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Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated

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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#21 » by 50CalClips » Tue Dec 3, 2019 10:58 pm

**I found how to embed tables**

According to Basketball-Reference, Pat Beverley is (on track to) having the best season of his career in "DEFENSIVE RATING"

Code: Select all

                                   
Season      Age  Tm Pos   G  GS DRtg
2019-20      31 LAC  PG  19  19  103
2012-13      24 HOU  PG  41   0  105
2014-15      26 HOU  PG  56  55  106
2016-17      28 HOU  SG  67  67  108
2013-14      25 HOU  PG  56  55  108
2017-18      29 LAC  SG  11  11  110
2015-16      27 HOU  PG  71  63  110
2018-19      30 LAC  PG  78  49  111
Career                  399 319  108


Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 12/3/2019.
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#22 » by 50CalClips » Tue Dec 3, 2019 11:22 pm

So far in 2019-20, Beverly is also on track to shatter his career high in "DEFENSIVE BOX Plus/Minus" according to Basketball-Reference.

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Season      Age  Tm  Lg Pos   G DBPM
2019-20      31 LAC NBA  PG  19  3.6
2016-17      28 HOU NBA  SG  67  1.5
2012-13      24 HOU NBA  PG  41  1.4
2018-19      30 LAC NBA  PG  78  1.2
2013-14      25 HOU NBA  PG  56  0.6
2017-18      29 LAC NBA  SG  11  0.4
2014-15      26 HOU NBA  PG  56  0.3
2015-16      27 HOU NBA  PG  71 -0.3
Career                  NBA 399  0.9


Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 12/3/2019.
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#23 » by NippySudz » Tue Dec 3, 2019 11:23 pm

50CalClips wrote:**HOW DO YOU EMBED TABLES?**

According to Basketball-Reference, Pat Beverley is (on track to) having the best season of his career in "DEFENSIVE RATING"

http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/4C8Jq

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/beverpa01.html#per_poss::31
That's not the argument that's being made. What does that even mean? Replace Pat bev with Kyle kuzma in your sentence, does that mean Kyle kuzma is first team all defense just because he's having the best defense of his career?

No.

The argument being made is patbev defense is overrated. The argument is not patbev is a sorry defender. I'm rating him compared to the companies he's mentioned with. When people talk about defense.

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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#24 » by esqtvd » Tue Dec 3, 2019 11:23 pm

50CalClips wrote:**HOW DO YOU EMBED TABLES?**

According to Basketball-Reference, Pat Beverley is (on track to) having the best season of his career in "DEFENSIVE RATING"


I dunno but with the worst ORtg of his career, Pat's in the red at minus-2

G GS ORtg DRtg
19 19 101 103



Fortunately, acc to the NBA site, he's in the black


GP OFFRTG DEFRTG NETRTG
19 107.7 101.4 +6.3


https://stats.nba.com/player/201976/



Basketball Reference is really iffy sometimes with anything but the basic stuff
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#25 » by 50CalClips » Tue Dec 3, 2019 11:40 pm

NippySudz wrote:
50CalClips wrote:According to Basketball-Reference, Pat Beverley is (on track to) having the best season of his career in "DEFENSIVE RATING"
That's not the argument that's being made. What does that even mean? Replace Pat bev with Kyle kuzma in your sentence, does that mean Kyle kuzma is first team all defense just because he's having the best defense of his career?

No.

The argument being made is patbev defense is overrated. The argument is not patbev is a sorry defender. I'm rating him compared to the companies he's mentioned with. When people talk about defense.

Kuzma? What.
Kuzma has the WORST DefRtg on his team (108). Pat Bev's DefRtg is 103, up there with Paul George (103) and LeBron (102).

And the premise of your/Jovan's arguement is that Pat Bev's DEF is not as good as before, as in previous years... But the BBall-Reference figures say different, as well.

Code: Select all

                                     
Rk                     Age  G GS DRtg
1        Kawhi Leonard  28 15 15  100
2          Ivica Zubac  22 21 19  101
3          Paul George  29 10 10  103
4       JaMychal Green  29 21  0  103
5     Patrick Beverley  31 19 19  103
6     Maurice Harkless  26 21 11  104
7     Montrezl Harrell  26 21  2  104
8    Mfiondu Kabengele  22  5  0  106
9         Terance Mann  23 16  3  106
10     Jerome Robinson  22 16  0  106
11    Johnathan Motley  24  2  0  107
12   Patrick Patterson  30 19 11  109
13     Rodney McGruder  28 15  2  109
14        Lou Williams  33 21  3  110
15       Landry Shamet  22 10 10  111
16      Derrick Walton  24  5  0  114


Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 12/3/2019.

Code: Select all

                                           
Rk                            Age  G GS DRtg
1                JaVale McGee  32 20 20   97
2               Anthony Davis  26 19 19   98
3               Dwight Howard  34 20  0  100
4                LeBron James  35 20 20  102
5        Kostas Antetokounmpo  22  2  0  103
6                 Alex Caruso  25 18  0  104
7                 Danny Green  32 20 20  104
8                Jared Dudley  34 12  0  105
9                 Rajon Rondo  33 10  0  105
10              Avery Bradley  29 10 10  106
11               Zach Norvell  22  2  0  107
12   Kentavious Caldwell-Pope  26 20 10  107
13               Troy Daniels  28 15  0  108
14                 Quinn Cook  26 17  0  108
15                 Kyle Kuzma  24 16  1  108


Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 12/3/2019.
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#26 » by NippySudz » Tue Dec 3, 2019 11:44 pm

50CalClips wrote:
NippySudz wrote:
50CalClips wrote:According to Basketball-Reference, Pat Beverley is (on track to) having the best season of his career in "DEFENSIVE RATING"
That's not the argument that's being made. What does that even mean? Replace Pat bev with Kyle kuzma in your sentence, does that mean Kyle kuzma is first team all defense just because he's having the best defense of his career?

No.

The argument being made is patbev defense is overrated. The argument is not patbev is a sorry defender. I'm rating him compared to the companies he's mentioned with. When people talk about defense.

Kuzma? What.
Kuzma has the WORST DefRtg on his team (108). Pat Bev's DefRtg is 103, up there with Paul George (103) and LeBron (102).

And the premise of your/Jovan's arguement is that Pat Bev's DEF is not as good as before, as in previous years... But the BBall-Reference figures say different, as well.

Code: Select all

                                     
Rk                     Age  G GS DRtg
1        Kawhi Leonard  28 15 15  100
2          Ivica Zubac  22 21 19  101
3          Paul George  29 10 10  103
4       JaMychal Green  29 21  0  103
5     Patrick Beverley  31 19 19  103
6     Maurice Harkless  26 21 11  104
7     Montrezl Harrell  26 21  2  104
8    Mfiondu Kabengele  22  5  0  106
9         Terance Mann  23 16  3  106
10     Jerome Robinson  22 16  0  106
11    Johnathan Motley  24  2  0  107
12   Patrick Patterson  30 19 11  109
13     Rodney McGruder  28 15  2  109
14        Lou Williams  33 21  3  110
15       Landry Shamet  22 10 10  111
16      Derrick Walton  24  5  0  114


Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 12/3/2019.

Code: Select all

                                           
Rk                            Age  G GS DRtg
1                JaVale McGee  32 20 20   97
2               Anthony Davis  26 19 19   98
3               Dwight Howard  34 20  0  100
4                LeBron James  35 20 20  102
5        Kostas Antetokounmpo  22  2  0  103
6                 Alex Caruso  25 18  0  104
7                 Danny Green  32 20 20  104
8                Jared Dudley  34 12  0  105
9                 Rajon Rondo  33 10  0  105
10              Avery Bradley  29 10 10  106
11               Zach Norvell  22  2  0  107
12   Kentavious Caldwell-Pope  26 20 10  107
13               Troy Daniels  28 15  0  108
14                 Quinn Cook  26 17  0  108
15                 Kyle Kuzma  24 16  1  108


Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 12/3/2019.
Strawman. I never said anything about previous yrs. Jovan has said he's taking a step back.

That's not to say his stance or my stance are saying he's a bad defender. My stance is saying his defense is overrated to the people he's compared to.

He's also not as disciplined so in a way his defense negates what he's trying to do when he plays emotionally. Can't play defense when you pick up early fouls.

Just because he's playing his best doesn't mean he's in the same breath as those two.

For the record I used kuzma as an example to show that's not what's being argued

Overated =/= trash.
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#27 » by NippySudz » Wed Dec 4, 2019 12:05 am

On the 538 defender rating, kawhi leads the board.

Look at the company pat is in

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-nba-player-ratings/



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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#28 » by 50CalClips » Wed Dec 4, 2019 1:08 am

NippySudz wrote:On the 538 defender rating, kawhi leads the board.

Look at the company pat is in

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-nba-player-ratings/


Yeah...
And Pat Beverley has the 5th best Defender RAPTOR Rating in the NBA among "Point Guards" according to 5-38.

And here's their Defensive "Box Score"...
BOX SCORE RAPTOR (select players for comparison)
6.8 - Rudy Gorbert (#1)
5.9 - Montrezl (#2)
5.6 - Clint Capela (#3t)
5.6 - Kawhi (#3t)
5.6 - Matisse Thybulle (#3t)
3.3 - Kyle Lowry (PG)
3.2 - Beverley (PG)
2.7 - Giannis (DEFENDER)
2.7 - Marucs Smart (DEFENDER)
2.2 - Jrue Holiday (PG)
2.0 - Ivica Zubac (CLIPPER)
0.8 - Paul George (CLIPPER)
0.8 - LeBron James (PG)
0.0 - Mo Harkless (CLIPPER)
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#29 » by esqtvd » Wed Dec 4, 2019 1:16 am

NippySudz wrote:On the 538 defender rating, kawhi leads the board.

Look at the company pat is in

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-nba-player-ratings/




What's interesting with this rating system is that Trezz is top 4 in defense, just behind Gobert. Nobody EVER talks about Trezz as a top defender. [Kawhi is more or less #1 here. Beverley is around 30th.]
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#30 » by 50CalClips » Wed Dec 4, 2019 1:42 am

Five-38.com...

WAR Rating:
5.6 - James Harden (1st)
4.4 - Giannis Ant (2nd)
4.3 - Luka Doncic (3rd)
4.2 - LeBron James (4th)
3.4 - Montrezl (5th)
2.9 - Kawhi
1.7 - Marucs Smart
1.3 - Kyle Lowry
1.2 - Beverley
1.1 - George
1.0 - Lou Will
0.8 - Zubac
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#31 » by NippySudz » Wed Dec 4, 2019 4:38 am

50CalClips wrote:Five-38.com...

WAR Rating:
5.6 - James Harden (1st)
4.4 - Giannis Ant (2nd)
4.3 - Luka Doncic (3rd)
4.2 - LeBron James (4th)
3.4 - Montrezl (5th)
2.9 - Kawhi
1.7 - Marucs Smart
1.3 - Kyle Lowry
1.2 - Beverley
1.1 - George
1.0 - Lou Will
0.8 - Zubac
You're making my point for me.

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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#32 » by QRich3 » Wed Dec 4, 2019 9:32 am

Most of those b-ball ref stats such as BPM, DWS, DRtg, etc. are just boxscore stats, so they are mostly different ways of saying his defensive rebounding, and his steal and block % are good. Which is usually good for defense, but far from telling you definitively if he's playing well or not (undisciplined defenders that hurt his team, like Westbrook, tend to lead these). RAPTOR is a stat that uses opponent FG% as its main clutch, and for me saying the guy with the best opponent FG% is the best defender is like saying Rudy Gobert is the best shooter in the league because he leads the league in FG%. But like I said in my previous post, +/- stats and play-by-play stats have Bev near the top as well, and the team's defensive numbers are better when he's on the floor.

So, while I respect Jovan's opinion a lot usually, I have to disagree with him here, I don't think Pat is playing any worse defense than he used to, in fact this might be one of his best years, maybe a bit behind his later Rockets seasons. The fact that he's less disciplined and gambles more is by design, since we have great wing defenders now, he can afford to gamble for steals and still be covered when it goes sideways.

Mostly, I agree that he's overrated by some people that put him in the DPOY race and stuff like that, but he's still a really good defender, if not all-defense worthy, not that far from it. You can like or dislike his demeanor or his antics, but the guy is solid.
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#33 » by madmaxmedia » Wed Dec 4, 2019 5:34 pm

esqtvd wrote:
Clemenza wrote:
Yogatti wrote:
I agree as well. Paul George and Kawhi Leonard are not playermakers, they would rather spend most of their energy scoring the ball so that's why a traditional PG in the starting line-up would make them much better. Landry Shamet used to play point guard in college didn't he? Maybe he could be that type of player

Shamet doesn't have any handles. He can't really create his own shot or break down a defender off the dribble and dish it off to a teammate. He's a really good catch n shoot guy as of right now. I'd roll with JRob at point before Shamet


Clemenza--I happen to agree with all this except the last sentence. I don't think Shamet's a PG either, no matter how he dabbled with it in college. But Robinson? Doc's giving him minutes to showcase him as tradebait. Harkless's expiring and Robinson can fetch a useful but overpaid playoff veteran in the $16 million range.


Didn't he more than just 'dabble' at PG, I thought he was the starting PG in college? In any case I agree he's not ready to play significant minutes at PG for us.

I also agree they will quite possibly move Jerome later this year, not to get rid of him but hopefully as a trade piece of some value to solidify the team.

Also, as long as he hits 3's at a decent clip and keeps the team fired up, I'm happy with Bev's usage.
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#34 » by 50CalClips » Wed Dec 4, 2019 9:50 pm

NippySudz wrote:
50CalClips wrote:Five-38.com...

WAR Rating:
5.6 - James Harden (1st)
4.4 - Giannis Ant (2nd)
4.3 - Luka Doncic (3rd)
4.2 - LeBron James (4th)
3.4 - Montrezl (5th)
2.9 - Kawhi
1.7 - Marucs Smart
1.3 - Kyle Lowry
1.2 - Beverley
1.1 - George
1.0 - Lou Will
0.8 - Zubac
You're making my point for me.

Consider that their "WAR Rating" is an overall rating, not just Defense -- that's to begin with. Also then consider that Pat Bev is 3rd HIGHEST on the Clippers behind only Montrezl and Kawhi.

Did you see the other Ratings, the Defense-specific ratings, on my other post?
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#35 » by 50CalClips » Wed Dec 4, 2019 10:02 pm

QRich3 wrote:Most of those b-ball ref stats such as BPM, DWS, DRtg, etc. are just boxscore stats, so they are mostly different ways of saying his defensive rebounding, and his steal and block % are good. Which is usually good for defense, but far from telling you definitively if he's playing well or not (undisciplined defenders that hurt his team, like Westbrook, tend to lead these). RAPTOR is a stat that uses opponent FG% as its main clutch, and for me saying the guy with the best opponent FG% is the best defender is like saying Rudy Gobert is the best shooter in the league because he leads the league in FG%. But like I said in my previous post, +/- stats and play-by-play stats have Bev near the top as well, and the team's defensive numbers are better when he's on the floor.

So, while I respect Jovan's opinion a lot usually, I have to disagree with him here, I don't think Pat is playing any worse defense than he used to, in fact this might be one of his best years, maybe a bit behind his later Rockets seasons. The fact that he's less disciplined and gambles more is by design, since we have great wing defenders now, he can afford to gamble for steals and still be covered when it goes sideways.

Mostly, I agree that he's overrated by some people that put him in the DPOY race and stuff like that, but he's still a really good defender, if not all-defense worthy, not that far from it. You can like or dislike his demeanor or his antics, but the guy is solid.


Pat Beverley shows well in just about any approach you take in evaluating his Defense.

Beverley over does things at time, sure... gets a foul or two on high-risk plays (if you will)... but that's something you can live with.

Montrezl in his own way (and DeAndre Jordan uses to do this too), over does things too. On Blocked Shots, how often do we see Montrezl (and DJ) swat a shot off into the stands... rather than using better judgement and choose to control the block, gather it or tap it to a teammate (at least be mindful of 'saving' the block/steal for his team).

Matter of fact, Montrezl's proclivities bother me more than Beverley's, in that regard.
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#36 » by 50CalClips » Wed Dec 4, 2019 10:27 pm

RAPTOR DEFENSIVE RATING - UPDATED DEC. 4, 2019, AT 7:15 AM

Point Guards
1t - Pat Beverley (3.6)
1t - Aaron Holiday (3.6)
1t - Ryan Arcidiacono (3.6)
4 - Patty Mills (3.2)
5 - Jalen Brunson (3.1)

Point Guards/Shooting Guards
1 - Donte DiVincenzo (5.3)
2 - Alex Caruso (5.0)

Select Players Considered "Good Defenders"
1 - Rudy Gorbert (6.5)
2 - Kawhi (6.3)
3t - Montrezl (5.3)
5t - Jimmy Butler (5.1)
?? - Giannis Ant (3.8)
?? - OG Anunoby (3.7)
?? - Pat Beverley (3.6)
?? - Andre Drummond (3.6)
?? - Danny Green (2.3)
?? - PJ Tucker (2.3)
?? - Marcus Smart (2.2)
?? - Paul George (0.8)
?? - Pascal Siakam (0.8)
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#37 » by NippySudz » Wed Dec 4, 2019 10:52 pm

50CalClips wrote:
NippySudz wrote:
50CalClips wrote:Five-38.com...

WAR Rating:
5.6 - James Harden (1st)
4.4 - Giannis Ant (2nd)
4.3 - Luka Doncic (3rd)
4.2 - LeBron James (4th)
3.4 - Montrezl (5th)
2.9 - Kawhi
1.7 - Marucs Smart
1.3 - Kyle Lowry
1.2 - Beverley
1.1 - George
1.0 - Lou Will
0.8 - Zubac
You're making my point for me.

Consider that their "WAR Rating" is an overall rating, not just Defense -- that's to begin with. Also then consider that Pat Bev is 3rd HIGHEST on the Clippers behind only Montrezl and Kawhi.

Did you see the other Ratings, the Defense-specific ratings, on my other post?

Yes, I understand how hierachy works on the team. You and I are no in no disagreement there.
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Re: Patrick Beverley's defense is starting to look overrated 

Post#38 » by esqtvd » Thu Dec 5, 2019 2:09 am

NippySudz wrote:
50CalClips wrote:
NippySudz wrote:You're making my point for me.

Consider that their "WAR Rating" is an overall rating, not just Defense -- that's to begin with. Also then consider that Pat Bev is 3rd HIGHEST on the Clippers behind only Montrezl and Kawhi.

Did you see the other Ratings, the Defense-specific ratings, on my other post?

Yes, I understand how hierachy works on the team. You and I are no in no disagreement there.




NB: Wins Above Replacement is also a cumulative rating--quantity as much as quality. You have to get your games and minutes in, at a rate above your minimally talented NBA theoretical replacement.

Everybody starts the season at 0.0.

PG's is low, but it's amazing he's even moved the meter in his mere handful of games. By contrast, although his PER is sky-high, Zubac has moved the meter about the same after playing in every game but in limited minutes and with more limited contributions.



An untold story so far--THE untold story?--is that while some of our would-be coaches here decry Zubac not getting more minutes :wink:, instead Doc is letting Harrell spread his wings and Trezz is going from supersub bully to a real NBA force. Trezz is racking up not just quality but quantity, going from our 7th man who feasted on the opps' 2nd units to carrying the team on many nights.



[I almost started a new thread for this, because Trezz's story really does deserve one.]

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