Official Fire Doc Rivers thread

[esqtvd]

Jerome Robinson shouldn't be getting quality mins. He hasn't earned it.

I've been saying he's being showcased. Harkless is the only one with a big enough salary to match any decent player we might trade for, but remember that Miami gave us a first-round pick to take him off their hands!

Since we have no draft picks to trade until like the 22nd century, something like Jerome [or T-Mann???] is the only sweetener we can offer on top of Harkless. But Jerome's gotta do his part. He hasn't been terrible, just not what you'd call...good.

[esqtvd]

The biggest issue I have with Doc this season is that he has taken a step back; way back. I don't know what happened to our pistol offense of last season, but this season we appear to be implementing an antiquated offense of the 90's and early 00's. The sole effort seems to be to pound the ball into the hands of our stars and hope that they can make something out of nothing. And, if they can, then, great! That is solid and replicable offense.

We cannot win anything with such a system, and I think this is self evident. What I will not do, however, is shovel dirt on Doc myself. I have seen what he can do when his back is to the wall (as evidenced last year), and hopefully his plans are to reinstate such (any) system.

The players are not executing whatever system Doc has been able to put in so far, with only one practice in a month. We have not been running anything resembling what Doc wants.

All this Doc-bashing is built on a false premise, that he has no plan or plays.

Frankly, the players think they can just BS their way through--and mostly they've gotten away with it. Doc knows better, but all he can do at this point is let them fail before they come around and get serious.


https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/256383/Doc-Rivers-On-Clippers-Offense-Its-Fools-Gold

"We keep looking at our offensive numbers, and I've been saying it: It's fool's gold. We're not ready offensively yet. And our numbers say different. But this is where analytically, I'm right. I can see it," said Rivers of Kawhi Leonard and Paul George.

This team hasn't even been together for one whole month yet. Only Lou, Trezz, and Beverley were here at this time last year. [And Jerome, but who cares.] It's a brand-new team.


It's ridiculous to expect us to be up to speed with the Bucks, who went to the conference finals last year. But this was also a wakeup call to the players, that this scatterass play has got to stop if they want the Larry. That was the river; this is the sea.

______________________

ADD: Fuller Doc quote, via Jovan Buha at The Athletic, which I just subscribed to. Kawhi's been What Me Worry. Doc's been trying to wake them up. This blowout should help.

https://theathletic.com/1436823/2019/12/07/its-fools-gold-clippers-humbled-by-bucks-in-embarrassing-blowout-loss/?source=shared-article

“I’ve been saying it every game, and nobody wants to hear it,” Rivers said. “We keep looking at our offensive numbers, and I’ve been saying it: It’s fool’s gold. We’re not ready offensively yet. And our numbers say different. But this is where, analytically, I’m right. I can see it. I said it. What did we have, 140 the other night? I said, ‘Guys, we’re not a good offensive team yet.’

“People look at me like I’m nuts. I think tonight is a great example of that.”

Multiple Clippers players agreed with Rivers’ assessment that the team is still far from its potential offensively. Williams believes the Clippers have gotten by with their individual offensive firepower over legitimate chemistry.

“That’s just talent getting us over,” Williams said. “Talent is getting us through a lot of these games. And what we are going to need to be successful at a high level is going to have to be chemistry; it is going to have to be everybody is going to know where everybody is on the floor and know all the positions. And that stuff comes over time."

Well, the alarm just went off. Let's see if they hit the snooze button--although frankly I see no reason Kawhi and PG should hit the warp drive on their bodies just yet. It's a long way to April.

[Dynamix]

What would you call "back against the wall"? One of these three things would have to happen:

1. Being one game away from a 10-game losing streak. The last time Doc lost 10 in a row, he was fired immediately in Orlando. With the Clippers, he had a 9-game losing streak, and was one away from begin canned. What saved his job: beating the lottery team Hawks in 2017-18 season, Chris Paul's first year with Rockets after wanting out.

2. Getting swept: Throughout his entire career, teams coached by Doc Rivers have never been swept in the playoffs. In fact, in the 2012-13 season, his Celtics lost 3 in a row to the Knicks, constituting an automatic series victory. No team in NBA history has ever recovered from a 3-0 playoff series deficit, yet Doc was determined to have his storybook ending by being first coach to pull off the miracle feat. Given the Knicks history of incompetence under James Dolan, it's only fitting that Boston would upset New York, especially since Knicks were 2nd and Celtics 7th, but all that got thrown out of the window because of Celtics having Doc Rivers.

3. Malice At The Palace 2.0: Picture this: the Clippers have a horrid game, technical fouls pile up, they start drawing flagrant fouls. Pretty soon, some players are ejected. Then, one of the Clippers gets into a nasty brawl that brings back memories of the Knicks-Suns brawl of 1993. Game is called, Steve Ballmer is ashamed, admits to their past, and apologies for all the bad things they've done and concede to possibly forfeiting a whole season. They could have a case in saying Doc Rivers really didn't take his coaching job seriously, and decide to either can him now, or give him a "prove-it" moment, which circles back to the desire for a fairy tale ending. They might even deem that beating the Lakers in a playoff series will be a requirement to keeping his job.

Now imagine this: we lose the last 6 games of the regular season, head into the playoffs with very low morale, get swept, and our players lose their cool in the last game and start an all-out brawl right there at Staples. That's pretty much what would have to happen for Doc to get canned over the summer.

[QRich3]

I know some people just tend to throw a tantrum at the coach when they’re upset after a loss, but we’re on pace for 57 wins even though Kawhi and George have played 8 games together (that’s barely a third of the games played so far). We’re running very simple stuff on both ends and guys are still having trouble to run it properly because of the lack of familiarity. We’ll run better sets later on and they will work better, but so far I don’t think the coaching staff is doing anything outrageously bad.

My thing with whining about the coach is, if you’re gonna complain about a lack of adjustments, the onus is on you to detail which plays should be adjusted. Cause I saw them correcting stuff like the Brook Lopez pick’n’pop when Middleton was killing us from the weakside, but then with a talented team they hurt you in other places. You can adjust plays, but you can’t expect “adjustments” to magically nullify the best team in the league.

I’m ok with people showing their disappointment after a big loss, it’s just normal, but throwing all the blame at the coach expecting him to perform a miracle and solve every problem in one genius stroke is not a valid criticism for me. I’m sure there’ll be stuff to criticise the coach for as the season develops, but right now there hasn’t even been enough time to get a grasp about how good a job they’re gonna do. So I can’t take this criticism seriously.

[esqtvd]

So I can’t take this criticism seriously

Nor should you. Anybody dogging on Doc now has been dogging on him for years and is just using this as an excuse to start dogging again.

It's their brand. It's what they do. It's what they've always done. Otherwise they'd actually have to know something about basketball to get attention. Nobody who didn't hate on Doc before this season is hating on him now, after only a few weeks. Nobody.

The Clippers did not get skunked by the Bucks because of the coach. That's absurd.

[NippySudz]

They don't have the personnel.

I'm not denying the roster is flawed, we could really use a point guard, but come on. Doc has been here for three eras of the team and tons of roster turnover and the results have never changed. Still zero Western Conference Finals appearances, let alone rings.

Even with this roster's flaws, this team should look so much better than they do right now with two elite superstars like Kawhi and PG. The personnel is not a valid excuse for Doc's coaching.

Can we at least give doc 20-30 games with a full roster? PG missed 11 games, Kawhi load manages and has had a bad month, shamets injured and despite all that, this team is currently sitting second in the west in a TIGHT western race. The team hasn't even had a training camp and has 1 practice and they're still clapping teams.

And the other question posed..Who do you hire? whos' going to be the guy to replace doc rivers? The locker room LOVES doc. Kawhi even said Doc being a championship head coach was part of a reason he came here. That's something he was looking for in an organization. The whole team loves the guy. You fire him you might lose half the locker room if you don't bring in the right coach who will earn the respect of the players? Who's out there/ All these people saying fire doc WHO IS THE REPLACEMENT?

[NippySudz]

I know some people just tend to throw a tantrum at the coach when they’re upset after a loss, but we’re on pace for 57 wins even though Kawhi and George have played 8 games together (that’s barely a third of the games played so far). We’re running very simple stuff on both ends and guys are still having trouble to run it properly because of the lack of familiarity. We’ll run better sets later on and they will work better, but so far I don’t think the coaching staff is doing anything outrageously bad.

My thing with whining about the coach is, if you’re gonna complain about a lack of adjustments, the onus is on you to detail which plays should be adjusted. Cause I saw them correcting stuff like the Brook Lopez pick’n’pop when Middleton was killing us from the weakside, but then with a talented team they hurt you in other places. You can adjust plays, but you can’t expect “adjustments” to magically nullify the best team in the league.

I’m ok with people showing their disappointment after a big loss, it’s just normal, but throwing all the blame at the coach expecting him to perform a miracle and solve every problem in one genius stroke is not a valid criticism for me. I’m sure there’ll be stuff to criticise the coach for as the season develops, but right now there hasn’t even been enough time to get a grasp about how good a job they’re gonna do. So I can’t take this criticism seriously.

It's not fair to assess this team until January /feb and even imo. People are expecting instant chemistry. or they're expecting a greg popovich type of coach out there waiting to be hired. Whomever replaces Doc would need to command the respect of the players. He's a player's coach. Not a lot of coaches out there that can do can command that respect + not a lot of coach can take over mid season and still maintain championship aspirations.

People need to relax.

[Wammy Giveaway]

People are expecting instant chemistry, or a Gregg Popovich-type of coach out there waiting to be hired. Whomever replaces Doc would need to command the respect of the players. He's a player's coach. Not a lot of coaches out there that can do can command that respect + not a lot of coaches can take over mid season and still maintain championship aspirations.

People need to relax.

"Relax!? I can't relax, nor can I yield, relent or... (gasp)" - Yeardley Smith, voice of Lisa Simpson, The Simpsons

The minimum expectation I have with Clippers is taking lottery teams seriously. Too many times have I seen them shoot cold or have defensive lapses whenever they face an under .500 team. Against the lesser teams, either they 1) treat the second half like practice or extended garbage time after having a superb 1st half or quarter or 2) overlook the school of fish that's in front of them just to go after the lunker, only for the Clippers to catch a side smack to the head, never knowing what hit 'em. To be clear on the term "lunker," this does not necessarily mean the Lakers, the Clipper's eternal nemesis, but basically any team that houses the face of the league like LeBron James and Michael Jordan, or any of the playoff representatives.

Just to prove my point, have a look at these Clipper records below.

Vs. Elite (the top 3 seeds in each conference, ordered as East, West)
- 2012-13: 4-2, 3-7
- 2013-14: 2-4, 3-4
- 2014-15: 1-5, 3-5
- 2015-16: 2-4, 2-9
- 2016-17: 4-2, 4-7
- 2017-18: 4-2, 4-8 (lottery)
- 2018-19: 1-5, 3-9

Vs. Lottery Teams (seeded 9th through 15th)
- 2012-13: 10-4, 22-5
- 2013-14: 12-2, 22-5
- 2014-15: 13-1, 23-3
- 2015-16: 13-1, 19-7
- 2016-17: 11-3, 16-10
- 2017-18: 11-3, 17-5 (lottery)
- 2018-19: 11-3, 18-8

A normal playoff team is supposed to be near .500 but not winless against the elite teams, and have winning records vs. lottery teams. If you're an elite team, your losses against lottery teams have to be close to, but not absolutely zero. Clippers losses vs. lottery teams over the years is an ongoing favorite concern of mine. As a guideline, the Lakers this season (of all teams) are perfect against opponents under .500. While the Lakers are often imitated but never duplicated, the Clippers have to show they aren't leaking losses. The 2016-17 and 2018-19 seasons each have them at double digit losses vs. lesser competition.

[NippySudz]

People are expecting instant chemistry, or a Gregg Popovich-type of coach out there waiting to be hired. Whomever replaces Doc would need to command the respect of the players. He's a player's coach. Not a lot of coaches out there that can do can command that respect + not a lot of coaches can take over mid season and still maintain championship aspirations.

People need to relax.

"Relax!? I can't relax, nor can I yield, relent or... (gasp)" - Yeardley Smith, voice of Lisa Simpson, The Simpsons

The minimum expectation I have with Clippers is taking lottery teams seriously. Too many times have I seen them shoot cold or have defensive lapses whenever they face an under .500 team. Against the lesser teams, either they 1) treat the second half like practice or extended garbage time after having a superb 1st half or quarter or 2) overlook the school of fish that's in front of them just to go after the lunker, only for the Clippers to catch a side smack to the head, never knowing what hit 'em. To be clear on the term "lunker," this does not necessarily mean the Lakers, the Clipper's eternal nemesis, but basically any team that houses the face of the league like LeBron James and Michael Jordan, or any of the playoff representatives.

Just to prove my point, have a look at these Clipper records below.

Vs. Elite (the top 3 seeds in each conference, ordered as East, West)
- 2012-13: 4-2, 3-7
- 2013-14: 2-4, 3-4
- 2014-15: 1-5, 3-5
- 2015-16: 2-4, 2-9
- 2016-17: 4-2, 4-7
- 2017-18: 4-2, 4-8 (lottery)
- 2018-19: 1-5, 3-9

Vs. Lottery Teams (seeded 9th through 15th)
- 2012-13: 10-4, 22-5
- 2013-14: 12-2, 22-5
- 2014-15: 13-1, 23-3
- 2015-16: 13-1, 19-7
- 2016-17: 11-3, 16-10
- 2017-18: 11-3, 17-5 (lottery)
- 2018-19: 11-3, 18-8

A normal playoff team is supposed to be near .500 but not winless against the elite teams, and have winning records vs. lottery teams. If you're an elite team, your losses against lottery teams have to be close to, but not absolutely zero. Clippers losses vs. lottery teams over the years is an ongoing favorite concern of mine. As a guideline, the Lakers this season (of all teams) are perfect against opponents under .500. While the Lakers are often imitated but never duplicated, the Clippers have to show they aren't leaking losses. The 2016-17 and 2018-19 seasons each have them at double digit losses vs. lesser competition.

Who's the replacement? Who do you want to replace doc rivers that the coaches will respect? Do you want ty lue to take over? Sam Cassell? Rex? Another undiscovered diamond in the rough coach? Who do you want?

coaching is not just about x's and o's. its about managing personalities and the players love doc.

[esqtvd]

The minimum expectation I have with Clippers is taking lottery teams seriously.

Fine, but beating up on tomato cans proves nothing. Scoring 135 or 150 points on the worst defense in the league proves nothing. Doc knows better than to spend capital with his players on whether we beat lottery teams by 2 or 20 or 40. It's way too early to coach every game like a Game Seven. In fact, my criticism over the years has been that he did, and we'd arrive at the playoffs beat-up and tired.

This is not Doc Rivers c. 2015.

Today, he gave both Jerome and Terance more rope after very unimpressive starts. Robinson improved a bit; Mann did not. But Doc's coaching for April. As long as we stay in the hunt for a top 2 spot, this is still preseason both in terms of playing time and physical effort. You want to give the back of your bench some development minutes, and on the athletic side, Kawhi is not going to give you a Pat Bev buzzer-to-buzzer kamikaze effort on both ends [nor should we want him to].

Now, getting outclassed by the Bucks the other night was something to be concerned about, and hopefully the message was received. Doc was much more pleased with the offense today--we had 27 assists, only 10 turnovers, and great spacing. He said that unlike the Bucks debacle, we actually ran sets today.

That's what we need to be concerned about in December: working out the kinks, playing the right way. When you do, the win column takes care of itself.

[NippySudz]

The minimum expectation I have with Clippers is taking lottery teams seriously.

Fine, but beating up on tomato cans proves nothing. Scoring 135 or 150 points on the worst defense in the league proves nothing. Doc knows better than to spend capital with his players on whether we beat lottery teams by 2 or 20 or 40. It's way too early to coach every game like a Game Seven. In fact, my criticism over the years has been that he did, and we'd arrive at the playoffs beat-up and tired.

This is not Doc Rivers c. 2015.

Today, he gave both Jerome and Terance more rope after very unimpressive starts. Robinson improved a bit; Mann did not. But Doc's coaching for April. As long as we stay in the hunt for a top 2 spot, this is still preseason both in terms of playing time and physical effort. You want to give the back of your bench some development minutes, and on the athletic side, Kawhi is not going to give you a Pat Bev buzzer-to-buzzer kamikaze effort on both ends [nor should we want him to].

Now, getting outclassed by the Bucks the other night was something to be concerned about, and hopefully the message was received. Doc was much more pleased with the offense today--we had 27 assists, only 10 turnovers, and great spacing. He said that unlike the Bucks debacle, we actually ran sets today.

That's what we need to be concerned about in December, working out the kinks, playing the right way. When you do, the win column takes care of itself.

I think that's going to be his MO all year long. Give the young guys more burn in games against .500 teams. It's a good thing to do. Keeps the whole team engaged. Honestly, mann shouldn't even been having the minutes he had. Same goes for robinson, but its the addition of doc giving young guy more mins + kawhi load management.

But seriously, I hate seeing robinson on the floor. I rather see mann on the floor. I know mann will mess up, but I feel his ceiling is higher and he'll learn from those mistakes. Vs robinson who is in year two and doesn't know how to manage and play game clock.

[esqtvd]

I think that's going to be his MO all year long. Give the young guys more burn in games against .500 teams. It's a good thing to do. Keeps the whole team engaged. Honestly, mann shouldn't even been having the minutes he had. Same goes for robinson, but its the addition of doc giving young guy more mins + kawhi load management.

But seriously, I hate seeing robinson on the floor. I rather see mann on the floor. I know mann will mess up, but I feel his ceiling is higher and he'll learn from those mistakes. Vs robinson who is in year two and doesn't know how to manage and play game clock.

Mann was MUCH worse than Robinson today, a team-worst [by far] minus-18 in only 11 minutes. You just couldn't leave him out there without risking a loss. He only got that much PT because we were shorthanded, and J-Myke was limited to 4 minutes himself. I mean, since he played most of his minutes with Trezz and Trezz finished at plus+2, that means Trezz was plus+20 in the minutes he wasn't saddled with Mann!

And even though Robinson sucked today, and even though in his last 9 games--since he joined the rotation--in 15.6 mpg, he's shooting only 27% and only 17% from 3, his D rating is under 100 and his net rating of +7.4 is very good. He hasn't been hurting the team--to the contrary.

So now you know why he's been getting meaningful minutes even though he's been a brick factory. Doc hasn't been gifting Robinson with PT--he's earning it, even if it hasn't been pretty. And imagine if his shot started dropping!

As for Mann, his time will come. But right now, the priority has to be getting Shamet going. He'll be back any day now.

[NippySudz]

I think that's going to be his MO all year long. Give the young guys more burn in games against .500 teams. It's a good thing to do. Keeps the whole team engaged. Honestly, mann shouldn't even been having the minutes he had. Same goes for robinson, but its the addition of doc giving young guy more mins + kawhi load management.

But seriously, I hate seeing robinson on the floor. I rather see mann on the floor. I know mann will mess up, but I feel his ceiling is higher and he'll learn from those mistakes. Vs robinson who is in year two and doesn't know how to manage and play game clock.

Mann was MUCH worse than Robinson today, a team-worst [by far] minus-18 in only 11 minutes. You just couldn't leave him out there without risking a loss. He only got that much PT because we were shorthanded, and J-Myke was limited to 4 minutes himself. I mean, since he played most of his minutes with Trezz and Trezz finished at plus+2, that means Trezz was plus+20 in the minutes he wasn't saddled with Mann!

And even though Robinson sucked today, and even though in his last 9 games--since he joined the rotation--in 15.6 mpg, he's shooting only 27% and only 17% from 3, his D rating is under 100 and his net rating of +7.4 is very good. He hasn't been hurting the team--to the contrary.

So now you know why he's been getting meaningful minutes even though he's been a brick factory. Doc hasn't been gifting Robinson with PT--he's earning it, even if it hasn't been pretty. And imagine if his shot started dropping!

As for Mann, his time will come. But right now, the priority has to be getting Shamet going. He'll be back any day now.

I know tmann was straight buttcheeks but I feel like him being terrible will pay dividends in the end to his development. I don't see any promise from Jerome Robinson.

I don't get his problem. Maybe needs a sports psychologists and slow the game fired in his end?

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[Forte IV]

I cant believe some of you are Clipper fans. Complaining every chance you get. It's embarrassing. Seriously. It's a long NBA season. I was literally at Bucks game and I could have cared less that we lost. Its December. This **** doesnt matter come playoffs. Kawhi and PG havent even played 10 games together and the team is still 2nd in the West 20 games in. Relax. Learn the value of patience.

[nickhx2]

if you're from wisconsin don't you really mean R-E-L-A-X

anyway q simplified it in one line. can't take these kinds of topics seriously.

[NippySudz]

I cant believe some of you are Clipper fans. Complaining every chance you get. It's embarrassing. Seriously. It's a long NBA season. I was literally at Bucks game and I could have cared less that we lost. Its December. This **** doesnt matter come playoffs. Kawhi and PG havent even played 10 games together and the team is still 2nd in the West 20 games in. Relax. Learn the value of patience.

Exactly.

Still waiting on these doc haters to come up with a better coach that's on the free market right now.

Hey, d'antoni might be available after this season

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[Forte IV]

if you're from wisconsin don't you really mean R-E-L-A-X

anyway q simplified it in one line. can't take these kinds of topics seriously.

From LA moved to Milwaukee

[MartinToVaught]

I cant believe some of you are Clipper fans. Complaining every chance you get. It's embarrassing. Seriously. It's a long NBA season. I was literally at Bucks game and I could have cared less that we lost. Its December. This **** doesnt matter come playoffs. Kawhi and PG havent even played 10 games together and the team is still 2nd in the West 20 games in. Relax. Learn the value of patience.

I can't believe there are longtime Clipper fans just blindly believing that everything's magically going to work out in the playoffs. When has that ever happened for this franchise?

[Forte IV]

I cant believe some of you are Clipper fans. Complaining every chance you get. It's embarrassing. Seriously. It's a long NBA season. I was literally at Bucks game and I could have cared less that we lost. Its December. This **** doesnt matter come playoffs. Kawhi and PG havent even played 10 games together and the team is still 2nd in the West 20 games in. Relax. Learn the value of patience.

I can't believe there are longtime Clipper fans just blindly believing that everything's magically going to work out in the playoffs. When has that ever happened for this franchise?

I'm not blindly believe everything will be magical and fairys and pixies will lead us to a championship. I'm saying have patience. Championship teams get blown out. Hell championship teams get blown out in the actual finals. Making a thread based off a bad game in December is childish and shows a lack of patience.

Accusing me of believing everything will magically happen is awfully hypocritical coming from the same group wanting to fire the head coach because of them believing in some magical fairy-tale world where the Clippers are what? 20-4 instead of 17-7? Not 2nd place in the West despite Kawhi and Paul George playing only 9 games together? The audacity.

[NippySudz]

I cant believe some of you are Clipper fans. Complaining every chance you get. It's embarrassing. Seriously. It's a long NBA season. I was literally at Bucks game and I could have cared less that we lost. Its December. This **** doesnt matter come playoffs. Kawhi and PG havent even played 10 games together and the team is still 2nd in the West 20 games in. Relax. Learn the value of patience.

I can't believe there are longtime Clipper fans just blindly believing that everything's magically going to work out in the playoffs. When has that ever happened for this franchise?

Still waiting on your answer on who should over take doc this season if you want him gone in the middle of the season

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