oladipo blossoming and PG maybe gone. And still stuck with Carmelo, LOL.


Kawhi is under contract for next year, so we would have a shot (unless I am misreading you). He has an ETO for '19-'20. I dont think Dipo makes that jump playing next to Westbrook. Additionally, my rationale was to not sit back and think we are gonna sign Kawhi or a max star next summer, especially if they are on the market via trade this summer.
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Re: Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#38 » by esqtvd » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:16 am

TucsonClip wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
Well, there is the salary-balancing problem. But in principle--in value terms alone--I'd rather have the 2 picks without Gallo than with.


Austin opting in prior to the draft, plus Boban would do it. I still think the Spurs would prefer someone like Gallo to slot in and replace some of the minutes they were expecting Kawhi to fill.


I agree but at 2 years and $44M? With strong doubts about how many minutes Gallo will manage to make it onto the court?

As for Austin LOL, if Popovich wanted me, I'd opt in and sign for almost anything they offered me in whatever extension they wanted. Who needs this crap I take in LA?


I think the prime example is OKC and Paul George, and at least they're getting a playoff run and a puncher's chance out of it, which we wouldn't.

It could still turn out very badly though, especially in hindsight with Oladipo blossoming and PG maybe gone. And still stuck with Carmelo, LOL.


Kawhi is under contract for next year, so we would have a shot (unless I am misreading you). He has an ETO for '19-'20.


Everyone's assuming he'll exercise that.

I think we're getting at the core issue. Yes, you want to be proactive. If we make the trade without an extension, we have one year to get him to fall in love with the Clippers and re-sign. We probably make the playoffs, but I just don't see us as a serious contender even with Kawhi. I don't know how much he has to fall in love with here.

By contrast, although they're a bit of a longshot, OKC is in the mix this year. And it could still all turn to dogspit. I know there are no guarantees in life, but OKC--and reputed genius GM Sam Presti--once had Westbrook, Durant and Harden. Durant has his ring, Harden might get his this year, and Westbrook may never get one--even if PG stays!


I dont think Dipo makes that jump playing next to Westbrook. Additionally, my rationale was to not sit back and think we are gonna sign Kawhi or a max star next summer, especially if they are on the market via trade this summer.



Well, you've made Tobias untouchable in this deal, yes? So are you ready to risk the highest draft picks we've had since 2010 [Aminu at #8]--two of them!--for a chance to take Kawhi Leonard to the Junior Prom and hope he'll marry us? At least OKC is taking PG to the Senior Prom [a dark horse, but still a legit contender], and they've rolled some heavy dice. We'd be rolling even heavier ones--we have no Westbrook. [We don't even have a CP or BG anymore...]
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Re: Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#39 » by TucsonClip » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:31 am

esqtvd wrote:
I agree but at 2 years and $44M? With strong doubts about how many minutes Gallo will manage to make it onto the court?


It's not ideal, but it's an attempt to maximize value. They can have it either way for all I care. I would imagine either requires taking back Mills.

Everyone's assuming he'll exercise that.

I think we're getting at the core issue. Yes, you want to be proactive. If we make the trade without an extension, we have one year to get him to fall in love with the Clippers and re-sign. We probably make the playoffs, but I just don't see us as a serious contender even with Kawhi. I don't know how much he has to fall in love with here.

By contrast, although they're a bit of a longshot, OKC is in the mix this year. And it could still all turn to dogspit. I know there are no guarantees in life, but OKC--and reputed genius GM Sam Presti--once had Westbrook, Durant and Harden. Durant has his ring, Harden might get his this year, and Westbrook may never get one--even if PG stays!


I could see him taking an extension if hes going somewhere he wants to be. Either way, we have a pretty big advantage via his bird rights on a max deal.


Well, you've made Tobias untouchable in this deal, yes? So are you ready to risk the highest draft picks we've had since 2010 [Aminu at #8]--two of them!--for a chance to take Kawhi Leonard to the Junior Prom and hope he'll marry us? At least OKC is taking PG to the Senior Prom [a dark horse, but still a legit contender], and they've rolled some heavy dice. We'd be rolling even heavier ones--we have no Westbrook. [We don't even have a CP or BG anymore...]


I haven't, but it certainly alters the deal from my perspective, including what I'm willing to send in return.

And yes, I would absolutely take that risk. The chance to acquire a top 5 player doesn't come around more than once in a decade, if not longer. If hes available and we land him, he completely reshapes the outlook of the franchise.
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Re: Kawhi Leonard? 

Post#40 » by Quake Griffin » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:37 am

esqtvd wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:Who cares that they traded a player? You try to insult their last 10 drafts by leaving Kawhi out on a technicality...they had the foresight and valued the draft and their ability to develop more than you do. Since this scenario is the ultimate one that proves you wrong, you pretend them trading Hill (having foresight and valuing the draft) means it doesn’t count and will scream about how lucky they were instead of just giving them credit.

No one cares they didnt think he’d be that good. They drafted, developed, and conquered. That’s the name of the game. That’s why you use the draft. If only the NBA were as easy as trading for proven talent. We’d all be millionaires in a skybox.
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And no. We value the draft, not the the Spurs drafting acumen or them being a gold standard. It’s your convenient way of ducking the teams that actually have drafted well in recent years and a straw man.



Even if your argument were valid [Kawhi could well not have been available--and shouldn't have been], they did not expect him to be this good and the rest of the Spurs' drafts in the past 10 years have amounted to little.

Those are the facts. You have no counterargument. You are cherry-picking one lucky strike out of 10 years of dry wells, and even that was only possible because they had an extra PG laying around to trade for a dice roll.

None of which has much to do with the real subject, which is about many draft picks [and in what position] is Kawhi Leonard worth. Obviously they are worth something or this discussion would not be taking place.

You know you have no argument when you discuss couldn’t haves and shouldn’t haves, particularly in scenarios like the draft.

Cherry picking? You literally began the cherry picking by conveniently leaving him out of their 10 year draft history knowing he was acquired on draft night and they’ve always had control of his entire NBA career. If they were so lucky to get him, you’d actually throw him in to the list because you know it wouldnt hurt your argument.

Further, none of this negates the overall point. The Spurs value and acquire cheap young talent. You just like listing the draft because it absolves you from having to deal with the Spurs acquiring Danny Green, Jonathan Simmons, and Patty Mills within the last 10 years.

I know this has nothing to do with the main point. You brought up the Spurs drafting acumen for the 1,000th time because you cant help but think that knocking the Spurs drafting acumen down means you’ve knocked down the importance of thd draft. I just have no problem telling you that you are wrong and you present crappy, logically flawed arguments disingenuously.
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To the real point (that YOU got away from)...The person who says the draft is the life blood of organization, has scored an all time player at the 13 slot IS going to shy away from dumping TWO lottery picks away for a rental because he values the draft much more than a guy like you. When he says trading for proven commodities is the lifeblood of an organization, give me a call. At least then you’ll have a leg to stand on.

The draft is an invaluable tool. The young talent on cheap contracts can’t be understated in the slightest and almost no organization in North American sports has won a ring without it. There are far more who have built through the draft and won than those who have dealt or signed proven commodities. If we are the organization turning Ty Wallace and Sin into something, we aren’t going to do something as stupid as value our lottery picks based on a list of what has happened at those slots.

You’re right. The NBA can be summed up with 5 names. Kobe. Duncan. Bron. Steph. Wade. (no Dirk??). None of which were acquired in the way you think we’d acquire Kawhi (by trading 2 1st rounders)...but one acquired at our beautiful 13 slot.

The draft wins.
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