Lou Williams: Trade or not to trade?

[esqtvd]

No, the Clippers would not be showing Lou out the door if his production was similar to Aldridge, their production is basically the same relative to positions. I'm not really understanding that comparison, doesn't seem logical. If Lou was making $24 million though, that would be a different story.

The Spurs aren't moving Aldridge because of lack of production, they are trading him because he's an expiring who they know won't re-sign, and him and the team are in different places.

Aldridge:
13.7 ppg / 4.5 rpg / 1.7 apg / 0.9 bpg / 54.5% TS
20+ pts, 7/21 games
Double digits: 16/21 games
High games: 28, 26, 22, 21, 20 (X3)

Williams:
12.5 ppg / 2.3 rpg / 3.7 apg / 0.9 spg / 52.6% TS
20+ pts, 5/35 games
Double digits: 20/35 games
High games: 30, 27, 23, 21, 20

What's the massive production difference that would get Aldridge traded vs Lou on the Clippers if they had the same contract and relatively similar role? I really don't get it.

I didn't say it was out of line to criticize Morris, where did you read that? I said make a thread about Morris if you believe his lack of production or impact should be discussed. You are making a pretty unreasonable and irrational point. You're trying to spin the Spurs and Aldridge agreeing to a trade into meaning Aldridge is bad or unproductive. Is that a consistent conclusion we make about every player teams sit because of a trade? Doesn't make sense, just seems like you're being disingenuous here.

Aldridge is putting up 19/6/2 per 36, why should Morris' production not be close to comparable to that? Morris is more efficient and better on defense. This just doesn't make sense, you're making a correlation and taking it to an illiogical conclusion.


"Everyone sucks, why watch". Now you're spiralling, nothing in this thread even implies that. "Have it your way", whose way? Let's calm down and not spiral into made up stuff, lol

The Spurs would not be kicking Aldridge to the curb if he were producing. And Marcus is producing little or no better.

The board follows your lead, Mr Moderator. If you want to play to the negativity and scapegoating--and it's already set up for Lou and Ty to take the fall--than let's scapegoat the people who REALLY have it coming and you can let the board turn into one big "I told you so."

“I don’t trust the Clippers. I just don’t like their team. I don’t like the make-up of their team. I don’t like the players together. I look at this Clippers team. Who is making somebody else better on that team? It’s a bunch of cars parked in the same parking lot. There just kinda in their own spaces. I really thought they needed to make a trade. I don’t think they can go another playoffs with Lou Williams. He’s a terrible playoff player.

Beverly is not nearly enough offense. Morris is a ball stopper. I don’t trust Zubac. I don’t trust Nic Batum at all. Just wait till down 3-2, Game 6, a minute left down 2, he’s wide open in the corner. That thing is hitting the side of the backboard. This team is going to go war for four straight rounds? I don’t see it. Not to mention George is all over the place. There was a story the other day PG he’d skipped a game due to dizziness because he had too much coffee. This is the sh*t that happens to my son.”

There, I told you so. The whole team is "unplayable."

Just because you keep repeating something, it doesn’t become true. If you keep saying the Spurs are “kicking Aldridge to the curb” as if it is a unilateral decision and as if there aren’t particulars to why he is being moved, it doesn’t mean it is the reality

If you follow your logic consistently, only unproductive players get traded, but you can’t and you don’t consistently follow the logic that your are using here. Consistency is important, if you aren’t going to be consistent, one can just make up new standards to suit each argument they are making.

The other problem with your conclusion about Aldridge’s productivity is that it then suggest the Clippers SHOULD trade Williams if that is the standard you are using for production. From the standard of production you are using, Williams is also unproductive, but of course I disagree with your standard, but if you want to be consistent, that is what you are saying. If you don’t care about consistency, well then you can just say random things that don’t follow

I have little respect for Bill Simmons opinion, it means nothing to me. So I don’t care about his nonsense, the guy is a Clipper hater and constantly spews nonsense about the Clippers.

No, I'm saying the Marcus should be getting the scapegoating Lou is getting--that Lou WILL get if and when we fail in the playoffs again. He already gets it and he's playing well!! And of course LMA is being kicked to curb for similar meh production as Marcus's. And if you're going to continue to play to the ignorant negativity, then Bill Simmons is a perfect model lol. At least he has no sacred cows and brings the pain to EVERYBODY who is less than perfect. Which is everybody.

Your board. Your call. Nothing Simmons said is provably wrong. We can fill the board with this stuff until the playoffs and beyond if you want.

[NickP]

The Spurs would not be kicking Aldridge to the curb if he were producing. And Marcus is producing little or no better.

The board follows your lead, Mr Moderator. If you want to play to the negativity and scapegoating--and it's already set up for Lou and Ty to take the fall--than let's scapegoat the people who REALLY have it coming and you can let the board turn into one big "I told you so."






There, I told you so. The whole team is "unplayable."

Just because you keep repeating something, it doesn’t become true. If you keep saying the Spurs are “kicking Aldridge to the curb” as if it is a unilateral decision and as if there aren’t particulars to why he is being moved, it doesn’t mean it is the reality

If you follow your logic consistently, only unproductive players get traded, but you can’t and you don’t consistently follow the logic that your are using here. Consistency is important, if you aren’t going to be consistent, one can just make up new standards to suit each argument they are making.

The other problem with your conclusion about Aldridge’s productivity is that it then suggest the Clippers SHOULD trade Williams if that is the standard you are using for production. From the standard of production you are using, Williams is also unproductive, but of course I disagree with your standard, but if you want to be consistent, that is what you are saying. If you don’t care about consistency, well then you can just say random things that don’t follow

I have little respect for Bill Simmons opinion, it means nothing to me. So I don’t care about his nonsense, the guy is a Clipper hater and constantly spews nonsense about the Clippers.

No, I'm saying the Marcus should be getting the scapegoating Lou is getting--that Lou WILL get if and when we fail in the playoffs again. He already gets it and he's playing well!! And of course LMA is being kicked to curb for similar meh production as Marcus's. And if you're going to continue to play to the ignorant negativity, then Bill Simmons is a perfect model lol. At least he has no sacred cows and brings the pain to EVERYBODY who is less than perfect. Which is everybody.

Your board. Your call. Nothing Simmons said is provably wrong. We can fill the board with this stuff until the playoffs and beyond if you want.

Yes Lou is getting scapegoated but I've posted many times that Morris and Batum need to step up big time. If we're to have any success in the playoffs then we need all hands on deck.

[madmaxmedia]

Just because you keep repeating something, it doesn’t become true. If you keep saying the Spurs are “kicking Aldridge to the curb” as if it is a unilateral decision and as if there aren’t particulars to why he is being moved, it doesn’t mean it is the reality

If you follow your logic consistently, only unproductive players get traded, but you can’t and you don’t consistently follow the logic that your are using here. Consistency is important, if you aren’t going to be consistent, one can just make up new standards to suit each argument they are making.

The other problem with your conclusion about Aldridge’s productivity is that it then suggest the Clippers SHOULD trade Williams if that is the standard you are using for production. From the standard of production you are using, Williams is also unproductive, but of course I disagree with your standard, but if you want to be consistent, that is what you are saying. If you don’t care about consistency, well then you can just say random things that don’t follow

I have little respect for Bill Simmons opinion, it means nothing to me. So I don’t care about his nonsense, the guy is a Clipper hater and constantly spews nonsense about the Clippers.

No, I'm saying the Marcus should be getting the scapegoating Lou is getting--that Lou WILL get if and when we fail in the playoffs again. He already gets it and he's playing well!! And of course LMA is being kicked to curb for similar meh production as Marcus's. And if you're going to continue to play to the ignorant negativity, then Bill Simmons is a perfect model lol. At least he has no sacred cows and brings the pain to EVERYBODY who is less than perfect. Which is everybody.

Your board. Your call. Nothing Simmons said is provably wrong. We can fill the board with this stuff until the playoffs and beyond if you want.

Yes Lou is getting scapegoated but I've posted many times that Morris and Batum need to step up big time. If we're to have any success in the playoffs then we need all hands on deck.

Even Kennard LOL

[madmaxmedia]

At least Simmons gets paid for it.

It's so weird because he's a pretty smart guy (that I give a lot of credit for being co-creator on the 30-for-30 series), and by now has enough access that I'm sure he's got more a lot more exposure than the average fan. But he still resorts to average fan platitudes, like 'they'll always be the Clippers," crap like that. That's not analysis, it's random bar counter talk (which is fine in a bar.)

I guess he's just much more a narrative guy, than a nuts-and-bolts guy. Pretty obvious observation, but they gotta use him when it plays to his strengths.

[esqtvd]

At least Simmons gets paid for it.

It's so weird because he's a pretty smart guy (that I give a lot of credit for being co-creator on the 30-for-30 series), and by now has enough access that I'm sure he's got more a lot more exposure than the average fan. But he still resorts to average fan platitudes, like 'they'll always be the Clippers," crap like that. That's not analysis, it's random bar counter talk (which is fine in a bar.)

I guess he's just much more a narrative guy, than a nuts-and-bolts guy. Pretty obvious observation, but they gotta use him when it plays to his strengths.

I think you're spot-on about the narrative thing. Simmons never worked as a beat writer--living the life, crawling in the skin of pro sports day-to-day. Basically, he just savaged every Clipper who hasn't won a ring, that is, Kawhi and Serge. Easy pickins.

But I do know Simmons has Clipper season tickets and I'd think he has a few inside sources. As I said after last year's debacle, the question wasn't whether the team is a mess but whether that mess is a team. What he says about this being more a collection of guys who park their cars next to each other has a familiar overtone. They're clearly going through the motions of teamwork better but will that be enough?

[SnoopDub]

Damn. This thread has mixed emotions on trading Lou. Honestly, I really dont want Lou to get traded but this year is a title or bust. Every Clipper fan surely loves him but we need to do everything we can to win a ring now.

Kawhi is not signing an extention contract with us.
We shipped multiple FRPs and pick swaps to OKC.
The best young asset the clippers have is Zubac who has a very low ceiling.

The positive in the long run we have is PG signing that contract.

We definitely need a big move right now because lets face it, we aint winning with this roster especially the nets roster looking like a juggernaut

[og15]

The Spurs would not be kicking Aldridge to the curb if he were producing. And Marcus is producing little or no better.

The board follows your lead, Mr Moderator. If you want to play to the negativity and scapegoating--and it's already set up for Lou and Ty to take the fall--than let's scapegoat the people who REALLY have it coming and you can let the board turn into one big "I told you so."






There, I told you so. The whole team is "unplayable."

Just because you keep repeating something, it doesn’t become true. If you keep saying the Spurs are “kicking Aldridge to the curb” as if it is a unilateral decision and as if there aren’t particulars to why he is being moved, it doesn’t mean it is the reality

If you follow your logic consistently, only unproductive players get traded, but you can’t and you don’t consistently follow the logic that your are using here. Consistency is important, if you aren’t going to be consistent, one can just make up new standards to suit each argument they are making.

The other problem with your conclusion about Aldridge’s productivity is that it then suggest the Clippers SHOULD trade Williams if that is the standard you are using for production. From the standard of production you are using, Williams is also unproductive, but of course I disagree with your standard, but if you want to be consistent, that is what you are saying. If you don’t care about consistency, well then you can just say random things that don’t follow

I have little respect for Bill Simmons opinion, it means nothing to me. So I don’t care about his nonsense, the guy is a Clipper hater and constantly spews nonsense about the Clippers.

No, I'm saying the Marcus should be getting the scapegoating Lou is getting--that Lou WILL get if and when we fail in the playoffs again. He already gets it and he's playing well!! And of course LMA is being kicked to curb for similar meh production as Marcus's. And if you're going to continue to play to the ignorant negativity, then Bill Simmons is a perfect model lol. At least he has no sacred cows and brings the pain to EVERYBODY who is less than perfect. Which is everybody.

Your board. Your call. Nothing Simmons said is provably wrong. We can fill the board with this stuff until the playoffs and beyond if you want.

I don't recall my posts blaming or scapegoating Lou Williams for losses, you'll have to find them for me. Maybe this response is referring to someone else?

And of course LMA is being kicked to curb for similar meh production as Marcus's.

"Of course" is a fact statement, which requires corroboration, not personal narrative, I don't see the corroboration for the conclusion.

“He has been an All-Star, started his whole career, is a great player,” Murray said of Aldridge, who Popovich moved to the bench two weeks ago. “His stats and everything he has done from high school to now speaks for itself,” Murray continued. “He deserves to be happy. So with him wanting to find another situation before he retires, he deserves that. And that’s why I love the Spurs organization because they are trying to make themselves happy and him happy.”

Sounds like they are trading him because they know they aren't contenders, they know he's not returning, and they want to give him a chance to contend but also not lose him for nothing. This is pretty standard occurrence, Grizzlies did the same thing with Marc Gasol a couple seasons ago. Before the 15 minutes vs Brooklyn, in his last 8 games, LMA was averaging 16/4/1/1 on 54/55/82 in 25 mpg, the team was + with him on the floor in 6/8 games.

Again if you're going to be consistent with this "meh production" take, and if you care at all about consistency in argument, then if LaMarcus and Morris have "meh" production, you are also concluding that Lou Williams is having "meh production" too, there's no getting around that. Marcus is above his career rate in pts, the same range in rebs, stls, blks, a lower rate on fouls and turnovers and a career high 3PT%. If you think his production is "meh" this season, then there was never a time you thought his production wasn't "meh". He's 71st in the league in pts/100, he's 6th in the league in 3PT%. He would be the best 3PT shooter percentage wise on 90% of the teams in the league. He would be on average around 3rd in scoring rate for most teams in the league.

No, I'm saying the Marcus should be getting the scapegoating Lou is getting--that Lou WILL get if and when we fail in the playoffs again.

I don't think we need to act as if Lou's playoff criticism is unfounded or comes out of nowhere or is unfair, especially since the only counter we have is to say "well he was good in that one series in 2019". There's clear reason why Lou got flak for his play last year more so than Morris. He had a higher role and higher expectations offensively, and he overall performed worse relative to his regular season contribution. Williams averaged 10/3/4 and shot 35/15 vs Denver. Morris averaged 11/4/1 and shot 47/42 vs Denver.

It's not somehow out of nowhere that he was higher on people's "scapegoat list" just George was higher than Kawhi, etc. This doesn't mean Morris played specifically well, he was trash shooting wise in the last 3 games too, but it's relative.

I also value consistency, so if one is going to say "oh it was the 'Mickey Mouse' playoffs and should be disregarded", well first, that doesn't mean everyone will or should agree with that. Second, one can't then use the same playoff scenario when wanting to criticize another player, because then it's using selective standards. If those playoffs mattered in evaluating some players, they matter for evaluating all, not just when one decides they want to reference it because it proves the point one wants to make.

And if you're going to continue to play to the ignorant negativity, then Bill Simmons is a perfect model lol. At least he has no sacred cows and brings the pain to EVERYBODY who is less than perfect. Which is everybody.

Your board. Your call. Nothing Simmons said is provably wrong. We can fill the board with this stuff until the playoffs and beyond if you want.

I'm almost 100% certain that if we compared the percentage of our posts about the Clippers, you make FAR more negative posts about the players / team and have more negative takes than I do, so I'm not really sure how to respond here. I don't know of any posts where I claim this or that player is leaving the team or that a player is just content that they are paid and not trying hard, etc.

In the last couple of days as far as I know from what I've read, maybe there's more, but you've made posts about Kawhi leaving (which you like to insinuate at every opportunity it seems) and Serge opting out if this or that doesn't happen, and a post stated as fact that Morris only cares that he got paid. Do you really see that as putting you in the position to judge what is negativity and to call people out on negative posts when you don't like the content of the negative posts while consistently making your own? Maybe you're not realizing that you are doing what you are criticizing, or deem your way as "different" and not negativity, but that's not really how it works.

If we compare the content, your negative posts are speculation and downer posts about the teams future in relation to Kawhi, saying guys only care about their money and not about performing, saying a player needs a testicular transplant and is the weakest player you've ever seen, etc vs what you are arguing right now, which was me saying "we shouldn't trade Williams, but he hasn't shown to be reliable in the post-season", and is supported by history and data.

I mean.....

[esqtvd]

Just because you keep repeating something, it doesn’t become true. If you keep saying the Spurs are “kicking Aldridge to the curb” as if it is a unilateral decision and as if there aren’t particulars to why he is being moved, it doesn’t mean it is the reality

If you follow your logic consistently, only unproductive players get traded, but you can’t and you don’t consistently follow the logic that your are using here. Consistency is important, if you aren’t going to be consistent, one can just make up new standards to suit each argument they are making.

The other problem with your conclusion about Aldridge’s productivity is that it then suggest the Clippers SHOULD trade Williams if that is the standard you are using for production. From the standard of production you are using, Williams is also unproductive, but of course I disagree with your standard, but if you want to be consistent, that is what you are saying. If you don’t care about consistency, well then you can just say random things that don’t follow

I have little respect for Bill Simmons opinion, it means nothing to me. So I don’t care about his nonsense, the guy is a Clipper hater and constantly spews nonsense about the Clippers.

No, I'm saying the Marcus should be getting the scapegoating Lou is getting--that Lou WILL get if and when we fail in the playoffs again. He already gets it and he's playing well!! And of course LMA is being kicked to curb for similar meh production as Marcus's. And if you're going to continue to play to the ignorant negativity, then Bill Simmons is a perfect model lol. At least he has no sacred cows and brings the pain to EVERYBODY who is less than perfect. Which is everybody.

Your board. Your call. Nothing Simmons said is provably wrong. We can fill the board with this stuff until the playoffs and beyond if you want.

I don't recall my posts blaming or scapegoating Lou Williams for losses, you'll have to find them for me. Maybe this response is referring to someone else?

And of course LMA is being kicked to curb for similar meh production as Marcus's.

"Of course" is a fact statement, which requires corroboration, not personal narrative, I don't see the corroboration for the conclusion.

“He has been an All-Star, started his whole career, is a great player,” Murray said of Aldridge, who Popovich moved to the bench two weeks ago. “His stats and everything he has done from high school to now speaks for itself,” Murray continued. “He deserves to be happy. So with him wanting to find another situation before he retires, he deserves that. And that’s why I love the Spurs organization because they are trying to make themselves happy and him happy.”

Sounds like they are trading him because they know they aren't contenders, they know he's not returning, and they want to give him a chance to contend but also not lose him for nothing. This is pretty standard occurrence, Grizzlies did the same thing with Marc Gasol a couple seasons ago. Before the 15 minutes vs Brooklyn, in his last 8 games, LMA was averaging 16/4/1/1 on 54/55/82 in 25 mpg, the team was + with him on the floor in 6/8 games.

Again if you're going to be consistent with this "meh production" take, and if you care at all about consistency in argument, then if LaMarcus and Morris have "meh" production, you are also concluding that Lou Williams is having "meh production" too, there's no getting around that. Marcus is above his career rate in pts, the same range in rebs, stls, blks, a lower rate on fouls and turnovers and a career high 3PT%. If you think his production is "meh" this season, then there was never a time you thought his production wasn't "meh". He's 71st in the league in pts/100, he's 6th in the league in 3PT%. He would be the best 3PT shooter percentage wise on 90% of the teams in the league. He would be on average around 3rd in scoring rate for most teams in the league.

No, I'm saying the Marcus should be getting the scapegoating Lou is getting--that Lou WILL get if and when we fail in the playoffs again.

I don't think we need to act as if Lou's playoff criticism is unfounded or comes out of nowhere or is unfair, especially since the only counter we have is to say "well he was good in that one series in 2019". There's clear reason why Lou got flak for his play last year more so than Morris. He had a higher role and higher expectations offensively, and he overall performed worse relative to his regular season contribution. Williams averaged 10/3/4 and shot 35/15 vs Denver. Morris averaged 11/4/1 and shot 47/42 vs Denver.

It's not somehow out of nowhere that he was higher on people's "scapegoat list" just George was higher than Kawhi, etc. This doesn't mean Morris played specifically well, he was trash shooting wise in the last 3 games too, but it's relative.

I also value consistency, so if one is going to say "oh it was the 'Mickey Mouse' playoffs and should be disregarded", well first, that doesn't mean everyone will or should agree with that. Second, one can't then use the same playoff scenario when wanting to criticize another player, because then it's using selective standards. If those playoffs mattered in evaluating some players, they matter for evaluating all, not just when one decides they want to reference it because it proves the point one wants to make.

And if you're going to continue to play to the ignorant negativity, then Bill Simmons is a perfect model lol. At least he has no sacred cows and brings the pain to EVERYBODY who is less than perfect. Which is everybody.

Your board. Your call. Nothing Simmons said is provably wrong. We can fill the board with this stuff until the playoffs and beyond if you want.

I'm almost 100% certain that if we compared the percentage of our posts about the Clippers, you make FAR more negative posts about the players / team and have more negative takes than I do, so I'm not really sure how to respond here. I don't know of any posts where I claim this or that player is leaving the team or that a player is just content that they are paid and not trying hard, etc.

In the last couple of days as far as I know from what I've read, maybe there's more, but you've made posts about Kawhi leaving (which you like to insinuate at every opportunity it seems) and Serge opting out if this or that doesn't happen, and a post stated as fact that Morris only cares that he got paid. Do you really see that as putting you in the position to judge what is negativity and to call people out on negative posts when you don't like the content of the negative posts while consistently making your own? Maybe you're not realizing that you are doing what you are criticizing, or deem your way as "different" and not negativity, but that's not really how it works.

If we compare the content, your negative posts are speculation and downer posts about the teams future in relation to Kawhi, saying guys only care about their money and not about performing, saying a player needs a testicular transplant and is the weakest player you've ever seen, etc vs what you are arguing right now, which was me saying "we shouldn't trade Williams, but he hasn't shown to be reliable in the post-season", and is supported by history and data.

I mean.....

I also post more positive stuff than you do. I also post more substantive stuff than the negative element that you indulge. If you want a board full of predictions we're going to lose every game and the coach sucks and 1000 reasons why we can't win the Larry that's what you'll get. In the end, it's your board but that's not my idea of fun.

As for more being expected of Lou, that's precisely my point--more should be expected of Marcus as our 3rd highest-paid player: Lou is scheduled to be traded or tossed. If you're satisfied with Marcus's 12/4/1, well you shouldn't be. That's where the microscope SHOULD be focused.

As for LMA, it's a petty point not worth debating on a Clippers board. If he were of any real value to the Spurs he wouldn't be sent home and paid not to play. IMO. I think his production stinks and it's about the same as Marcus's. YMMV.

[esqtvd]

Damn. This thread has mixed emotions on trading Lou. Honestly, I really dont want Lou to get traded but this year is a title or bust. Every Clipper fan surely loves him but we need to do everything we can to win a ring now.

Kawhi is not signing an extention contract with us.
We shipped multiple FRPs and pick swaps to OKC.
The best young asset the clippers have is Zubac who has a very low ceiling.

The positive in the long run we have is PG signing that contract.

We definitely need a big move right now because lets face it, we aint winning with this roster especially the nets roster looking like a juggernaut

Nothing provably wrong here. Sounds like Bill Simmons. Except he hates PG too.

[og15]

No, I'm saying the Marcus should be getting the scapegoating Lou is getting--that Lou WILL get if and when we fail in the playoffs again. He already gets it and he's playing well!! And of course LMA is being kicked to curb for similar meh production as Marcus's. And if you're going to continue to play to the ignorant negativity, then Bill Simmons is a perfect model lol. At least he has no sacred cows and brings the pain to EVERYBODY who is less than perfect. Which is everybody.

Your board. Your call. Nothing Simmons said is provably wrong. We can fill the board with this stuff until the playoffs and beyond if you want.

I don't recall my posts blaming or scapegoating Lou Williams for losses, you'll have to find them for me. Maybe this response is referring to someone else?

And of course LMA is being kicked to curb for similar meh production as Marcus's.

"Of course" is a fact statement, which requires corroboration, not personal narrative, I don't see the corroboration for the conclusion.

“He has been an All-Star, started his whole career, is a great player,” Murray said of Aldridge, who Popovich moved to the bench two weeks ago. “His stats and everything he has done from high school to now speaks for itself,” Murray continued. “He deserves to be happy. So with him wanting to find another situation before he retires, he deserves that. And that’s why I love the Spurs organization because they are trying to make themselves happy and him happy.”

Sounds like they are trading him because they know they aren't contenders, they know he's not returning, and they want to give him a chance to contend but also not lose him for nothing. This is pretty standard occurrence, Grizzlies did the same thing with Marc Gasol a couple seasons ago. Before the 15 minutes vs Brooklyn, in his last 8 games, LMA was averaging 16/4/1/1 on 54/55/82 in 25 mpg, the team was + with him on the floor in 6/8 games.

Again if you're going to be consistent with this "meh production" take, and if you care at all about consistency in argument, then if LaMarcus and Morris have "meh" production, you are also concluding that Lou Williams is having "meh production" too, there's no getting around that. Marcus is above his career rate in pts, the same range in rebs, stls, blks, a lower rate on fouls and turnovers and a career high 3PT%. If you think his production is "meh" this season, then there was never a time you thought his production wasn't "meh". He's 71st in the league in pts/100, he's 6th in the league in 3PT%. He would be the best 3PT shooter percentage wise on 90% of the teams in the league. He would be on average around 3rd in scoring rate for most teams in the league.

No, I'm saying the Marcus should be getting the scapegoating Lou is getting--that Lou WILL get if and when we fail in the playoffs again.

I don't think we need to act as if Lou's playoff criticism is unfounded or comes out of nowhere or is unfair, especially since the only counter we have is to say "well he was good in that one series in 2019". There's clear reason why Lou got flak for his play last year more so than Morris. He had a higher role and higher expectations offensively, and he overall performed worse relative to his regular season contribution. Williams averaged 10/3/4 and shot 35/15 vs Denver. Morris averaged 11/4/1 and shot 47/42 vs Denver.

It's not somehow out of nowhere that he was higher on people's "scapegoat list" just George was higher than Kawhi, etc. This doesn't mean Morris played specifically well, he was trash shooting wise in the last 3 games too, but it's relative.

I also value consistency, so if one is going to say "oh it was the 'Mickey Mouse' playoffs and should be disregarded", well first, that doesn't mean everyone will or should agree with that. Second, one can't then use the same playoff scenario when wanting to criticize another player, because then it's using selective standards. If those playoffs mattered in evaluating some players, they matter for evaluating all, not just when one decides they want to reference it because it proves the point one wants to make.

And if you're going to continue to play to the ignorant negativity, then Bill Simmons is a perfect model lol. At least he has no sacred cows and brings the pain to EVERYBODY who is less than perfect. Which is everybody.

Your board. Your call. Nothing Simmons said is provably wrong. We can fill the board with this stuff until the playoffs and beyond if you want.

I'm almost 100% certain that if we compared the percentage of our posts about the Clippers, you make FAR more negative posts about the players / team and have more negative takes than I do, so I'm not really sure how to respond here. I don't know of any posts where I claim this or that player is leaving the team or that a player is just content that they are paid and not trying hard, etc.

In the last couple of days as far as I know from what I've read, maybe there's more, but you've made posts about Kawhi leaving (which you like to insinuate at every opportunity it seems) and Serge opting out if this or that doesn't happen, and a post stated as fact that Morris only cares that he got paid. Do you really see that as putting you in the position to judge what is negativity and to call people out on negative posts when you don't like the content of the negative posts while consistently making your own? Maybe you're not realizing that you are doing what you are criticizing, or deem your way as "different" and not negativity, but that's not really how it works.

If we compare the content, your negative posts are speculation and downer posts about the teams future in relation to Kawhi, saying guys only care about their money and not about performing, saying a player needs a testicular transplant and is the weakest player you've ever seen, etc vs what you are arguing right now, which was me saying "we shouldn't trade Williams, but he hasn't shown to be reliable in the post-season", and is supported by history and data.

I mean.....

I also post more positive stuff than you do. I also post more substantive stuff than the negative element that you indulge. If you want a board full of predictions we're going to lose every game and the coach sucks and 1000 reasons why we can't win the Larry that's what you'll get. In the end, it's your board but that's not my idea of fun.

As for more being expected of Lou, that's precisely my point--more should be expected of Marcus as our 3rd highest-paid player: Lou is scheduled to be traded or tossed. If you're satisfied with Marcus's 12/4/1, well you shouldn't be. That's where the microscope SHOULD be focused.

As for LMA, it's a petty point not worth debating on a Clippers board. If he were of any real value to the Spurs he wouldn't be sent home and paid not to play. IMO. I think his production stinks and it's about the same as Marcus's. YMMV.

You post more positive stuff because you post more, and you also post more negative stuff, the ratio is not on your side, don't get it twisted. I have receipts, but that's not the purpose here. Let people predict we're going to lose every game, it's the internet, thick skin is sometimes required, not censoring everything one doesn't like. I'm not triggered by it, you shouldn't be too...

Also, it's not my board

Morris is being himself, people are confused
Marcus' 12/4/1 in 24 minutes is right in line with his production rate over his last 3 seasons which have been his most productive of his career. Scoring wise his 12 ppt in 24 minutes is above his career rate and above every season except for his last two seasons in Boston and his time in New York.

If the team wants more counting production from him, they can play him more, simple as that, but I don't give a hoot about counting stats. If Morris' minutes was upped to 30 mpg, he'd be averaging around 15/5 but wouldn't be any better and wouldn't necessarily have any more impact, why would that make me happy?

If the team thought that Morris would give them more than he is giving them while playing 24 mpg, then they signed the wrong player and were confused about who the were signing. If we want him to be a chemistry problem and start complaining about his playing time and trying to usurp Batum's role as a show of "caring", well, I'm not sure that's going to help the team.

Marcus Morris makes $14.9 million. The class of players around him, +/- $1.5 million are guys like Davis Bertans, Danny Green, Cody Zeller, Dennis Schroder, Rudy Gay, Kelly Oubre, Dejounte Murray, Thaddeus Young, Patty Mills, Terrence Ross, Joe Harris. Basically, these are guys who on good teams in about 24 mpg will give you around 12 ppg, and in about 30 mpg will give you around 15 ppg, for the most part. On worse teams where they can shoot more, they can give you more, but it isn't winning games. Morris is no different, hence why his agent got him that salary. Salaries are basically based on looking around the league at similar productive guys and saying "my guy deserves this". If you tried to look for a trade for Morris for someone making a similar amount with the aim to improve the team, you will find options lacking.

If Morris was playing 30-31 mpg like Joe Harris, he's not the same sharp shooter and doesn't move off the ball like him, but is better defensively, and he'd be averaging around 15/5/1 compared to Harris' 15/4/2. Schroder is the Lakers 3rd highest paid player. In 31 minutes, he's averaging 15/4/5 shooting 44/32.

Lineups affect perception of impact of non-stars
If you thought moving up to 3rd highest player on the team would make him better, you had wrong expectations. The Clippers re-signed him to the contract after he dropped to 10/4/1 in 29 mpg last season after being traded to the Clippers. He's outproducing what he did in his 19 games as a Clipper last season. The difference is that he's now with the bench, not the starters, so he doesn't have as sexy +/-, and the units he's with don't look as good.

This is just the same problem of people having trouble separating a players production from the lineups they are with. Same thing we have seen with Zubac with people convincing themselves that he's "worse" this season. It's basically just confirmation bias. If the Clippers moved Morris and Zubac into the starting lineup for the next 15 games, we'd have people claiming they got better regardless of their actual individual production, and we'd probably have people claiming Serge and Batum got worse.

[esqtvd]

I don't recall my posts blaming or scapegoating Lou Williams for losses, you'll have to find them for me. Maybe this response is referring to someone else?


"Of course" is a fact statement, which requires corroboration, not personal narrative, I don't see the corroboration for the conclusion.

“He has been an All-Star, started his whole career, is a great player,” Murray said of Aldridge, who Popovich moved to the bench two weeks ago. “His stats and everything he has done from high school to now speaks for itself,” Murray continued. “He deserves to be happy. So with him wanting to find another situation before he retires, he deserves that. And that’s why I love the Spurs organization because they are trying to make themselves happy and him happy.”

Sounds like they are trading him because they know they aren't contenders, they know he's not returning, and they want to give him a chance to contend but also not lose him for nothing. This is pretty standard occurrence, Grizzlies did the same thing with Marc Gasol a couple seasons ago. Before the 15 minutes vs Brooklyn, in his last 8 games, LMA was averaging 16/4/1/1 on 54/55/82 in 25 mpg, the team was + with him on the floor in 6/8 games.

Again if you're going to be consistent with this "meh production" take, and if you care at all about consistency in argument, then if LaMarcus and Morris have "meh" production, you are also concluding that Lou Williams is having "meh production" too, there's no getting around that. Marcus is above his career rate in pts, the same range in rebs, stls, blks, a lower rate on fouls and turnovers and a career high 3PT%. If you think his production is "meh" this season, then there was never a time you thought his production wasn't "meh". He's 71st in the league in pts/100, he's 6th in the league in 3PT%. He would be the best 3PT shooter percentage wise on 90% of the teams in the league. He would be on average around 3rd in scoring rate for most teams in the league.

I don't think we need to act as if Lou's playoff criticism is unfounded or comes out of nowhere or is unfair, especially since the only counter we have is to say "well he was good in that one series in 2019". There's clear reason why Lou got flak for his play last year more so than Morris. He had a higher role and higher expectations offensively, and he overall performed worse relative to his regular season contribution. Williams averaged 10/3/4 and shot 35/15 vs Denver. Morris averaged 11/4/1 and shot 47/42 vs Denver.

It's not somehow out of nowhere that he was higher on people's "scapegoat list" just George was higher than Kawhi, etc. This doesn't mean Morris played specifically well, he was trash shooting wise in the last 3 games too, but it's relative.

I also value consistency, so if one is going to say "oh it was the 'Mickey Mouse' playoffs and should be disregarded", well first, that doesn't mean everyone will or should agree with that. Second, one can't then use the same playoff scenario when wanting to criticize another player, because then it's using selective standards. If those playoffs mattered in evaluating some players, they matter for evaluating all, not just when one decides they want to reference it because it proves the point one wants to make.

I'm almost 100% certain that if we compared the percentage of our posts about the Clippers, you make FAR more negative posts about the players / team and have more negative takes than I do, so I'm not really sure how to respond here. I don't know of any posts where I claim this or that player is leaving the team or that a player is just content that they are paid and not trying hard, etc.

In the last couple of days as far as I know from what I've read, maybe there's more, but you've made posts about Kawhi leaving (which you like to insinuate at every opportunity it seems) and Serge opting out if this or that doesn't happen, and a post stated as fact that Morris only cares that he got paid. Do you really see that as putting you in the position to judge what is negativity and to call people out on negative posts when you don't like the content of the negative posts while consistently making your own? Maybe you're not realizing that you are doing what you are criticizing, or deem your way as "different" and not negativity, but that's not really how it works.

If we compare the content, your negative posts are speculation and downer posts about the teams future in relation to Kawhi, saying guys only care about their money and not about performing, saying a player needs a testicular transplant and is the weakest player you've ever seen, etc vs what you are arguing right now, which was me saying "we shouldn't trade Williams, but he hasn't shown to be reliable in the post-season", and is supported by history and data.

I mean.....

I also post more positive stuff than you do. I also post more substantive stuff than the negative element that you indulge. If you want a board full of predictions we're going to lose every game and the coach sucks and 1000 reasons why we can't win the Larry that's what you'll get. In the end, it's your board but that's not my idea of fun.

As for more being expected of Lou, that's precisely my point--more should be expected of Marcus as our 3rd highest-paid player: Lou is scheduled to be traded or tossed. If you're satisfied with Marcus's 12/4/1, well you shouldn't be. That's where the microscope SHOULD be focused.

As for LMA, it's a petty point not worth debating on a Clippers board. If he were of any real value to the Spurs he wouldn't be sent home and paid not to play. IMO. I think his production stinks and it's about the same as Marcus's. YMMV.

You post more positive stuff because you post more, and you also post more negative stuff, the ratio is not on your side, don't get it twisted. I have receipts, but that's not the purpose here. Let people predict we're going to lose every game, it's the internet, thick skin is sometimes required, not censoring everything one doesn't like. I'm not triggered by it, you shouldn't be too...

Also, it's not my board

Morris is being himself, people are confused
Marcus' 12/4/1 in 24 minutes is right in line with his production rate over his last 3 seasons which have been his most productive of his career. Scoring wise his 12 ppt in 24 minutes is above his career rate and above every season except for his last two seasons in Boston and his time in New York.

If the team wants more counting production from him, they can play him more, simple as that, but I don't give a hoot about counting stats. If Morris' minutes was upped to 30 mpg, he'd be averaging around 15/5 but wouldn't be any better and wouldn't necessarily have any more impact, why would that make me happy?

If the team thought that Morris would give them more than he is giving them while playing 24 mpg, then they signed the wrong player and were confused about who the were signing. If we want him to be a chemistry problem and start complaining about his playing time and trying to usurp Batum's role as a show of "caring", well, I'm not sure that's going to help the team.

Marcus Morris makes $14.9 million. The class of players around him, +/- $1.5 million are guys like Davis Bertans, Danny Green, Cody Zeller, Dennis Schroder, Rudy Gay, Kelly Oubre, Dejounte Murray, Thaddeus Young, Patty Mills, Terrence Ross, Joe Harris. Basically, these are guys who on good teams in about 24 mpg will give you around 12 ppg, and in about 30 mpg will give you around 15 ppg, for the most part. On worse teams where they can shoot more, they can give you more, but it isn't winning games. Morris is no different, hence why his agent got him that salary. Salaries are basically based on looking around the league at similar productive guys and saying "my guy deserves this". If you tried to look for a trade for Morris for someone making a similar amount with the aim to improve the team, you will find options lacking.

If Morris was playing 30-31 mpg like Joe Harris, he's not the same sharp shooter and doesn't move off the ball like him, but is better defensively, and he'd be averaging around 15/5/1 compared to Harris' 15/4/2. Schroder is the Lakers 3rd highest paid player. In 31 minutes, he's averaging 15/4/5 shooting 44/32.

Lineups affect perception of impact of non-stars
If you thought moving up to 3rd highest player on the team would make him better, you had wrong expectations. The Clippers re-signed him to the contract after he dropped to 10/4/1 in 29 mpg last season after being traded to the Clippers. He's outproducing what he did in his 19 games as a Clipper last season. The difference is that he's now with the bench, not the starters, so he doesn't have as sexy +/-, and the units he's with don't look as good.

This is just the same problem of people having trouble separating a players production from the lineups they are with. Same thing we have seen with Zubac with people convincing themselves that he's "worse" this season. It's basically just confirmation bias. If the Clippers moved Morris and Zubac into the starting lineup for the next 15 games, we'd have people claiming they got better regardless of their actual individual production, and we'd probably have people claiming Serge and Batum got worse.

Yes, I post more. I also seem to actually read the board more. And next time bring your receipts. It's not just about negativity, it's about identifying the right villains if we're going to play the blame game with still half a season to go, instead of scapegoating the innocent.

If the team thought that Morris would give them more than he is giving them while playing 24 mpg, then they signed the wrong player and were confused about who the were signing.

Bingo that. 12/4/1. But the question here is why Lou gets the blame when he's either going to be traded or likely not re-signed. Marcus's plus/minus over the past 15 games is an anemic plus+1.6 while Lou is second on the team at plus+5.3.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612746&LastNGames=15

[TheNewEra]

If they don’t make the deal it’s a major mistake now

[TheNewEra]

Damn. This thread has mixed emotions on trading Lou. Honestly, I really dont want Lou to get traded but this year is a title or bust. Every Clipper fan surely loves him but we need to do everything we can to win a ring now.

Kawhi is not signing an extention contract with us.
We shipped multiple FRPs and pick swaps to OKC.
The best young asset the clippers have is Zubac who has a very low ceiling.

The positive in the long run we have is PG signing that contract.

We definitely need a big move right now because lets face it, we aint winning with this roster especially the nets roster looking like a juggernaut

You don’t trade the young guy that plays defense and showed higher potential for the one way player that’s near retirement

[SnoopDub]

Damn. This thread has mixed emotions on trading Lou. Honestly, I really dont want Lou to get traded but this year is a title or bust. Every Clipper fan surely loves him but we need to do everything we can to win a ring now.

Kawhi is not signing an extention contract with us.
We shipped multiple FRPs and pick swaps to OKC.
The best young asset the clippers have is Zubac who has a very low ceiling.

The positive in the long run we have is PG signing that contract.

We definitely need a big move right now because lets face it, we aint winning with this roster especially the nets roster looking like a juggernaut

You don’t trade the young guy that plays defense and showed higher potential for the one way player that’s near retirement

Whats your point?

I didnt say trade Zubac. Im saying that were screwed if we dont win the championship this year. We mortgaged the future of this team for this roster and were not gonna win a ring.

[TheNewEra]

Damn. This thread has mixed emotions on trading Lou. Honestly, I really dont want Lou to get traded but this year is a title or bust. Every Clipper fan surely loves him but we need to do everything we can to win a ring now.

Kawhi is not signing an extention contract with us.
We shipped multiple FRPs and pick swaps to OKC.
The best young asset the clippers have is Zubac who has a very low ceiling.

The positive in the long run we have is PG signing that contract.

We definitely need a big move right now because lets face it, we aint winning with this roster especially the nets roster looking like a juggernaut

You don’t trade the young guy that plays defense and showed higher potential for the one way player that’s near retirement

Whats your point?

I didnt say trade Zubac. Im saying that were screwed if we dont win the championship this year. We mortgaged the future of this team for this roster and were not gonna win a ring.

Any realistic big move would require us to match salaries and then find incentive on top of that for a team to do it. Beverly with his injuries I think has entered negative value territory. He has a extra year of money and there is no telling if he could stay healthy long enough to make it worth it for another playoff team. Lou is expiring but you can’t do anything big with the amount he makes and same with Luke

[og15]

You don’t trade the young guy that plays defense and showed higher potential for the one way player that’s near retirement

Whats your point?

I didnt say trade Zubac. Im saying that were screwed if we dont win the championship this year. We mortgaged the future of this team for this roster and were not gonna win a ring.

Any realistic big move would require us to match salaries and then find incentive on top of that for a team to do it. Beverly with his injuries I think has entered negative value territory. He has a extra year of money and there is no telling if he could stay healthy long enough to make it worth it for another playoff team. Lou is expiring but you can’t do anything big with the amount he makes and same with Luke

I think Luke's outgoing salary would be the yearly average of this year and his extension. With the hard cap, this is worse, because the Clippers then need to find a team that can take on that amount without having to send back a similar amount (the average). Luke can basically only be traded to a team under the cap I believe...