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Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January

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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#21 » by esqtvd » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:28 am

NippySudz wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
NippySudz wrote:
You just dogged jmyke and mcgruder. So there's that. It's okay to be critical dude ..saying Lou played bad defense and you saw it first hand isn't a knock on his offensive abilities. It just means he needs to be used different.

And jamyke cannot guard quicker agile 4s. He's alright against trees but not against people that can move east to west.

Mcgruder is not an NBA player. There's nothing he does well. Nothing.



My problem with J-Myke is inconsistency, not his ability. McGruder, probably the opposite. [McGruder's always crap, LOL.]

My larger point is that because of injuries, Lou has to play more minutes and do things past his optimum, specifically manning the point. For this, I go easier on him. Those defensive lapses the other night were inexcusable, though. Whether they were due to fatigue or mental laziness, I trust they will be addressed.


As for the Trezz/Planet Zubac conundrum, we can say that Doc has been creeping up Zu's minutes whenever possible, by trying to extend his shifts at the beginning of the 1st and 3rd quarters. Getting Zu to the 4- or 3-minute mark instead of just the 6:00 mark is usually a sign he's playing well and we're winning.

Unfortunately, J-Myke has not earned ANY minutes at the 5 to give Trezz a little breather in the 4th. We hope that maybe Morris can, or at least that Morris at the 4 alongside Trezz can solve those doldrums at the beginning of the 4th when Kawhi is getting HIS breather.

I can't blame Trezz for his bad ratings and plus/minuses anytime he's out there dragging around stiffs like McGruder and J-Myke, and then compounding the problem with Lou's bad defense and G Leaguers playing NBA minutes. Those numbers Russo posted are alarming, and Trezz is definitely struggling/slumping, but pointing a finger at him isn't the same as putting your finger on the problem.

Plus, if getting Bev back and playing MM at either the 4 or the 5 can't help, I dunno what they hell we're gonna do. :o
I see your point but I disagree. You can't get on jamyke but Lou and trezz been playing like crap for a month and a half and somewhat excuse that

They both get a ton of credit as the bench unit. So when **** goes bad, they gonna get a lot of the attention. We need those guys to be well.

They are keys to this team winning a Championship

And dude you've been watching Lou will for a long time brother. He's easy to backdoor. He ballwatches a lot. I can find plays earlier in this season of him doing the exact same thing. La clippers film posted about it early in the season. That's him.



Yes, Lou is Lou. But the solution isn't to just point fingers, to bench him [for McGruder LOL?], the answer is to cover for him. But you're not going to do that with G Leaguers, and increasingly not with J-Myke, who is not only sucking, but unlike Lou and Trezz has NEVER done much for us and has earned no benefit of the doubt.

There were 10-12 minutes Lou played vs the Sixers that he wouldn't have had to if Bev were available. I prefer to put my finger on it there. Because we'd rather put our hopes on Bev than J-Myke, eh?
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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#22 » by NippySudz » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:31 am

esqtvd wrote:
NippySudz wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
My problem with J-Myke is inconsistency, not his ability. McGruder, probably the opposite. [McGruder's always crap, LOL.]

My larger point is that because of injuries, Lou has to play more minutes and do things past his optimum, specifically manning the point. For this, I go easier on him. Those defensive lapses the other night were inexcusable, though. Whether they were due to fatigue or mental laziness, I trust they will be addressed.


As for the Trezz/Planet Zubac conundrum, we can say that Doc has been creeping up Zu's minutes whenever possible, by trying to extend his shifts at the beginning of the 1st and 3rd quarters. Getting Zu to the 4- or 3-minute mark instead of just the 6:00 mark is usually a sign he's playing well and we're winning.

Unfortunately, J-Myke has not earned ANY minutes at the 5 to give Trezz a little breather in the 4th. We hope that maybe Morris can, or at least that Morris at the 4 alongside Trezz can solve those doldrums at the beginning of the 4th when Kawhi is getting HIS breather.

I can't blame Trezz for his bad ratings and plus/minuses anytime he's out there dragging around stiffs like McGruder and J-Myke, and then compounding the problem with Lou's bad defense and G Leaguers playing NBA minutes. Those numbers Russo posted are alarming, and Trezz is definitely struggling/slumping, but pointing a finger at him isn't the same as putting your finger on the problem.

Plus, if getting Bev back and playing MM at either the 4 or the 5 can't help, I dunno what they hell we're gonna do. :o
I see your point but I disagree. You can't get on jamyke but Lou and trezz been playing like crap for a month and a half and somewhat excuse that

They both get a ton of credit as the bench unit. So when **** goes bad, they gonna get a lot of the attention. We need those guys to be well.

They are keys to this team winning a Championship

And dude you've been watching Lou will for a long time brother. He's easy to backdoor. He ballwatches a lot. I can find plays earlier in this season of him doing the exact same thing. La clippers film posted about it early in the season. That's him.



Yes, Lou is Lou. But the solution isn't to just point fingers, to bench him [for McGruder LOL?], the answer is to cover for him. But you're not going to do that with G Leaguers, and increasingly not with J-Myke, who is not only sucking, but unlike Lou and Trezz has NEVER done much for us and has earned no benefit of the doubt.

There were 10-12 minutes Lou played vs the Sixers that he wouldn't have had to if Bev were available. I prefer to put my finger on it there. Because we'd rather put our hopes on Bev than J-Myke, eh?
I was talking more so long term and in certain situations. Lou still avg~30 even with patbev here.

Limiting his mins is not a scapegoat idea. It's a legitimate suggestion based on his production. I'm not trolling when I say it.

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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#23 » by esqtvd » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:47 am

NippySudz wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
NippySudz wrote:I see your point but I disagree. You can't get on jamyke but Lou and trezz been playing like crap for a month and a half and somewhat excuse that

They both get a ton of credit as the bench unit. So when **** goes bad, they gonna get a lot of the attention. We need those guys to be well.

They are keys to this team winning a Championship

And dude you've been watching Lou will for a long time brother. He's easy to backdoor. He ballwatches a lot. I can find plays earlier in this season of him doing the exact same thing. La clippers film posted about it early in the season. That's him.



Yes, Lou is Lou. But the solution isn't to just point fingers, to bench him [for McGruder LOL?], the answer is to cover for him. But you're not going to do that with G Leaguers, and increasingly not with J-Myke, who is not only sucking, but unlike Lou and Trezz has NEVER done much for us and has earned no benefit of the doubt.

There were 10-12 minutes Lou played vs the Sixers that he wouldn't have had to if Bev were available. I prefer to put my finger on it there. Because we'd rather put our hopes on Bev than J-Myke, eh?
I was talking more so long term and in certain situations. Lou still avg~30 even with patbev here.

Limiting his mins is not a scapegoat idea. It's a legitimate suggestion based on his production. I'm not trolling when I say it.




at this point I think you're agreeing


Well, I'm not gonna dog a player for not being able to do more than they're capable of. You're not going to get Lou Williams' best by making him your starting PG and playing him 36 minutes. I'm agreeing with those who want his minutes cut to say, 24, but hey, he's playing minutes the team needs. The alternative is McGruder. Or worse.



we have been in a minutes crisis all season and Lou has come through

soon we'll be at full strength at last
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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#24 » by QRich3 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:46 am

Chemistry issues because of guys having to diminish their roles was one of the talking points in the offseason after the news of adding Kawhi and George. It hasn't happened much yet, but it will have to happen some time for the benefit of the team. As most say, Lou shouldn't be out there in crunch time unless it's a defense for offense substitution, and he's not gonna like it when it happens game after game. Trez probably shouldn't in many games either, specially now that we have Morris and J-Myke who both can play small ball C in some match ups. He's not gonna like it either.

So far they've been navigating it ok, but when the games that matter start, it's gonna be much more critical.
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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#25 » by NippySudz » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:35 pm

esqtvd wrote:
NippySudz wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
Yes, Lou is Lou. But the solution isn't to just point fingers, to bench him [for McGruder LOL?], the answer is to cover for him. But you're not going to do that with G Leaguers, and increasingly not with J-Myke, who is not only sucking, but unlike Lou and Trezz has NEVER done much for us and has earned no benefit of the doubt.

There were 10-12 minutes Lou played vs the Sixers that he wouldn't have had to if Bev were available. I prefer to put my finger on it there. Because we'd rather put our hopes on Bev than J-Myke, eh?
I was talking more so long term and in certain situations. Lou still avg~30 even with patbev here.

Limiting his mins is not a scapegoat idea. It's a legitimate suggestion based on his production. I'm not trolling when I say it.




at this point I think you're agreeing


Well, I'm not gonna dog a player for not being able to do more than they're capable of. You're not going to get Lou Williams' best by making him your starting PG and playing him 36 minutes. I'm agreeing with those who want his minutes cut to say, 24, but hey, he's playing minutes the team needs. The alternative is McGruder. Or worse.



we have been in a minutes crisis all season and Lou has come through

soon we'll be at full strength at last
Eh, partially

I don't agree we can't criticise players and "cut them some slack" for some players but not for others. I disagree with that. You're policing who fans can criticise. It's not scapegoating to say that x player needs to play a certain role to maximize our chances of winning a championship. It's not scapegoating to ask our bench to step up when others are out. Plenty benches around the league are motivated to win games when their best player or key guy is out. I gotta cut Lou slack for playing 29mins and not producing? Please.

And if people are emotionally upset at a player, sometimes it's irrational but sometimes it's just they have expectations of that player and they're not living up to those expectations.

Going negative for a month is not living up to those expectations. Gotta do better. I still believe in them to help the clips win. They just need to sacrifice in order to win.

Going into the season, there was talk about there's gonna be sacrifice. Those two have to do it. I just saw mgee get benched because Dwight had the favourable matchup. Rondo was benched last night in favor of Caruso and the team lived with the results. They did the right thing because it was the favorable matchup

There's going to be times in the regular season and playoffs that's gonna happen. There's going to be times where it needs to happen.

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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#26 » by NippySudz » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:37 pm

QRich3 wrote:Chemistry issues because of guys having to diminish their roles was one of the talking points in the offseason after the news of adding Kawhi and George. It hasn't happened much yet, but it will have to happen some time for the benefit of the team. As most say, Lou shouldn't be out there in crunch time unless it's a defense for offense substitution, and he's not gonna like it when it happens game after game. Trez probably shouldn't in many games either, specially now that we have Morris and J-Myke who both can play small ball C in some match ups. He's not gonna like it either.

So far they've been navigating it ok, but when the games that matter start, it's gonna be much more critical.
Agreed. I wrote something similiar before I read your comments well said

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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#27 » by QRich3 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:50 pm

Yeh I was trying to piggyback from your comments Nippy, just couldn't be arsed to scroll up and search where it was to quote it :)
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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#28 » by esqtvd » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:50 pm

NippySudz wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
NippySudz wrote:I was talking more so long term and in certain situations. Lou still avg~30 even with patbev here.

Limiting his mins is not a scapegoat idea. It's a legitimate suggestion based on his production. I'm not trolling when I say it.




at this point I think you're agreeing


Well, I'm not gonna dog a player for not being able to do more than they're capable of. You're not going to get Lou Williams' best by making him your starting PG and playing him 36 minutes. I'm agreeing with those who want his minutes cut to say, 24, but hey, he's playing minutes the team needs. The alternative is McGruder. Or worse.



we have been in a minutes crisis all season and Lou has come through

soon we'll be at full strength at last
Eh, partially

I don't agree we can't criticise players and "cut them some slack" for some players but not for others. I disagree with that. You're policing who fans can criticise. It's not scapegoating to say that x player needs to play a certain role to maximize our chances of winning a championship. It's not scapegoating to ask our bench to step up when others are out. Plenty benches around the league are motivated to win games when their best player or key guy is out. I gotta cut Lou slack for playing 29mins and not producing? Please.

And if people are emotionally upset at a player, sometimes it's irrational but sometimes it's just they have expectations of that player and they're not living up to those expectations.





People can whine all they want, true. But when guys are stepping up because of injuries and trying to do more than they're really capable of, it's silly. It's turning players who deserve credit into scapegoats.

The one part of the equation that's being missed is that Joe may be inadequate to the task, but that doesn't mean Jim wouldn't be even worse.
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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#29 » by NippySudz » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:25 pm

esqtvd wrote:
NippySudz wrote:
esqtvd wrote:

at this point I think you're agreeing





we have been in a minutes crisis all season and Lou has come through

soon we'll be at full strength at last
Eh, partially

I don't agree we can't criticise players and "cut them some slack" for some players but not for others. I disagree with that. You're policing who fans can criticise. It's not scapegoating to say that x player needs to play a certain role to maximize our chances of winning a championship. It's not scapegoating to ask our bench to step up when others are out. Plenty benches around the league are motivated to win games when their best player or key guy is out. I gotta cut Lou slack for playing 29mins and not producing? Please.

And if people are emotionally upset at a player, sometimes it's irrational but sometimes it's just they have expectations of that player and they're not living up to those expectations.





People can whine all they want, true. But when guys are stepping up because of injuries and trying to do more than they're really capable of, it's silly. It's turning players who deserve credit into scapegoats.

The one part of the equation that's being missed is that Joe may be inadequate to the task, but that doesn't mean Jim wouldn't be even worse.


Come, playoffs no one will accept those answers.

Look at kuzma. Laker fans made every excuse for him possible. He didn't have a training camp, new coach, finding his place with ad and LeBron

As the playoffs near, suddenly all those excuses are left in the rear view. Because in the playoffs, there's no excuses

And sorry I have faith that Lou Williams and trez can be better than net negatives for a month a half

You say things like everyone has a higher net rating with kawhi on the floor, this is true.. but what's interesting is kawhi has a higher net rating with them both off the floor with other teammates.

They'll get better. They have to if we want to win but it's okay to complain.

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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#30 » by esqtvd » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:32 pm

NippySudz wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
NippySudz wrote:Eh, partially

I don't agree we can't criticise players and "cut them some slack" for some players but not for others. I disagree with that. You're policing who fans can criticise. It's not scapegoating to say that x player needs to play a certain role to maximize our chances of winning a championship. It's not scapegoating to ask our bench to step up when others are out. Plenty benches around the league are motivated to win games when their best player or key guy is out. I gotta cut Lou slack for playing 29mins and not producing? Please.

And if people are emotionally upset at a player, sometimes it's irrational but sometimes it's just they have expectations of that player and they're not living up to those expectations.





People can whine all they want, true. But when guys are stepping up because of injuries and trying to do more than they're really capable of, it's silly. It's turning players who deserve credit into scapegoats.

The one part of the equation that's being missed is that Joe may be inadequate to the task, but that doesn't mean Jim wouldn't be even worse.


Come, playoffs no one will accept those answers.

Look at kuzma. Laker fans made every excuse for him possible. He didn't have a training camp, new coach, finding his place with ad and LeBron

As the playoffs near, suddenly all those excuses are left in the rear view. Because in the playoffs, there's no excuses

And sorry I have faith that Lou Williams and trez can be better than net negatives for a month a half

You say things like everyone has a higher net rating with kawhi on the floor, this is true.. but what's interesting is kawhi has a higher net rating with them both off the floor with other teammates.

They'll get better. They have to if we want to win but it's okay to complain.




Complain if you want. My argument is that for Lou and Trezz to get better, others have to step up and take the load off them. That's the only possible magic wand. :wizard:

At the moment, we are asking more than they're capable of. Of course they're failing at it. We need to need less from them, so they're at their optimum.
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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#31 » by MartinToVaught » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:54 pm

Lou had his best game in a while last night, but the way he was yelling at the refs in OT was giving me huge Lob City flashbacks. Didn't he get ejected against the Rockets earlier in the season for a similar tirade? He needs to be smarter than that.
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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#32 » by TheNewEra » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:09 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:Lou had his best game in a while last night, but the way he was yelling at the refs in OT was giving me huge Lob City flashbacks. Didn't he get ejected against the Rockets earlier in the season for a similar tirade? He needs to be smarter than that.


That Houston ejection was way more cussing. He was more upset but calm this time. One of the issues of a Houston series is those guys want to prove Houston wrong so bad emotions poor over even more.

Lou was had his best game in a while against the Celtics. Trez seemed to burn out after halftime and Amir should be a strong boost for the bench that greatly needs defensive effort
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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#33 » by esqtvd » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:11 am

TheNewEra wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:Lou had his best game in a while last night, but the way he was yelling at the refs in OT was giving me huge Lob City flashbacks. Didn't he get ejected against the Rockets earlier in the season for a similar tirade? He needs to be smarter than that.


That Houston ejection was way more cussing. He was more upset but calm this time. One of the issues of a Houston series is those guys want to prove Houston wrong so bad emotions poor over even more.

Lou was had his best game in a while against the Celtics. Trez seemed to burn out after halftime and Amir should be a strong boost for the bench that greatly needs defensive effort


people are all getting their shot
let's see what you've got
we're desperate for anyone who can fill up minutes without doing much damage
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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#34 » by Shaliq » Yesterday 3:15 pm

Hard to believe this thread has so many replies... SMH.
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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#35 » by esqtvd » Yesterday 7:44 pm

Shaliq wrote:Hard to believe this thread has so many replies... SMH.



And as it turns out, it's not Trezz but really just Lou who's slumping, and when he's playing with Kawhi and not the end of our bench, Lou's still in the black. And Trezz is doing just fine, provably better than Zu.


og15 wrote:

Since January
Piggy backing off the other thread about Williams and Harrell in the New Year, since January:

With Leonard:
Zubac: 293 mins, 115.9 Ortg, 110.5 Drtg, +5.5 NetRtg
Harrell: 225 mins, 120.5 Ortg, 108.8 Drtg, +11.8 NetRtg

With Williams:
Zubac: 121 mins, 103.0 Ortg, 109.3 Drtg, -6.3 NetRtg
Harrell: 456 mins, 110.2 Ortg, 111.7 Drtg, -1.5 NetRtg

With George and Leonard:
Zubac: 83 mins, 114.0 Ortg, 110.7 Drtg, +3.3 NetRtg
Harrell: 32 mins, 113.6 Ortg, 102.9 Drtg, +10.7 NetRtg

Williams/Leonard/Harrell: 171 mins, 118.4 Ortg, 107.6 Drtg, +10.8 NetRtg

I’ll have to say that I did not necessarily expect the numbers to look like this, but if we’re using lineup data and normalizing to an extent for who is on the court with the bigs (Zubac vs Harrell), lineups with Harrell are winning by a landslide when it comes to defense and overall net per possession production. This is both for the season as a whole and since the start of the new year.

So even in that sample size since January, you’re still getting a better result both offensive and defensively when you pair Kawhi and Harrell vs pairing Kawhi and Zubac.
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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#36 » by madmaxmedia » Yesterday 7:54 pm

NippySudz wrote:
Dynamix wrote:There was probably not a lot of interest for Trez's small expiring contract, since it's all about who can give him the most money this summer. Going after Thompson would've meant packaging him and Harkless, that's one step forward two steps back from a depth standpoint. Drummond was way out of reach, with no other clear upgrade options on the market. So yeah, rolling with Trez and hoping for the best is pretty much where we're at.

With Lou it's a different story, since we have multiple options to replace his offensive production from past seasons. If this slump continues, I expect his 4th quarter minutes to go way down. But let's wait and see how he looks after the AS break.

knowing how private the front office is, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to trade him but got no offers.


I think it comes down to whether there was a win-win out there for a Trez trade. Trez is a high motor tank, but everyone is aware of his limitations. There had to be a team that needed his specific skill set, for there to be a good trade for us.
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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#37 » by NippySudz » Yesterday 8:14 pm

madmaxmedia wrote:
NippySudz wrote:
Dynamix wrote:There was probably not a lot of interest for Trez's small expiring contract, since it's all about who can give him the most money this summer. Going after Thompson would've meant packaging him and Harkless, that's one step forward two steps back from a depth standpoint. Drummond was way out of reach, with no other clear upgrade options on the market. So yeah, rolling with Trez and hoping for the best is pretty much where we're at.

With Lou it's a different story, since we have multiple options to replace his offensive production from past seasons. If this slump continues, I expect his 4th quarter minutes to go way down. But let's wait and see how he looks after the AS break.

knowing how private the front office is, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to trade him but got no offers.


I think it comes down to whether there was a win-win out there for a Trez trade. Trez is a high motor tank, but everyone is aware of his limitations. There had to be a team that needed his specific skill set, for there to be a good trade for us.
He's going to walk for nothing

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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#38 » by esqtvd » Yesterday 8:32 pm

NippySudz wrote:
madmaxmedia wrote:
NippySudz wrote:knowing how private the front office is, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to trade him but got no offers.


I think it comes down to whether there was a win-win out there for a Trez trade. Trez is a high motor tank, but everyone is aware of his limitations. There had to be a team that needed his specific skill set, for there to be a good trade for us.
He's going to walk for nothing



we're dead meat without Trezz since no better replacement was obtainable
we're on a one-way ticket
no dicking around for a future that may never come

it's The Larry or bust
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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#39 » by NippySudz » Yesterday 8:53 pm

esqtvd wrote:
NippySudz wrote:
madmaxmedia wrote:
I think it comes down to whether there was a win-win out there for a Trez trade. Trez is a high motor tank, but everyone is aware of his limitations. There had to be a team that needed his specific skill set, for there to be a good trade for us.
He's going to walk for nothing



we're dead meat without Trezz since no better replacement was obtainable
we're on a one-way ticket
no dicking around for a future that may never come

it's The Larry or bust
You're now on the Larry or bust train?

I don't think it's championship or bust for a first year championship contending team. As I told mtv, it's very hard to win a championship the first yr

I hope we do, I believe the clippers have a great shot if we're all healthy.

But I wouldn't go as far to call it a chip or bust season

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esqtvd
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Re: Lou Williams and Montrez Harrell are net negatives since January 

Post#40 » by esqtvd » Yesterday 9:34 pm

NippySudz wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
NippySudz wrote:He's going to walk for nothing



we're dead meat without Trezz since no better replacement was obtainable
we're on a one-way ticket
no dicking around for a future that may never come

it's The Larry or bust
You're now on the Larry or bust train?

I don't think it's championship or bust for a first year championship contending team. As I told mtv, it's very hard to win a championship the first yr

I hope we do, I believe the clippers have a great shot if we're all healthy.

But I wouldn't go as far to call it a chip or bust season




Since [we assume] there was no upgrade at center available, whatever we would have got in return in picks or prospects would have weakened the roster for 2019-20. I can see holding onto Shamet or even Zubac, our two best [and only] young players, but otherwise the future is now.

If Trezz walks, he walks. We'll figure something out.
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