Game 52: Los Angeles Clippers (36-15) @ Minnesota Timberwolves (15-35) - 8:00 PM ET

[NippySudz]

The inconsistencies on the defensive end aren't surprising and I never really understood how the media hyped this team to be such a an elite defensive team with guys like Zubac, Shamet, Lou and Harrell having to play real defensive reps.

I will say that Kawhi took the regular season off defensively with us. He'll turn it on in the playoffs. The dirty secret on our team was that statistically and per eye test, he wasn't even one of our top 2 defenders last year (Siakam, Danny and OG were quite good and then Marc/Kyle are in a different stratosphere IQ and team D wise)


Ultimately you guys need an anchor at the 5 imo

We have an anchor at the 5. We need our coach to recognize this and play him more.

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I agree, he needs more mins but zubac wasn't going to help last night. He cannot guard a stretch 5. Neither can Harrell. Gasol could, but eh wet dream.

I don't trust zu or Harrell in the playoffs. I trust trezz to score and bleed points in the playoffs. I don't trust zu against skilled centers/bigs in the playoffs. He did a good job on jokic when the clips played the nuggets but I don't think he can do that 4 of 7 games.

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[esqtvd]

Denver has the same issues as the clippers and Denver isn't load managing their best player. They're 22-8 against sub 500 teams..clippers are 22-7.

The rockets have gave up 150 points and a couple of 140 point games and got beat by the suns by 30

Thread winner. It happens to everybody. These guys are only human, and not only that, you're an idiot if you get yourself hurt in a meaningless game like this one.

As for "rim protection," as above, it's not really an operative term in today's NBA. Anything short of a Gobert isn't really worth the tradeoff. Zubac is at best a poor man's Valanciunas, whom the Raptors dumped for Gasol, a more modern center.

[MartinToVaught]

I see your viewpoint and respectfully disagree.

I think you're taking a cynical approach. Championships are hard to win in the first yr. Rarely happens where a newly assembled team wins the championship the first yr.

Very true, it's just tough because we don't have all the time in the world to figure things out with Kawhi and PG's short-term deals. The ups and downs of the first year would be easier to accept if they were both on longer-term deals.

I know bad habits are formed and that should be taken into consideration as well, those can come back to bite you so they need to cut it out but at the same time, I just saw a football team that couldn't guard the run. Defense wasn't good at guarding the run and saw them down in each round of the playoffs only to win the Superbowl.

To be fair, the Chiefs' defense did improve a lot throughout the season thanks to Spagnuolo. By the AFC title game, they had improved enough to limit Derrick Henry to only 69 rushing yards, which would have never happened with Sutton's defenses. And Shanahan went back to his own bad habit of going away from the run in the Super Bowl.

[MartinToVaught]

Zubac is at best a poor man's Valanciunas

Zubac is 22 years old. He's already a very good defender according to the metrics and the eye test, and he's not even in his prime yet. It's way too soon to start making judgements like this about his career.

[esqtvd]

Zubac is at best a poor man's Valanciunas

Zubac is 22 years old. He's already a very good defender according to the metrics and the eye test, and he's not even in his prime yet. It's way too soon to start making judgements like this about his career.

I didn't

[MartinToVaught]

Zubac is at best a poor man's Valanciunas

Zubac is 22 years old. He's already a very good defender according to the metrics and the eye test, and he's not even in his prime yet. It's way too soon to start making judgements like this about his career.

I didn't

But you did. You've already concluded that Zubac is "at best a poor man's Valanciunas." You also tried to diminish Zubac's statistical accomplishments by claiming that rim protection isn't worth much in today's league, unless you have Rudy Gobert.

[esqtvd]

Zubac is 22 years old. He's already a very good defender according to the metrics and the eye test, and he's not even in his prime yet. It's way too soon to start making judgements like this about his career.

I didn't

But you did. You've already concluded that Zubac is "at best a poor man's Valanciunas." You also tried to diminish Zubac's statistical accomplishments by claiming that rim protection isn't worth much in today's league, unless you have Rudy Gobert.

at the moment, that's exactly what Zubac is

if you think he's going to turn into a Marc Gasol or even a Rudy Gobert someday good luck with that


and yes, traditional "rim protection" comes at a cost
The Warriors didn't need it and the Raptors dumped Valanciunas, see above


you love Zubac, fine
I don't hate him
he's doing his job

as long as he's out there with Kawhi he's fine
but put him out there with the second unit and it would be disaster

[MartinToVaught]

if you think he's going to turn into a Marc Gasol or even a Rudy Gobert someday good luck with that

And you say this based on what, exactly? Again, he's only 22 and is improving by leaps and bounds. Our front office believed in him enough to pay him last offseason, so I'm going to trust in their evaluation of him.

and yes, traditional "rim protection" comes at a cost
The Warriors didn't need it and the Raptors dumped Valanciunas, see above

The Raptors had Ibaka and traded Val for another very good rim protector in Gasol. If you're trying to make the case that rim protection isn't useful, last year's Raptors are one of the last teams you'd want to point to. They literally disprove your argument.

[esqtvd]

if you think he's going to turn into a Marc Gasol or even a Rudy Gobert someday good luck with that

And you say this based on what, exactly? Again, he's only 22 and is improving by leaps and bounds. Our front office believed in him enough to pay him last offseason, so I'm going to trust in their evaluation of him.

and yes, traditional "rim protection" comes at a cost
The Warriors didn't need it and the Raptors dumped Valanciunas, see above

The Raptors had Ibaka and traded Val for another very good rim protector in Gasol. If you're trying to make the case that rim protection isn't useful, last year's Raptors are one of the last teams you'd want to point to. They literally disprove your argument.

I said traditional rim protection, IOW a lumbering 7-footer

Ibaka and Gasol are exactly what Zubac isn't
that's exactly my point



but believe whatever you want

[NippySudz]

Denver has the same issues as the clippers and Denver isn't load managing their best player. They're 22-8 against sub 500 teams..clippers are 22-7.

The rockets have gave up 150 points and a couple of 140 point games and got beat by the suns by 30

Thread winner. It happens to everybody. These guys are only human, and not only that, you're an idiot if you get yourself hurt in a meaningless game like this one.

As for "rim protection," as above, it's not really an operative term in today's NBA. Anything short of a Gobert isn't really worth the tradeoff. Zubac is at best a poor man's Valanciunas, whom the Raptors dumped for Gasol, a more modern center.

I disagree whole heartely with the zubac is a poor man's valancianus. If anything, Trez is more Vally than Zubac is. The reason he was traded to memphis because he couldn't defend and he wasn't a playoff performer.

Trezz can perform but he bleeds points.

Zubac is more of a Poor man's gasol. He can defend, but I'm not sure I trust that deep in later rounds. Teams are smarter each round you advance. He's only had one time playoff experience in which he didn't really play because of matchups. I can't expect a 22 year old who's starting to come into his own to be a championship center. It doens't make sense to me. He's a good defender. Hell, he might even be elite by regular season metrics, but po season is something totally different.

[NippySudz]

I see your viewpoint and respectfully disagree.

I think you're taking a cynical approach. Championships are hard to win in the first yr. Rarely happens where a newly assembled team wins the championship the first yr.

Very true, it's just tough because we don't have all the time in the world to figure things out with Kawhi and PG's short-term deals. The ups and downs of the first year would be easier to accept if they were both on longer-term deals.

I know bad habits are formed and that should be taken into consideration as well, those can come back to bite you so they need to cut it out but at the same time, I just saw a football team that couldn't guard the run. Defense wasn't good at guarding the run and saw them down in each round of the playoffs only to win the Superbowl.

To be fair, the Chiefs' defense did improve a lot throughout the season thanks to Spagnuolo. By the AFC title game, they had improved enough to limit Derrick Henry to only 69 rushing yards, which would have never happened with Sutton's defenses. And Shanahan went back to his own bad habit of going away from the run in the Super Bowl.

They were down in every playoff man. They gave up the run to the 49ers, they did a great job on the titans, but still, that was their achilles all year and it turned out to show up in the superbowl. almost cost them the game if it wasn't for Pat mahomes being Pat mahomes.

That's where I feel like Leonard will shine. Leonard shoudln't do everything, he's not going to do everything but when it comes time to make a winning play, he's going to make **** happen. I truly believe that. I believe that's what separates top 5 players from top 10. He shows up where no one shows up. As arrogant as it sounds, I believe he's the only winner in the NBA today, he does all the intangibles and preaches it. This is how he's able to be up 25 against the KD-led warriors or win as a solo-superstar against Dray-Klay-Steph. I know KD was injured, but that alone is still a challenge. They swept the blazers and beat houston. They were still a championship quality team. And Leonard beat them.

Raptors vs Sixers game 4, down 2-1
https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=401129102 look at that box score. No one else scored even 20 points. Leonard won them that game. Also, make note of minutes played. 43mins.

The fact that we're in the mix year one is a great sign and leonard even acknowledge its hard to win first yr and that the season might be up and down. I don't like to see people overreact. If leonard leaves, he leaves. I don't think hes' going to but accept that. He's not panicking. So why are you? How is your panicking going to change the situation? I really don't get it dude.

Leonard wanted doc, he got doc. Leonard load manged, he got that. Leonard got help at the trade deadline. We have the 4th best record in the league. We've shown we get beat good teams. We're a 3 seed in the west. Leonard is going to take that. Competing for a 2nd or third spot.

and if PG wants to leave, go ahead. I really don't care about PG. maybe someone else can replace him. I'm concerned about him in the playoffs even though he's been solid since arriving in okc, no choke jobs but Leonard should be the only concern. If the clippers got leonard a b-player allstar and not a superstar, I would still like my chances with this team. PG jsut makes it a better team, but leonard makes it a championship team.

[NippySudz]

I didn't

But you did. You've already concluded that Zubac is "at best a poor man's Valanciunas." You also tried to diminish Zubac's statistical accomplishments by claiming that rim protection isn't worth much in today's league, unless you have Rudy Gobert.

at the moment, that's exactly what Zubac is

if you think he's going to turn into a Marc Gasol or even a Rudy Gobert someday good luck with that


and yes, traditional "rim protection" comes at a cost
The Warriors didn't need it and the Raptors dumped Valanciunas, see above


you love Zubac, fine
I don't hate him
he's doing his job

as long as he's out there with Kawhi he's fine
but put him out there with the second unit and it would be disaster

to be fair, our second right now is disastrous in itself. Trez is the only consistent scorer in the second unit and even right now, he's bleeding points. Our second unit lacked defense, but now that lou is struggling, we can't offset that bad defense by elite scoring. It's also just a two man game when those guys come in. That's why shamet isn't seeing much shots with the second unit and why Doc is pissed about that.

Lou is a decent playmaker, but he's not a good or above avg one imo. I'm not against signing another point guard, even just to stash him behind lou and break glass in case of emergency.

[esqtvd]

Denver has the same issues as the clippers and Denver isn't load managing their best player. They're 22-8 against sub 500 teams..clippers are 22-7.

The rockets have gave up 150 points and a couple of 140 point games and got beat by the suns by 30

Thread winner. It happens to everybody. These guys are only human, and not only that, you're an idiot if you get yourself hurt in a meaningless game like this one.

As for "rim protection," as above, it's not really an operative term in today's NBA. Anything short of a Gobert isn't really worth the tradeoff. Zubac is at best a poor man's Valanciunas, whom the Raptors dumped for Gasol, a more modern center.

I disagree whole heartely with the zubac is a poor man's valancianus. If anything, Trez is more Vally than Zubac is. The reason he was traded to memphis because he couldn't defend and he wasn't a playoff performer.

Trezz can perform but he bleeds points.

Zubac is more of a Poor man's gasol. He can defend, but I'm not sure I trust that deep in later rounds. Teams are smarter each round you advance. He's only had one time playoff experience in which he didn't really play because of matchups. I can't expect a 22 year old who's starting to come into his own to be a championship center. It doens't make sense to me. He's a good defender. Hell, he might even be elite by regular season metrics, but po season is something totally different.

Zu can't defend the perimeter, anything more than 6-8 feet from the basket. He's a traditional "rim protector." As for "rim protection," Trezz averages 1.4 blocks per 36 minutes whereas Zubac averages...

1.4 blocks per 36 minutes.



As for Trezz bleeding points, he has lately, but I put that down [hopefully] to the crap he's had alongside him--Robinson, Mann, Walton, and of course all his minutes are alongside Lou, who's a sieve. I'm also not feeling J-Myke, who disappears for 2 games for every good game he has. And you guys are the ones savaging McGruder's defense every game.

A lot of this was caused by PG's lengthy absence, and now Pat Bev's, which has thrown the rotation off. I'm hoping things pull together.

Somebody also recently posted the stat that Trezz's defensive rating was actually 1 point better than Zubac's when on the floor along with Kawhi--which absolutely proves the point. I don't feel like digging it up but if you have a stat to the contrary I'd like to see it.

[NippySudz]

Thread winner. It happens to everybody. These guys are only human, and not only that, you're an idiot if you get yourself hurt in a meaningless game like this one.

As for "rim protection," as above, it's not really an operative term in today's NBA. Anything short of a Gobert isn't really worth the tradeoff. Zubac is at best a poor man's Valanciunas, whom the Raptors dumped for Gasol, a more modern center.

I disagree whole heartely with the zubac is a poor man's valancianus. If anything, Trez is more Vally than Zubac is. The reason he was traded to memphis because he couldn't defend and he wasn't a playoff performer.

Trezz can perform but he bleeds points.

Zubac is more of a Poor man's gasol. He can defend, but I'm not sure I trust that deep in later rounds. Teams are smarter each round you advance. He's only had one time playoff experience in which he didn't really play because of matchups. I can't expect a 22 year old who's starting to come into his own to be a championship center. It doens't make sense to me. He's a good defender. Hell, he might even be elite by regular season metrics, but po season is something totally different.

Zu can't defend the perimeter, anything more than 6-8 feet from the basket. He's a traditional "rim protector." As for "rim protection," Trezz averages 1.4 blocks per 36 minutes whereas Zubac averages...

1.4 blocks per 36 minutes.



As for Trezz bleeding points, he has lately, but I put that down [hopefully] to the crap he's had alongside him--Robinson, Mann, Walton, and of course all his minutes are alongside Lou, who's a sieve. I'm also not feeling J-Myke, who disappears for 2 games for every good game he has. And you guys are the ones savaging McGruder's defense every game.

A lot of this was caused by PG's lengthy absence, and now Pat Bev's, which has thrown the rotation off. I'm hoping things pull together.

Somebody also recently posted the stat that Trezz's defensive rating was actually 1 point better than Zubac's when on the floor along with Kawhi--which absolutely proves the point. I don't feel like digging it up but if you have a stat to the contrary I'd like to see it.

No one is asking zu to be a perimeter defender. They're asking him to be an interior defender and he does pretty good at that.

Blocks is not a good indicator that someone is a good defender. That's the 90s ways of looking at it. Look at the numbers when he's on the floor defensively vs off.

Where has trez will get a block, but like we saw aagainst the spurs, give up 8-10 straight points to aldrige because he's undersize and LMA is just simply stronger and turned over the shoulder he wanted to. He couldn't do that against Zu

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Here's the same move on trez. Trez is undersized and not as strong

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Kawhi gives leonard so much space.

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He should get the bulk of the mins if he has to play with kawhi, you sort of alluded to yourself, play zu with kawhi. IN the playoffs, kawhi is going to be playing 40mins, If you want kawhi to get easy open looks, he has to play with kawhi.

Trezz is more of a roller. He doesn't give leonard all that space.

I think trezz is more individually skilled. He's really good at scoring, but he's going to miss defensive rotations, he's going to be small.

You're underrating zubac man. I don't think he's gasol. I don't think he's a DPOY canidatte, but he's no valuncians. Vally can't get kawhi looks like that. Nor can he defend like that.

[NippySudz]

I believe I posted it. It wasn't zu,

the netrating with kawhi/trez on the floor was like 11.4

The net rating with him off the floor was like 11.5

The net rating without kawhi on the floor but trezz on the floor was negative rating(forgot what it was)

So he's neutral at best.

I have no idea what zu numbers are.

[NippySudz]

The most annoying thing I've noticed about Trez, he almost NEVER contests a shot. If a shot is up, he'll ballwatch and will not put a hand up to contest it. He doesn't box out well either. These are defensive plays, but the lack of contesting shots is annoying. Earlier in the season, doc said that kawhi does a lot of coach talk. Telling guys to make sure they always have their hands up and contest the shot. Trez doesn't do that. **** annoying. Even by him doing that alone, will improve the defensive. Do the little things.

[esqtvd]

I believe I posted it. It wasn't zu,

the netrating with kawhi/trez on the floor was like 11.4

The net rating with him off the floor was like 11.5

The net rating without kawhi on the floor but trezz on the floor was negative rating(forgot what it was)

So he's neutral at best.

I have no idea what zu numbers are.

As I said, I believe Trezz was 1 point better than Zu, which means there's no real reason to play Zu over Trezz alongside Kawhi since Zubac is a non-factor on offense and Trezz is a force. Trezz's apparent shortcomings on defense are not borne out by the numbers once all surrounding factors are equalized.

The rotation as is, is entirely logical. I don't underrate Zubac; it's his fans who grossly underrate Trezz, who's a legit 6MOY candidate.

[And if you look at the comments on Russo's videos, someone points out that such illustrations are anecdotal. You can dig up isolated plays to "prove" anything.]

[MartinToVaught]

The most annoying thing I've noticed about Trez, he almost NEVER contests a shot. If a shot is up, he'll ballwatch and will not put a hand up to contest it. He doesn't box out well either. These are defensive plays, but the lack of contesting shots is annoying. Earlier in the season, doc said that kawhi does a lot of coach talk. Telling guys to make sure they always have their hands up and contest the shot. Trez doesn't do that. **** annoying. Even by him doing that alone, will improve the defensive. Do the little things.

IMO, I think a big part of it (besides him just not being a very good defensive player in general) is that Trez is trying to conserve his energy for the ridiculous amount of minutes Doc gives him. And if that's the case, it's on Doc for not playing Zu and even Fi/Motley more.

I've said it before, but the current rotation isn't just unfair to Zu, it's also unfair to Trez because he's not being used as effectively as he should be.

[NippySudz]

I believe I posted it. It wasn't zu,

the netrating with kawhi/trez on the floor was like 11.4

The net rating with him off the floor was like 11.5

The net rating without kawhi on the floor but trezz on the floor was negative rating(forgot what it was)

So he's neutral at best.

I have no idea what zu numbers are.

As I said, I believe Trezz was 1 point better than Zu, which means there's no real reason to play Zu over Trezz alongside Kawhi since Zubac is a non-factor on offense and Trezz is a force. Trezz's apparent shortcomings on defense are not borne out by the numbers once all surrounding factors are equalized.

The rotation as is, is entirely logical. I don't underrate Zubac; it's his fans who grossly underrate Trezz, who's a legit 6MOY candidate.

[And if you look at the comments on Russo's videos, someone points out that such illustrations are anecdotal. You can dig up isolated plays to "prove" anything.]

Except when its not equalised. Some games are matchup dependent. It's going to show its head in the playoffs. In the playoffs, teams are not going to give you space. Leonard needs space. You want leonard to be shooting his career avg, 49%. Not a tick below that. Playing with zubac in the playoffs will help that. Unless we're playing small ball or something but outside going small, Zu helps.

The clippers need a true ccenter that will play in the later rounds. An experience center that's been through the wars. I don't have faith in zubac to play in the western conference championship or the finals should be make it there. I have faith for him to play well in the earlier rounds, but something just tells me he's going to commit dumb fouls and he's going to foul out and the playoff pressure will make him do dumb things. He's still a young player with relatively no playoff experience and now he's being asked to be a championship center. A lot to ask of him.

Trez,I believe he's skilled. I like him offensively, outside of that, I don't believe his offense will offset the defense. He can't space the floor. Bucks, lakers , raptors and sixers are lengthy as ****. Getting to the rim in the playoffs for him not be as easier in the later rounds

This is why I say I think we need a "true" center Noah I don't like because he can't space the floor cause he can't shoot, but I like him a lot better than I would like trez or Zu because he's battle tested and he's a smarter defender than those two. He may not be in his prime, but he's going to be a smart player. It's just a shame he's not healthy.

I seriously am perplexed why you don't buy anything zu. The tone of your messages when it comes to zubac are dismissive, despite evidence being thrown at you, you still don't really want to buy that he's a solid defender. I don't know where you got Jonas from. There's no way he's close to that.

[NippySudz]

The most annoying thing I've noticed about Trez, he almost NEVER contests a shot. If a shot is up, he'll ballwatch and will not put a hand up to contest it. He doesn't box out well either. These are defensive plays, but the lack of contesting shots is annoying. Earlier in the season, doc said that kawhi does a lot of coach talk. Telling guys to make sure they always have their hands up and contest the shot. Trez doesn't do that. **** annoying. Even by him doing that alone, will improve the defensive. Do the little things.

IMO, I think a big part of it (besides him just not being a very good defensive player in general) is that Trez is trying to conserve his energy for the ridiculous amount of minutes Doc gives him. And if that's the case, it's on Doc for not playing Zu and even Fi/Motley more.

I've said it before, but the current rotation isn't just unfair to Zu, it's also unfair to Trez because he's not being used as effectively as he should be.

dude, stop. That's a cop out. Look at the clips I posted. As soon as Alridge puts up the shot, Trez puts his hands down and ball watches the rebound. Doesn't even try to get in a position to box out. Boxing out, fine. But what's with the hands. You can't put a hand up? Takes no energy to contest a shot. Watch him tonight. See if he contests a shot. He rarely does it. He'll contest at the rim, but outside of that, he doesn't put a hand up. he literally just checked in and gives up 8-10 points to aldrige.

I get doc not playing project guys. You of all people should get that. You shouldn't b--ch at doc for playing the main rotation guys, then when we lose say, we have to win because kawhi is here on a short window. If you want to win, sometimes you have to think long term. You have to think in terms of continuity sometimes. But the other stuff I agree with. Sometiems though too, teams hide sets for the playoffs. they don't want to show their hand.

Lebron james and Ad don't run the pick and roll a lot during the regular season. Come playoff time, expect a lot of pick and roll.