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Basketball wise, the biggest change with CP gone is

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Enough with the Unnecessary Soap Opera 

Post#41 » by Ranma » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:59 pm

Wammy Giveaway wrote:And that quote is one of the reasons why I think Paul's reputation is in jeopardy. Rondo put it out there that Paul instigates altercations while making sure he remains untouchable. This really is going to be "Everybody Hates Chris."


Rondo calling someone else a bad teammate is laughably hypocritical and, as I pointed out, Paul was seen as the peacekeeper in the Staples Center tunnel incident. Nobody that follows the NBA is buying what Rondo is selling and yet you continue to push this false narrative even after it's clearly established that Rondo actually spit on him. There are plenty of other storylines deserving of more attention instead of giving credibility to the drivel coming out of the unsavory mouth of a known malcontent and egotistical second-rater.

It's also funny how former Clippers like Glen Davis and Ryan Hollins are defending Rondo as a teammate while calling CP3 out for not being a good one. And yet more professional players like J.J. Redick and Luc Mbah A Moute have stated that Paul is a great teammate. Which set of players would you rather have on your team, the former or the latter?


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Rondo Known Instigator 

Post#42 » by Ranma » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:20 pm

As Jackie MacMullan cited in covering Rondo many years as a Celtic, the dude is a known instigator who's comfortable causing trouble and yet we're supposed to buy into what he's saying when he's had a huge axe to grind with CP3 due to his own inferiority complex? This after he claimed to not have spat on Paul only to revise that statement to not intentionally spitting on him when video evidence showed otherwise. Seriously, the amount of time wasted on giving people known for their lack of credibility a national platform is what is wrong with this once great nation. We can't even escape it in sports. Congratulations to those who continue to want to lower the level of discourse in this current idiocracy.

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Re: Basketball wise, the biggest change with CP gone is 

Post#43 » by statsman42 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:30 am

" there are also some other common themes regarding the reputations of those ex-teammates who don't seem to like Chris Paul (Davis, Griffin) and those who do (Jordan, Redick, Mbah a Moute). Read between the lines."

Dude is being too clever here, because I don't know what I'm supposed to be seeing between those lines. Are Baby and Blake troublemakers? Are DJ, Redick, and Luc model citizens? If so, what is that supposed to say about Chris? David West also didn't like Chris, yet the whole league (by some margin required to win, anyway) voted him head of the NBAPA.

I'm not seeing a pattern here. I have my own feelings about Chris, quite conflicting ones, but that's not the point - the point is, this tweet is trying so hard to be pithy that it ends up saying nothing.
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Sound Familiar? 

Post#44 » by Ranma » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:11 pm

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Eric Pincus, BleacherReport.com (10/24/18)
"Rondo hasn't been the best teammate everywhere he's been," a former Clippers employee said.

Rondo was known for having run-ins with Doc Rivers when both were in Boston. The veteran point guard also had a difficult experience seeing eye to eye in Dallas with Mavericks coach Rick Carlisle in 2014-15.

Rockets general manager Daryl Morey gave his take with a simple tweet of a black pot and kettle:

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Davis' comments didn't bolster Rondo's case, as the former NBA forward/center has lashed out multiple times since leaving the Clippers. An executive, not with the Clippers, noted that Davis has "been saying a lot of weird [expletive] in the media lately" and that he apparently "was very difficult to deal with" in Los Angeles. One player-agent was less diplomatic, saying, "Big Baby is a world-class idiot."

So, maybe Rondo is better off on his own here.

One Eastern Conference executive noted that Rondo and Paul probably have some legitimate points to make, but in terms of Rondo's comments, "Consider the source, and in this case, especially so."

'Consider the Source': Rajon Rondo, Big Baby's Shots at Chris Paul Need Context
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Focal Point of Responsibility 

Post#45 » by Ranma » Sun Dec 2, 2018 3:47 am

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Re: Basketball wise, the biggest change with CP gone is 

Post#46 » by TrueLAfan » Sun Dec 2, 2018 4:50 pm

I think Rondo was—and is—an idiot.

But we need make sure we understand the difference between someone who “is a bad teammate” and “someone who hurts a team.” Michael Jordan was, by all accounts, a a$$hat as a teammate—he was alternately brutal and condescending to other team members. LeBron, clearly, isn’t always a wonderful guy for teammates or coaches—ask Kyrie Irving or Kevin Love or David Blatt. Kobe is self-centered, to put it charitably. He’s had problems with teammates and coaches.

This is not new. The league has always had top notch guys and/or led teams to titles that didn’t get along with many players and teammates—Elvin Hayes, Rick Barry, Oscar Robertson.

I do think Chris Paul’s reputation as a leader is somewhat overrated. I think he’s a great player and make good on-court decisions. I don’t think he always listens a whole lot to other people or puts up with a lot of bull$h*t in team meetings or practices or games. Guys like Big Baby and Hollins are okay players, but I classify them as “not smart” and “not mentally tough.” They’re the type of players who can perform at a decent level, but need a whole lot of coaching and player support to do so. I don’t think Paul is the type of guy who does that sort of thing. He knows what the players are capable of (because he’s smart), and expects his teammates to perform at their highest level, as he does. And he lets them know about mental, physical, and preparation breakdowns. (He’s very much like Oscar Robertson was, in other words.) Guys like that aren’t necessarily regarded as great teammates by all players, but they’re often pretty good leaders. If you come to a game prepared and ready to play and know your role and skills, you’ll get the most from Chris Paul and vice versa. David West, JJ Redick and PJ Tucker will benefit and be benefited from/by Paul.

That still doesn’t make him a great leader or teammate. I don’t think Paul is a leader like Magic or Erving or even Nash or Curry. He’s not an “includer.” The best leaders are like that; they get everyone to play better. (Julius Erving got as much as possible out of Daryl Dawkins, for God’s sake.) Paul has the image of being like that and I agree that it’s wrong.

So I think Paul is in a group with guys like Kobe. Kobe won titles alongside Shaq—who he feuded with—and when he had Gasol and Odom and Bynum. I don’t think Kobe helped his teammates a whole lot through team leadership; he helped his teams, though, because he was a truly great player and he played a ton of minutes at an exceptional level. If Paul could play 2800-2900 minutes at his peak level, he’d be like that. I think his peak level is like Kobe’s. But he’s played over 2500 minutes once in the last eight years and I think his game, although great, is at a slightly lower level. He’s not really a top tier player anymore—he’s in the second tier. That’s still great … but you don’t hear a whole lot about how a top 8 or 9 player in the NBA is a leader and Alpha guy on a championship team.

It’s kind of funny, because I think Paul would fit in much better with this team than with the Blake and DJ teams. For of Blake’s strengths—which are considerable—I don’t see him as a mentally tough guy either. He develops new parts of his game, to his credit, but doesn’t (or at least hasn’t) apply them consistently. I don’t think Paul ever figured out what type of player Blake was; I don’t think Blake was/is completely sure. And, like I said, Paul is not a nurturer or a hand holder. I do think that Paul loved DJ because DJ’s skills were extremely complementary to Paul’s—DJ provided rim protection and lane backup so Paul could overplay for steals (which he really really likes to do). DJ was a great rebounder. And he scored at a high percentage and had low usage, which benefited Paul’s playmaking. But I don’t think Paul made DJ better—I think Doc did that. (Sorry, Doc haters.)

Anyway—we’ve got a really tough, hard nosed team of players now that know their roles and play within their skillsets. We’re deep, which allows lots of rotations and rest. This would all be great for Paul. But he’s on a team with a kind of prime donna-ish guy in Harden, DJ part in Capela, and a guy that lacks consistency in Gordon. I don’t see that working. PJ Tucker will get better with Paul around because PJ is tough and plays within himself and takes orders. Harden and Capela and Gordon don’t really do that; I don’t see Paul helping them. So we’re left with Paul’s individual skills being the prime benefit—and they’re still really good, but slipping. If the Rockets don’t win, it won’t be Paul’s fault, and he’ll absolutely give 100% trying to get them there. That’s not the same as being a great teammate or leader, though.
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In Defense of Chris Paul 

Post#47 » by Ranma » Sun Dec 2, 2018 6:31 pm

TrueLAfan wrote:But I don’t think Paul made DJ better—I think Doc did that. (Sorry, Doc haters.)


I agree with practically everything you posted. However, I'd like to add something to the CP3-DJ dynamic that you've already illustrated. Even as a Doc hater, I think most of us recognized that one of Doc's few accomplishments during the Lob City years was getting the most out of DeAndre Jordan primarily by blowing smoke up his rear in comparing him to the likes of Bill Russell and categorizing him as part of a Big 3. Even still, DJ certainly also benefited from the CP3 bump that tends to happen with Chris Paul's teammates. It's no coincidence that Jordan shot over 70% from the field with Paul as his point guard between 2014-15 through 2016-17. Meanwhile during his first season in Dallas, DJ's FG% is actually lower than his career rate.

Also, I concur that Chris Paul's demanding demeanor can exact a toll on teammates that are less driven or even professional, but let's also not forget that Paul himself tried to build camaraderie with his new teammates upon his arrival to the Clippers, but they passed on that opportunity. For as much as Paul is responsible for the fractured relationship during the Lob City years, his Clippers teammates were at least certainly as culpable in the matter. Doc's ill-advised roster construction also didn't help in that area when you bring in the likes of over-the-hill Paul Pierce, selfish Josh Smith, and soft Byron Mullens and giving them undeserved minutes. Speaking of undeserved minutes, let's also not forget Jamal Crawford and Austin Rivers.

Chris Paul may not have been the greatest teammate, but he certainly was good enough to win with. I put the onus on his teammates for not living up to expectations or even being as invested in winning as he was. Doc, more than anyone, wasted opportunities to elevate the Clippers with CP3 doing as much as he could. Having said that, there were plenty of times that Chris Paul dominated the ball too much, but he was the team's best and most trusted ball-handler. Plus, CP3 needed to be more aggressive offensively plenty of times during his time in Lob City, but it all goes back to his Clippers teammates not executing whether it's handling the ball without turning it over or being able to create offense without him setting them up.

Paul has stated during his arrival to Houston, that he would have liked to play off-the-ball more and having Harden as a teammate allowed for that. I further agree that we could use Chris Paul on this iteration of the Clippers. Can you imagine him and Shai in the backcourt? He would certainly miss having DJ for the easy lobs, but having capable screeners and reliable shooters definitely would have freed him up with more options to take more shots as well as pass to open teammates. The depth of this team is amazing and certainly something that was missing during Doc's time as PoBO.

It's a shame that Paul's best years are behind him and that the remaining years of excellent play left in him look to be wasted in Houston moving forward since, ironically enough, the Rockets now lack the depth necessary to seriously contend. Even with CP3 on this Clippers team, we'd still need another star to put us over the top but his salary-cap hit would be an impediment towards going after the likes of Kawhi Leonard.
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Re: Basketball wise, the biggest change with CP gone is 

Post#48 » by Galloisdaman » Sun Dec 2, 2018 7:19 pm

The Clippers may have really been smart avoiding that contract. Only time will tell but how many folks here would sign CP3 to that contract today if given a chance?
My eyes glaze over when reading alternative stat (not advanced stat) narratives that go many paragraphs long. If you can not make your point in 2 paragraphs it may not be a great point. :D
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As a Fan Wearing Love Goggles 

Post#49 » by Ranma » Sun Dec 2, 2018 7:49 pm

Galloisdaman wrote:The Clippers may have really been smart avoiding that contract. Only time will tell but how many folks here would sign CP3 to that contract today if given a chance?


He was arguably my favorite active NBA player prior to joining the Clippers, so I doubt I could be unbiased about making such a decision even if I recognized how bad his contract is. At the same time, I knew he was the better option to overpay even in his advanced age over the younger Blake Griffin.

Even the Rockets only signed Paul to a 4-year contract despite having his Bird rights for a 5-year deal. Even still, paying him on average of over $41 million over the next 3 seasons after this current one for his age 34, 35 and 36 seasons (player option for 2021-22) is quite daunting, especially with TrueLAfan pointing out that he's playing reduced minutes nowadays relative to premier players.

It's definitely easier for me to say no to such a contract now since he left, but if Chris Paul hadn't departed the Clippers, would I have not let sentiment sway my decision? I have doubts. I certainly would have tried to avoid giving him a 5-year deal, so I guess I would have settled for the 4-year contract that he actually signed with the Rockets as a compromise.

So to answer your question, I could definitely see myself making the questionable decision to agree to the 4-year contract CP3 signed for just happy with not giving him 5 years if he had remained a Clipper, but I doubt I would have agreed to sign him as a free agent to the same deal given that I would have viewed us as having leverage since a full-max offer was apparently not available to him from the Rockets.
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Re: As a Fan Wearing Love Goggles 

Post#50 » by Galloisdaman » Sun Dec 2, 2018 8:15 pm

Ranma wrote:
Galloisdaman wrote:The Clippers may have really been smart avoiding that contract. Only time will tell but how many folks here would sign CP3 to that contract today if given a chance?


He was arguably my favorite active NBA player prior to joining the Clippers, so I doubt I could be unbiased about making such a decision even if I recognized how bad his contract is. At the same time, I knew he was the better option to overpay even in his advanced age over the younger Blake Griffin.

Even the Rockets only signed Paul to a 4-year contract despite having his Bird rights for a 5-year deal. Even still, paying him on average of over $41 million over the next 3 seasons after this current one for his age 34, 35 and 36 seasons (player option for 2021-22) is quite daunting, especially with TrueLAfan pointing out that he's playing reduced minutes nowadays relative to premier players.

It's definitely easier for me to say no to such a contract now since he left, but if Chris Paul hadn't departed the Clippers, would I have not let sentiment sway my decision? I have doubts. I certainly would have tried to avoid giving him a 5-year deal, so I guess I would have settled for the 4-year contract that he actually signed with the Rockets as a compromise.

So to answer your question, I could definitely see myself making the questionable decision to agree to the 4-year contract CP3 signed for just happy with not giving him 5 years if he had remained a Clipper, but I doubt I would have agreed to sign him as a free agent to the same deal given that I would have viewed us as having leverage since a full-max offer was apparently not available to him from the Rockets.


How dare you have a favorite player lol :D

I'm glad you did have a favorite player. Players are what makes the teams. If we don't root for the players what are we rooting for? A piece of laundry? It is very hard when our favorite players leave our favorite teams. I have seen it so many times. Sports are great to watch and play but a tough business. CP3 has a lot of mileage on him. That is a testament to how good a player he was his whole career. We all get older. No shame in it. I wish sports did not have salary caps. I'd like players to be judged more on who they are as players rather than what cap space they take up. Fans are forced to be part bean counters instead of just rooting for their favorite players.
My eyes glaze over when reading alternative stat (not advanced stat) narratives that go many paragraphs long. If you can not make your point in 2 paragraphs it may not be a great point. :D
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Chris Paul Backwards Bump (Beginning of the End?) 

Post#51 » by Ranma » Tue Dec 4, 2018 8:54 pm

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The Logo Turned a Bad Situation Into a Benefit 

Post#52 » by Ranma » Fri Dec 7, 2018 8:46 pm

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