Clippers Pursuing the Logo (West Joins #ClipCityChipCity!)

[Ranma]

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[Quake Griffin]

I love that he said the teams that do best are the risk takers and the teams that can look into the future - something I’ve been saying for a while now....something I’m sure he knows.

Surprised he doesn’t think much of the Staples Center.
The only other NBA arenas I’ve been in are the Target Center and the United Center and they never made me think Staples Center was missing something.




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[Ranma]

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[mkwest]

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I saw this...

Read on Twitter

but i hadn't seen/heard the full West interview. I'm so thankful that Ballmer has replaced the former regime. It doesn't matter now, but sometimes I used to wonder what could have been if West became a consultant for the Clippers about a decade ago. After his stint with the Grizzlies, he used to spend time at the Clippers HQ visiting with good friend and ex-teammate, Baylor. The Clippers wanted to give Baylor a celebratory position, but limit his involvement in the decision-making. Baylor looked at that scenario as a slap in the face after 22 years of excellence. West wouldn't have had anything to do with the Clippers under the former ownership. To hear him rave about Ballmer and the rest of of FO is wonderful. He's been on the record of saying that he began feeling like an afterthought and unwanted in GSW. The Lakers could have brought him back under some capacity, but declined. Their loss is our gain.

[QRich3]

Watch on YouTube

I saw this...

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

but i hadn't seen/heard the full West interview. I'm so thankful that Ballmer has replaced the former regime. It doesn't matter now, but sometimes I used to wonder what could have been if West became a consultant for the Clippers about a decade ago. After his stint with the Grizzlies, he used to spend time at the Clippers HQ visiting with good friend and ex-teammate, Baylor. The Clippers wanted to give Baylor a celebratory position, but limit his involvement in the decision-making. Baylor looked at that scenario as a slap in the face after 22 years of excellence. West wouldn't have had anything to do with the Clippers under the former ownership. To hear him rave about Ballmer and the rest of of FO is wonderful. He's been on the record of saying that he began feeling like an afterthought and unwanted in GSW. The Lakers could have brought him back under some capacity, but declined. Their loss is our gain.

If Ballmer and West had both came in during the last season of Vinny instead of when they did, we probably have a championship right now. Pairing the stability and savvy of the current front office with the incredible luck of falling into a 25yo perennial top 5 player and a superstar rookie like Blake, even with all the bad luck we've had over the years, I'd be surprised if we don't get over the hill at least once.

Not sure what would happen if they came in before Olshey, cause he was instrumental to building that team, and who knows what decisions they would've taken instead. But I always like to fantasize about giving the current FO those foundations.

[Quake Griffin]

I shared a similar sentiment in another thread and got attacked for it.

I definitely think this group would have got Chris, Blake, and DeAndre over the hump.

[wco81]

Well Doc already said it.

He said the Warriors were "lucky" they didn't have to face the Clippers in 2015 when they won their first title.

Then the Warriors beat them like 12 straight or something like that.

But in the 2014 playoffs, the last year under Mark Jackson and with I think both Bogut and Lee out, Warriors took Clippers to 7 games and almost won game 7 at LA.

As it turns out, I think that series and game propelled the current core. Of course there were other reasons why they took a jump but even in losing that series, the team became stronger as Green took on a bigger role in the absence of Lee and Bogut in that series.

The year before, they had made the second round, upsetting Denver which had won 57 games that year and taking the Spurs to 6 games. So it was disappointing to exit in the first round in 2015 but I think that competitive series was a big part of their growth.

[esqtvd]

Watch on YouTube

I saw this...

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

but i hadn't seen/heard the full West interview. I'm so thankful that Ballmer has replaced the former regime. It doesn't matter now, but sometimes I used to wonder what could have been if West became a consultant for the Clippers about a decade ago. After his stint with the Grizzlies, he used to spend time at the Clippers HQ visiting with good friend and ex-teammate, Baylor. The Clippers wanted to give Baylor a celebratory position, but limit his involvement in the decision-making. Baylor looked at that scenario as a slap in the face after 22 years of excellence. West wouldn't have had anything to do with the Clippers under the former ownership. To hear him rave about Ballmer and the rest of of FO is wonderful. He's been on the record of saying that he began feeling like an afterthought and unwanted in GSW. The Lakers could have brought him back under some capacity, but declined. Their loss is our gain.

If Ballmer and West had both came in during the last season of Vinny instead of when they did, we probably have a championship right now. Pairing the stability and savvy of the current front office with the incredible luck of falling into a 25yo perennial top 5 player and a superstar rookie like Blake, even with all the bad luck we've had over the years, I'd be surprised if we don't get over the hill at least once.

Not sure what would happen if they came in before Olshey, cause he was instrumental to building that team, and who knows what decisions they would've taken instead. But I always like to fantasize about giving the current FO those foundations.

It's impossible to argue against Jerry West's rep but the real sticking point here is Donald Sterling. Had Steve Ballmer been the owner, we wouldn't have had the smallest and cheapest scouting department in the league, zero development coaching, and the worst sports medicine department in the history of sports. Under Ballmer, the FO staff has doubled and its budget surely far more than that.

We have Michael Winger just doing contracts and Lee Jenkins has gotta be making a million a year just to be the Director of Atmospherics or something, ffs. Looking back, it's a miracle Doc convinced anybody to come here of their own free will.

Offering players lower salaries than they deserve, keeping down coaching costs, training camp costs and day-to-day expenses isn't anything new, even if Sterling did take it to another level.

However, when it comes to the health of the team's players, doesn't it seem as if the term, "spare no expense" should pop up?

Not if you're Donald Sterling.

In his first season as the team's owner, Sterling once famously asked head coach Paul Silas if he thought they really needed a trainer.

What initially sounds as if it could be nothing but a joke, Sterling took it to the next level by asking Silas if he could tape players up himself before games.

I'd call that a bad omen for the next three decades if there ever was one.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1677590-donald-sterlings-cheapest-moments-as-la-clippers-owner#slide8

[QRich3]

Looking back, it's a miracle Doc convinced anybody to come here of their own free will.

lol come on now, I'm the first to frown upon some people's unhealthy obsession with anything Doc related, but pushing too far the other way is not smart either. Doc inherited a good FO, one that had built the best team we ever had, and he pushed aside very smart people like Gary Sacks so he could grab more power with some of his people like Dave Wohl, clearly not as smart as Sacks. The narrative that no one wanted to come work for him is completely false and unnecessary.

There are enough things Doc did well that you don't need to make up imaginary obstacles. He did turn the Clippers into a pace & space P&R oriented team when he traded Bledsoe for Redick and Dudley, and even if Dudley ended up sucking, that mere idea was one of the main reasons we became as good as we did. Now everyone plays that way, but very few did when he implemented that vision.

But he did ruin that team's chances at success with a bunch of boneheaded moves after that, which pretty much guaranteed he won't ever have a FO job again. He knows this, everyone knows this, he is still an awesome coach, no need to put make up on it.

[esqtvd]

Looking back, it's a miracle Doc convinced anybody to come here of their own free will.

Doc inherited a good FO

um, no

the Clips org, even after Dunleavy's marginal success in turning it professional, was still the worst in the NBA--especially the scouting, where Doc takes his biggest lumps

we could litigate this, Q, but there's really no point
I don't want to argue with you as you're one of the sane ones hereabouts
if you're really interested I'll send some links but I've already researched this for my own edification

now there are like 6 guys doing what Doc used to do all by himself

and again, for the record, I'm glad he's been moved out
and so is he, in retrospect
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/03/20/life-after-presidency-how-doc-rivers-gained-by-losing-power/?noredirect=on

but the problem was first and foremost Donald Sterling
had Steve Ballmer been the owner at the beginning of the CP-BG Golden Era, things may have been way different

had there been today's FO when Sterling was owner
well there COULDN'T have been
no budget, plus Sterling was disgusting

and that's the point I'm making
Doc made the best of a hideous situation

[QRich3]

Yeah, let's not get too deep into this discussion, but I don't agree with you there, at all. Olshey built a good team, and he was a GM with a scouting background. Most of them remained here when he left for Portland (yeah, because DTS didn't want to pay him), and that team worked. It worked a lot better than what Doc substituted them with.

Doc didn't have the best situation under Sterling, we agree there, but he did far from the best out of it. Very far.

[Quake Griffin]

Oh a deep discussion is coming.

[esqtvd]

Yeah, let's not get too deep into this discussion, but I don't agree with you there, at all. Olshey built a good team, and he was a GM with a scouting background. Most of them remained here when he left for Portland (yeah, because DTS didn't want to pay him), and that team worked. It worked a lot better than what Doc substituted them with.

Doc didn't have the best situation under Sterling, we agree there, but he did far from the best out of it. Very far.

No way to argue factually on that last point. But if part of being a GM is getting lucky now and then, it's indisputable Doc never did, in trades or in the draft. But IMO, Doc's value while in 'win now' mode with crummy picks and no sal cap room was in persuading serviceable vets to come here and play for the minimum or close to it. No pencil-neck GM in a suit is gonna be able to do that.

As for Olshey, that's subjective too. Here's a look at his record:

https://www.blazersedge.com/2018/6/14/17462394/neil-olshey-general-manager-portland-trail-blazers-los-angeles-clippers

If Doc had drafted Aminu ahead of the next two picks, Gordon Hayward and Paul George, we'd never hear the end of it. And that goes double for the Baron Davis trade. Olshey's getting an easy ride here.

[QRich3]

No way to argue factually on that last point.

No, but this is as close to universal agreement as you're gonna get. You're alone here, you might as well be arguing for Trey Thompkins as the GOAT over Jordan, Kareem, Lebron and them. Doc did bad as GM, and it's ok. He knows it, Ballmer knows it, we all know it. He's still very good at what he does, he's happy doing it and not GMing again. No need to argue for the sake of arguing.

As for Olshey, you can go and point to his biggest mistakes and he still ends up looking good. Aminu was an integral part of the Chris Paul trade, the biggest move this franchise has ever done. You don't go getting on Danny Ainge's case cause Isaiah Thomas became crap after the trade, you give him respect cause he turned him into Kyrie Irving anyway. Same in Olshey's case with Aminu. And Baron's trade was all DTS, and Olshey hinted at it even though he defended Sterling with a straight face, cause that was his job, to keep the owner happy while building a contender. An impossible task that he did impeccably. However, this was about the team he left behind, and there was no doubt they were very competent. They built that contender, they found a gem in the draft like Bled, that they went out of their way to get, and found several rotation players with 2nd rounders. And again, they built a contender. The narrative that Doc couldn't find people to work for him is dead with this, he got rid of most of these guys willingly.

[esqtvd]

No way to argue factually on that last point.

No, but this is as close to universal agreement as you're gonna get. You're alone here, you might as well be arguing for Trey Thompkins as the GOAT over Jordan, Kareem, Lebron and them. Doc did bad as GM, and it's ok. He knows it, Ballmer knows it, we all know it. He's still very good at what he does, he's happy doing it and not GMing again. No need to argue for the sake of arguing.

As for Olshey, you can go and point to his biggest mistakes and he still ends up looking good. Aminu was an integral part of the Chris Paul trade, the biggest move this franchise has ever done. You don't go getting on Danny Ainge's case cause Isaiah Thomas became crap after the trade, you give him respect cause he turned him into Kyrie Irving anyway. Same in Olshey's case with Aminu. And Baron's trade was all DTS, and Olshey hinted at it even though he defended Sterling with a straight face, cause that was his job, to keep the owner happy while building a contender. An impossible task that he did impeccably. However, this was about the team he left behind, and there was no doubt they were very competent. They built that contender, they found a gem in the draft like Bled, that they went out of their way to get, and found several rotation players with 2nd rounders. And again, they built a contender. The narrative that Doc couldn't find people to work for him is dead with this, he got rid of most of these guys willingly.

I don't know how much credit Doc gets for completely replacing the entire scouting department in September 2016, but it shows just what crap it was under Sterling. And again, West would never have agreed to work for Sterling, and guys like Michael Winger and of course Lee Jenkins were far beyond any conceivable Sterling budgeting. What Doc had to work with under Sterling is apples and oranges compared to the situation under Ballmer and why there's no way to argue it factually.

As for Olshey, I repeat that if Doc had passed on Gordon Hayward and Paul George to draft Al-Farouk Freaking Aminu, they'd still be harping on it. Perception equals reality, and I don't mind being "alone" questioning these pat narratives that are founded more on animus than fact.

[Quake Griffin]

A few years ago I asked this forum if we could get Oshey back. Ranma and MTV (“they” if we’re being honest) were not big on the idea n cited his record for why not...including Aminu.

It’s not personal.
It never is.
Only on your end.

Try again.

[esqtvd]

read what I wrote again

or don't

[Quake Griffin]

No.

[Vae Victus]

Esqtvd can you stop with the whole defending Doc wasnt one of the WORST PoBO ever. If you polled every group of people out there from NBA pundits, GMs, neutral fanbases, Clipper fans, etc, Doc would rate INCREDIBLY poorly as a GM.

Literally almost every move Doc made as GM was both short sided and poorly executed. Numerous assets were wasted and thus a team couldnt be built around CP3, Blake, and DJ. The whole handling of the Baby Rivers fiasco was emblematic of Doc's tenure as PoBO. A player he obviously couldnt let go/bench due to being his goddamn son. The moment Kid Rivers leaves his daddy's protective sheltering where he was allowed to do whatever he wants, he trashes it up in WAS, gets traded to a team that desperately needs a PG in PHX who proceeds to buy him out cuz he's a scrub, then latches onto a DESPERATE HOU team that were full of injuries where he had a nice 10 game burst then proceeds to trash it up again.

Doc was a TERRIBLE GM. Hell, i ask you to tell me one overall good move he made that wasnt a no brainer (like signing a decent old vet to a min deal), that the Clippers won? I'm 100% sure whatever it is i can EASILY destroy it and show how it wasnt a good move at all for the Clips.

But as a coach i'll give him props. i thought he was overrated as all hell and was carried by talent and firmly believed that if another top tier coach was brought in (Pop. Carlisle) they'd have the LobCityClips win a chip or two. This year he's really made me eat crow and am actually glad (man i never woulda thought id say this EVER) that Ballmer decided to keep him on as coach.

Anyway since this is a thread about the Logo i gotta say. The more one looks at the moves he made the more in awe you gotta be about em.

Lemme give everyone an example. Lets say Kawhi signs (or any other single Tier 1 FA), but a 2nd Tier 1 FA doesnt join him (KD, Kyrie, Klay, etc). Thus the team doesnt move Gallo and then has like 24m in cap space to fill out the team, before needing to go over the cap to re-sign Zubac. The extra cap could be spread out among our current FAs like PatBev and JaMychal Green or to try to convince a really good but not Tier 1 FA to sign (like a Vucevic or Middleton type). The key is to sign players on value deals similar to Lou Will and Harrell, IE easily moved for assets if they play well. The team then has Gallo's expiring, JRobinson, 2020 PHI prot FRP, 2021 MIA FRP to play with in case a superstar FA becomes disgruntled.

Now lets say AD becomes a FA due to him not being happy with the team that traded for him. Or maybe a superstar is disgruntled and the team trading him would like to outright get out from under his contract for FRPs.

Gallo + Harrell expires so that frees up 30mil. Then the team could try to trade some of their 2019 FAs to open up the rest of the cap OR they can just decline Lou Will's 8 mil team option (lets say father time claims him). Its INSANE to see the amount of flexibility the team has to add FAs over the course of the next 2 offseason. THIS is a PRIME example of a BRILLIANT FO able to properly plan for the future and thus give themselves the chance to be able to pounce on opportunities like a disgruntled superstar when it presents themselves.

This is the type of stuff that someone like Doc had absolutely no hope of ever matching and thus would never lead a team anywhere if he had remained PoBO.

[esqtvd]

Esqtvd can you stop with the whole defending Doc wasnt one of the WORST PoBO ever. If you polled every group of people out there from NBA pundits, GMs, neutral fanbases, Clipper fans, etc, Doc would rate INCREDIBLY poorly as a GM.

"In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "argument to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so."

I don't mind taking an unpopular opinion. It's much more interesting than dogpiling.

Literally almost every move Doc made as GM was both short sided and poorly executed. Numerous assets were wasted and thus a team couldnt be built around CP3, Blake, and DJ. The whole handling of the Baby Rivers fiasco was emblematic of Doc's tenure as PoBO. A player he obviously couldnt let go/bench due to being his goddamn son. The moment Kid Rivers leaves his daddy's protective sheltering where he was allowed to do whatever he wants, he trashes it up in WAS, gets traded to a team that desperately needs a PG in PHX who proceeds to buy him out cuz he's a scrub, then latches onto a DESPERATE HOU team that were full of injuries where he had a nice 10 game burst then proceeds to trash it up again.

Doc was a TERRIBLE GM. Hell, i ask you to tell me one overall good move he made that wasnt a no brainer (like signing a decent old vet to a min deal), that the Clippers won? I'm 100% sure whatever it is i can EASILY destroy it and show how it wasnt a good move at all for the Clips.

But as a coach i'll give him props. i thought he was overrated as all hell and was carried by talent and firmly believed that if another top tier coach was brought in (Pop. Carlisle) they'd have the LobCityClips win a chip or two. This year he's really made me eat crow and am actually glad (man i never woulda thought id say this EVER) that Ballmer decided to keep him on as coach.

Anyway since this is a thread about the Logo i gotta say. The more one looks at the moves he made the more in awe you gotta be about em.

Lemme give everyone an example. Lets say Kawhi signs (or any other single Tier 1 FA), but a 2nd Tier 1 FA doesnt join him (KD, Kyrie, Klay, etc). Thus the team doesnt move Gallo and then has like 24m in cap space to fill out the team, before needing to go over the cap to re-sign Zubac. The extra cap could be spread out among our current FAs like PatBev and JaMychal Green or to try to convince a really good but not Tier 1 FA to sign (like a Vucevic or Middleton type). The key is to sign players on value deals similar to Lou Will and Harrell, IE easily moved for assets if they play well. The team then has Gallo's expiring, JRobinson, 2020 PHI prot FRP, 2021 MIA FRP to play with in case a superstar FA becomes disgruntled.

Now lets say AD becomes a FA due to him not being happy with the team that traded for him. Or maybe a superstar is disgruntled and the team trading him would like to outright get out from under his contract for FRPs.

Gallo + Harrell expires so that frees up 30mil. Then the team could try to trade some of their 2019 FAs to open up the rest of the cap OR they can just decline Lou Will's 8 mil team option (lets say father time claims him). Its INSANE to see the amount of flexibility the team has to add FAs over the course of the next 2 offseason. THIS is a PRIME example of a BRILLIANT FO able to properly plan for the future and thus give themselves the chance to be able to pounce on opportunities like a disgruntled superstar when it presents themselves.

This is the type of stuff that someone like Doc had absolutely no hope of ever matching and thus would never lead a team anywhere if he had remained PoBO.

My argument is basically that Doc did well enough for the circumstances of having the toad Donald Sterling as owner, no sal cap room or decent draft picks, and that we were in 'win now' mode, trying to keep CP and BG on the farm. Doc retooled the FO from top to bottom, and even hired his own replacement, and along the way managed to talk a number of serviceable FAs to come play here for next to nothing.

I would not suggest Doc would be the choice for the team we have now, in redevelopment mode, with cap flexibility and an owner with bottomless pockets. I would try to get a Jerry West, hire a creative math wizard GM like Michael Winger, and throw a million dollars a year at some sportswriter like Lee Jenkins to be my "Director of Intangibles" or something.