Kawhi undergoes surgery for partial ACL tear

[KL2]

I doubt Leonard cares what Twitter thinks.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[nickhx2]

really wish that more people were better willing to settle their expectations with kawhi.

yes, he's been out for a while and for us non-athletes it sure seems like a year and a half off of basketball should be enough, right?

but if you've ever been injured, or dealt with dramatic changes in muscle/bone, you'd know that every person's experience is unique to them in some way, shape, or form. setbacks happen all the time, regardless of how much preparation you have or how good your staff is, because human physiology is insanely complex.

add that to the fact that these are like the most exceptional athletes on the planet, so it's not so simple as to say "oh well he's had a buncha time off he should be fine, right?" well, no, because muscles are weird in their own way. pain is weird in its own way. and re-introducing them to stress is the only way to get them back to normal, but there is NO stress that is the equivalent of real, NBA game time.

so if kawhi's knee is stiff after some games? guess what? that's his body saying "uh, i don't like that movement you're doing, and i'm not ready for it just yet." that doesn't mean he won't ever be ready, but if marcus morris is any decent indication of what can happen with more time, then i'd personally be more optimistic about how kawhi will eventually look, too. and you guys know how much i love dumping on mr. "3 rebounds my career high, let's call it a night", because he looks like a brand new player out there.

so, you know, i hope for the best but i also think it's important to settle expectations from a guy coming off a major knee injury. recovery is not linear, as much as we would like it to be.

[esqtvd]

really wish that more people were better willing to settle their expectations with kawhi.

yes, he's been out for a while and for us non-athletes it sure seems like a year and a half off of basketball should be enough, right?

but if you've ever been injured, or dealt with dramatic changes in muscle/bone, you'd know that every person's experience is unique to them in some way, shape, or form. setbacks happen all the time, regardless of how much preparation you have or how good your staff is, because human physiology is insanely complex.

add that to the fact that these are like the most exceptional athletes on the planet, so it's not so simple as to say "oh well he's had a buncha time off he should be fine, right?" well, no, because muscles are weird in their own way. pain is weird in its own way. and re-introducing them to stress is the only way to get them back to normal, but there is NO stress that is the equivalent of real, NBA game time.

so if kawhi's knee is stiff after some games? guess what? that's his body saying "uh, i don't like that movement you're doing, and i'm not ready for it just yet." that doesn't mean he won't ever be ready, but if marcus morris is any decent indication of what can happen with more time, then i'd personally be more optimistic about how kawhi will eventually look, too. and you guys know how much i love dumping on mr. "3 rebounds my career high, let's call it a night", because he looks like a brand new player out there.

so, you know, i hope for the best but i also think it's important to settle expectations from a guy coming off a major knee injury. recovery is not linear, as much as we would like it to be.

Thanks for carrying the game threads, Nick. I start 'em, you keep them afloat. They mostly get ruined for me immediately by the usual jerkkoffs booing their own team. And I'm from Philly ffs!!
__________________


I think the skepticism stems from Kawhi's declining [refusing] to play for--or even communicate with--Popovich and the Spurs org when he was hurt, and then forcing a trade out of town. Then breaking the city of Toronto's heart by denying them the chance to defend their title.

I'm not down on him and not mad at him--it's a business and Kawhi does what's best for Kawhi. But I am skeptical--some guys simply won't play unless they're 100%. Reggie is playing with a groin pull and as much grief as I gave Senior, he played at less than 100% the last couple years and averaged 50+ games and almost 30 mpg.

What's dawning on Clipper Nation now is that even if we get Kawhi back and even if we get that chip this year, the grand Ballmer vision of a dominating team for the next 2-3 years is looking increasingly unlikely. Kawhi is Kawhi: You can't build a team around him. Even when healthy he's just not your leader, not the face of your franchise.
__________________

ADD: The irony is that Pandemic P is becoming that guy. But that's another story.

Read on Twitter

[TrueLAfan]

Yeah, I think a lot of this is rust. I also think that Kawhi is adapting physically and mentally to being a different player. People kept/keep talking about how big he is, especially his thighs. I see that and I think “Low post position”—in other words, more time at PF or even C. That, on top of everything else, is a big switch. It’s also one that would help a lot. But … lots of rust and slow slogging in the comeback. Tough but necessary to wait.

Great post about tempered expectations as well. We already saw that we could win without Kawhi—and PG13 too—last year. We’re not doing it this year—but last year shows this is not an issue with Kawhi and/or PG. We look lackadaisical out there. I’ve been especially bummed about Powell and Covington and Batum on offense. Powell is just shooting like crap; that’ll come around. The bottom line is we should be (a lot) more competitive than we’ve shown, Kawhi or no Kawhi.

[Clemenza]

You can taper all the expectations all you want but if the guy never talks, his camp doesn't talk, the team won't talk because that's the agreement they have with Kawhi, then these mysteries, questions, and lack of trust from the fans to the media to the team will eventually happen 100%. It is what it is, you can't sugar coat and put a positive spin on this sort of thing. He's the only player in the league that keeps everyone in the dark. Even AD -laugh at him being called "Street Clothes" if you want to but at the end of the day you know if he's going to miss significant time on the court or not. Kawhi brings all this upon himself. I'm frustrated at him but not mad at him. I just wish the team would call the shot on whether he's going to be out for a while and then we can move forward. Is that too much to ask?

[Cavsfansince84]

You can taper all the expectations all you want but if the guy never talks, his camp doesn't talk, the team won't talk because that's the agreement they have with Kawhi, then these mysteries, questions, and lack of trust from the fans to the media to the team will eventually happen 100%. It is what it is, you can't sugar coat and put a positive spin on this sort of thing. He's the only player in the league that keeps everyone in the dark. Even AD -laugh at him being called "Street Clothes" if you want to but at the end of the day you know if he's going to miss significant time on the court or not. Kawhi brings all this upon himself. I'm frustrated at him but not mad at him. I just wish the team would call the shot on whether he's going to be out for a while and then we can move forward. Is that too much to ask?

I agree in the sense that Kawhi has both acted and been treated like some sort of mythical beast ever since 2018 in terms of what fans are allowed to know about him and his ongoing medical issues. People are understandably tired of it all.

[esqtvd]

You can taper all the expectations all you want but if the guy never talks, his camp doesn't talk, the team won't talk because that's the agreement they have with Kawhi, then these mysteries, questions, and lack of trust from the fans to the media to the team will eventually happen 100%. It is what it is, you can't sugar coat and put a positive spin on this sort of thing. He's the only player in the league that keeps everyone in the dark. Even AD -laugh at him being called "Street Clothes" if you want to but at the end of the day you know if he's going to miss significant time on the court or not. Kawhi brings all this upon himself. I'm frustrated at him but not mad at him. I just wish the team would call the shot on whether he's going to be out for a while and then we can move forward. Is that too much to ask?

I agree in the sense that Kawhi has both acted and been treated like some sort of mythical beast ever since 2018 in terms of what fans are allowed to know about him and his ongoing medical issues. People are understandably tired of it all.

Exactly. This is not how the team leader behaves. Steph, Bron, and Giannis lead their teams. Embiid, Joker, KD and Kawhi don't. It doesn't make them bad people but it leaves a void that nobody else can fill. [Although PG is trying.]

[nickhx2]

if that's his wish then that's his right. he doesn't owe anyone anything regardless of whatever attention or affections or monies we spend to watch them play.

they're not minstrels. they're players. the league rests on their shoulders. additionally, kawhi's one of the quietest players the league has ever seen and when healthy he comes in, does his job spectacularly well, and goes home. so i mean consider me actually baffled when people come in getting upset or annoyed or tired of his being quiet about his issues - like did people not know who this guy has been from day 1? did he somehow provide the expectation that he would say or do literally ANYTHING differently from how what he's done in the past?

perhaps more importantly, i think at least a couple of you guys might have a misconception of how injuries and recovery from injuries work. like there's these insane assumptions that the org knows when kawhi will be ready, or when lue knows when he'll be ready, and they're just keeping it a secret. did you guys ever consider the most straightforward and sensible version? that they don't actually know, because nobody actually knows, including kawhi himself? again, recovery in non-linear so kawhi can easily be feeling rough one day, and then the next day feeling way better, and by next week feeling ready to play. or it could be great, then terrible, then worse - it's a day to day thing so yeah, we don't know. it's wait and see, and it's likely going to be wait and see for the foreseeable future because kawhi's knee will have to slowly reacclimate itself to those real, NBA live reps and not a single person on the planet will know exactly how it will go.

[esqtvd]

if that's his wish then that's his right. he doesn't owe anyone anything regardless of whatever attention or affections or monies we spend to watch them play.

they're not minstrels. they're players. the league rests on their shoulders. additionally, kawhi's one of the quietest players the league has ever seen and when healthy he comes in, does his job spectacularly well, and goes home. so i mean consider me actually baffled when people come in getting upset or annoyed or tired of his being quiet about his issues - like did people not know who this guy has been from day 1? did he somehow provide the expectation that he would say or do literally ANYTHING differently from how what he's done in the past?

perhaps more importantly, i think at least a couple of you guys might have a misconception of how injuries and recovery from injuries work. like there's these insane assumptions that the org knows when kawhi will be ready, or when lue knows when he'll be ready, and they're just keeping it a secret. did you guys ever consider the most straightforward and sensible version? that they don't actually know, because nobody actually knows, including kawhi himself? again, recovery in non-linear so kawhi can easily be feeling rough one day, and then the next day feeling way better, and by next week feeling ready to play. or it could be great, then terrible, then worse - it's a day to day thing so yeah, we don't know. it's wait and see, and it's likely going to be wait and see for the foreseeable future because kawhi's knee will have to slowly reacclimate itself to those real, NBA live reps and not a single person on the planet will know exactly how it will go.

An athlete may owe nothing to his team and teammates--yes, it is a business--but that's not how winning teams work. Your best player is your leader. Fortunately for the Raptors, they still had Kyle Lowry and he, Steph, Bron, and Giannis own the last 8 rings. This is not a coincidence.

If and when Kawhi comes around from this injury, judging from his medical history, there will likely be another one sooner rather than later. He has played only 175 games over the last 5 seasons, no more than 60 in any given year, and is now going back to "load management" when he does return.

None of this makes him a bad person but

What's dawning on Clipper Nation now is that even if we get Kawhi back and even if we get that chip this year, the grand Ballmer vision of a dominating team for the next 2-3 years is looking increasingly unlikely. Kawhi is Kawhi: You can't build a team around him. Even when healthy he's just not your leader, not the face of your franchise.

[wco81]

Someone brought up how last year, Kawhi stayed in the luxury box with his family instead of down on the bench with his teammates when they were in the play-in game?

But he's always been like that, more introverted.

He can't avoid the press though. The NBA and teams depend a lot on players doing post game shows at least. Of course he's not playing, probably not even at the games or at least in the locker room and down at the floor.

I believe the league has fined some teams when players failed to show up for "press availability." NBA is trying to generate as much ratings and fan interest as possible. They're trying to get a big new TV contract. So players can't just show up for games and book.

[esqtvd]

Someone brought up how last year, Kawhi stayed in the luxury box with his family instead of down on the bench with his teammates when they were in the play-in game?

But he's always been like that, more introverted.

He can't avoid the press though. The NBA and teams depend a lot on players doing post game shows at least. Of course he's not playing, probably not even at the games or at least in the locker room and down at the floor.

I believe the league has fined some teams when players failed to show up for "press availability." NBA is trying to generate as much ratings and fan interest as possible. They're trying to get a big new TV contract. So players can't just show up for games and book.

whether he plays or not

whether he's in the building or not

whether he's even in the same state

Kawhi Leonard Salary Breakdown for the 2021-22 NBA season based on his current Salary of $39,344,900 is $3,278,742 per Month, $546,457 per Game, $136,614 per Quarter, and $11,385 per Minute.

for $11K per minute I could be there in my street clothes
hell I'll even wear a tie

[Quake Griffin]

The active full court press for this man started in 2017?

2023 is around the corner and we have 3 seasons under our belt.

1. Bubble choke.
2. Tore acl in playoffs
3. Lost season

[KL2]

Read on Twitter

I missed this the other day.

To recap in case you don’t want to watch or can’t:

He doesn’t believe this is a serious injury or setback for Leonard.

He says Leonard wants to play but Clippers are erring on the absolute side of caution. Their goal is to make sure he’s healthy come playoff time.

That Leonard didn’t play in any 2/2, 3/3, or 5/5 during rehab. His first real practice/playing time didn’t come until training camp.

He doesn’t know when Leonard will return. There’s a lot of b2b games, one day off in between with little practice time to see how Leonard responds to that.

So … not serious but it’ll be awhile before we see him???

[nickhx2]

i think it's important to distinguish exactly what "not serious" can mean, so yeah - it can not serious in the sense that there is no major pain or structural damage in what's going on - it's just a physical response of stiffness, so i think that all tracks rationally.

and it can also track it will be a while before we see him because either there's that stiffness response still ongoing, so they have to wait for it to subside, or that it's occurring after each workout and they have to wait for his knee to have zero pain/stiffness/whatever responses after those workouts before they want to put him on the court. typically after an injury, some discomfort or low level pain is pretty normal when doing rehab or jumping back into action. but the greater the response (whether it be pain or discomfort, which in this case is stiffness) the more important it is to properly monitor the rehab and return meticulously.

sounds like in kawhi's case the team just wants to be overly abundant on caution and have him be completely free of discomfort before playing, which maybe is ok? or maybe overprotective? hard to say what's right but also hard to blame the team, because it IS a major injury with a guy who has chronic issue, and it's for the most important player on the team.

[nickhx2]

i should also add that i think it's an important point about the 5v5's, 3v3's, 2v2's that were brought up:

kawhi potentially could have run into these setbacks earlier in the offseason by playing legit basketball, such that he would've actually been 100% back and ready for the regular season. i mean he did say when asked about last year, that he would've played in the finals if they'd gotten to that point. so it strikes me that kawhi felt just doing his typical workouts and routine was good enough to prepare him and his knee for the regular season. so if that's the case, then yeah, he could've gotten ahead of it by playing basketball a little earlier. and if so, i mean i don't really blame kawhi because he's not that guy - he doesn't play basketball for the joy of it, it seems.

obviously that's just speculation but that kinda makes sense to me. regardless, we're here now and while i'm hopeful that it's not that big of a deal, and disappointed he's not fully back yet, i'm also fairly optimistic we'll be ok because it just sounds like he needs more time. there's no real bad news here, like "kawhi played and then was sent back to LA to have MRI's, x-rays, and seeing dr. neal attrache the surgeon of superstar athletes worldwide who you see when things are really bad, and oh no now kawhi's looking for a second opinion, blah blah blah"

so yeah, i think we just need to be patient

[MartinToVaught]

Personally, it's not even Kawhi I'm bothered with, it's our atrocious medical staff. The more vague and evasive they are, the more I remember the ridiculous way they handled Luc Mbah a Moute's injury a few years ago, and the more I start fearing the worst.

[esqtvd]

The active full court press for this man started in 2017?

2023 is around the corner and we have 3 seasons under our belt.

1. Bubble choke.
2. Tore acl in playoffs
3. Lost season

all we know is that we don't know

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[madmaxmedia]

I'd rather he be uncommunicative but end up reasonably healthy, than have a long setback and vlog every day about all the details.

[nickhx2]

also a much better alternative to whatever they're doing in Brooklyn lol

[NickP]

Why not simply shelve Kawhi till the AS break? I'm sure we can tread water until then?