ImageImageImageImageImage

POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price?

Moderators: og15, TrueLAfan

How Much Should/Will Tobias Harris Get in Free Agency? (Vote Can Be Changed)

Poll ended at Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:58 am

Less Than $80 Million Over 4 Years Offered
11
23%
$80 Million Over 4 Years Offered
12
26%
$100 Million Over 4 Years
19
40%
$150 Million Over 5 Years
0
No votes
$145.5 Million Over 4 Years Non-Bird-Rights Maximum
1
2%
$188 Million Over 5 Years Bird-Rights Maximum
1
2%
Other (Note Below)
3
6%
 
Total votes: 47

TrueLAfan
Senior Mod - Clippers
Senior Mod - Clippers
Posts: 8,261
And1: 1,785
Joined: Apr 11, 2001

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#21 » by TrueLAfan » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:54 pm

Wammy Giveaway wrote:Here's my problem with money in general:

"The more money you make, the more problems you get" - Christopher Wallace, The Notorious B.I.G.

Give a player too much money, what are the odds the player underperforms? I've seen it a lot: the player gets a bloated contract just because the team missed out on a franchise star player; they need somebody to market. So they just promote one of their glue guys to a contract way beyond his value, anything to help give the team some relevancy, but they're clearly fooling themselves. The player will surely fail to meet the expectations of the contract, his stats will go under his career averages, and now they have an Andris Biedrins: forced to keep the player for the next few seasons until he becomes an expiring contract good enough to trade, or buyout the contract completely and take a cap hit. Giving a max contract to a lesser player just so the team doesn't feel left out: bad business practice. I wonder if the Sterling-era Clippers practiced the same thing too, even with their preference of letting the other 29 teams price their restricted free agents for him instead of offering a contract themselves (since they loved lowballing given Sterling's penny pinching habits).

In my view, Tobias is just a role starter. His career stats per season don't scream All-Star. He doesn't possess that NBA personality - somebody who can fill up the highlight reels with lob-jams, posters, crafty carnival-like basketball plays, or defends with a pesky reckless attitude as if his life depended on it like a Ron Artest. He's a glue guy who compliments the starting lineup's style of play, nothing more than a spot to fill. If he were in the Golden State Warriors, Harris would be the Zaza Pachulia to the Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green and Kevin Durant Fantastic 4: all superstars with All Star appearances, MVP and Finals MVP accolades, versus a hard-working player with a 6.9 PTS-5.9 REB-1.3 AST-0.7 STL-0.4 BLK career average that is close in line with bench players.


With respect, I disagree with huge chunks of this. First off—and most significantly—there’s pretty much nothing I care about less than “lob-jams, posters, crafty carnival-like basketball plays, or defends with a pesky reckless attitude as if his life depended on it like a Ron Artest.” Those aren’t high basketball IQ actions; those are plays done for the sake of appearance. I’m more invested in substance. Players that are focusing how something looks and the dramatics of what they do aren’t the type of players I—and I suspect the current Clippers—want.

Biedrins was a nice but immature player who got overpaid. He played over 2100 minutes once in the four seasons prior to signing his deal, struggled with conditioning and effort coming back from injury, and became a timid player. That’s very far from Tobias Harris, who has worked on facets of his game every offseason, played more every year, including 4 straight seasons of 2300+ minutes, and has shown toughness and leadership on and off the court.

I’m not sure what you mean by “role starter” either. If you’re implying that Tobias is a role player—he seems awfully multi-faceted (decent rebounder, above average scorer, outstanding three point shooter, smart passer)—to be a role player. I’d agree that he lacks something that he’s superlative in (other than maybe the three)—but he’s average to excellent in pretty much all areas, and that makes him a significantly above average NBA starter. He’s 28, and entering his prime. Zaza Pachulia with the Warriors is an old, breaking down player that gets 15 mpg (and really never was more than a 21-28 mpg player). His role on the Warriors is small--he was ninth on the team in minutes last year, and he had negligible impact on the team’s record . Tobias led the Clippers in court time after he joined the team. We were 17-15 in those games. I don’t see the comparison. At all.

I *do* see the point of not overpaying Tobias Harris. I don’t think he’s close to a max player. But, right now, he’s on Team USA (who I don’t think would ever have asked a player of Zaza Pachulia’s caliber to participate). The only players on that team not on rookie deals that are making less than Tobias are Boogie Cousins (who made the max earlier and is coming off a major injury, and took a low low deal to sign with the champs), Eric Gordon, Khris Middleton, and Isiah Thomas. I’d take Tobias over any of the last three, although I like Middleton a lot—and he’s likely to opt out next year and be a FA like Tobias. Neither of them are max players. Based on the last few seasons, both are players worth between $18 and $23 million a year to start with IMO. If either has a bigger year next season, that will go up. Poor or injury riddled seasons—value goes down (ask Avery Bradley). Our current management’s record with FAs is mixed—overpaid Gallo, Wesley, and Austin (although Austin was in that weird summer of $ where everyone got overpaid). “Worth it” deals for DJ and mixed for Jamal (first contract good, second contract bad). Good deals for Lou and JJ. Reasonable offseason pickups and payment. There’s nothing there that screams “Giving a max contract to a lesser player.” I’m cool with something reasonable; I suspect the Clippers (and Tobias) might be too.
Image
User avatar
esqtvd
RealGM
Posts: 12,149
And1: 4,855
Joined: Jun 24, 2017
Location: LA LA LA LAND
Contact:
     

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#22 » by esqtvd » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:43 pm

Agree with most of the above except

There’s nothing there that screams “Giving a max contract to a lesser player.”



Blake and JJ kinda pushed Doc and Ballmer into max/near-maxxing DJ to match the offer from the Dallas Cubans. I think they were happy to be letting him go, just as they were this summer. I don't think DJ was ever worth it.


I can definitely see some desperate team offering Tobias at least $25M per, even up to 30. The Pacers, Nets, Kings, Mavs and Hawks will have plenty of dough and as second- or third-tier destinations, are perfect candidates to overpay a bit to get Tobias. Only a hometown discount is gonna keep him, so Doc's #1 job this year is to keep him happy.
Image Are We Having Fun Yet?
TrueLAfan
Senior Mod - Clippers
Senior Mod - Clippers
Posts: 8,261
And1: 1,785
Joined: Apr 11, 2001

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#23 » by TrueLAfan » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:56 am

Yeah, I see your point. But DJ’s deal wasn’t max deal by any stretch—I actually put it in the group of “worth it” contracts. He signed for 4 years/$88 million and I’d say he was worth that. That’s what you pay the third piece of a big three—and I don’t think the problem with our Big 3 was DJ. A guy that makes three All-NBA teams and two All-D teams and misses less than a dozen games during the 4 years of his deal is giving you pretty good value.

The bigger bad contract we offered and I goofed on was Blake’s. He is absolutely the kind of guy you do NOT give a max deal to. That contract stings a lot less because of the great value we got for him in trade (Seriously—SGA, Tobias and Boban?) but still. I know some people are pissed because of the “Clipper for life” way we treated him at the time of the signing…but dude was injured (again) and simply was not improving as a player or leader. (Making more threes at the expense of interior scoring and rebounding is not necessarily my idea of improvement for a PF.) I hope management learned from that and won't blow it again.
Image
Wammy Giveaway
Veteran
Posts: 2,553
And1: 1,162
Joined: Jul 30, 2013

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#24 » by Wammy Giveaway » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:40 am

TrueLAfan wrote:I’m not sure what you mean by “role starter” either. If you’re implying that Tobias is a role player—he seems awfully multi-faceted (decent rebounder, above average scorer, outstanding three point shooter, smart passer)—to be a role player. I’d agree that he lacks something that he’s superlative in (other than maybe the three)—but he’s average to excellent in pretty much all areas, and that makes him a significantly above average NBA starter. He’s 28, and entering his prime. Zaza Pachulia with the Warriors is an old, breaking down player that gets 15 mpg (and really never was more than a 21-28 mpg player). His role on the Warriors is small--he was ninth on the team in minutes last year, and he had negligible impact on the team’s record . Tobias led the Clippers in court time after he joined the team. We were 17-15 in those games. I don’t see the comparison. At all.


A "role starter" is a player on the starting lineup who has role player stats, usually by minutes played, though they can be applied to box score numbers too. The purpose of the role starter is to simply serve as an exchangeable missing piece to an already assembled jigsaw puzzle. We already know what the picture looks like because the big pieces are already put together, we just need a piece that keeps the picture from falling apart. In most cases, the role starter is a placeholder for the team's sixth man, a decoy if you will. There have been cases where the sixth man has ended up playing starters minutes*. In the Paul-Griffin era, that was Jamal Crawford. The Jerry West rebuild, it's been Lou Williams. I came up with this word upon learning of Jared Dudley's career as a glue guy, somebody who can both start and come off the bench; same for the Spur's Manu Ginobili.

* From a Quora question: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-amount-of-minutes-the-average-NBA-player-plays-per-game

Franchise level: 32–38 mins
Core level: 30–35 mins
Rotation/bench: 15–25 mins
Bench warmers/human victory cigars: DNP

I would put Harris in between core and rotation minutes. Crawford was once getting core to franchise level minutes.
User avatar
esqtvd
RealGM
Posts: 12,149
And1: 4,855
Joined: Jun 24, 2017
Location: LA LA LA LAND
Contact:
     

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#25 » by esqtvd » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:37 pm

TrueLAfan wrote:Yeah, I see your point. But DJ’s deal wasn’t max deal by any stretch—I actually put it in the group of “worth it” contracts. He signed for 4 years/$88 million and I’d say he was worth that. That’s what you pay the third piece of a big three—and I don’t think the problem with our Big 3 was DJ. A guy that makes three All-NBA teams and two All-D teams and misses less than a dozen games during the 4 years of his deal is giving you pretty good value.

The bigger bad contract we offered and I goofed on was Blake’s. He is absolutely the kind of guy you do NOT give a max deal to. That contract stings a lot less because of the great value we got for him in trade (Seriously—SGA, Tobias and Boban?) but still. I know some people are pissed because of the “Clipper for life” way we treated him at the time of the signing…but dude was injured (again) and simply was not improving as a player or leader. (Making more threes at the expense of interior scoring and rebounding is not necessarily my idea of improvement for a PF.) I hope management learned from that and won't blow it again.



Hell yes, in SVG we certainly dodged a bullet in finding somebody as stupid and desperate as Billy King to not only take Blake's odious contract off our hands but give us value in Tobias and Shai [and maybe even Bobi]. Danny Ainge made his rep on Billy King's incompetence.

Fortunately, even if we overpay Tobias to keep him [4 years/$115M?], I don't think he'll be the albatross Blake is shaping up to be. And since Blake got his dough--he made more signing with the Clips than he would have got on the open market--I don't think there's a bad rap on the Clippers. For one thing, none of the NBA players particularly likes Blake, and second, anyone with half a brain knows the Clips made out like bandits. I wouldn't want to join an org that was stupid enough to pass on that deal!!
Image Are We Having Fun Yet?
User avatar
Quake Griffin
RealGM
Posts: 15,463
And1: 4,678
Joined: Jul 06, 2012
     

Re: Tobias Harris named to USAB National Team Pool 

Post#26 » by Quake Griffin » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:20 am

Making sure we have our [lottery] pick next year is what is most important.

Not making Tobias happy.
“I’ve always felt that drafting is the life blood of any organization.” - Jerome Alan West.
User avatar
esqtvd
RealGM
Posts: 12,149
And1: 4,855
Joined: Jun 24, 2017
Location: LA LA LA LAND
Contact:
     

Re: Tobias Harris named to USAB National Team Pool 

Post#27 » by esqtvd » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:19 am

Quake Griffin wrote:Making sure we have our [lottery] pick next year is what is most important.

Not making Tobias happy.



That's the tanker philosophy, yes. I'd rather build trust to re-sign Tobias and also be an attractive destination for UFAs [maybe even Kawhi or Durant] than have a pick in the teens. A pick in the teens is nice but not worth trashing an entire season for.

So far, at least, it looks like Ballmer and The Logo agree with me. You don't attract winners by losing.
Image Are We Having Fun Yet?
User avatar
Quake Griffin
RealGM
Posts: 15,463
And1: 4,678
Joined: Jul 06, 2012
     

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#28 » by Quake Griffin » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:11 am

"____________ is the lifeblood of an organization."
The blank is not filled with 'staying attractive for FAs'

Again....
It's about making sure we have multiple avenues to get better...and making sure Jerry gets every opportunity he has to build a juggernaut. Not a kind of good team we can smile about....a juggernaut.

Tobias and any other FA signing here is gonna have to sign here by overlooking a losing season more than likely....and over looking some youth actually. They're going to need foresight to do that. Foresight that says they like Shai, they like our front office. This foresight will be because he (they) is smart, he watches the league, and because he has an agent to coach him through this process. This WILL NOT happen because the 8th seed is the magical mystical gateway to Tobias and the rest of the FA class's hearts and the 9th seed is just a complete turn off.

Stop it.

There's literally no scenario next offseason that isn't made better by having even the 14th pick at our disposal.
Tobias.
Tobias + Kawhi/ Durant
Kawhi/Durant
Kawhi + Durant
None of the above.

^^^^
Each scenario enhanced by having a lottery pick....and it's very possible it could be the only way we have to get better.

There's literally no point in limiting this avenue that could potentially yield the best Clipper offseason ever just to scratch a stupid temporary itch.
“I’ve always felt that drafting is the life blood of any organization.” - Jerome Alan West.
User avatar
esqtvd
RealGM
Posts: 12,149
And1: 4,855
Joined: Jun 24, 2017
Location: LA LA LA LAND
Contact:
     

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#29 » by esqtvd » Wed Aug 1, 2018 12:23 am

Fortunately Ballmer and West seem to disagree with you. We are not tanking. We are going to play to win.

Yes, just missing the playoffs would be good. Having the 14th pick is better than not having it. That's a duh.

But the 14th pick is not going to attract a Kawhi. A functioning team will.
Image Are We Having Fun Yet?
TrueLAfan
Senior Mod - Clippers
Senior Mod - Clippers
Posts: 8,261
And1: 1,785
Joined: Apr 11, 2001

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#30 » by TrueLAfan » Wed Aug 1, 2018 12:56 am

Wammy Giveaway wrote: A "role starter" is a player on the starting lineup who has role player stats, usually by minutes played, though they can be applied to box score numbers too. The purpose of the role starter is to simply serve as an exchangeable missing piece to an already assembled jigsaw puzzle. We already know what the picture looks like because the big pieces are already put together, we just need a piece that keeps the picture from falling apart. In most cases, the role starter is a placeholder for the team's sixth man, a decoy if you will. There have been cases where the sixth man has ended up playing starters minutes*. In the Paul-Griffin era, that was Jamal Crawford. The Jerry West rebuild, it's been Lou Williams. I came up with this word upon learning of Jared Dudley's career as a glue guy, somebody who can both start and come off the bench; same for the Spur's Manu Ginobili.

* From a Quora question: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-amount-of-minutes-the-average-NBA-player-plays-per-game

Franchise level: 32–38 mins
Core level: 30–35 mins
Rotation/bench: 15–25 mins
Bench warmers/human victory cigars: DNP

I would put Harris in between core and rotation minutes. Crawford was once getting core to franchise level minutes.


Don’t really see this either. Tobias Harris averaged 34.5 minutes per game with the Clippers—only a little above his average for the last four seasons. That puts him in a group with players like James Harden (35.4 mpg), Klay Thompson (34.3), Kevin Durant (34.2), Kemba Walker (34.2), Blake Griffin (34.0), Victor Oladipo (34.0), DeMar DeRozan (33.9), Andre Drummond (33.7), Ben Simmons (33.7) and LaMarcus Aldridge (33.5). Everyone who played 33 mpg for 50 games last year started virtually all the time—no sixth men. Of the 52 players who played 32 minutes per game last year, 50 of them started over 95% of their games played. The only exception were Lou and Will Barton (and Jamal maxed at 30.3 mpg with the Clips). Since the source you note lists “franchise level” players at 32-38 mpg—and Tobias is in the middle of that—I’m not sure this is a workable or accurate way to describe their or his value.

In terms of stats per minutes played—among the 39 players that played 33 mpg last year for 50 or more games, Tobias ranked

21st in Points
14th in Rebounds
31st in Assists
4th in Turnovers (1st being lowest)
19th in Blocks
28th in Steals

4th in 3P%
19th TS% (Efficiency)

And, for advanced metrics with those 39 players, he’s

26th in VORP
19th in WS/48

Tobias seems to be pretty solidly in the middle of that group of 39—and considering it includes pretty much every top player in the league, that indicates something (much) more than an “exchangeable missing piece” or a “placeholder for the team’s sixth man.” Those numbers look like the breakdown of a valuable NBA player.


Quake Griffin wrote:Making sure we have our [lottery] pick next year is what is most important.


I can’t buy the tanking philosophy either. Sure the lottery pick has value. But we have (and should) to play to win this year for a few reasons:

1) Teams that tank look bad, bad, bad. No FA likes that. There’s a mercenary aspect to basketball free agency, and there’s a want-to-win aspect. Tank and we lose the impact of #2.
2) The 8 teams with the worst season records since 2012 are Charlotte, New Jersey, Minnesota, Phoenix, the Lakers, Sacramento, Philadelphia, and Orlando. The Lakers have a history. How have the other seven teams been doing in FA signings?
3) We're going to be developing rookies. What will it tell them about our culture if we plan and play a half-assed season of basketball? Sure, they might get more minutes on a bad team. I guarantee what the answer will be if you ask SGA or Jerome if they would rather play 15-20 mpg on a team fighting for a playoff berth, or 25 mpg on a 25-30 win team.
4) My guess is Clippers’ management wants to have their cake and eat it too—and that’s feasible. Let’s be real—we aren’t competing for a championship. We’ve got a team that, if all the pieces come together and nobody gets hurt, could get a #6 or #7 seed in the West. Maybe. But doubtful. Does anyone think it’s possible to take down the Warriors, Rockets, Celtics, Jazz, Raptors, Thunder or Sixers without a catastrophic accident? Me either. Now you’re at Portland, Minnesota, Indiana, Milwaukee, Miami, Washington, San Antonio, and Denver, all of whom did better than we did last year. This is leaving out the Lakers with LeBron, the Suns who added Ayton, Ariza, and Bridges, and some other bench pieces. If we finish in the middle of those teams…we miss a playoff spot.

In other words, we can play hard and win and look appealing while we compete for playoff spot we’re not particularly likely to get.
Image
Wammy Giveaway
Veteran
Posts: 2,553
And1: 1,162
Joined: Jul 30, 2013

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#31 » by Wammy Giveaway » Wed Aug 1, 2018 2:11 am

TrueLAfan wrote:My guess is Clippers’ management wants to have their cake and eat it too—and that’s feasible. Let’s be real—we aren’t competing for a championship. We’ve got a team that, if all the pieces come together and nobody gets hurt, could get a #6 or #7 seed in the West. Maybe. But doubtful. Does anyone think it’s possible to take down the Warriors, Rockets, Celtics, Jazz, Raptors, Thunder or Sixers without a catastrophic accident? Me either. Now you’re at Portland, Minnesota, Indiana, Milwaukee, Miami, Washington, San Antonio, and Denver, all of whom did better than we did last year. This is leaving out the Lakers with LeBron, the Suns who added Ayton, Ariza, and Bridges, and some other bench pieces. If we finish in the middle of those teams…we miss a playoff spot.

In other words, we can play hard and win and look appealing while we compete for playoff spot we’re not particularly likely to get.


I've been thinking a lot about the 6th to 8th seed thing, even though the Clips will end up out of the playoffs completely. They have this mindset of a hopeless gambler who always loses in a hand of Blackjack, but keeps playing the game because the losses he's had were so close to wins (Five Card Charlie or 21), so he pleads "one more game, just ONE more game" despite his historically bad luck, as if playing an extra game would ensure him he'd return to even.

There have been murmurs within the league office about reforming the playoffs by eliminating the conferences completely so that it's just the 16 best teams. The thinking here is that the Clips are better suited when the pool is open to a wider audience without preliminaries. Since the 2004-05 seasons when the NBA returned to 30 teams, the Clippers have been an average 7th seed in the western conference in 14 completed seasons. Go back to their first season in L.A. (1984-85), they are an average 9th seed in 34 years.

But that's not how power rankings work. When combining conferences, you have to go by all 30 teams, not half. The Clippers place in the league has been as follows, in order of ascending years from 2004-05 to now: 19, 9, 17, 26, 29, 23, 23, 8, 5, 3, 3, 6, 5, 18

Average in 14 seasons: 12th seed

The whole purpose of the so-called "mediocre strategy" is hope. Hoping that the NBA reforms the playoffs and makes it the 16 best teams in the league. If the Clip's seeding average is a "12th seed," maybe their luck will improve if the playoffs were more like the NCAA's March Madness. They care so much about making the playoffs just to prove they aren't the Sterling-era loser Clippers anymore. They'd be so glad just making the playoffs every year, when their old history has been mired in front office dysfunction, freak injuries, ownership corruption, and a 15-year playoff drought.
User avatar
Quake Griffin
RealGM
Posts: 15,463
And1: 4,678
Joined: Jul 06, 2012
     

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#32 » by Quake Griffin » Wed Aug 1, 2018 4:20 am

TrueLAfan wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:Making sure we have our [lottery] pick next year is what is most important.


I can’t buy the tanking philosophy either. Sure the lottery pick has value. But we have (and should) to play to win this year for a few reasons:

1) Teams that tank look bad, bad, bad. No FA likes that. There’s a mercenary aspect to basketball free agency, and there’s a want-to-win aspect. Tank and we lose the impact of #2.
2) The 8 teams with the worst season records since 2012 are Charlotte, New Jersey, Minnesota, Phoenix, the Lakers, Sacramento, Philadelphia, and Orlando. The Lakers have a history. How have the other seven teams been doing in FA signings?
3) We're going to be developing rookies. What will it tell them about our culture if we plan and play a half-assed season of basketball? Sure, they might get more minutes on a bad team. I guarantee what the answer will be if you ask SGA or Jerome if they would rather play 15-20 mpg on a team fighting for a playoff berth, or 25 mpg on a 25-30 win team.
4) My guess is Clippers’ management wants to have their cake and eat it too—and that’s feasible. Let’s be real—we aren’t competing for a championship. We’ve got a team that, if all the pieces come together and nobody gets hurt, could get a #6 or #7 seed in the West. Maybe. But doubtful. Does anyone think it’s possible to take down the Warriors, Rockets, Celtics, Jazz, Raptors, Thunder or Sixers without a catastrophic accident? Me either. Now you’re at Portland, Minnesota, Indiana, Milwaukee, Miami, Washington, San Antonio, and Denver, all of whom did better than we did last year. This is leaving out the Lakers with LeBron, the Suns who added Ayton, Ariza, and Bridges, and some other bench pieces. If we finish in the middle of those teams…we miss a playoff spot.

In other words, we can play hard and win and look appealing while we compete for playoff spot we’re not particularly likely to get.

You said it all in your last sentence. How could you read my last post where I said the difference between FAs signing here won't be the 8th (no pick) or 9th seed (keep our pick), then type this? Did you actually have a disagreement with that idea or were you just following the other guy???

This team should not be cutting off ways to get better. It should keep open every avenue and I want to make sure we do.

Best case scenario, we hit in FA and hit on a draft pick and we go on to create a juggernaut.
Worst case scenario, we make the playoffs, Tobias leaves, nobody signs here, and we have no way to get better next offseason.

You calculate the risk the way you see it but I don't see much use in putting ALL of our chips into FA. I don't see much use in hoping Kyrie comes here - we have a point guard. I don't see much use in hoping Klay leaves GSW - he already indicated he may take a discount and they are a juggernaut. Same with Durant. I don't see much use in pretending Kawhi is this sure thing when we have dealt with this type of injury with Griffin. I don't see much use in putting our hopes in MIddleton, he's a complimentary player.

^^^
None of these opportunities are worth cutting off an avenue to get better when you factor in the odds and likelihood that they come here.

Stay open. Stay malleable. Never sell out for one way of getting better.
User avatar
esqtvd
RealGM
Posts: 12,149
And1: 4,855
Joined: Jun 24, 2017
Location: LA LA LA LAND
Contact:
     

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#33 » by esqtvd » Wed Aug 1, 2018 8:29 am

TrueLAfan wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:Making sure we have our [lottery] pick next year is what is most important.


I can’t buy the tanking philosophy either. Sure the lottery pick has value. But we have (and should) to play to win this year for a few reasons:

1) Teams that tank look bad, bad, bad. No FA likes that. There’s a mercenary aspect to basketball free agency, and there’s a want-to-win aspect. Tank and we lose the impact of #2.
2) The 8 teams with the worst season records since 2012 are Charlotte, New Jersey, Minnesota, Phoenix, the Lakers, Sacramento, Philadelphia, and Orlando. The Lakers have a history. How have the other seven teams been doing in FA signings?
3) We're going to be developing rookies. What will it tell them about our culture if we plan and play a half-assed season of basketball? Sure, they might get more minutes on a bad team. I guarantee what the answer will be if you ask SGA or Jerome if they would rather play 15-20 mpg on a team fighting for a playoff berth, or 25 mpg on a 25-30 win team.
4) My guess is Clippers’ management wants to have their cake and eat it too—and that’s feasible. Let’s be real—we aren’t competing for a championship. We’ve got a team that, if all the pieces come together and nobody gets hurt, could get a #6 or #7 seed in the West. Maybe. But doubtful. Does anyone think it’s possible to take down the Warriors, Rockets, Celtics, Jazz, Raptors, Thunder or Sixers without a catastrophic accident? Me either. Now you’re at Portland, Minnesota, Indiana, Milwaukee, Miami, Washington, San Antonio, and Denver, all of whom did better than we did last year. This is leaving out the Lakers with LeBron, the Suns who added Ayton, Ariza, and Bridges, and some other bench pieces. If we finish in the middle of those teams…we miss a playoff spot.

In other words, we can play hard and win and look appealing while we compete for playoff spot we’re not particularly likely to get.


Well put. Losing is for losers. Nobody wants to join those trainwreck teams.


And throwing away an entire season just in hopes of getting what will probably be a pick in the teens is "putting all your eggs" in a VERY crap basket.
Image Are We Having Fun Yet?
User avatar
Quake Griffin
RealGM
Posts: 15,463
And1: 4,678
Joined: Jul 06, 2012
     

POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#34 » by Quake Griffin » Wed Aug 1, 2018 11:20 am

esqtvd wrote:
TrueLAfan wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:Making sure we have our [lottery] pick next year is what is most important.


I can’t buy the tanking philosophy either. Sure the lottery pick has value. But we have (and should) to play to win this year for a few reasons:

1) Teams that tank look bad, bad, bad. No FA likes that. There’s a mercenary aspect to basketball free agency, and there’s a want-to-win aspect. Tank and we lose the impact of #2.
2) The 8 teams with the worst season records since 2012 are Charlotte, New Jersey, Minnesota, Phoenix, the Lakers, Sacramento, Philadelphia, and Orlando. The Lakers have a history. How have the other seven teams been doing in FA signings?
3) We're going to be developing rookies. What will it tell them about our culture if we plan and play a half-assed season of basketball? Sure, they might get more minutes on a bad team. I guarantee what the answer will be if you ask SGA or Jerome if they would rather play 15-20 mpg on a team fighting for a playoff berth, or 25 mpg on a 25-30 win team.
4) My guess is Clippers’ management wants to have their cake and eat it too—and that’s feasible. Let’s be real—we aren’t competing for a championship. We’ve got a team that, if all the pieces come together and nobody gets hurt, could get a #6 or #7 seed in the West. Maybe. But doubtful. Does anyone think it’s possible to take down the Warriors, Rockets, Celtics, Jazz, Raptors, Thunder or Sixers without a catastrophic accident? Me either. Now you’re at Portland, Minnesota, Indiana, Milwaukee, Miami, Washington, San Antonio, and Denver, all of whom did better than we did last year. This is leaving out the Lakers with LeBron, the Suns who added Ayton, Ariza, and Bridges, and some other bench pieces. If we finish in the middle of those teams…we miss a playoff spot.

In other words, we can play hard and win and look appealing while we compete for playoff spot we’re not particularly likely to get.


Well put. Losing is for losers. Nobody wants to join those trainwreck teams.


And throwing away an entire season just in hopes of getting what will probably be a pick in the teens is "putting all your eggs" in a VERY crap basket.

Is the difference between an FA coming here the 8th or 9th seed?

Yes or no.

Edit: and given you can trade a pick (we would have traded 13 for Demar if you had your way remember?) but cannot trade “attractiveness to FAs,” that attempt at a pithy comment at the end wasn’t your brightest moment on here....not that I think a bunch of people will be here to back that idea up. Just know it’s true.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app
“I’ve always felt that drafting is the life blood of any organization.” - Jerome Alan West.
og15
Forum Mod - Clippers
Forum Mod - Clippers
Posts: 50,980
And1: 33,795
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
Location: NBA Fan
 

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#35 » by og15 » Wed Aug 1, 2018 4:52 pm

I don't think I ever answered the question, but the right price is between $80 and $100 million somewhere. Tobias will try to use this season to prove where he lands in there.

I don't think 8th vs 9th seed matters, but I think the FO is looking at it and saying that 27-29 wins vs 40-42 wins matters for free agent who is looking to win and assessing the roster he will be joining and how good adding him plus another possible guy makes them.
User avatar
esqtvd
RealGM
Posts: 12,149
And1: 4,855
Joined: Jun 24, 2017
Location: LA LA LA LAND
Contact:
     

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#36 » by esqtvd » Wed Aug 1, 2018 7:47 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
TrueLAfan wrote:


I can’t buy the tanking philosophy either. Sure the lottery pick has value. But we have (and should) to play to win this year for a few reasons:

1) Teams that tank look bad, bad, bad. No FA likes that. There’s a mercenary aspect to basketball free agency, and there’s a want-to-win aspect. Tank and we lose the impact of #2.
2) The 8 teams with the worst season records since 2012 are Charlotte, New Jersey, Minnesota, Phoenix, the Lakers, Sacramento, Philadelphia, and Orlando. The Lakers have a history. How have the other seven teams been doing in FA signings?
3) We're going to be developing rookies. What will it tell them about our culture if we plan and play a half-assed season of basketball? Sure, they might get more minutes on a bad team. I guarantee what the answer will be if you ask SGA or Jerome if they would rather play 15-20 mpg on a team fighting for a playoff berth, or 25 mpg on a 25-30 win team.
4) My guess is Clippers’ management wants to have their cake and eat it too—and that’s feasible. Let’s be real—we aren’t competing for a championship. We’ve got a team that, if all the pieces come together and nobody gets hurt, could get a #6 or #7 seed in the West. Maybe. But doubtful. Does anyone think it’s possible to take down the Warriors, Rockets, Celtics, Jazz, Raptors, Thunder or Sixers without a catastrophic accident? Me either. Now you’re at Portland, Minnesota, Indiana, Milwaukee, Miami, Washington, San Antonio, and Denver, all of whom did better than we did last year. This is leaving out the Lakers with LeBron, the Suns who added Ayton, Ariza, and Bridges, and some other bench pieces. If we finish in the middle of those teams…we miss a playoff spot.

In other words, we can play hard and win and look appealing while we compete for playoff spot we’re not particularly likely to get.


Well put. Losing is for losers. Nobody wants to join those trainwreck teams.


And throwing away an entire season just in hopes of getting what will probably be a pick in the teens is "putting all your eggs" in a VERY crap basket.

Is the difference between an FA coming here the 8th or 9th seed?

Yes or no.

Edit: and given you can trade a pick (we would have traded 13 for Demar if you had your way remember?) but cannot trade “attractiveness to FAs,” that attempt at a pithy comment at the end wasn’t your brightest moment on here....not that I think a bunch of people will be here to back that idea up. Just know it’s true.




It WAS a pithy comment. :lol:

For which you have no answer. And hell yes, I'd have traded the Jerome Robinson pick for 29-year old, 4-time all-star Demar DeRozan. He fetched Kawhi. A lousy 13th pick certainly wouldn't. Puts the value in perspective.

And since you seem to remember everything I wrote [thank you very much], you'll remember my pet theory that the FO didn't convert Ty and CJ's two-way contracts for the express purpose of missing the 8th seed and the playoffs, getting the 9th seed [actually 10th] and thus keeping the 13th pick.

I thought that was pretty cool. :wink:

esqtvd wrote:
Yes, just missing the playoffs would be good. Having the 14th pick is better than not having it. That's a duh.

Image Are We Having Fun Yet?
TrueLAfan
Senior Mod - Clippers
Senior Mod - Clippers
Posts: 8,261
And1: 1,785
Joined: Apr 11, 2001

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#37 » by TrueLAfan » Wed Aug 1, 2018 9:14 pm

Sorry if I’m misconstruing you—but (to me) the idea that what’s important is a lottery pick and that it’s more important than how Tobias Harris feels about the team implies that although we have the upper hand in resigning him (like all home teams), it’s okay/better if we aren’t doing everything we can to make the playoffs. That’s the way that sounds. Maybe it’s just me.

In terms of tradeable assets, I think it’s a (much) bigger deal that we have a large number of quality players in the final year of their contracts. I’ll bet money that we’re actively shopping everyone from Avery Bradley to Milos to Mike Scott to Boban by January. Some team that has picks—present or future--will want to pick up a piece. Some team will have assets we want. Some team—again, I’m crossing my fingers that Gallo plays 40 good games by the all-star break—may want to trade an expiring big contract for Gallo and Lou or other players. One of the reasons, IMO, we’ve got so many players on the roster is because not all of them will be here in March. Maybe it’s heresy around here, but if someone were to ask me, would you rather have a lottery pick or the players we have that can be traded for assets (like … future picks), I’ll take the tradeable players who will be, at worst, cap space in 2019.
Image
User avatar
Quake Griffin
RealGM
Posts: 15,463
And1: 4,678
Joined: Jul 06, 2012
     

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#38 » by Quake Griffin » Wed Aug 1, 2018 11:17 pm

esqtvd wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
Well put. Losing is for losers. Nobody wants to join those trainwreck teams.


And throwing away an entire season just in hopes of getting what will probably be a pick in the teens is "putting all your eggs" in a VERY crap basket.

Is the difference between an FA coming here the 8th or 9th seed?

Yes or no.

Edit: and given you can trade a pick (we would have traded 13 for Demar if you had your way remember?) but cannot trade “attractiveness to FAs,” that attempt at a pithy comment at the end wasn’t your brightest moment on here....not that I think a bunch of people will be here to back that idea up. Just know it’s true.




It WAS a pithy comment. :lol:

For which you have no answer. And hell yes, I'd have traded the Jerome Robinson pick for 29-year old, 4-time all-star Demar DeRozan. He fetched Kawhi. A lousy 13th pick certainly wouldn't. Puts the value in perspective.

And since you seem to remember everything I wrote [thank you very much], you'll remember my pet theory that the FO didn't convert Ty and CJ's two-way contracts for the express purpose of missing the 8th seed and the playoffs, getting the 9th seed [actually 10th] and thus keeping the 13th pick.

I thought that was pretty cool. :wink:

esqtvd wrote:
Yes, just missing the playoffs would be good. Having the 14th pick is better than not having it. That's a duh.


pithy
[pith-ee]
SynonymsExamplesWord Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
adjective, pith·i·er, pith·i·est.
brief, forceful, and meaningful in expression; full of vigor, substance, or meaning; terse; forcible:
a pithy observation.


It was only brief. Not forceful. Not meaningful. No substance really.

You can trade a pick. Literally possessing it means your eggs are not in ONE basket or don't have to be...let alone a "VERY" (lol) "crap basket". That was answered before you responded.

Try another angle.
“I’ve always felt that drafting is the life blood of any organization.” - Jerome Alan West.
User avatar
esqtvd
RealGM
Posts: 12,149
And1: 4,855
Joined: Jun 24, 2017
Location: LA LA LA LAND
Contact:
     

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#39 » by esqtvd » Wed Aug 1, 2018 11:30 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:
esqtvd wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:Is the difference between an FA coming here the 8th or 9th seed?

Yes or no.

Edit: and given you can trade a pick (we would have traded 13 for Demar if you had your way remember?) but cannot trade “attractiveness to FAs,” that attempt at a pithy comment at the end wasn’t your brightest moment on here....not that I think a bunch of people will be here to back that idea up. Just know it’s true.




It WAS a pithy comment. :lol:

For which you have no answer. And hell yes, I'd have traded the Jerome Robinson pick for 29-year old, 4-time all-star Demar DeRozan. He fetched Kawhi. A lousy 13th pick certainly wouldn't. Puts the value in perspective.

And since you seem to remember everything I wrote [thank you very much], you'll remember my pet theory that the FO didn't convert Ty and CJ's two-way contracts for the express purpose of missing the 8th seed and the playoffs, getting the 9th seed [actually 10th] and thus keeping the 13th pick.

I thought that was pretty cool. :wink:

esqtvd wrote:
Yes, just missing the playoffs would be good. Having the 14th pick is better than not having it. That's a duh.


pithy
[pith-ee]
SynonymsExamplesWord Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
adjective, pith·i·er, pith·i·est.
brief, forceful, and meaningful in expression; full of vigor, substance, or meaning; terse; forcible:
a pithy observation.


It was only brief. Not forceful. Not meaningful. No substance really.

You can trade a pick. Literally possessing it means your eggs are not in ONE basket or don't have to be...let alone a "VERY" (lol) "crap basket". That was answered before you responded.

Try another angle.



you don't seem to understand the argument
throwing away an entire season just for a marginal lottery pick is a very crap basket to put your eggs in
Image Are We Having Fun Yet?
User avatar
Quake Griffin
RealGM
Posts: 15,463
And1: 4,678
Joined: Jul 06, 2012
     

Re: POLL: Tobias Harris Turns Down $80 Million | What's the Right Price? 

Post#40 » by Quake Griffin » Wed Aug 1, 2018 11:54 pm

TrueLAfan wrote:Sorry if I’m misconstruing you—but (to me) the idea that what’s important is a lottery pick and that it’s more important than how Tobias Harris feels about the team implies that although we have the upper hand in resigning him (like all home teams), it’s okay/better if we aren’t doing everything we can to make the playoffs. That’s the way that sounds. Maybe it’s just me.

In terms of tradeable assets, I think it’s a (much) bigger deal that we have a large number of quality players in the final year of their contracts. I’ll bet money that we’re actively shopping everyone from Avery Bradley to Milos to Mike Scott to Boban by January. Some team that has picks—present or future--will want to pick up a piece. Some team will have assets we want. Some team—again, I’m crossing my fingers that Gallo plays 40 good games by the all-star break—may want to trade an expiring big contract for Gallo and Lou or other players. One of the reasons, IMO, we’ve got so many players on the roster is because not all of them will be here in March. Maybe it’s heresy around here, but if someone were to ask me, would you rather have a lottery pick or the players we have that can be traded for assets (like … future picks), I’ll take the tradeable players who will be, at worst, cap space in 2019.

If Tobias's name was LeBron, Steph, Durant, Harden etc. etc., we would offer him the max AND he would be our most important priority this season.

The reality of the matter is that everybody in this group has admitted that he isn't worth the max. In fact, the guy who said he is most important said keeping him happy is most important because we need to get him to take a hometown discount. How can you dedicate a season to the happiness of a player you aren't willing to bring back at ALL costs no matter what?

Further, Tobias is a solid cog in a championship machine but he isn't a superstar. Having him here, while awesome, would mean we are still in search of that elusive superstar...the superstar that will put us over the top...the one that can lead a team to a ring. As long as we are looking for that superstar, we are in no position to limit the ways in which we find that star.

The idea that NBA Superstars look for 40-45 win teams to sign with (as an addition to their core) is preposterous. It's unfounded. It's literally based on nothing. Not based on any signing. Not based on any big superstar FA signing in NBA history. We've literally seen more superstars sign with **** teams (Nash -Suns...Bron - Cavs, Lakers) and bet on themselves than we have seen NBA players value the team that stayed competitive to stay attractive.
“I’ve always felt that drafting is the life blood of any organization.” - Jerome Alan West.

Return to Los Angeles Clippers