Clippers Pursuing the Logo (West Joins #ClipCityChipCity!)

[Vae Victus]

My argument is basically that Doc did well enough for the circumstances of having the toad Donald Sterling as owner, no sal cap room or decent draft picks, and that we were in 'win now' mode, trying to keep CP and BG on the farm. Doc retooled the FO from top to bottom, and even hired his own replacement, and along the way managed to talk a number of serviceable FAs to come play here for next to nothing.

I would not suggest Doc would be the choice for the team we have now, in redevelopment mode, with cap flexibility and an owner with bottomless pockets. I would try to get a Jerry West, hire a creative math wizard GM like Michael Winger, and throw a million dollars a year at some sportswriter like Lee Jenkins to be my "Director of Intangibles" or something.

I'm a details and facts type of guy and can point to a plethora of bad moves that Doc has and have a damn hard time thinking of any positive moves. Doc was PoBO for awhile, not just 1 season. In those 3 years i did not see one modicum of improvement in the moves that Doc made to help the team. It's one thing to say Doc was trash in season 1/2 but really came into his own by season 3, but no one can say that. All we saw from Doc was a series of terrible moves over 3 years that eventually led to CP3 and Blake's prime get wasted.

I mean, in year 1 of the Logo advisory era, i was like WTF when Blake got traded. But goddamnit, the Logo went and made a bunch of moves that ended up turning out to be gold. One can literally point at each move the Logo made that coulda been iffy at the time but turned out to be the exactly right move (the big ones to me were trading Blake, re-signing Avery, not trading PatBev for a pick). This is why the Logo is considered the gold standard for a GMing, he can come into any situation and make the right call the vast majority of the time.

Also the insinuate that the Logo was only able to make these strong grown ass man moves was due to Doc laying the foundation of "revamping" the FO and stuff... i find that INCREDIBLY disingenuous in the way it downplays the incoming proven successful GM while doing its best to ass cover a flaming dumpster fire outgoing PoBO who's mess was needing to be cleaned up.

I know we're never gonna convince each other that our own positions is the correct one. Oftentimes one must bring in the "mob" to render judgement, as all we can do is present our best arguments and see where the popular opinions lie. Otherwise we're just stuck talking past each other with no way to break a stalemate.

[esqtvd]

My argument is basically that Doc did well enough for the circumstances of having the toad Donald Sterling as owner, no sal cap room or decent draft picks, and that we were in 'win now' mode, trying to keep CP and BG on the farm. Doc retooled the FO from top to bottom, and even hired his own replacement, and along the way managed to talk a number of serviceable FAs to come play here for next to nothing.

I would not suggest Doc would be the choice for the team we have now, in redevelopment mode, with cap flexibility and an owner with bottomless pockets. I would try to get a Jerry West, hire a creative math wizard GM like Michael Winger, and throw a million dollars a year at some sportswriter like Lee Jenkins to be my "Director of Intangibles" or something.

I'm a details and facts type of guy and can point to a plethora of bad moves that Doc has and have a damn hard time thinking of any positive moves. Doc was PoBO for awhile, not just 1 season. In those 3 years i did not see one modicum of improvement in the moves that Doc made to help the team. It's one thing to say Doc was trash in season 1/2 but really came into his own by season 3, but no one can say that. All we saw from Doc was a series of terrible moves over 3 years that eventually led to CP3 and Blake's prime get wasted.

I mean, in year 1 of the Logo advisory era, i was like WTF when Blake got traded. But goddamnit, the Logo went and made a bunch of moves that ended up turning out to be gold. One can literally point at each move the Logo made that coulda been iffy at the time but turned out to be the exactly right move (the big ones to me were trading Blake, re-signing Avery, not trading PatBev for a pick). This is why the Logo is considered the gold standard for a GMing, he can come into any situation and make the right call the vast majority of the time.

Also the insinuate that the Logo was only able to make these strong grown ass man moves was due to Doc laying the foundation of "revamping" the FO and stuff... i find that INCREDIBLY disingenuous in the way it downplays the incoming proven successful GM while doing its best to ass cover a flaming dumpster fire outgoing PoBO who's mess was needing to be cleaned up.

I know we're never gonna convince each other that our own positions is the correct one. Oftentimes one must bring in the "mob" to render judgement, as all we can do is present our best arguments and see where the popular opinions lie. Otherwise we're just stuck talking past each other with no way to break a stalemate.

not really any specifics to argue with here
the pro-Doc argument includes getting useful vets here for cheap
and not having any decent assets to deal or draft with
or a budget
or a FO staff, etc.


and anyway these discussions are not really about 'convincing' anyone of anything, they're to explore ideas and arguments
I'm not talking past you or anyone, I'm adding to and refining my position with specifics--if it's about declaring winners and losers, I can just as easily answer that nobody's come close to refuting the thesis:


I don't know what any GM or PoBO could have done short of breaking up the team earlier
or poisoning Sterling's coffee

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[Vae Victus]

Dude that's a weak ass response. No specifics? That just shows there literally isnt any move you can point at, that shows how Doc wasnt a bad GM or got better as time went on. Then you cap it off with a "no one is playing the game im playing" cop out.

Refuting your thesis LOL. Yea, youre right, cant refute something you dont clearly layout! You win! Gratz!

Let's just say, the team is VERY FORTUNATE that the Logo came along (due to the Lakers stupidity of course). If Doc was still PoBO...................

[esqtvd]

Refuting your thesis LOL. Yea, youre right, cant refute something you dont clearly layout! You win! Gratz!
.

with Donald Sterling the owner
and with those limited resources and assets
["our front office was a joke"]

THESIS:

I don't know what any GM or PoBO could have done short of breaking up the team earlier
or poisoning Sterling's coffee


Doc had already hired Lawrence Frank to do what he couldn't
he was already easing himself out of the day-to-day

and it was Ballmer's bucks that hired a ton of new and competent people to do what Doc had to do all by himself






I yield the floor

[Vae Victus]

Yea giving up that title sure as hell hurt him i bet. Knew his son was a dead man walking when it was finally officially taken away

I hope you forgive me for being a bit skeptical on taking everything Doc Rivers says about those years at face value. He has EVERY reason to... ahem... embellish certain aspects of working under Sterling as he's no fool and knows his tenure as PoBO was very very lackluster in comparison to Olshey who proceeded and the Logo who succeeded him.

Also i remember time when he was purging out the old Olshey regime remnants to further collect power unto himself.

It's like a usurper of a kingdom bitching about the lack of magistrates and tax collectors to help run his kingdom efficiently... when he KILLED them all in the run up of taking it over.

Doc didnt have a good support structure cuz he knocked out a good chunk of it while he was consolidating power for himself. I mean hell, i wouldnt be surprised if he shanked the asst GM/PoBO and other folks a rung or two below just to clear the way for himself to take all the power. Now that last sentance is supposition, but alot of Doc's actions at the time sorta seemed quick triggered.

Which again, 3 years on the job. He muddled along and was a weak enough leader/manager that he couldnt figure out he needs to be done. Yea he can point at Sterling all he wants, but was HIS job to simply make things work. Which again, shows that Doc just didnt have the chops to be PoBO. Then he proceeded to make foolish short sighted move after bad move...

[esqtvd]

Yea giving up that title sure as hell hurt him i bet. Knew his son was a dead man walking when it was finally officially taken away

I hope you forgive me for being a bit skeptical on taking everything Doc Rivers says about those years at face value. He has EVERY reason to... ahem... embellish certain aspects of working under Sterling as he's no fool and knows his tenure as PoBO was very very lackluster in comparison to Olshey who proceeded and the Logo who succeeded him.

Also i remember time when he was purging out the old Olshey regime remnants to further collect power unto himself.

It's like a usurper of a kingdom bitching about the lack of magistrates and tax collectors to help run his kingdom efficiently... when he KILLED them all in the run up of taking it over.

Doc didnt have a good support structure cuz he knocked out a good chunk of it while he was consolidating power for himself. I mean hell, i wouldnt be surprised if he shanked the asst GM/PoBO and other folks a rung or two below just to clear the way for himself to take all the power. Now that last sentance is supposition, but alot of Doc's actions at the time sorta seemed quick triggered.

Which again, 3 years on the job. He muddled along and was a weak enough leader/manager that he couldnt figure out he needs to be done. Yea he can point at Sterling all he wants, but was HIS job to simply make things work. Which again, shows that Doc just didnt have the chops to be PoBO. Then he proceeded to make foolish short sighted move after bad move...

you're entitled to your opinions and you may even be right, but there's no proof for your rather lurid charges =:-O
and there's no way to dismiss Donald Sterling as being the major obstacle with his cheapness and creepiness


Austin played OK for us; that was always a BS charge
15 ppg, 37% from 3 his last season
and forced to play out of position about 1/4 of the time
he was never the problem


yes, Doc was hurt losing the title and probably a bit of clout
I'm not sure it was necessary to strip him
he could have been kicked upstairs with some other BS title

but he became aware early on that there was no way he could be scouting college games during the season
he had hoped to delegate that and get the executive summary at draft time
and since our picks were around 25, it wasn't that big a deal at the time


now it is