WOJ Clippers sign Ty Lue to a long term contract

[MartinToVaught]

Yes, hindsight is 100%.

It isn't hindsight. I was saying all last summer that trading for Harden would be the dumbest thing we could do. If a random fan could see this obvious disaster coming from a mile away, there's no excuse for Frank not to have done the same. And there's no reason for Frank to still be employed when he's been wrong on virtually every decision for years.

[Clemenza]

Every coach has their quirks and nuances, Kidd was considered a terrible coach all regular season by many Mavs fans, even when he started coaching them to a top defense after the trade, etc

Suddenly in the playoffs many people don't know how to talk about Kidd, is he lucky? Maybe he's not that bad? Maybe they simply didn't know as much as they felt they did? Etc, etc

That's the first thing to acknowledge, as fans, our evaluation of own teams coach is generally questionable and more negative than reality. Okay, but that doesn't mean there's never valid criticism.

Multiple Roles
Next is this, being a head coach is a job with more than one role, but many of us as fans judge mostly on just part of the job description.

There are excellent x/o guys who would be awful as head coaches because they don't manage personalities well, might not be good at listening to others, so they don't foster good collaboration, and maybe don't know how to motivate/"rally the troops". That guy is likely an assistant for life who gets a head coaching gig for a short time then goes back to assistant and people ask, "but why was he fired, he's so good at x/os".

The head coach job is a combination of leadership, people management, motivation, x/o's, delegation and collaboration, not just how well you can draw up a play, how you manage rotations or what offensive or defensive schemes you can come up with.

What I can say about Lue is that he seems to be a guy who is solid at many areas even if people say, "oh he isn't great at this, or he doesn't do this thing that well". That helps him.

Easily Disposable
The Clippers limitations as a team so far are not about Lue. In addition, as we know in the NBA, a long coaching contract means very little in terms of job security. How many teams are currently paying Vogel for example? Coaching contracts are the owners money and don't affect cap, so I don't care much about coaching contract lengths when teams fire guys and pay them for 3, 4 years after all the time.

evaluating coaching is such a funny thing. one of those cognitive dissonance things where you don't realize just how little you know, until you wade into the depths. but as much as we might like to educate ourselves and understand more, basketball fans won't ever be allowed to step foot into said depths.

coaching i think is one of those things that happens to be far greater of an unsolvable mystery because we don't know how the day to day interactions go. we don't know how the players respond to this feedback or that. we don't know the locker-room conversations, the chemistry, and we will NEVER know a whole host of TOO MANY things in regards to what's behind the curtain - where conversely an amateur researcher could look up studies online in any number of fields in any number of credible scientific journals, and educate themselves to a greater relative degree of proficiency, with a greater insight to whatever big pictures are going on there.

so yeah, agree.

Doesn't it seem like the firings are quicker and more numerous? And though the game of musical chairs is absurd, first-time coaches seem to win Coach of the Year then join the fired-hired-fired carousel themselves.

The Monty Williams story is a hoot. After winning COY with the Hornets/Pelicans, he was eventually let go. 4 years later, he got the Suns gig in 2019. Then after a Finals appearance in 2021

On March 9, 2022, Williams was named the 2021–22 season NBA Coach of the Year leading the Suns to a franchise record in wins at 64–18 and the best record in the league after finishing second the year prior in the voting.

On July 27, 2022, the Suns signed Williams to a multi-year contract extension.

On May 13, 2023, the Suns fired Williams after losing to the eventual champion Denver Nuggets in the Western Conference semifinals of the 2023 NBA playoffs.

From genius to turkey in less than 18 months. He's now on this third HC job in NBA Siberia with the Pistons.

Its the scapegoat era for coaches now. The coaches are now being the face of the bad front office and ownership moves. The Suns owner Matt Ishbia screwed up that roster so bad after the Beal trade so of course Vogal had to take the fall again. Bron and Klutch Sports runs the Lakers so Ham was out. Now Bron's podcast buddy is the top candidate for the Lakers head coaching job and his son will get drafted in the 2nd round by them supposedly. Griffin in Milwaukee, Bickerstaff in Cleveland(the players didn't like him and Mitchell wanted him gone if they wanted to resign with the Cavs). Detroit would love to fire Monty but they owe him too much money. Kings want to dump Mike Brown. Jason Kidd was almost done in Dallas until they struck gold with Gafford and Washington. **** is wild

[esqtvd]

Yes, hindsight is 100%.

It isn't hindsight. I was saying all last summer that trading for Harden would be the dumbest thing we could do. If a random fan could see this obvious disaster coming from a mile away, there's no excuse for Frank not to have done the same.

Meh. It made little measurable difference. Batum missed tons of games and so did RoCo. KJ Martin barely got off the bench. Marcus Morris was dumped. The first-rounders are years away.

It didn't work, but because of Kawhi's injury, not from a bad plan. And this is on Ballmer, not Frank. He closed the deal with Sixers owner Josh Harris personally. The 213 experiment was going nowhere and Ballmer went all-in. It's his team. He went for it.

He was also looking at Kawhi and PG bolting at season's end unless he did SOMETHING, and ending up with a starting lineup of Mann and Zu and Powell and a bunch of G-League dreck to open the Ballmerdome. A 30-win team, tops. Uh uh.

Just because a plan doesn't work doesn't mean it was stupid. That's hindsight talking.

[MartinToVaught]

Its the scapegoat era for coaches now. The coaches are now being the face of the bad front office and ownership moves. The Suns owner Matt Ishbia screwed up that roster so bad after the Beal trade so of course Vogal had to take the fall again. Bron and Klutch Sports runs the Lakers so Ham was out. Now Bron's podcast buddy is the top candidate for the Lakers head coaching job and his son will get drafted in the 2nd round by them supposedly. Griffin in Milwaukee, Bickerstaff in Cleveland(the players didn't like him and Mitchell wanted him gone if they wanted to resign with the Cavs). Detroit would love to fire Monty but they owe him too much money. Kings want to dump Mike Brown. Jason Kidd was almost done in Dallas until they struck gold with Gafford and Washington. **** is wild

On the other hand, the NBA keeps recycling the same names instead of giving anyone new a chance. There are a ton of great coaches in Europe who will never get a chance because Blatt failed once, but Doc can fail over and over again and always find a new coaching job.

Maybe job security at a specific team isn't what it used to be for coaches, but once you've been an NBA head coach for long enough, it's almost impossible to stop getting hired. I mean, we're talking about head coaching job #4 for Vogel and Brown and #3 for Kidd and Monty. And they get paid a lot of money. They still have it pretty good, all things considered.

[esqtvd]

evaluating coaching is such a funny thing. one of those cognitive dissonance things where you don't realize just how little you know, until you wade into the depths. but as much as we might like to educate ourselves and understand more, basketball fans won't ever be allowed to step foot into said depths.

coaching i think is one of those things that happens to be far greater of an unsolvable mystery because we don't know how the day to day interactions go. we don't know how the players respond to this feedback or that. we don't know the locker-room conversations, the chemistry, and we will NEVER know a whole host of TOO MANY things in regards to what's behind the curtain - where conversely an amateur researcher could look up studies online in any number of fields in any number of credible scientific journals, and educate themselves to a greater relative degree of proficiency, with a greater insight to whatever big pictures are going on there.

so yeah, agree.

Doesn't it seem like the firings are quicker and more numerous? And though the game of musical chairs is absurd, first-time coaches seem to win Coach of the Year then join the fired-hired-fired carousel themselves.

The Monty Williams story is a hoot. After winning COY with the Hornets/Pelicans, he was eventually let go. 4 years later, he got the Suns gig in 2019. Then after a Finals appearance in 2021

On March 9, 2022, Williams was named the 2021–22 season NBA Coach of the Year leading the Suns to a franchise record in wins at 64–18 and the best record in the league after finishing second the year prior in the voting.

On July 27, 2022, the Suns signed Williams to a multi-year contract extension.

On May 13, 2023, the Suns fired Williams after losing to the eventual champion Denver Nuggets in the Western Conference semifinals of the 2023 NBA playoffs.

From genius to turkey in less than 18 months. He's now on this third HC job in NBA Siberia with the Pistons.

Its the scapegoat era for coaches now. The coaches are now being the face of the bad front office and ownership moves. The Suns owner Matt Ishbia screwed up that roster so bad after the Beal trade so of course Vogal had to take the fall again. Bron and Klutch Sports runs the Lakers so Ham was out. Now Bron's podcast buddy is the top candidate for the Lakers head coaching job and his son will get drafted in the 2nd round by them supposedly. Griffin in Milwaukee, Bickerstaff in Cleveland(the players didn't like him and Mitchell wanted him gone if they wanted to resign with the Cavs). Detroit would love to fire Monty but they owe him too much money. Kings want to dump Mike Brown. Jason Kidd was almost done in Dallas until they struck gold with Gafford and Washington. **** is wild

Good summary. And Budenholzer [2 COYs and a Larry] is back on the carousel. His 3rd job in 10 years.

[MartinToVaught]

Yes, hindsight is 100%.

It isn't hindsight. I was saying all last summer that trading for Harden would be the dumbest thing we could do. If a random fan could see this obvious disaster coming from a mile away, there's no excuse for Frank not to have done the same.

Meh. It made little measurable difference. Batum missed tons of games and so did RoCo. KJ Martin barely got off the bench. Marcus Morris was dumped. The first-rounders are years away.

It didn't work, but because of Kawhi's injury, not from a bad plan. And this is on Ballmer, not Frank. He closed the deal with Sixers owner Josh Harris personally. The 213 experiment was going nowhere and Ballmer went all-in. It's his team. He went for it.

He was also looking at Kawhi and PG bolting at season's end unless he did SOMETHING, and ending up with a starting lineup of Mann and Zu and Powell and a bunch of G-League dreck to open the Ballmerdome. A 30-win team, tops. Uh uh.

Just because a plan doesn't work doesn't mean it was stupid. That's hindsight talking.

Mortgaging what was left of our future for "little measurable difference" is, in fact, a disaster when we were already stuck with the consequences of the PG trade. The only way the Harden trade could have been justified is if it made a huge difference for the better.

Kawhi's injury is not why the plan didn't work. He played his most games in a season since 2016-17 and they could still only muster a 4th seed. They were 15-14 after the All-Star break (the 11th-best record in the West), clearly trending downward even before he got hurt. It's not difficult to imagine the Clippers losing in the first or second round even with a healthy Kawhi.

The actual reason it failed is because trading an entire decade of assets for a team of 35-year-olds is doomed to fail.

[esqtvd]

Asked and answered.

The 213 experiment was going nowhere and Ballmer went all-in. It's his team. He went for it.

He was also looking at Kawhi and PG bolting at season's end unless he did SOMETHING, and ending up with a starting lineup of Mann and Zu and Powell and a bunch of G-League dreck to open the Ballmerdome. A 30-win team, tops. Uh uh.

Ballmer chose to take a shot with Harden instead of perhaps/likely starting over with a 30-win team and a couple more draft picks in 2028 or whatever. 4 years of misery regardless. 213 + Beard didn't work but we won 51 games and still might be able to maintain a floor of 45 or so. That was Ballmer's choice. If I could see it coming, so did he.

[NickP]

Don't know what to think of this. If Lue is supposed to be a personality manager then he's not one. Buckling to a player's demand to play him is not managing personalities.

[og15]

The team can't repeat the sign you and trade you a few months later like they did with Blake, and especially not with multiple players together, because it will set a bad precedent among future players and FA's as to how the Clippers treat you.

I have always said that the Blake trade was handled deplorably from the moment it was made. But I do have to push back on this point. Kawhi and PG are not Blake and trading them would not be the same as trading him.

There's a certain emotional/symbolic importance with Blake as the drafted and developed star who turned our franchise around that 213 will never have, even if they're the better players on paper. Blake took on the challenge of the worst franchise in sports, gave it his all and never complained. Kawhi and PG have spent their entire time here making demands that by and large have not made the team better, then either choking or sitting on the bench in street clothes when it matters. Kawhi left the Spurs on bad terms and ditched Toronto after one year; PG demanded trades from his last two teams, so neither of them are known for being loyal either.

Most players have short memories for this kind of stuff anyway, but I also think any player who'd balk at this is the kind of player we probably should avoid. I know I have no interest in repeating the 213 era with different names, but the same attitudes, in the future.

NBA coaches are expendable.

Under a normal owner, sure, but Ballmer doesn't operate that way. Doc only got fired because the Lakers beat the same Nuggets team we had just choked to. The chokejob itself, and all the previous failures, weren't even enough to make Ballmer take action.

No matter how bad things get, I can't see Lue ever getting fired now unless he loses to the Lakers in the playoffs or does worse than them in a year where both teams are hyped as Finals contenders by the media. It's embarrassing that those are the criteria rather than the overall performance of our team, but it's hard to draw any other conclusion from Ballmer's track record.

I hate this the most:

1. Implement a bad idea (allegedly with good intentions to help).
2. See how poorly bad idea pans out.
3. Once everybody sees how poorly bad idea pans out, tell people, we have too much invested in bad idea to back out now OR x amount of people are relying on this bad idea and we cannot change course at this point....it would be...it would be...evil.

You see that play run enough times, you begin to wonder if Step 1 is done with good intentions at all. The word wonder there is a euphemism for "roll your eyes when thinking".

These guys aren't close to Blake - who signed with us and was supposed to be a part of a big middle finger to CP3 and the rest of the league. He didn't even get to finish a full season as top dog in his prime.

This isn't the same. These guys have good enough agents who can explain to them why Ballmer did what he did. If they can't see that, then good. Don't sign here. That is not an excuse to do nothing and just watch until Kawhi completely falls off a cliff.

You both went with the, "Blake is different path", but the issue is not about the relevance of the player to the franchise.

The issue is about perception of the franchise to star(ish) type players and their agents. You're just going to have guys asking for things like no trade clauses.

It's a trust issue as obviously a free agent is choosing your destination and generally doesn't want to choose your destination on a long term contract and get sent to a random location with 3, 4 years left on a contract.

Clippers can do what they want, but let's not be naive that it would have no effect if they did that, it will.

Also, why does the alternate option have to be or nothing? My point was simply that they would need to pace themselves and not just hit January next year and trade all the high paid guys.


In regards to Lue not being expendable, people said the same thing about Doc. Coaches (most) are expendable, and Lue is not a Spoelstra or Pop or someone like that.

[esqtvd]

You both went with the, "Blake is different path", but the issue is not about the relevance of the player to the franchise.

The issue is about perception of the franchise to star(ish) type players and their agents. You're just going to have guys asking for things like no trade clauses.

It's a trust issue as obviously a free agent is choosing your destination and generally doesn't want to choose your destination on a long term contract and get sent to a random location with 3, 4 years left on a contract.

Clippers can do what they want, but let's not be naive that it would have no effect if they did that, it will.

Also, why does the alternate option have to be or nothing? My point was simply that they would need to pace themselves and not just hit January next year and trade all the high paid guys.


In regards to Lue not being expendable, people said the same thing about Doc. Coaches (most) are expendable, and Lue is not a Spoelstra or Pop or someone like that.

Ballmer got away with hosing Blake and cashing him in for some nice assets. But I said at the time it was a cheesy move and he might pay for it someday. Especially after pulling that "Clipper for Life" bit.

Clipper for As Long As It Takes to Trade Up.

Kawhi and PG REEEEEALY want to be in LA and overlooked Ballmer's backstabbing. Plus Blake isn't that likeable anyway so he got no sympathy points. But if Nic Batum--who gave Ballmer a hometown discount--had made a stink about being shipped off against his will instead of being the total class act he is, things might have got ugly. And as you say, at least Batum put in 2+ years here before being traded. Not signed & dumped.

He understood the trade. It was enough of a run here that he might even agree to come back for a final season in the town he wanted to be in the first place! And speaking of Ty, Nico credits Ty and the Clippers with rekindling the flame to play after he got bought out by the Hornets. It's all rather a delicate balance.


Let's add unrestricted free agents willing to come play for your team based on the coach. FREE TALENT. Kawhi came to DOC'S HOUSE in Malibu when he agreed to sign here--Doc was part of the pitch. Frankly, Doc was allowed to take the fall for Kawhi and then Embiid's choking in the playoffs, aided and abetted by PG and Beard pointing fingers at him.

But PG and Beard can't pull that act again on Ty and blame HIM after ANOTHER playoff choke. That would be too obvious. And by re-signing TY before PG and Beard, Ballmer could be sending a message about who's boss. NO MORE ALIBIS.

I'm not an x and o guy, but I made a lot of money as a headhunter making informed guesses what was behind the veil of organizational dynamics. I start with "What Would Ballmer Do" since I'm about the same age. My guesses have been pretty accurate over the years. I don't even try to guess what SHOULD be done. Anybody can say wipe the slate and start over but Ballmer isn't buying that.

He remade the Clippers between Lob City and 213 without the 6-year humiliation that the Lakers put their fans through between Kobe's retirement and LeBron's arrival. Things are even more grim now since Ballmer has no draft picks and his fellow owners SCREWED him with the new CBA.

So he'll temporize. Re-sign the Over the Hill Gang, open the Ballmerdome, aim for 45-47 wins and sort it out as we go along. The sal cap will be going up, there are plenty of minimum FAs whose first choice will be Los Angeles, and the Clippers in particular with an incredible new arena, top practice facilities, great meals, hotels and a chartered plane, a championship coach and the richest owner in sports.

It's not all bad.

[esqtvd]

Don't know what to think of this. If Lue is supposed to be a personality manager then he's not one. Buckling to a player's demand to play him is not managing personalities.

In the 26-5 run, neither Tucker nor Kobe Brown had played a lick. PJ had no room to talk while the team was winning without him. So he stfu.

Then both last year and this, the team hit a bump and the cure was obvious. A PF. Sorry, Mann-stans, but he was a fill-in for a real PF so Kawhi could play SF and George could outclass everyone as a 6-7 SG.

When the FO won't buy out a respected but now ineffective veteran for strategic financial reasons, the only solution is to play PJ/Mook--put up or shut up. Let's see what you have left, tough guy.

Nothing, as it turned out. Although the Cavs were so desperate for a PF they gave Mook some important minutes.

And at 6-9, Jeff Green is STILL getting NBA minutes at age 37. And they laughed when we traded for him at age 29.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenje02.html

Just don't even. Not you Nick. But they know NOTHING.

[MartinToVaught]

In regards to Lue not being expendable, people said the same thing about Doc.

And they were right. It had been obvious since the Houston series in 2015 (if not earlier) that Doc needed to go, but Ballmer still never even entertained a coaching change until 2020, when his obsession with the Lakers won out over his fear of change. If the Lakers had lost to Denver in the bubble, Doc would probably still be our coach right now.

Similarly, the product we've had to sit through over the last two years would have gotten Lue fired by 29 out of 30 franchises. Ballmer rewarded him with a longterm contract extension and one of the highest coaching salaries instead.

There's a difference between coaches being expendable in general and coaches being expendable to Ballmer. The latter is the only thing that matters for the Clippers since he's the one signing the checks.

[MartinToVaught]

Read on Twitter

Ballmer got schooled by the Lakers. They namedropped him in their coaching search to get him to overpay Lue to stay here. Now they're going to hire a coach who's lightyears better than Lue. This entire offseason has been one kick in the nuts after another.

This should be a wake-up call to Ballmer to start paying attention to his own team instead of the Lakers and gimmicks, but he never learns from past mistakes, so I doubt it.

[KL2]

Lue, Ballmer, and Frank licking their chops watching the finals. They can’t wait to use PJ against Porzingas.

[MartinToVaught]

Part of the allure of Hurley traces back to the changing landscape of NBA roster building under the collective bargaining agreement. Because of the roster-building limitations of the new second apron, the ability of big-market teams to construct contending rosters by trading multiple draft picks and young players for a third star player has largely been eliminated. Beyond the 17th pick in this month's draft, the Lakers have a young core of Austin Reaves, Rui Hachimura and Max Christie that management believes can still show even greater improvement under Hurley's coaching, sources said.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40289529/sources-lakers-preparing-massive-offer-uconn-dan-hurley

This is exactly what some of us have been saying about the new CBA. While other teams like the Lakers adjust to the new rules and start taking player development more seriously, Ballmer is going to get us trapped in second-apron hell and set us back another few years by running it back with our old fossils. Even if Hurley decides to stay at UConn, the Lakers are still more directionally correct about where the NBA is trending than the Clippers are, and that alone is significant.

You can quibble with Woj's assessment of Reaves, Rui and Christie, but the depressing truth is: Jeanie Buss is now a better owner who's more in touch with reality than Ballmer is.

[KL2]

The sad thing is they know they have to adjust. Lawrence Frank talked about it after last seasons exit. They simply don’t care and give the finger to it. They want to win with the oldest, slowest, injury riddled, least athletic team even if it kills them.

[ejftw]

Hurley was a good recruiter, that saw how the NC2A landscape is changing with NILs and schools being able to (or it's almost here) pay players, the way senior transfers are and realized this is his chance to get paid. I'm not saying he's a bad coach or he's going to fail, just the fact is, he's making the jump to get paid and how often do we see college coaches make the jump and falter? Outside of Billy Donovan and Brad Stevens, not sure any are over .500.

It's an entirely different ball game, egos are bigger, game is different. Lakers are doing th right thing gambling with Hurley over JJ imo, but to say we should've let them hire Lue and take the gamble is going the other way.

I mean, what's next? We should hire Gary McKnight if Mater Dei?

[MartinToVaught]

Read on Twitter

Well, this is a relief. The Lakers still understand the new CBA better than Ballmer does, so that's still annoying, but at least they aren't getting the next Pop/Spo as coach on top of that.

Also, "one of the top six highest-paid coaches" - so much for that "massive, historic" offer the media was hyping up all last week. The Lakers obviously made Hurley's decision easier by being so cheap. They really thought he'd give up a chance at a threepeat for less money than Monty Williams is getting paid in Detroit.

[KingCrimzzon]

Read on Twitter

Well, this is a relief. The Lakers still understand the new CBA better than Ballmer does, so that's still annoying, but at least they aren't getting the next Pop/Spo as coach on top of that.

Also, "one of the top six highest-paid coaches" - so much for that "massive, historic" offer the media was hyping up all last week. The Lakers obviously made Hurley's decision easier by being so cheap. They really thought he'd give up a chance at a threepeat for less money than Monty Williams is getting paid in Detroit.

Relief indeed! Yeah, your compelling offer isn't to make the most decorated college coach in recent memory the highest paid coach in the NBA?! Seems LAL still sees coaches as transient fixtures to be fired at [Lebozo's] whim. I also don't think anyone really wants to work with LeBJ either. Looks like JJ Reddick is back on the menu boys!

[esqtvd]

Read on Twitter

Well, this is a relief. The Lakers still understand the new CBA better than Ballmer does, so that's still annoying, but at least they aren't getting the next Pop/Spo as coach on top of that.

Also, "one of the top six highest-paid coaches" - so much for that "massive, historic" offer the media was hyping up all last week. The Lakers obviously made Hurley's decision easier by being so cheap. They really thought he'd give up a chance at a threepeat for less money than Monty Williams is getting paid in Detroit.

Relief indeed! Yeah, your compelling offer isn't to make the most decorated college coach in recent memory the highest paid coach in the NBA?! Seems LAL still sees coaches as transient fixtures to be fired at [Lebozo's] whim. I also don't think anyone really wants to work with LeBJ either. Looks like JJ Reddick is back on the menu boys!

There is some talk that being the family business and not just a billionaire's plaything, the Buss Lakers are a bit cash-strapped and don't have an unlimited budget for non-player expenses--which includes coaching and staff.

Remember, Ty turned them down.

But the deal ultimately fell apart. The Lakers reportedly offered Lue only a three-year deal—the same pact they eventually signed Vogel to—and wanted input on his staff. Lue declined, and in a recent interview with ESPN's Ohm Youngmisuk, explained that it was a matter of respect.

"The Lakers [saw it] more so as like [I'm just] coming to coach LeBron," Lue said. "No, I'm coming to win. I just didn't think I was treated fairly. And I wasn't just going to accept any offer just to get a job.

"I just thought I was better than that."

In fact, iirc, Ballmer has mentioned that he still retains a competitive advantage over the competition, no matter how they rig the CBA. LA has the richest expense account and location, location, location. He'll cobble a winner together somehow.

Frankly, Hurley doesn't have a lot to look forward to once LeBron leaves or retires. The Lakers were terrible when Kobe was retiring and were horrible until LeBron gifted them with his presence. Aside from a perennially gimpy AD, there may not be a 20-point scorer on the roster or in the organization. Austin Reaves was a lovely surprise as an undrafted free agent but he's a long way from the guys who are scoring 25 ppp before they're 25.

I'm not at all bullish the Lakers' future and neither was Hurley, apparently.