Around the NBA II

Post #1321 » by **og15** » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:51 pm

The problem sometimes is who people are judging players against. If you're comparing Austin to starting level guards, he'll look bad. If you're comparing him to 6th man of the year candidates, he'll look bad. If you're comparing him to bench guards on teams that are thin at the guard spot, then Austin doesn't need to be great, he just needs to be better than the alternative options.

MartinToVaught · Post #1322 » by **MartinToVaught** » Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:26 am

esqtvd wrote:
Ranma wrote:For as much as I like Chris Paul, he's not the best judge of talent. Remember, he wanted Melo on the Clippers despite how inefficient he's been for the latter years. Melo wasn't even good enough for Morey's sabermetrically-inclined team. The Rockets are desperate enough for talent and handicapped by their salary cap that they'll settle for Junior Rivers.

However, to be fair to Rivers, there were reportedly multiple teams interested in his services at the minimum while Doc rewarded his son with a huge contract the the Suns were willing to pay not to have him play for them.

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Ah, TS% Eliot. Recognized basketball authority.

The stats speak for themselves, which is why you have no argument against them. Austin is a terrible NBA player, period.

esqtvd · Post #1323 » by **esqtvd** » Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:09 am

MartinToVaught wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
Ranma wrote:For as much as I like Chris Paul, he's not the best judge of talent. Remember, he wanted Melo on the Clippers despite how inefficient he's been for the latter years. Melo wasn't even good enough for Morey's sabermetrically-inclined team. The Rockets are desperate enough for talent and handicapped by their salary cap that they'll settle for Junior Rivers.

However, to be fair to Rivers, there were reportedly multiple teams interested in his services at the minimum while Doc rewarded his son with a huge contract the the Suns were willing to pay not to have him play for them.

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Ah, TS% Eliot. Recognized basketball authority.

The stats speak for themselves, which is why you have no argument against them. Austin is a terrible NBA player, period.

Austin's stats from last year were OK. That's what matters, not his early struggles. If CP says he's OK, that's good enough for me.

MartinToVaught · Post #1324 » by **MartinToVaught** » Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:30 pm

-2.7 career BPM.
-2.0 career VORP.

Austin has always been a net-negative player, worse than replacement level. And that's backed up by his stats and the eye test.

esqtvd · Post #1325 » by **esqtvd** » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:28 pm

MartinToVaught wrote:-2.7 career BPM.
-2.0 career VORP.

Austin has always been a net-negative player, worse than replacement level. And that's backed up by his stats and the eye test.

Yes, we know. His early career was disastrous, so insisting upon using his career averages is disingenuous.

:roll:

esqtvd · Post #1326 » by **esqtvd** » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:59 pm

esqtvd wrote:
MartinToVaught wrote:-2.7 career BPM.
-2.0 career VORP.

Austin has always been a net-negative player, worse than replacement level. And that's backed up by his stats and the eye test.

Yes, we know. His early career was disastrous, so insisting upon using his career averages is disingenuous.

___________________________

LATE ADD: I bet against the Rockets but forgot AR25 would be in uniform. Silly me. :oops:

Team-high plus+6, 7 pts in the 4th including two 3-balls, and a key stop on Westbrook. They don't win the game without the lift he provided.

Keep up your perfect record, bruh.

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Post #1327 » by **og15** » Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:48 am

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?s=19

Austin is mediocre, but I think some take the hate of him too far. He can help a team in a specific and limited role. First game and he's already getting 31 minutes.

esqtvd · Post #1328 » by **esqtvd** » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:44 am

og15 wrote:

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Austin is mediocre, but I think some take the hate of him too far. He can help a team in a specific and limited role. First game and he's already getting 31 minutes.

"Mediocre" is a fraught word. Austin seems to have found a home again, and looks to be a rotation player on a playoff team. Nice game again tonight--10-5-3 and 33 minutes @ +14. He earned those minutes, no nepotism.

"Middling" might be more fair. With his odd skill set, he's admittedly a square peg, but there have been plenty of square holes in the NBA over the years.

Ranma · Post #1329 » by **Ranma** » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:12 pm

It's interesting that Kobe says that he was headed towards Chicago before Shaq got traded from the Lakers, because I was under the impression that he threatened Buss that he was signing with the Clippers in order to force the Lakers' hand.

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Ranma · Post #1330 » by **Ranma** » Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:55 am

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esqtvd · Post #1331 » by **esqtvd** » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:02 pm

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Ranma · Post #1332 » by **Ranma** » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:00 am

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Quake Griffin · Post #1333 » by **Quake Griffin** » Fri Jan 4, 2019 7:04 pm

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Dynamix · Post #1334 » by **Dynamix** » Fri Jan 4, 2019 8:13 pm

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Post #1335 » by **og15** » Sat Jan 5, 2019 7:32 pm

Saw this on the general board: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1787072

Just made me laugh, there was also a thread earlier in the season talking about Pop not being that good of a coach.

Wammy Giveaway · Post #1336 » by **Wammy Giveaway** » Mon Jan 7, 2019 3:12 am

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Be prepared to hear rumors of Tom Thibodeau joining Clippers as an assistant coach to Doc Rivers. They already have Tyronne Lue back in an involuntary role; strange that Jerry West hasn't said or done anything about that - it might be because West knows Doc needs Thibs to be a competent coach.

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Post #1337 » by **og15** » Mon Jan 7, 2019 7:07 am

Since when did Doc need Thibs? Just because This was there the year he won? Thibs has also coached a terrible defense in Minnesota.

Wammy Giveaway · Post #1338 » by **Wammy Giveaway** » Mon Jan 7, 2019 8:02 pm

og15 wrote:Since when did Doc need Thibs? Just because This was there the year he won? Thibs has also coached a terrible defense in Minnesota.

The perception among fanbases is Doc Rivers is a horrible coach; he rode behind the coattails of the Ray Allen-Paul Pierce-Kevin Garnett Big 3 Celtics and the defensive styling of Tom Thibodeau. The only year Doc won the title was when Doc and Thibs were together; with just the Big 3 Celtics, an Eastern Conference Finals visit (helped out in part by the NBA Lockout). Danny Ainge was calling the shots in Boston, leaving Doc Rivers to just handle players egos and calling plays out of time outs. Without a deep coaching staff, a superstar starting lineup and a wise front office, Doc Rivers is a lame duck coach.

"Consider the following" - Bill Nye

Before 2008, Doc Rivers was defensively mediocre. Table below:

Code: Select all

1999-00   ORL   9th (101.7)
2000-01   ORL   10th (102.1)
2001-02   ORL   15th (105.3)
2002-03   ORL   20th (105.0)
2003-04   ORL   = Fired =
2004-05   BOS   14th (106.6)
2005-06   BOS   20th (106.9)
2006-07   BOS   16th (106.9)

Average: 14.85 - looks like 14th but is really 15th (approx. 104.9)
Playoffs: 1st round exit in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005; missed playoffs in others

Then Tom Thibodeau joined. And in the background, Danny Ainge was forming the Big 3 Celtics:

Code: Select all

2007-08   BOS   1st (98.9)  << Big 3 + Thibs
2008-09   BOS   2nd (102.3) << Big 3 + Thibs
2009-10   BOS   5th (103.8) << Big 3 + Thibs
2010-11   BOS   1st (100.3) <  Big 3
2011-12   BOS   1st (98.2)  <  Big 3

Average, with Big 3 + Thibodeau: 4.67 - two thirds 4th, one third 5th (approx. 101.6)
Average, just Big 3: True 1st (99.2)
Average, overall: True 2nd (100.7)
Playoffs, with Big 3 + Thibodeau: won championship in 2008, lost Finals in 2010
Playoffs, just Big 3: lost conference in 2012

Doc Rivers has never made the Finals without Thibs. A Big 3 of true superstars gives him a conference finals visit. After Thibs left, Doc had two seasons of being tops in defensive rating, 2010-11 having Lawrence Frank (now in front office), then a triumvirate of Kevin Eastman, Armond Hill and Mike Longabardi in 2012 lockout season (It also marked Tyronn Lue's debut with staff).

The Clippers only had two in Chris Paul and Blake Griffin. DeAndre Jordan was just a role star, but he was what Doc Rivers envisioned for Kendrick Perkins (who has never made an All-Star Game). The moment the Big 3 Celtics were split up, Doc took a dip in defensive rating:

Code: Select all

2012-13   BOS   7th (103.3)
2013-14   LAC   9th (104.8)
2014-15   LAC   16th (105.5)
2015-16   LAC   5th (103.8)
2016-17   LAC   12th (108.2)
2017-18   LAC   20th (110.2)
2018-19   LAC   22nd (113.5) ! As of 23-16

Average, excluding current: 11.5, split between 11th and 12th (105.9)
Playoffs, excluding current: 2nd round exit in 2014 and 2015, 1st round exit in 2016 and 2017 - both back-to-back, missed playoffs last year

So many things were going wrong for the Clippers franchise, that's just who they are. But their defense has hovered like a see-saw in the first three years. Post 3-1 collapse, the defense went downhill, starting with a recovering 5th ranking, then dropping to 20th. As of today, the Clippers are 22nd - if this holds, it will be the first time in Doc's tenure to have a rating lower than 20th.

So in response...

og15 wrote:Since when did Doc need Thibs? Just because This was there the year he won?

It's more than just lightning in a bottle. Jerry West was brought in to stabilize a historically dysfunctional front office with a few departments running under the old Donald Sterling cheapskate-consolidation scheme. West gives clearly defined roles, no person doing more than what he or she is supposed to do. The Clippers are a role player team, from the roster to the front office. With Thibs, Doc is relieved of defensive schemes. The real Doc was the one who helped the Clippers through the Sterling scandal, helping to keep the morale of employees at an all time high. Every coach is different - whereas we have strategists, planners and analyzers, Doc Rivers is, ironically, a soother.

Post #1339 » by **og15** » Mon Jan 7, 2019 9:42 pm

The perception among fanbases is Doc Rivers is a horrible coach;

Haven't really seen this. I've previously seen fans who thought he was overrated and yea, some even said bad, but that's never been the consensus, let alone terrible. I've seen people say he was a terrible GM, but more recently, there are more people saying that he had even been underrated as a coach due to his bad GM skills and that he's above average to good.

esqtvd · Post #1340 » by **esqtvd** » Mon Jan 7, 2019 11:19 pm

og15 wrote:
The perception among fanbases is Doc Rivers is a horrible coach;
Haven't really seen this. I've previously seen fans who thought he was overrated and yea, some even said bad, but that's never been the consensus, let alone terrible. I've seen people say he was a terrible GM, but more recently, there are more people saying that he had even been underrated as a coach due to his bad GM skills and that he's above average to good.

Looking at that main board thread, hating on coaches--aside from Pop and Kerr, I suppose--seems to be an NBA "fanbase" universal.

viewtopic.php?p=71576294#p71576294

Re: Rick Carlisle needs to go
Post#7 » by Kabookalu » Sat Jan 5, 2019 8:21 am

Things fans don't like about their coaches:

1) Rotations
2) Hockey substitutions
3) Favoritism
4) Timeout management
5) Stagnant offenses

What else am I missing?

and the topper, LOL