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Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN

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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#361 » by clipperlover » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:52 pm

playaloc916 wrote:Looks like Morris should be called Pandemic Mook now... For these playoffs, he's shooting 38%/35%. Last year he shot 51%/48%.

Kawhi and PG seem to be alternating good scoring games. Most of the time, they can't seem to both have good shooting games at the same time.

I think Reggie might be the most consistent player so far in these playoffs. Normally, I'd be pleasantly surprised, but instead, I'm actually disappointed. Disappointed in the sense that he would have been the "x-factor", but our stars can't seem to score as consistently as the opposing team's star(s), and Mook is a complete no-show (if we exclude Game 7, I'd be scared to see his numbers).


Because Kawhi and PG are two way players and the Clips have the PG playmaker, Kawhi and PG have to shoulder more load on both sides of the floor. There is only so much energy you can use and still be effective. It is asking a lot of them to lead the team in pts, rbs, assists, steals and blocks each night while also covering up mistakes on the defensive end.

Dallas had Finney-Smith and Utah has O'Neal to provide defense on the opponents stars. Neither of those players are counted on for their scoring, so they can put all of their energy into their D. The Clips don't have anyone like Finney-Smith or O'Neal, so Kawhi and PG have to pull that duty also. They could do it, but they need other people to shoulder some load.
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#362 » by Clemenza » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:16 pm

clipperlover wrote:
playaloc916 wrote:Looks like Morris should be called Pandemic Mook now... For these playoffs, he's shooting 38%/35%. Last year he shot 51%/48%.

Kawhi and PG seem to be alternating good scoring games. Most of the time, they can't seem to both have good shooting games at the same time.

I think Reggie might be the most consistent player so far in these playoffs. Normally, I'd be pleasantly surprised, but instead, I'm actually disappointed. Disappointed in the sense that he would have been the "x-factor", but our stars can't seem to score as consistently as the opposing team's star(s), and Mook is a complete no-show (if we exclude Game 7, I'd be scared to see his numbers).


Because Kawhi and PG are two way players and the Clips have the PG playmaker, Kawhi and PG have to shoulder more load on both sides of the floor. There is only so much energy you can use and still be effective. It is asking a lot of them to lead the team in pts, rbs, assists, steals and blocks each night while also covering up mistakes on the defensive end.

Dallas had Finney-Smith and Utah has O'Neal to provide defense on the opponents stars. Neither of those players are counted on for their scoring, so they can put all of their energy into their D. The Clips don't have anyone like Finney-Smith or O'Neal, so Kawhi and PG have to pull that duty also. They could do it, but they need other people to shoulder some load.

Exactly, these guys are shouldering a huge load in this postseason
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#363 » by MartinToVaught » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:05 pm

Read on Twitter


This **** only happens to the Clippers. :banghead:
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#364 » by Quake Griffin » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:19 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:
Read on Twitter


This **** only happens to the Clippers. :banghead:

Well, not only do I detest the Make-Or-Miss League Docism. I am doubly less inclined to provide that here to this team. At some point, the trends we are seeing demonstrate something - this team can't shoot under playoff pressure for some reason.

Choking?
Some hex put on us by Vi Stiviano?
Paul George's shaky hand nervousness permeating to the team?

I dunno but whatever it is, I think it would be incredibly naïve for us to just pretend that we will get back to the mean just because. There's enough of a sample size here to demonstrate we lay lots and lots of bricks in the postseason. It's supposed to be Lee Jenkins (Chairman of Clipper Roster Feelings) to figure out wtf is going on here.
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#365 » by MartinToVaught » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:22 pm

I don't expect this team to regress to the mean. I think we're seeing what this team's real mean looks like in the pressure of the playoffs, and it's not pretty.

The stats just quantify the level of choking that's going on here.
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#366 » by jengmann3 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:12 pm

To be honest, the analysis sort of matched the eye test in regards to quality of shots in the fourth, so I wasn't too upset. I've seen a lot of Clippers games this year in which they went Kawhi iso all 4th quarter and it didn't end well. Atleast he was able to attack and get it to open shooters and they just didn't seem to knock them down. Kawhi does need to score a bit more, but I don't care if he's not matching Mitchell shot for shot or if he doesn't go for 35, just need to get the W. Hopefully PG and Kawhi can get into a slightly better rhythm scoring and then Utah can kind of cool off. I always thought Utah was by far the most talented team in the conference. 3 all stars + bogdan, ingles and the 6th man of the year (I honestly think ESPN keeps saying the Clips r the most talented team just to kill them if they don't win, im kind of sick of narratives). But Clarkson and Mitchell got pretty lucky on some of those shots. Even Ingles kissed one off the top of the backboard to tie the game I believe.
Also, got to say, this is why coaching is a bit tough. I liked the minutes defensively for Pat Bev. He really did what they need to do on Mitchell. Can't let him get just rhythm practice 3 point shots with Zubac waiting in the lane off a screen like he had in the 1st half. But I wanted to see Rondo out there a bit as well. I also liked Demarcus minutes, even though he had some bad possessions, but we probably need more Batum minutes.
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#367 » by Clemenza » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:28 pm

Not to be a negative Nancy but how about Doc cutting this guy way back


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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#368 » by clipperlover » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:10 pm

Clemenza wrote:Not to be a negative Nancy but how about Doc cutting this guy way back


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Who then blamed it on the owner who he assumed was Sterling when it was actually Ballmer
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#369 » by TheNewEra » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:46 pm

Clemenza wrote:
clipperlover wrote:
playaloc916 wrote:Looks like Morris should be called Pandemic Mook now... For these playoffs, he's shooting 38%/35%. Last year he shot 51%/48%.

Kawhi and PG seem to be alternating good scoring games. Most of the time, they can't seem to both have good shooting games at the same time.

I think Reggie might be the most consistent player so far in these playoffs. Normally, I'd be pleasantly surprised, but instead, I'm actually disappointed. Disappointed in the sense that he would have been the "x-factor", but our stars can't seem to score as consistently as the opposing team's star(s), and Mook is a complete no-show (if we exclude Game 7, I'd be scared to see his numbers).


Because Kawhi and PG are two way players and the Clips have the PG playmaker, Kawhi and PG have to shoulder more load on both sides of the floor. There is only so much energy you can use and still be effective. It is asking a lot of them to lead the team in pts, rbs, assists, steals and blocks each night while also covering up mistakes on the defensive end.

Dallas had Finney-Smith and Utah has O'Neal to provide defense on the opponents stars. Neither of those players are counted on for their scoring, so they can put all of their energy into their D. The Clips don't have anyone like Finney-Smith or O'Neal, so Kawhi and PG have to pull that duty also. They could do it, but they need other people to shoulder some load.

Exactly, these guys are shouldering a huge load in this postseason


I could see this point if we were actually locking players down
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#370 » by og15 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:09 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:
Read on Twitter


This **** only happens to the Clippers. :banghead:

Like I said, the Clippers created open looks. The Jazz didn't particularly create better looks, they just made more shots. I know it seems wild, but odds wise, this is such a small sample size of games between this series and the Dallas series that it can happen, but it still sucks.

Now, forgetting about that, communication on defense is still a problem. Of course every team will have a lapse here or there, but there were some plays in the second half where the communication was not good enough when doubling Mitchell and it led to easy baskets. Both Morris/Jackson rotating out to the shooter and leaving Gobert, and no one picking up Ingles who was strolling down the court because both Bev and Jackson decided to pick up the same player. Those glaringly obvious ones as the plays they just need to clean up defensively.
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#371 » by og15 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:32 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:
Read on Twitter


This **** only happens to the Clippers. :banghead:

Well, not only do I detest the Make-Or-Miss League Docism. I am doubly less inclined to provide that here to this team. At some point, the trends we are seeing demonstrate something - this team can't shoot under playoff pressure for some reason.

Choking?
Some hex put on us by Vi Stiviano?
Paul George's shaky hand nervousness permeating to the team?

I dunno but whatever it is, I think it would be incredibly naïve for us to just pretend that we will get back to the mean just because. There's enough of a sample size here to demonstrate we lay lots and lots of bricks in the postseason. It's supposed to be Lee Jenkins (Chairman of Clipper Roster Feelings) to figure out wtf is going on here.

Of course while the phrase can be overused, it is reality. Clippers did shoot 41.1% 3PT in the regular season, but Kennard did take 224 of those three's (9%), and he's only played 3 of the 9 playoff games so far and taken just 5% of the total three's, that could be a factor. Overall in the post-season, the team is at 37.3% 3PT technically not bad. Even consistency wise, they have shot ~37% 3PT or higher in 7/9 games, the actual problem is that they have not had hot games like they did in the regular season. If you keep creating those shots, you're not supposed to miss forever, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

During the regular season, they shot above that 41.1% 3PT mark 40 times (55.6% of games), and 27 of those were 45%+ (37.5% of games). In the post-season they have only eclipsed the 41.4% mark once, game 7 vs Dallas. Now someone might argue playoffs, better defenses, and while true, Dallas wasn't particularly good on defense.

The Clippers Ortg is at 119.7 (BBallref numbers), above their regular season 117.6 and 5th in the playoffs. vs Utah in the two games, they posted 118.1 Ortg (Game 1) and 115.0 Ortg (Game 2). Certainly above average and good offensive production overall without saying they should have made this or that shot at this or that time. So one a large scale, the same problem as the Dallas series remains. Can't defend well enough and need to out-offense their opponents which leaves a lot less room for error.

Now, PG is a big culprit, and his decrease can also be expected, because he takes the most off dribble and isolation type three's on the team, so the less efficient overall three's. In the playoffs, those shots are more likely to miss more often vs the catch and shoot and open ones. One his career, PG goes down 3.2% from 3PT range from RS to PS. So PG is down 8.3% 3PT, and that hurts the team numbers. Minus George, the team is shooting 38.7% 3PT, better, but still not as good as the regular season since Morris is also down. Efficiency wise though, PG subsidized his efficiency with FT's, where his FT rate has about doubled in the post-season, and therefore his overall shooting efficiency is not much different, 59.8% TS regular season to 58.2% TS playoffs.

All in all, it is certainly tough, Clippers have issues defensively, but their opponents have also have shooting that is exceeding what is supposed to happen on average in those situations. That part you really can't control. It's not a coincidence that Utah transformed it's offense from 35.2 3PT (10th) last season to 43.0 3PT (1st) this season. They know the power of the 3PT shot, especially in the modern day.
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#372 » by Max Headrom » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:29 pm

What's pissing me off is all the fouls they call on Zu on screens but have yet to call one on Gobert when he's hip checking and setting screens using his elbows and pushing. If you're gonna call it, call it both ways
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#373 » by Roscoe Sheed » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:36 pm

Max Headrom wrote:What's pissing me off is all the fouls they call on Zu on screens but have yet to call one on Gobert when he's hip checking and setting screens using his elbows and pushing. If you're gonna call it, call it both ways

Totally agree- on one of the screens Gobert set, it was very egregious- he moved several times basically like an offensive lineman in football
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#374 » by esqtvd » Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:05 am

og15 wrote:Of course while the phrase ["Make or Miss League"] can be overused, it is reality. Clippers did shoot 41.1% 3PT in the regular season, but Kennard did take 224 of those three's (9%), and he's only played 3 of the 9 playoff games so far and taken just 5% of the total three's, that could be a factor. Overall in the post-season, the team is at 37.3% 3PT technically not bad. Even consistency wise, they have shot ~37% 3PT or higher in 7/9 games, the actual problem is that they have not had hot games like they did in the regular season. If you keep creating those shots, you're not supposed to miss forever, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

During the regular season, they shot above that 41.1% 3PT mark 40 times (55.6% of games), and 27 of those were 45%+ (37.5% of games). In the post-season they have only eclipsed the 41.4% mark once, game 7 vs Dallas. Now someone might argue playoffs, better defenses, and while true, Dallas wasn't particularly good on defense.

The Clippers Ortg is at 119.7 (BBallref numbers), above their regular season 117.6 and 5th in the playoffs. vs Utah in the two games, they posted 118.1 Ortg (Game 1) and 115.0 Ortg (Game 2). Certainly above average and good offensive production overall without saying they should have made this or that shot at this or that time. So one a large scale, the same problem as the Dallas series remains. Can't defend well enough and need to out-offense their opponents which leaves a lot less room for error.

Now, PG is a big culprit, and his decrease can also be expected, because he takes the most off dribble and isolation type three's on the team, so the less efficient overall three's. In the playoffs, those shots are more likely to miss more often vs the catch and shoot and open ones. One his career, PG goes down 3.2% from 3PT range from RS to PS. So PG is down 8.3% 3PT, and that hurts the team numbers. Minus George, the team is shooting 38.7% 3PT, better, but still not as good as the regular season since Morris is also down. Efficiency wise though, PG subsidized his efficiency with FT's, where his FT rate has about doubled in the post-season, and therefore his overall shooting efficiency is not much different, 59.8% TS regular season to 58.2% TS playoffs.

All in all, it is certainly tough, Clippers have issues defensively, but their opponents have also have shooting that is exceeding what is supposed to happen on average in those situations. That part you really can't control. It's not a coincidence that Utah transformed it's offense from 35.2 3PT (10th) last season to 43.0 3PT (1st) this season. They know the power of the 3PT shot, especially in the modern day.



Thanks. Good stuff. The game was won and lost on the floor, as most of them are.

    The Clippers had been so wary of driving into the paint and tempting the shot-blocking prowess of Utah’s 7-foot Rudy Gobert that their drive-and-pass offense that helped them generate one of the NBA’s largest percentages of wide-open shots during the regular season was effectively neutered.

    Yet with little working, they began dribbling downhill and kicking the ball to open shooters, who knocked down 12 of 19 shots in the third quarter.

    But the Clippers could not finish the job. Jackson’s three-pointer was their one and only lead. They missed their next nine shots, outscored 14-4 over the next five minutes.

    “Four or five wide open threes,” Lue said. “We just didn’t make them.”

https://www.latimes.com/sports/clippers/story/2021-06-10/clippers-jazz-game-2-donovan-mitchell-37-points
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#375 » by esqtvd » Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:09 am

clipperlover wrote:I think there is a way that we can get Lue to make the right adjustments. We need Morris to get into foul trouble early in every game, so Lue benches him. Boogie has contributed more in much less time this series. Plus, Boogie can body up on Gobert. The issue for Boogie is that he is trying to do too much because he knows his time is limited. Lue needs to be forced to leave him in there longer.

Does Boogie impact things defensively, yes? However, he adds a level of toughness that is missing and he can rebound and get to the FT line. Lue needs to find a way to take advantage of what Boogie can provide.



two-edged sword :-(

    Utah ended the first half on a 14-3 run over three minutes, which began when backup center DeMarcus Cousins’ minutes outlived their effectiveness. In less than 80 seconds, Cousins traveled, missed a three-pointer and was blocked at the rim by Rudy Gobert, and Utah seized on the empty possessions, scoring six points to take their first double-digit lead.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/clippers/story/2021-06-10/clippers-jazz-game-2-donovan-mitchell-37-points
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#376 » by clipperlover » Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:53 am

esqtvd wrote:
clipperlover wrote:I think there is a way that we can get Lue to make the right adjustments. We need Morris to get into foul trouble early in every game, so Lue benches him. Boogie has contributed more in much less time this series. Plus, Boogie can body up on Gobert. The issue for Boogie is that he is trying to do too much because he knows his time is limited. Lue needs to be forced to leave him in there longer.

Does Boogie impact things defensively, yes? However, he adds a level of toughness that is missing and he can rebound and get to the FT line. Lue needs to find a way to take advantage of what Boogie can provide.



two-edged sword :-(

    Utah ended the first half on a 14-3 run over three minutes, which began when backup center DeMarcus Cousins’ minutes outlived their effectiveness. In less than 80 seconds, Cousins traveled, missed a three-pointer and was blocked at the rim by Rudy Gobert, and Utah seized on the empty possessions, scoring six points to take their first double-digit lead.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/clippers/story/2021-06-10/clippers-jazz-game-2-donovan-mitchell-37-points


A good case could be made that Boogie and Morris should never be on the court together.
PG, Kawhi, PB, Batum and Boogie are a much better combination than PG, Kawhi, PB, Morris and Boogie (the lineup during most of that run)
Jazz had Bogdanovic, Ingles, O'Neal, Gobert and Mitchell on the court
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#377 » by playaloc916 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:09 am

clipperlover wrote:
playaloc916 wrote:Looks like Morris should be called Pandemic Mook now... For these playoffs, he's shooting 38%/35%. Last year he shot 51%/48%.

Kawhi and PG seem to be alternating good scoring games. Most of the time, they can't seem to both have good shooting games at the same time.

I think Reggie might be the most consistent player so far in these playoffs. Normally, I'd be pleasantly surprised, but instead, I'm actually disappointed. Disappointed in the sense that he would have been the "x-factor", but our stars can't seem to score as consistently as the opposing team's star(s), and Mook is a complete no-show (if we exclude Game 7, I'd be scared to see his numbers).


Because Kawhi and PG are two way players and the Clips have the PG playmaker, Kawhi and PG have to shoulder more load on both sides of the floor. There is only so much energy you can use and still be effective. It is asking a lot of them to lead the team in pts, rbs, assists, steals and blocks each night while also covering up mistakes on the defensive end.

Dallas had Finney-Smith and Utah has O'Neal to provide defense on the opponents stars. Neither of those players are counted on for their scoring, so they can put all of their energy into their D. The Clips don't have anyone like Finney-Smith or O'Neal, so Kawhi and PG have to pull that duty also. They could do it, but they need other people to shoulder some load.

I'm wondering if Mann could be our Finney-Smith or O'Neal... Against Dallas he could drive and play downhill, but in this series with Gobert in the paint, he could focus on defense instead. I think Bev and Mann could take turns defending Mitchell, and that should lessen the defensive load on Kawhi and PG.
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Post#378 » by Wammy Giveaway » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:47 am

Suns automatically win the series.

Read on Twitter


This will be Chris Paul's first ever conference finals berth without a Team USA affiliate.

If - or when - Clippers find a way to get out of the 2nd round, their first ever conference finals opponent will be their former savior. Their loyalty towards players like Paul will be put to the ultimate test.
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#379 » by Catchall » Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:56 am

Quake Griffin wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:
Read on Twitter


This **** only happens to the Clippers. :banghead:

Well, not only do I detest the Make-Or-Miss League Docism. I am doubly less inclined to provide that here to this team. At some point, the trends we are seeing demonstrate something - this team can't shoot under playoff pressure for some reason.

Choking?
Some hex put on us by Vi Stiviano?
Paul George's shaky hand nervousness permeating to the team?

I dunno but whatever it is, I think it would be incredibly naïve for us to just pretend that we will get back to the mean just because. There's enough of a sample size here to demonstrate we lay lots and lots of bricks in the postseason. It's supposed to be Lee Jenkins (Chairman of Clipper Roster Feelings) to figure out wtf is going on here.


Does the shot-quality analysis account for who is actually taking the shots? For example, Donovan Mitchell might hit difficult shots more reliably than Pat Beverly hits open, quality shots.
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Re: Round 2: Game 2 - Clippers vs Jazz - 7pm ESPN 

Post#380 » by Catchall » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:04 am

playaloc916 wrote:
clipperlover wrote:
playaloc916 wrote:Looks like Morris should be called Pandemic Mook now... For these playoffs, he's shooting 38%/35%. Last year he shot 51%/48%.

Kawhi and PG seem to be alternating good scoring games. Most of the time, they can't seem to both have good shooting games at the same time.

I think Reggie might be the most consistent player so far in these playoffs. Normally, I'd be pleasantly surprised, but instead, I'm actually disappointed. Disappointed in the sense that he would have been the "x-factor", but our stars can't seem to score as consistently as the opposing team's star(s), and Mook is a complete no-show (if we exclude Game 7, I'd be scared to see his numbers).


Because Kawhi and PG are two way players and the Clips have the PG playmaker, Kawhi and PG have to shoulder more load on both sides of the floor. There is only so much energy you can use and still be effective. It is asking a lot of them to lead the team in pts, rbs, assists, steals and blocks each night while also covering up mistakes on the defensive end.

Dallas had Finney-Smith and Utah has O'Neal to provide defense on the opponents stars. Neither of those players are counted on for their scoring, so they can put all of their energy into their D. The Clips don't have anyone like Finney-Smith or O'Neal, so Kawhi and PG have to pull that duty also. They could do it, but they need other people to shoulder some load.

I'm wondering if Mann could be our Finney-Smith or O'Neal... Against Dallas he could drive and play downhill, but in this series with Gobert in the paint, he could focus on defense instead. I think Bev and Mann could take turns defending Mitchell, and that should lessen the defensive load on Kawhi and PG.


The issue is that if a defensive player (like Mann or Beverly) is also a below-average offensive player, then the Jazz will leave him open to double another player like Kawhi or Paul George. So now Kawhi and PG have someone to take defensive pressure off of them, but the spacing on offense is worse and it's more difficult for them to score. The Jazz simply won't guard below-average offensive players and will force them to make shots.

The Clippers are at their best offensively if the floor is spaced, and this is why Ty Lue is reluctant to give big minutes to guys who don't have the gravity to draw a defender.
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