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Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated

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Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#1 » by NippySudz » Mon Dec 2, 2019 5:18 pm

Jovan buha of the athletic mentioned on his podcast that Beverley's defense has taken a step back and I agree with him. He said it's starting to look like Avery Bradley defense in the sense that it looks the part because of the ballhawking, looks as a tenacious defender but it's not.

Now I'm not saying that pat bev is as bad defensively as Bradley, I don't think buha is saying that either.

But he looks like he's playing defensive because he engaged but but then people blow pass him or he reaches in for a steal and gets a cheap foul. He's not as disciplined on defense as Kawhi and PG . Beverley plays for steals and if he can, blocks. Instead of just playing to contest.

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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#2 » by Clemenza » Mon Dec 2, 2019 5:59 pm

60% of his defense is about getting under the skin and rattling the guy he's guarding. Bumps, hard fouls, talking, barking, reach ins, etc.
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#3 » by Yogatti » Mon Dec 2, 2019 6:15 pm

As long as he's shooting 40% from 3's then I'm fine with it. He's just there to guard opponents best player and get under the skin for maybe 15 minutes before fouling out.
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#4 » by NippySudz » Mon Dec 2, 2019 6:47 pm

Clemenza wrote:60% of his defense is about getting under the skin and rattling the guy he's guarding. Bumps, hard fouls, talking, barking, reach ins, etc.
Just wish he would be smart about it. About two games ago, forgot who was the opponent, he stripped tje ball, ball was loose but the opponent managed to grab it while on the ground.

Pat Beverley has three fouls. He goes over the top of the guy and tries to yank the ball away from him. Offensive foul. Bev picks up his fourth. Kawhi and someone else was back. All he had to do was pressure the guy to make a turnover. He's on the ground or time the opportunity to get a jump all instead of reaching over his back while he's in the ground.

That's a problem with emotional players, that emotion can be their fuel but it can also be their kryptonite.

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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#5 » by NippySudz » Mon Dec 2, 2019 6:50 pm

Yogatti wrote:As long as he's shooting 40% from 3's then I'm fine with it. He's just there to guard opponents best player and get under the skin for maybe 15 minutes before fouling out.
To be honest, a traditional point guard would be better in the lineup than patbev. Pat bev could come off the bench but let's say even if they had a George hill, the offense would move so fluidly . It's a fair trade off.

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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#6 » by Yogatti » Mon Dec 2, 2019 6:57 pm

NippySudz wrote:
Yogatti wrote:As long as he's shooting 40% from 3's then I'm fine with it. He's just there to guard opponents best player and get under the skin for maybe 15 minutes before fouling out.
To be honest, a traditional point guard would be better in the lineup than patbev. Pat bev could come off the bench but let's say even if they had a George hill, the offense would move so fluidly . It's a fair trade off.

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I agree as well. Paul George and Kawhi Leonard are not playermakers, they would rather spend most of their energy scoring the ball so that's why a traditional PG in the starting line-up would make them much better. Landry Shamet used to play point guard in college didn't he? Maybe he could be that type of player
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#7 » by Young Sterling » Mon Dec 2, 2019 7:58 pm

Pat Bev saves his best defense for when it matters. Marquee games and Playoffs. You're talking about his regular season defense. I would rather he preserve himself defensively right now because he's so important in the long run. Our team is so scary it's completely unnecessary for our players to be going all out on that end, otherwise they'll get hurt (See Rodney McGruder and Jamychal Green. Totally AVOIDABLE and the result of going overkill on the hustle).

The same way PG and Kawhi aren't going all out offensively (and defensively) to preserve themselves, Pat's doing the same thing. He knows what he's capable, and so do we. Sometimes we forget in the regular season though.
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#8 » by NippySudz » Mon Dec 2, 2019 8:08 pm

Young Sterling wrote:Pat Bev saves his best defense for when it matters. Marquee games and Playoffs. You're talking about his regular season defense. I would rather he preserve himself defensively right now because he's so important in the long run. Our team is so scary it's completely unnecessary for our players to be going all out on that end, otherwise they'll get hurt (See Rodney McGruder and Jamychal Green. Totally AVOIDABLE and the result of going overkill on the hustle).

The same way PG and Kawhi aren't going all out offensively (and defensively) to preserve themselves, Pat's doing the same thing. He knows what he's capable, and so do we. Sometimes we forget in the regular season though.
Pat himself says he plays every game tje season whether it's preseason, regular season or playoffs and I'm inclined to believe him. He was the only dude playing defense in the preseason.

I'm not saying his defense is complete trash. It isn't. It's probably still an an all NBA defense level but I think it's starting to become overrated. His defense shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Kawhi and PG.

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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#9 » by esqtvd » Mon Dec 2, 2019 9:57 pm

Yes, it seems Beverley's getting into foul trouble too early and too often. And Doc benched him briefly last year for gambling too much and not staying within the team concept.

https://news.tunf.com/doc-rivers-and-patrick-beverleys-differences-in-clippers-dictate-a-new-direction-for-the-club/340108


But let's not bury him just yet.


The stats proved Russell Westbrook's criticism of Patrick Beverley wrong

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/11/rockets-clippers-russell-westbrook-patrick-beverley-stats



But Doc said something the other day that Kawhi and PG will be the ones put on the other teams' stars once the playoffs come around. Doc is saving some surprises for April, which is very cool. In the meantime I agree with Yogatti that he needs to keep his shooting up. I don't think we can carry him without him spacing the floor.
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#10 » by Young Sterling » Tue Dec 3, 2019 1:26 am

NippySudz wrote:
Young Sterling wrote:Pat Bev saves his best defense for when it matters. Marquee games and Playoffs. You're talking about his regular season defense. I would rather he preserve himself defensively right now because he's so important in the long run. Our team is so scary it's completely unnecessary for our players to be going all out on that end, otherwise they'll get hurt (See Rodney McGruder and Jamychal Green. Totally AVOIDABLE and the result of going overkill on the hustle).

The same way PG and Kawhi aren't going all out offensively (and defensively) to preserve themselves, Pat's doing the same thing. He knows what he's capable, and so do we. Sometimes we forget in the regular season though.
Pat himself says he plays every game tje season whether it's preseason, regular season or playoffs and I'm inclined to believe him. He was the only dude playing defense in the preseason.

I'm not saying his defense is complete trash. It isn't. It's probably still an an all NBA defense level but I think it's starting to become overrated. His defense shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Kawhi and PG.

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Believe nothing that you hear, and only half the things you see. He has to talk like that since he's a competitor and an entertainer. But you definitely see his intensity less in the regular season than in Playoffs, where he unleashes Playoff Pat. But I know what you mean though, those unnecessary fouls always have me cringe a little lol
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#11 » by clipperlover » Tue Dec 3, 2019 1:31 am

PB can gamble on steals and fouls because he knows what he has backing him up. He knows that if he gets in foul trouble, the impact is that Lou comes in sooner. I have to believe it is PB's job to be as aggressive as possible each minute he is on the court. If he generates steals and easy fast break opportunities, then he is doing his job. The numbers seem to point to that also:

PB is averaging half a foul per game more (3.8) than his average over his prior six seasons as a starter (3.3) while playing around the same amount of minutes per game (29.6 prior 6 years, 29.8 this season).
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#12 » by nickhx2 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 6:32 am

really not liking him on defense this season. the team doesn't need him to gamble and look like a donkey on that side of the ball. they just need him to play straight up.
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#13 » by NippySudz » Tue Dec 3, 2019 6:37 am

esqtvd wrote:Yes, it seems Beverley's getting into foul trouble too early and too often. And Doc benched him briefly last year for gambling too much and not staying within the team concept.

https://news.tunf.com/doc-rivers-and-patrick-beverleys-differences-in-clippers-dictate-a-new-direction-for-the-club/340108


But let's not bury him just yet.


The stats proved Russell Westbrook's criticism of Patrick Beverley wrong

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/11/rockets-clippers-russell-westbrook-patrick-beverley-stats



But Doc said something the other day that Kawhi and PG will be the ones put on the other teams' stars once the playoffs come around. Doc is saving some surprises for April, which is very cool. In the meantime I agree with Yogatti that he needs to keep his shooting up. I don't think we can carry him without him spacing the floor.
I still think he's a good defender but he gambles a lot which negates his defense. Can't defend when you're sitting on the bench with 3 quick unnecessary fouls

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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#14 » by Clemenza » Tue Dec 3, 2019 6:49 am

Yogatti wrote:
NippySudz wrote:
Yogatti wrote:As long as he's shooting 40% from 3's then I'm fine with it. He's just there to guard opponents best player and get under the skin for maybe 15 minutes before fouling out.
To be honest, a traditional point guard would be better in the lineup than patbev. Pat bev could come off the bench but let's say even if they had a George hill, the offense would move so fluidly . It's a fair trade off.

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I agree as well. Paul George and Kawhi Leonard are not playermakers, they would rather spend most of their energy scoring the ball so that's why a traditional PG in the starting line-up would make them much better. Landry Shamet used to play point guard in college didn't he? Maybe he could be that type of player

Shamet doesn't have any handles. He can't really create his own shot or break down a defender off the dribble and dish it off to a teammate. He's a really good catch n shoot guy as of right now. I'd roll with JRob at point before Shamet
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#15 » by esqtvd » Tue Dec 3, 2019 7:08 am

Clemenza wrote:
Yogatti wrote:
NippySudz wrote:To be honest, a traditional point guard would be better in the lineup than patbev. Pat bev could come off the bench but let's say even if they had a George hill, the offense would move so fluidly . It's a fair trade off.

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I agree as well. Paul George and Kawhi Leonard are not playermakers, they would rather spend most of their energy scoring the ball so that's why a traditional PG in the starting line-up would make them much better. Landry Shamet used to play point guard in college didn't he? Maybe he could be that type of player

Shamet doesn't have any handles. He can't really create his own shot or break down a defender off the dribble and dish it off to a teammate. He's a really good catch n shoot guy as of right now. I'd roll with JRob at point before Shamet


Clemenza--I happen to agree with all this except the last sentence. I don't think Shamet's a PG either, no matter how he dabbled with it in college. But Robinson? Doc's giving him minutes to showcase him as tradebait. Harkless's expiring and Robinson can fetch a useful but overpaid playoff veteran in the $16 million range.
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#16 » by QRich3 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 10:54 am

His defense has always been a little bit like that, a lot of noise and bark, and not always as much bite as you'd expect. But he's still a very good defender, if not elite with the top top guys, just a tier below them. Nothing to do with Avery Bradley, he's a lot better than him.

But I don't even think he's been any worse this year than previous ones. +/- numbers have him as one of the best defenders at his position. The Clippers defense is a couple points-per-100-possessions better when he's on as well. Play-by-play stats like PIPM have him in the top 10 defensive players in the whole league, and as the most impactful defensive guard this year so far, with some distance over guys like Kris Dunn, Simmons, Rubio or Bledsoe.

He might not be the one-on-one defender he once was, but he's a ball hawk, rarely misses a rotation, and more than anything, he's a beast of a defensive rebounder. He's not the top tier elite defender many people peg him for, but let's not go too far the other way, he's still a really good defender
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#17 » by Clemenza » Tue Dec 3, 2019 4:12 pm

esqtvd wrote:
Clemenza wrote:
Yogatti wrote:
I agree as well. Paul George and Kawhi Leonard are not playermakers, they would rather spend most of their energy scoring the ball so that's why a traditional PG in the starting line-up would make them much better. Landry Shamet used to play point guard in college didn't he? Maybe he could be that type of player

Shamet doesn't have any handles. He can't really create his own shot or break down a defender off the dribble and dish it off to a teammate. He's a really good catch n shoot guy as of right now. I'd roll with JRob at point before Shamet


Clemenza--I happen to agree with all this except the last sentence. I don't think Shamet's a PG either, no matter how he dabbled with it in college. But Robinson? Doc's giving him minutes to showcase him as tradebait. Harkless's expiring and Robinson can fetch a useful but overpaid playoff veteran in the $16 million range.

No matter what you think of Robinson his handles are still better than Shamet's and can run point better than him. That's the only point I'm making. Too me he's playing better and doesn't look shook or lost out there as of late. Would like to see him knock down a few more jumpers but he doesn't look shakey anymore. I get that he could be trade-bait or whatever but that's a different topic
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#18 » by MartinToVaught » Tue Dec 3, 2019 4:25 pm

My only big issues with Pat so far are the dumb undisciplined fouls he's been getting and the flopping. Other than that, no complaints.
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#19 » by Quake Griffin » Tue Dec 3, 2019 5:29 pm

Never bought into the hype or the ra-ra.
It will get old if he's really not doing the job.

I was just fine with CP3's "quiet" lock down ball pressure, rotations, and close outs from a defensive perspective.
Clever reactions to aggressive situations

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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#20 » by NippySudz » Tue Dec 3, 2019 9:37 pm

QRich3 wrote:His defense has always been a little bit like that, a lot of noise and bark, and not always as much bite as you'd expect. But he's still a very good defender, if not elite with the top top guys, just a tier below them. Nothing to do with Avery Bradley, he's a lot better than him.

But I don't even think he's been any worse this year than previous ones. +/- numbers have him as one of the best defenders at his position. The Clippers defense is a couple points-per-100-possessions better when he's on as well. Play-by-play stats like PIPM have him in the top 10 defensive players in the whole league, and as the most impactful defensive guard this year so far, with some distance over guys like Kris Dunn, Simmons, Rubio or Bledsoe.

He might not be the one-on-one defender he once was, but he's a ball hawk, rarely misses a rotation, and more than anything, he's a beast of a defensive rebounder. He's not the top tier elite defender many people peg him for, but let's not go too far the other way, he's still a really good defender
Can't play defense when you're fouled out or out significant minutes because you picked up too many early fouls.

I still think he's a good defender. Just ovverrated. The media talks about him as if he's first team all defense and dpoy candidate.

He's a good defensive player but if he was more disciplined he'd be an actual dpoy candidate and first team NBA defense.

If the clippers actually had any PG that could orchrestrate the offense at an NBA competent level, patbev would be coming off the bench.

Not saying that to hate. Just stating. Not saying the clippers can't win with him as their starter. They definitely can.

But a playmaker would make the offense zoom and the defense wouldn't take as much as a significant hit imo

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