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Joe Ingles destroys Blake Griffin on Twitter

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Re: Joe Ingles destroys Blake Griffin on Twitter 

Post#41 » by stitches » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:43 am

esqtvd wrote:
Quin Snyder knew Ingles' play from when they were both in Europe. If the Jazz were so onto Ingles, they, not the Clippers, would have brought him to THEIR camp.

I liked Ingles from our training camp too because he always seemed to be in the right place. But he also shot horribly and we needed to keep a guard because Farmar was gimpy. The Jazz had an extra roster slot and plenty of PT and we didn't. It's as simple as that. Doc haters try to make too much of this.

This ignores one key factor - players have a choice too. We don't know if the Jazz tried bringing him or not and he chose to go to the Clippers camp instead... also... in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. It matters that when it did matter they brought him in... and then gave him a second contract and then a third contract.
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Re: Joe Ingles destroys Blake Griffin on Twitter 

Post#42 » by esqtvd » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:06 am

stitches wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
Quin Snyder knew Ingles' play from when they were both in Europe. If the Jazz were so onto Ingles, they, not the Clippers, would have brought him to THEIR camp.

I liked Ingles from our training camp too because he always seemed to be in the right place. But he also shot horribly and we needed to keep a guard because Farmar was gimpy. The Jazz had an extra roster slot and plenty of PT and we didn't. It's as simple as that. Doc haters try to make too much of this.

This ignores one key factor - players have a choice too. We don't know if the Jazz tried bringing him or not and he chose to go to the Clippers camp instead... also... in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. It matters that when it did matter they brought him in... and then gave him a second contract and then a third contract.


not really a refutation

no we don't know if the Jazz made a run at him
but they had more room on the roster and PT to offer
and surely could have outbid the Clips, who bid, well, nothing really

in fact, if the Jazz were onto Ingles, it would have been malpractice to let the Clips get first shot at him


the Jazz took a flyer on Ingles and it paid off
there is no deeper meaning than that
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Re: Joe Ingles destroys Blake Griffin on Twitter 

Post#43 » by stitches » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:20 am

esqtvd wrote:
not really a refutation

no we don't know if the Jazz made a run at him
but they had more room on the roster and PT to offer
and surely could have outbid the Clips, who bid, well, nothing really

in fact, if the Jazz were onto Ingles, it would have been malpractice to let the Clips get first shot at him


the Jazz took a flyer on Ingles and it paid off
there is no deeper meaning than that

There are different levels to being onto a player. Noone is suggesting the Jazz knew Ingles will be what he's become. If they did they should have offered him guaranteed contract to begin with rather than a camp deal(which I assume would have been enough to get him on the Jazz rather than on the Clippers in pre-season). The point I was trying to make is that the Jazz have a pattern of trusting their long-term scouting on players like that, even though their latest play didn't suggest they should. It was Ingles several years ago, it was O'Neale last year and the newest project like that is Niang... they again gave him a guaranteed contract when few people outside of the Jazz thought they should.

The reality is those are 14-15th man on the roster to begin and if they crack the rotation it should be celebrated as a success.
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Re: Joe Ingles destroys Blake Griffin on Twitter 

Post#44 » by esqtvd » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:51 am

stitches wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
not really a refutation

no we don't know if the Jazz made a run at him
but they had more room on the roster and PT to offer
and surely could have outbid the Clips, who bid, well, nothing really

in fact, if the Jazz were onto Ingles, it would have been malpractice to let the Clips get first shot at him


the Jazz took a flyer on Ingles and it paid off
there is no deeper meaning than that

There are different levels to being onto a player. Noone is suggesting the Jazz knew Ingles will be what he's become. If they did they should have offered him guaranteed contract to begin with rather than a camp deal(which I assume would have been enough to get him on the Jazz rather than on the Clippers in pre-season). The point I was trying to make is that the Jazz have a pattern of trusting their long-term scouting on players like that, even though their latest play didn't suggest they should. It was Ingles several years ago, it was O'Neale last year and the newest project like that is Niang... they again gave him a guaranteed contract when few people outside of the Jazz thought they should.

The reality is those are 14-15th man on the roster to begin and if they crack the rotation it should be celebrated as a success.



Well we agree about Ingles being more luck than genius, and there is something to be said about end-of-the-bench types becoming rotation players.

And of course the Jazz stole Rudy Gobert at #27 for a crap pick [#42] and some cash. OTOH, they crapped out on Trey Burke at #9 in the very same draft [for which they traded the #14 and #21].

Hey, there's a lot to like in it, but the Jazz' record is kind of schizophrenic. Nothing much with their 2nd rounders, and there's a lot of busts in here with their higher picks, like Burke, Burks, Kanter, Hood, Lyles, and possibly Exum. Hayward was a hit, and of course Lyles-for-Donovan Mitchell saved that draft mistake. But they may regret trading Josh Hart for somebody named Tony Bradley, and Taurean Prince only bought a few months of George Hill, who was dumped for journeyman Jae Crowder. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I like the Jazz but after all this scouting and drafting, they're still a middling team.




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Re: Joe Ingles destroys Blake Griffin on Twitter 

Post#45 » by stitches » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:17 am

esqtvd wrote:
Well we agree about Ingles being more luck than genius, and there is something to be said about end-of-the-bench types becoming rotation players.

And of course the Jazz stole Rudy Gobert at #27 for a crap pick [#42] and some cash. OTOH, they crapped out on Trey Burke at #9 in the very same draft [for which they traded the #14 and #21].

Hey, there's a lot to like in it, but the Jazz' record is kind of schizophrenic. Nothing much with their 2nd rounders, and there's a lot of busts in here with their higher picks, like Burke, Burks, Kanter, Hood, Lyles, and possibly Exum. Hayward was a hit, and of course Lyles-for-Donovan Mitchell saved that draft mistake. But they may regret trading Josh Hart for somebody named Tony Bradley, and Taurean Prince only bought a few months of George Hill, who was dumped for journeyman Jae Crowder. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I like the Jazz but after all this scouting and drafting, they're still a middling team.

I don't get what your argument is and how did this become about the Jazz drafting success? The Jazz still have drafted well above expectation. I guess you are right about some things if you ignore ALL the surrounding context.

Burke was a bust, but Gobert has been awesome. If I gave you the no. 14, no. 21 pick, a second round pick and 3M in cash and you came away with Gobert and Burke you should be jumping with joy.

Kanter and Burks have been drafted under the previous management(and Burks career was derailed by injuries like... 3 years in a row...). Hood was drafted in the 20s and was top 3 in WS for his draft class before we traded him. He was a good player and good draft pick for us. It just ultimately didn't work out for the long term but if you get 3-4 years of this type of production from your #23 pick and then you trade him for Jae Crowder type for 2-3 more years of good cheap production, you will be doing pretty good.

Exum has had 2 serious injuries and missed 2 of his 4 years on the rookie contract and jury is still out on him. Even if he busts, it's hard to blame the management when his development was stunted this much early in his career. The Jazz seem to still believe in him. We'll see how this one goes.

The Jazz didn't trade Josh Hart for Tony Bradley. They traded 30+42 to jump up ahead of the Spurs who were rumored to be enamored by Tony Bradley. I didn't like this pick either... I guess we'll see in due time whether it was a good pick or not. Right now I'd say no... but then again... bigger picture... context - if you give me Mitchell and Bradley for Lyles, 24, 30 and 42 ... I'm taking Mitchell and Bradley every single time.

The Jazz didn't trade Taurean Prince for George Hill. They traded no.12 pick in a bad draft for George Hill in a year when we were trying to make the jump and show Hayward it was worth sticking around. George Hill was great for us when he was on the floor. He then started getting injured and the Jazz decided to part ways in the summer. In hindsight it probably wasn't a good trade, but it's absolutely understandable for a small market team that has trouble getting good players in FA.

And this is the other thing that you are missing with the "middling team" comment... The Jazz have been no. 5 seed in the West and top 5 team in the entire league by net rating and have won a playoff series 2 years in a row with a team constructed without tanking and without high profile(or even mid-profile) FA acquisitions. We cannot afford to suck year after year and then just snap our fingers and get a LeBron or Chris Paul or Jimmy Butler in free agency because we are in a big market. We don't even get a meeting with the star players. Similarly we cannot afford to trade for star players because we have to consider them rentals who will bolt the moment their contract is out.

So yeah... we have drafted our 2 big building blocks in Gobert and Mitchell. We gave Ingles and Royce their first chance and have them locked for another 2-3 years... We have a pretty good team with a ton of cap space projected for next FA. In what world you consider us "middling team" I don't know... by pretty much any measure the Jazz have been pretty good and project to be even better going forward). Middling teams are Detroit or Charlotte ...

No team is batting a thousand. Just like every other team the Jazz have their misses, bad picks, bad trades, bad contracts along with all the good they've done. That's why you need to look at it in the aggregate, the big picture. For the resources the Jazz have had and for the situation they are in(small market team, close to zero chance of big time FA), I think they've done pretty well, they've build a team based mainly around homegrown talent and they've put themselves in a great situation to be contenders if GSW slips and/or if they somehow manage to convert their capspace into a big time acquisition. I think we've never been in a better position to land a top free agent, especially if we indeed take another step forward as a team during the season. It's still a long shot but oh well... we can dream until they snap our wings again.
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Re: Joe Ingles destroys Blake Griffin on Twitter 

Post#46 » by esqtvd » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:13 am

stitches wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
Well we agree about Ingles being more luck than genius, and there is something to be said about end-of-the-bench types becoming rotation players.

And of course the Jazz stole Rudy Gobert at #27 for a crap pick [#42] and some cash. OTOH, they crapped out on Trey Burke at #9 in the very same draft [for which they traded the #14 and #21].

Hey, there's a lot to like in it, but the Jazz' record is kind of schizophrenic. Nothing much with their 2nd rounders, and there's a lot of busts in here with their higher picks, like Burke, Burks, Kanter, Hood, Lyles, and possibly Exum. Hayward was a hit, and of course Lyles-for-Donovan Mitchell saved that draft mistake. But they may regret trading Josh Hart for somebody named Tony Bradley, and Taurean Prince only bought a few months of George Hill, who was dumped for journeyman Jae Crowder. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I like the Jazz but after all this scouting and drafting, they're still a middling team.

I don't get what your argument is and how did this become about the Jazz drafting success? The Jazz still have drafted well above expectation. I guess you are right about some things if you ignore ALL the surrounding context.

Burke was a bust, but Gobert has been awesome. If I gave you the no. 14, no. 21 pick, a second round pick and 3M in cash and you came away with Gobert and Burke you should be jumping with joy.

Kanter and Burks have been drafted under the previous management(and Burks career was derailed by injuries like... 3 years in a row...). Hood was drafted in the 20s and was top 3 in WS for his draft class before we traded him. He was a good player and good draft pick for us. It just ultimately didn't work out for the long term but if you get 3-4 years of this type of production from your #23 pick and then you trade him for Jae Crowder type for 2-3 more years of good cheap production, you will be doing pretty good.

Exum has had 2 serious injuries and missed 2 of his 4 years on the rookie contract and jury is still out on him. Even if he busts, it's hard to blame the management when his development was stunted this much early in his career. The Jazz seem to still believe in him. We'll see how this one goes.

The Jazz didn't trade Josh Hart for Tony Bradley. They traded 30+42 to jump up ahead of the Spurs who were rumored to be enamored by Tony Bradley. I didn't like this pick either... I guess we'll see in due time whether it was a good pick or not. Right now I'd say no... but then again... bigger picture... context - if you give me Mitchell and Bradley for Lyles, 24, 30 and 42 ... I'm taking Mitchell and Bradley every single time.

The Jazz didn't trade Taurean Prince for George Hill. They traded no.12 pick in a bad draft for George Hill in a year when we were trying to make the jump and show Hayward it was worth sticking around. George Hill was great for us when he was on the floor. He then started getting injured and the Jazz decided to part ways in the summer. In hindsight it probably wasn't a good trade, but it's absolutely understandable for a small market team that has trouble getting good players in FA.

And this is the other thing that you are missing with the "middling team" comment... The Jazz have been no. 5 seed in the West and top 5 team in the entire league by net rating and have won a playoff series 2 years in a row with a team constructed without tanking and without high profile(or even mid-profile) FA acquisitions. We cannot afford to suck year after year and then just snap our fingers and get a LeBron or Chris Paul or Jimmy Butler in free agency because we are in a big market. We don't even get a meeting with the star players. Similarly we cannot afford to trade for star players because we have to consider them rentals who will bolt the moment their contract is out.

So yeah... we have drafted our 2 big building blocks in Gobert and Mitchell. We gave Ingles and Royce their first chance and have them locked for another 2-3 years... We have a pretty good team with a ton of cap space projected for next FA. In what world you consider us "middling team" I don't know... by pretty much any measure the Jazz have been pretty good and project to be even better going forward). Middling teams are Detroit or Charlotte ...

No team is batting a thousand. Just like every other team the Jazz have their misses, bad picks, bad trades, bad contracts along with all the good they've done. That's why you need to look at it in the aggregate, the big picture. For the resources the Jazz have had and for the situation they are in(small market team, close to zero chance of big time FA), I think they've done pretty well, they've build a team based mainly around homegrown talent and they've put themselves in a great situation to be contenders if GSW slips and/or if they somehow manage to convert their capspace into a big time acquisition. I think we've never been in a better position to land a top free agent, especially if we indeed take another step forward as a team during the season. It's still a long shot but oh well... we can dream until they snap our wings again.



Well, I'm looking at the Jazz through Clipperdom's prism. The Jazz have had a lot of high picks and not a lot to show for them; the Clips have had no high picks since Aminu in 2010 until a couple decent picks in the deep draft of 2018. The Jazz hit on Hayward, hit a longshot in Gobert, but if not for a fabulous piece of luck--hell, let's call it genius--trading for Donovan Mitchell, you're talking a pretty meh team with a lot of draft misses in the last 10 years.

[This is germane to a long-running discussion about the value of draft picks around here. The Jazz have had a lot of picks, and close inspection of the Jazz's record--who are reputed to have a good eye for talent--again proves what a crapshoot it all is.]


I didn't intend an insult with "middling," it's just that the Jazz weren't and aren't serious contenders, also partly for the reasons you give. But in a league with a lot of perennial basket cases, "middling" ain't so bad. I'll be pulling for the Jazz in most games. They play the game right.
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Re: Joe Ingles destroys Blake Griffin on Twitter 

Post#47 » by stitches » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:54 am

esqtvd wrote:
Well, I'm looking at the Jazz through Clipperdom's prism. The Jazz have had a lot of high picks and not a lot to show for them; the Clips have had no high picks since Aminu in 2010 until a couple decent picks in the deep draft of 2018. The Jazz hit on Hayward, hit a longshot in Gobert, but if not for a fabulous piece of luck--hell, let's call it genius--trading for Donovan Mitchell, you're talking a pretty meh team with a lot of draft misses in the last 10 years.


That's the thing. We haven't really had a ton of high picks. We had high pick on Exum who's been injured. No. 12 in the draft is not a high pick. About 15-20% of picks in that range become starters and about 15-20% of picks in that range become rotation players. The rest is busts or end of bench scrubs.


[This is germane to a long-running discussion about the value of draft picks around here. The Jazz have had a lot of picks, and close inspection of the Jazz's record--who are reputed to have a good eye for talent--again proves what a crapshoot it all is.]

To a huge extent the draft is a crapshoot, but there are small edges that the better managed teams have IMO.

I didn't intend an insult with "middling," it's just that the Jazz weren't and aren't serious contenders, also partly for the reasons you give. But in a league with a lot of perennial basket cases, "middling" ain't so bad. I'll be pulling for the Jazz in most games. They play the game right.

The Jazz are about as serious of a contender as anyone not named GSW or Houston(and HOU took a step back so maybe the Jazz can be more competitive even against them). The reality is until the big 4(5) in the Bay ages out or is disbanded, noone is truly a threat to them if they are healthy.
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Ongoing Feud 

Post#48 » by Ranma » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:57 pm

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