GAME 69: Clippers (45-23) @ Raptors (27-41)— Tuesday 7:30PM PDT

[Clemenza]

George giving zero care about his turnover rate

True. Also a team-best plus+27. He has a cold and is playing in constant pain. He's showing up. That counts a lot with me.


There is not much to take away from this game--a pickup game vs a G-League team. Scatterass, our real players at about 3/4 speed just avoiding injury. Also bored out of their minds.

Not to burst any bubbles, but this is just the type of game T-Mann excels in--an inferior opponent and everybody else dogging it. Not really applicable to playoff basketball, where energy is the rule and bodies are flying everywhere. He hasn't passed up Reggie, let alone Bev. Bev's disruptive on-ball pressure on the other PG is among the best in the league. The great thing is that Reggie's up to full speed with the starters and if Bev gets himself into foul trouble we're covered. PLUS we have Rondo.

Mann is not a 1 at all. If he gets playoff minutes it'll be from somebody else. And don't count out Kennard--Ty said he'll alternate them to see which one works with which combinations. THAT'S who Mann's competing with for minutes, at the back of the rotation not the front. And tonight was a T-Mann game, not Kennard--the last Clipper I'd want on my pickup team.


NB: I'm sort of saying something nice here about Kennard, my least favorite Clipper. Well, my second-least favorite Clipper.

________________________

ADD: Maybe Ibaka is back soon. But Ty gave Zubac 30 minutes tonight in a laugher and Cousins only 7. That suggests that we're not counting on Ibaka or at least we ARE counting on Zu.

Great game--18/10/3 plus+23, second-best to PG. Since he got back on the first unit, he's picked up where he left off in The Bubble, the best basketball of his career.

Easy to forget Zu is almost a year younger than Mann and Kennard and only 2 months older than Coffey. I don't know how high his ceiling really is, but his floor keeps rising.

Mann has played well against better competition in numerous games. And Pat Bev is semi-washed out there. So he gets applause because he was clamping down on the Toronto second string rook Malachi Flynn? Yeah I like Pat's defense overall but that's all he should be doing is coming in in short spurts to disrupt a hot shooter for the opposing team. He can't run an offense or create an assist to save his life. I like when he knocks down an occasional three but lets not overrate the guy like this. At times I think his wild glares into the camera and outburst that has people believing he's doing more than what were actually seeing from him on the basketball court. He's not a point guard. He's a lumbering power forward in a guard's body. With Mann I'm seeing tenacious defense, an improving jump shot- probably on par with Pat Bev's at this point, assists, court vision, driving towards the rim, finishing ability, leaping ability, plus Pat Bev's fire and competitiveness. I'm sure Pat Bev will still be ahead of Mann in the rotation but its not the right move imo.

[RingColluder]

George giving zero care about his turnover rate

True. Also a team-best plus+27. He has a cold and is playing in constant pain. He's showing up. That counts a lot with me.


There is not much to take away from this game--a pickup game vs a G-League team. Scatterass, our real players at about 3/4 speed just avoiding injury. Also bored out of their minds.

Not to burst any bubbles, but this is just the type of game T-Mann excels in--an inferior opponent and everybody else dogging it. Not really applicable to playoff basketball, where energy is the rule and bodies are flying everywhere. He hasn't passed up Reggie, let alone Bev. Bev's disruptive on-ball pressure on the other PG is among the best in the league. The great thing is that Reggie's up to full speed with the starters and if Bev gets himself into foul trouble we're covered. PLUS we have Rondo.

Mann is not a 1 at all. If he gets playoff minutes it'll be from somebody else. And don't count out Kennard--Ty said he'll alternate them to see which one works with which combinations. THAT'S who Mann's competing with for minutes, at the back of the rotation not the front. And tonight was a T-Mann game, not Kennard--the last Clipper I'd want on my pickup team.


NB: I'm sort of saying something nice here about Kennard, my least favorite Clipper. Well, my second-least favorite Clipper.

________________________

ADD: Maybe Ibaka is back soon. But Ty gave Zubac 30 minutes tonight in a laugher and Cousins only 7. That suggests that we're not counting on Ibaka or at least we ARE counting on Zu.

Great game--18/10/3 plus+23, second-best to PG. Since he got back on the first unit, he's picked up where he left off in The Bubble, the best basketball of his career.

Easy to forget Zu is almost a year younger than Mann and Kennard and only 2 months older than Coffey. I don't know how high his ceiling really is, but his floor keeps rising.

Mann has played well against better competition in numerous games. And Pat Bev is semi-washed out there. So he gets applause because he was clamping down on the Toronto second string rook Malachi Flynn? Yeah I like Pat's defense overall but that's all he should be doing is coming in in short spurts to disrupt a hot shooter for the opposing team. He can't run an offense or create an assist to save his life. I like when he knocks down an occasional three but lets not overrate the guy like this. At times I think his wild glares into the camera and outburst that has people believing he's doing more than what were actually seeing from him on the basketball court. He's not a point guard. He's a lumbering power forward in a guard's body. With Mann I'm seeing tenacious defense, an improving jump shot- probably on par with Pat Bev's at this point, assists, court vision, driving towards the rim, finishing ability, leaping ability, plus Pat Bev's fire and competitiveness. I'm sure Pat Bev will still be ahead of Mann in the rotation but its not the right move imo.

Exactly. Bev is perfect for a role player/energizer role OR if our first team is clearly struggling. He should not be the first option, I see absolute no difference, but in fact regression in his game from how he looks last year and he was totally ineffective in the playoffs.

The main factor (not quite sure about Mann's jump shot still) is driving to the rim, his PLAYMAKING highly underrated, BBIQ, court vision and finishing ability. And as you said, his ferocious defense I'm sure was instilled in him by Bev.

The only issue was when we had that awful 3 guard rotation with him and Bev, Mann gets frozen out. Hopefully in these last few games Lue continues to use Mann like he did today, but given his favoritism for vets I have my doubts we'll see him in the playoffs unless the team goes down 2-1 or something. But the right move is STARTING with TMann from the beginning. Even better, there is just not enough game film of him from a starter's perspective (since Reggie took over so much this season) for teams to be able to scout till possibly the 2nd or 3rd round.



A series against the Mavs or Lakers is nowhere close to a gimme. We need to be perfect with our lineups and players.

[esqtvd]

George giving zero care about his turnover rate

True. Also a team-best plus+27. He has a cold and is playing in constant pain. He's showing up. That counts a lot with me.


There is not much to take away from this game--a pickup game vs a G-League team. Scatterass, our real players at about 3/4 speed just avoiding injury. Also bored out of their minds.

Not to burst any bubbles, but this is just the type of game T-Mann excels in--an inferior opponent and everybody else dogging it. Not really applicable to playoff basketball, where energy is the rule and bodies are flying everywhere. He hasn't passed up Reggie, let alone Bev. Bev's disruptive on-ball pressure on the other PG is among the best in the league. The great thing is that Reggie's up to full speed with the starters and if Bev gets himself into foul trouble we're covered. PLUS we have Rondo.

Mann is not a 1 at all. If he gets playoff minutes it'll be from somebody else. And don't count out Kennard--Ty said he'll alternate them to see which one works with which combinations. THAT'S who Mann's competing with for minutes, at the back of the rotation not the front. And tonight was a T-Mann game, not Kennard--the last Clipper I'd want on my pickup team.


NB: I'm sort of saying something nice here about Kennard, my least favorite Clipper. Well, my second-least favorite Clipper.

________________________

ADD: Maybe Ibaka is back soon. But Ty gave Zubac 30 minutes tonight in a laugher and Cousins only 7. That suggests that we're not counting on Ibaka or at least we ARE counting on Zu.

Great game--18/10/3 plus+23, second-best to PG. Since he got back on the first unit, he's picked up where he left off in The Bubble, the best basketball of his career.

Easy to forget Zu is almost a year younger than Mann and Kennard and only 2 months older than Coffey. I don't know how high his ceiling really is, but his floor keeps rising.

Mann has played well against better competition in numerous games. And Pat Bev is semi-washed out there. So he gets applause because he was clamping down on the Toronto second string rook Malachi Flynn? Yeah I like Pat's defense overall but that's all he should be doing is coming in in short spurts to disrupt a hot shooter for the opposing team. He can't run an offense or create an assist to save his life. I like when he knocks down an occasional three but lets not overrate the guy like this. At times I think his wild glares into the camera and outburst that has people believing he's doing more than what were actually seeing from him on the basketball court. He's not a point guard. He's a lumbering power forward in a guard's body. With Mann I'm seeing tenacious defense, an improving jump shot- probably on par with Pat Bev's at this point, assists, court vision, driving towards the rim, finishing ability, leaping ability, plus Pat Bev's fire and competitiveness. I'm sure Pat Bev will still be ahead of Mann in the rotation but its not the right move imo.

I don't like pitting one Clipper against another. Same as last year's Zu vs Trezz bullshi*it. And I don't like pitting T-Mann against Reggie either. I love T-Mann but not only is he not a PLAYOFF starter, he's probably never going to start in the NBA anywhere anytime even in the regular season.

For one thing, he has no position: He's neither a lockdown defender [Beverley] nor a knockdown shooter [Kennard]. I love the guy, but he's my panic button, not in my playoff top 8.

I don't want to dis T-Mann: I'm only posting this because Bev and Reggie are being dissed by default. If T-Mann has earned playoff minutes, it's not theirs. And with Rondo in the guard rotation now too, talking about Mann starting is a non-starter.

[MartinToVaught]

I don't like pitting one Clipper against another. Same as last year's Zu vs Trezz bullshi*it.

Edited by mod: Don't do this. Last year was last year. No more personal attacks. Next one gets a warning.

[NickP]

True. Also a team-best plus+27. He has a cold and is playing in constant pain. He's showing up. That counts a lot with me.


There is not much to take away from this game--a pickup game vs a G-League team. Scatterass, our real players at about 3/4 speed just avoiding injury. Also bored out of their minds.

Not to burst any bubbles, but this is just the type of game T-Mann excels in--an inferior opponent and everybody else dogging it. Not really applicable to playoff basketball, where energy is the rule and bodies are flying everywhere. He hasn't passed up Reggie, let alone Bev. Bev's disruptive on-ball pressure on the other PG is among the best in the league. The great thing is that Reggie's up to full speed with the starters and if Bev gets himself into foul trouble we're covered. PLUS we have Rondo.

Mann is not a 1 at all. If he gets playoff minutes it'll be from somebody else. And don't count out Kennard--Ty said he'll alternate them to see which one works with which combinations. THAT'S who Mann's competing with for minutes, at the back of the rotation not the front. And tonight was a T-Mann game, not Kennard--the last Clipper I'd want on my pickup team.


NB: I'm sort of saying something nice here about Kennard, my least favorite Clipper. Well, my second-least favorite Clipper.

________________________

ADD: Maybe Ibaka is back soon. But Ty gave Zubac 30 minutes tonight in a laugher and Cousins only 7. That suggests that we're not counting on Ibaka or at least we ARE counting on Zu.

Great game--18/10/3 plus+23, second-best to PG. Since he got back on the first unit, he's picked up where he left off in The Bubble, the best basketball of his career.

Easy to forget Zu is almost a year younger than Mann and Kennard and only 2 months older than Coffey. I don't know how high his ceiling really is, but his floor keeps rising.

Mann has played well against better competition in numerous games. And Pat Bev is semi-washed out there. So he gets applause because he was clamping down on the Toronto second string rook Malachi Flynn? Yeah I like Pat's defense overall but that's all he should be doing is coming in in short spurts to disrupt a hot shooter for the opposing team. He can't run an offense or create an assist to save his life. I like when he knocks down an occasional three but lets not overrate the guy like this. At times I think his wild glares into the camera and outburst that has people believing he's doing more than what were actually seeing from him on the basketball court. He's not a point guard. He's a lumbering power forward in a guard's body. With Mann I'm seeing tenacious defense, an improving jump shot- probably on par with Pat Bev's at this point, assists, court vision, driving towards the rim, finishing ability, leaping ability, plus Pat Bev's fire and competitiveness. I'm sure Pat Bev will still be ahead of Mann in the rotation but its not the right move imo.

I don't like pitting one Clipper against another. Same as last year's Zu vs Trezz bullshi*it. And I don't like pitting T-Mann against Reggie either. I love T-Mann but not only is he not a PLAYOFF starter, he's probably never going to start in the NBA anywhere anytime even in the regular season.

For one thing, he has no position: He's neither a lockdown defender [Beverley] nor a knockdown shooter [Kennard]. I love the guy, but he's my panic button, not in my playoff top 8.

I don't want to dis T-Mann: I'm only posting this because Bev and Reggie are being dissed by default. If T-Mann has earned playoff minutes, it's not theirs. And with Rondo in the guard rotation now too, talking about Mann starting is a non-starter.

Quite the conundrum for Lue. He really has a tough call to make as to who makes the playoffs rotation cut. I believe Mann and Luke are on the bubble. I also think Reggie will be used mainly as the off guard. There might be instances where we send in Mann based on matchups. There might come a time when we need Luke's outside shooting. These playoffs are going to be interesting to say the least. We have the talent to beat any team on a given night and while we have been losing games, it's tough to beat us 4 times. I'm optimistic this year. Wait and see.

[TrueLAfan]

I think TMann is developing into what he’s going to be-- a 3 and D SG/SF. He’s got decent wingspan, but nothing special there. Still, he’s got enough size (measured 6’6.5 in shoes; 6’7.5 wingspan) and bulk to play some at SF. I think we’re hoping he develops into a smaller, grade B+ Mikal Bridges—which would be terrific. But, yeah—he’s not a PG. And although his offense has come around (much) more than most anticipated, he’s never going to be a big scorer. If he keeps developing, what his role is likely to be is a valuable 22-25 mpg 7th-8th man. And, no, he is not there yet.

The big questions, I think, are:

• Serge. Need him back. Marcus plays too much out of position now; we're a markedly lesser defensive team. When do we get him? How long to get back into solid, 20 mpg condition?
• How short a leash Lue is going to keep PatBev? Coming back from injury, and not helping us on offense. Will he get pulled after a 5-6 minute stint if he's not productive on both ends?
• Rondo is working out very well, for the most part. Will he be able to continue that for 20-25 mpg and (hopefully) 15-20 games?
• Can Mann score enough to be a 3rd option coming off the bench for 15 mpg? If so, he'll play and he'll be a massive help; 6 points in 15 mpg, with his average to above average D and driving ability and overall tenacity. If not--more minutes for Reggie, and Luke and Mann will split 8-10 mpg.

My concerns after last night continues to be our offense standing around—it was better last night, but still not great—and our frontcourt D. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the two guys who had the most defensive impact, PG and Zu, had the highest +/-. The person that worries me about—although this may be fixed soon—is Marcus. Marcus is shooting well, but with Ibaka out, he spends more time at C. I think in a couple of years, he’ll actually be better there—he’ll bulk up a little more and bang in the post to get boards. But, right now, he’s not big enough to stay with high frontcourt players, and has slowed enough so that the quickness of the quicker frontcourt player is a problem. He faces better players there because Ibaka isn’t on the court—and I really think he’ll be helped the most by Ibaka’s (hopefully very near) return.

But we need more passing. Rondo had 4 assists in 14 minutes (although, tbh, he was bailed out by our D when he was on the court—this was not a good game for Rondo, IMO). Still, at least the offense functioned correctly with him out there. It seems like Reggie doesn’t know, or doesn’t switch, between PG mode and SG mode. And while I appreciate PatBev’s defensive disruptiveness—no points and 1 assist in 21 minutes is way below “not cutting it.” He was, literally, a 0 on offense. Another guy carried by the defense—which he’s a part of, but still. He's the PG. He's supposed to run the offense, at least to some degree.

Kawhi is the most comfortable at being an offensive leader when we don’t have a set up or true PG. PG is okay at it—very good sometimes, less good at others. (Same with Batum.) But, ultimately, we need to have some sort of setup or player designation on offense when Rondo isn’t on the court. Too much standing around wondering who’s going to pass or shoot the ball. I think both PG and Reggie kind of hesitate and wonder—“Wait—am I the facilitator now? Or is it someone else?” Kawhi doesn’t hesitate and think because he doesn’t care—which ultimately works to his advantage. Marcus has been terrifyingly/frustratingly up and down with his scoring, but I think at least some of that is a by product of this issue as well.

[Clemenza]

True. Also a team-best plus+27. He has a cold and is playing in constant pain. He's showing up. That counts a lot with me.


There is not much to take away from this game--a pickup game vs a G-League team. Scatterass, our real players at about 3/4 speed just avoiding injury. Also bored out of their minds.

Not to burst any bubbles, but this is just the type of game T-Mann excels in--an inferior opponent and everybody else dogging it. Not really applicable to playoff basketball, where energy is the rule and bodies are flying everywhere. He hasn't passed up Reggie, let alone Bev. Bev's disruptive on-ball pressure on the other PG is among the best in the league. The great thing is that Reggie's up to full speed with the starters and if Bev gets himself into foul trouble we're covered. PLUS we have Rondo.

Mann is not a 1 at all. If he gets playoff minutes it'll be from somebody else. And don't count out Kennard--Ty said he'll alternate them to see which one works with which combinations. THAT'S who Mann's competing with for minutes, at the back of the rotation not the front. And tonight was a T-Mann game, not Kennard--the last Clipper I'd want on my pickup team.


NB: I'm sort of saying something nice here about Kennard, my least favorite Clipper. Well, my second-least favorite Clipper.

________________________

ADD: Maybe Ibaka is back soon. But Ty gave Zubac 30 minutes tonight in a laugher and Cousins only 7. That suggests that we're not counting on Ibaka or at least we ARE counting on Zu.

Great game--18/10/3 plus+23, second-best to PG. Since he got back on the first unit, he's picked up where he left off in The Bubble, the best basketball of his career.

Easy to forget Zu is almost a year younger than Mann and Kennard and only 2 months older than Coffey. I don't know how high his ceiling really is, but his floor keeps rising.

Mann has played well against better competition in numerous games. And Pat Bev is semi-washed out there. So he gets applause because he was clamping down on the Toronto second string rook Malachi Flynn? Yeah I like Pat's defense overall but that's all he should be doing is coming in in short spurts to disrupt a hot shooter for the opposing team. He can't run an offense or create an assist to save his life. I like when he knocks down an occasional three but lets not overrate the guy like this. At times I think his wild glares into the camera and outburst that has people believing he's doing more than what were actually seeing from him on the basketball court. He's not a point guard. He's a lumbering power forward in a guard's body. With Mann I'm seeing tenacious defense, an improving jump shot- probably on par with Pat Bev's at this point, assists, court vision, driving towards the rim, finishing ability, leaping ability, plus Pat Bev's fire and competitiveness. I'm sure Pat Bev will still be ahead of Mann in the rotation but its not the right move imo.

I don't like pitting one Clipper against another. Same as last year's Zu vs Trezz bullshi*it. And I don't like pitting T-Mann against Reggie either. I love T-Mann but not only is he not a PLAYOFF starter, he's probably never going to start in the NBA anywhere anytime even in the regular season.

For one thing, he has no position: He's neither a lockdown defender [Beverley] nor a knockdown shooter [Kennard]. I love the guy, but he's my panic button, not in my playoff top 8.

I don't want to dis T-Mann: I'm only posting this because Bev and Reggie are being dissed by default. If T-Mann has earned playoff minutes, it's not theirs. And with Rondo in the guard rotation now too, talking about Mann starting is a non-starter.

Nobody is pitting player vs player. You're doing that. Mann sitting and recording a DNP in the loss to the Knicks as well has him playing better and harder than a couple of vets ahead of him is a legit conversation that has Clipper fans puzzled all over the net and in real life. It is what it is. You're trying to even the criticism handed out so that Mann takes some heat just because Pat Bev and Reggie takes heat. "Ok this kid is receiving a little too much love right now so let me knock him down a notch."-- seems to be what's going on here. I'm actually a Reggie supporter and I root for Pat Bev to play well but I'm also frustrated at his constant injuries and when he's finally healthy he's instantly thrown back in as a starter and then he struggles to run basic plays for the offense and set up teammates. I personally try to be fair and square as much as possible around here. No unmitigated hate is being thrown around by me at all

[madmaxmedia]

Quite the conundrum for Lue. He really has a tough call to make as to who makes the playoffs rotation cut. I believe Mann and Luke are on the bubble. I also think Reggie will be used mainly as the off guard. There might be instances where we send in Mann based on matchups. There might come a time when we need Luke's outside shooting. These playoffs are going to be interesting to say the least. We have the talent to beat any team on a given night and while we have been losing games, it's tough to beat us 4 times. I'm optimistic this year. Wait and see.

By no means are we favorites (even in just the West), but I am more optimistic heading into the playoffs this year than last. Even if we don't have a clearly set playoff rotation, we do have different guys with different strengths depending on what is needed. You want to have rotations with continuity, but situationally we might need energy or we might need shooting in that 5th guy out there. Considering how little in assets we had going into last offseason after a 2nd round playoff collapse, I think our roster this year has worked out pretty well.

I think Lue generally has confidence in each of our guys in terms of what they can do well, and also knows what they don't do well. PT has been more variable this year, but I think it has been for a reason and it's given Lue a better perspective of all our guys going into the playoffs. I also think each of our guys knows they need to be ready at any moment to go in and produce regardless of MPG.

[TrueLAfan]

Quite the conundrum for Lue. He really has a tough call to make as to who makes the playoffs rotation cut. I believe Mann and Luke are on the bubble. I also think Reggie will be used mainly as the off guard. There might be instances where we send in Mann based on matchups. There might come a time when we need Luke's outside shooting. These playoffs are going to be interesting to say the least. We have the talent to beat any team on a given night and while we have been losing games, it's tough to beat us 4 times. I'm optimistic this year. Wait and see.

By no means are we favorites (even in just the West), but I am more optimistic heading into the playoffs this year than last. Even if we don't have a clearly set playoff rotation, we do have different guys with different strengths depending on what is needed. You want to have rotations with continuity, but situationally we might need energy or we might need shooting in that 5th guy out there. Considering how little in assets we had going into last offseason after a 2nd round playoff collapse, I think our roster this year has worked out pretty well.

I think Lue generally has confidence in each of our guys in terms of what they can do well, and also knows what they don't do well. PT has been more variable this year, but I think it has been for a reason and it's given Lue a better perspective of all our guys going into the playoffs. I also think each of our guys knows they need to be ready at any moment to go in and produce regardless of MPG.

This. I'll add that I attribute it to three things:

1. Familiarity/Structure. We’re more used to each other now. I also think we’re somewhat better organized and coached.
2. Ibaka over Trezz. Trezz had/has better raw numbers, but his defensive issues showed less in the box score and affected us more on the court. Ibaka is a much better defender with much more range. I’ll give up the points for that.
3. Major upgrade at SG and PG depth. This is a comparison of our backcourt players and totals, last year vs. this year.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L603gwr-EH3zwVXFrDAEQ8GpGLwSc6IL/view?usp=sharing

We defend much better now. We foul less and turn the ball over less. We score and rebound a hair less—but it’s 8 minutes fewer per game, so we produce better in on court time.

[RingColluder]

Mann has played well against better competition in numerous games. And Pat Bev is semi-washed out there. So he gets applause because he was clamping down on the Toronto second string rook Malachi Flynn? Yeah I like Pat's defense overall but that's all he should be doing is coming in in short spurts to disrupt a hot shooter for the opposing team. He can't run an offense or create an assist to save his life. I like when he knocks down an occasional three but lets not overrate the guy like this. At times I think his wild glares into the camera and outburst that has people believing he's doing more than what were actually seeing from him on the basketball court. He's not a point guard. He's a lumbering power forward in a guard's body. With Mann I'm seeing tenacious defense, an improving jump shot- probably on par with Pat Bev's at this point, assists, court vision, driving towards the rim, finishing ability, leaping ability, plus Pat Bev's fire and competitiveness. I'm sure Pat Bev will still be ahead of Mann in the rotation but its not the right move imo.

I don't like pitting one Clipper against another. Same as last year's Zu vs Trezz bullshi*it. And I don't like pitting T-Mann against Reggie either. I love T-Mann but not only is he not a PLAYOFF starter, he's probably never going to start in the NBA anywhere anytime even in the regular season.

For one thing, he has no position: He's neither a lockdown defender [Beverley] nor a knockdown shooter [Kennard]. I love the guy, but he's my panic button, not in my playoff top 8.

I don't want to dis T-Mann: I'm only posting this because Bev and Reggie are being dissed by default. If T-Mann has earned playoff minutes, it's not theirs. And with Rondo in the guard rotation now too, talking about Mann starting is a non-starter.

Nobody is pitting player vs player. You're doing that. Mann sitting and recording a DNP in the loss to the Knicks as well has him playing better and harder than a couple of vets ahead of him is a legit conversation that has Clipper fans puzzled all over the net and in real life. It is what it is. You're trying to even the criticism handed out so that Mann takes some heat just because Pat Bev and Reggie takes heat. "Ok this kid is receiving a little too much love right now so let me knock him down a notch."-- seems to be what's going on here. I'm actually a Reggie supporter and I root for Pat Bev to play well but I'm also frustrated at his constant injuries and when he's finally healthy he's instantly thrown back in as a starter and then he struggles to run basic plays for the offense and set up teammates. I personally try to be fair and square as much as possible around here. No unmitigated hate is being thrown around by me at all

Yup. I generally like esq's ways but he's the one trying to downplay Mann's remarkable achievements for reasons unknown. Relying on an injured Bev and inconsistent Reggie? If we don't play TMann double digit minutes a game we aren't going to win a series. Period.

Bev is just not a playmaker or difference maker offensively he is a ROLE PLAYER. TMann has already shown that he can do things on both sides of the ball (and arguably w Bev's injury play more consistent defense) than Bev. And obviously Reggie is sometimes good but almost never defensively.

[RingColluder]

Quite the conundrum for Lue. He really has a tough call to make as to who makes the playoffs rotation cut. I believe Mann and Luke are on the bubble. I also think Reggie will be used mainly as the off guard. There might be instances where we send in Mann based on matchups. There might come a time when we need Luke's outside shooting. These playoffs are going to be interesting to say the least. We have the talent to beat any team on a given night and while we have been losing games, it's tough to beat us 4 times. I'm optimistic this year. Wait and see.

By no means are we favorites (even in just the West), but I am more optimistic heading into the playoffs this year than last. Even if we don't have a clearly set playoff rotation, we do have different guys with different strengths depending on what is needed. You want to have rotations with continuity, but situationally we might need energy or we might need shooting in that 5th guy out there. Considering how little in assets we had going into last offseason after a 2nd round playoff collapse, I think our roster this year has worked out pretty well.

I think Lue generally has confidence in each of our guys in terms of what they can do well, and also knows what they don't do well. PT has been more variable this year, but I think it has been for a reason and it's given Lue a better perspective of all our guys going into the playoffs. I also think each of our guys knows they need to be ready at any moment to go in and produce regardless of MPG.

This. I'll add that I attribute it to three things:

1. Familiarity/Structure. We’re more used to each other now. I also think we’re somewhat better organized and coached.
2. Ibaka over Trezz. Trezz had/has better raw numbers, but his defensive issues showed less in the box score and affected us more on the court. Ibaka is a much better defender with much more range. I’ll give up the points for that.
3. Major upgrade at SG and PG depth. This is a comparison of our backcourt players and totals, last year vs. this year.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L603gwr-EH3zwVXFrDAEQ8GpGLwSc6IL/view?usp=sharing

We defend much better now. We foul less and turn the ball over less. We score and rebound a hair less—but it’s 8 minutes fewer per game, so we produce better in on court time.

1. Are we? I'm still seeing plenty of times during games where the team looks like they've never played together. With Ibaka coming back (if he even does) it'll once again be trying to feel each other out in round 1.


I'm very concerned heading into the playoffs particularly with PG who is looking even worse than he did last year at this time. The turnovers in particular are an absolute abomination. Relying on Ibaka who hasn't played in months?? That's not something we can rely on and I think will be severely disappointed by. He needs to at least play a game in the RS before can jump to conclusions, we've seen how Bev looks so far..

Rondo is def. an upgrade but if we don't play TMann it's all for naught.

[playaloc916]

Quite the conundrum for Lue. He really has a tough call to make as to who makes the playoffs rotation cut. I believe Mann and Luke are on the bubble. I also think Reggie will be used mainly as the off guard. There might be instances where we send in Mann based on matchups. There might come a time when we need Luke's outside shooting. These playoffs are going to be interesting to say the least. We have the talent to beat any team on a given night and while we have been losing games, it's tough to beat us 4 times. I'm optimistic this year. Wait and see.

By no means are we favorites (even in just the West), but I am more optimistic heading into the playoffs this year than last. Even if we don't have a clearly set playoff rotation, we do have different guys with different strengths depending on what is needed. You want to have rotations with continuity, but situationally we might need energy or we might need shooting in that 5th guy out there. Considering how little in assets we had going into last offseason after a 2nd round playoff collapse, I think our roster this year has worked out pretty well.

I think Lue generally has confidence in each of our guys in terms of what they can do well, and also knows what they don't do well. PT has been more variable this year, but I think it has been for a reason and it's given Lue a better perspective of all our guys going into the playoffs. I also think each of our guys knows they need to be ready at any moment to go in and produce regardless of MPG.

The way this team is constructed, particularly the guard rotation, is going to require a lot of strategy based on matchups. As pointed out, each guard has strengths AND weaknesses, so rolling out the same starting lineup/bench unit against every team is not going to work. The front court is much more simple. We need Ibaka back in a bad way... Once he comes back, everything falls into place.

Rondo - should start and get as many minutes as he can handle, I don't see any glaring weaknesses.

Reginald - should get decent minutes, but I think he's starting to cool off. If him and PG are on the floor at the same time, Reggie should take on more playmaking instead of passing it to PG and letting him try to create by himself.

Pat Bev - needs to start if opposing team has a dynamic scoring guard; if he fails to slow that guard down, need to reduce his minutes. Other than defense and the occasional open 3, he just contributes too little. I feel like he's a player that doesn't hurt you, but doesn't necessarily help you either.

Mann - he's a jack of all arts, master of none, but he is like a shot in the arm that can wake the team up and get them going. His driving and finishing is much improved this year, and other teams probably haven't seriously scouted him yet. I can't automatically give him minutes over Reggie, but if Reggie isn't working out, I'd put him on the floor.

Kennard - should get minutes if opposing team doesn't have great defensive guards. The team really needs to utilize his 3pt shooting. Such a waste seeing him get garbage minutes on that contract of his.

Ferrell/Coffey - garbage minutes/injury insurance

[NickP]

Quite the conundrum for Lue. He really has a tough call to make as to who makes the playoffs rotation cut. I believe Mann and Luke are on the bubble. I also think Reggie will be used mainly as the off guard. There might be instances where we send in Mann based on matchups. There might come a time when we need Luke's outside shooting. These playoffs are going to be interesting to say the least. We have the talent to beat any team on a given night and while we have been losing games, it's tough to beat us 4 times. I'm optimistic this year. Wait and see.

By no means are we favorites (even in just the West), but I am more optimistic heading into the playoffs this year than last. Even if we don't have a clearly set playoff rotation, we do have different guys with different strengths depending on what is needed. You want to have rotations with continuity, but situationally we might need energy or we might need shooting in that 5th guy out there. Considering how little in assets we had going into last offseason after a 2nd round playoff collapse, I think our roster this year has worked out pretty well.

I think Lue generally has confidence in each of our guys in terms of what they can do well, and also knows what they don't do well. PT has been more variable this year, but I think it has been for a reason and it's given Lue a better perspective of all our guys going into the playoffs. I also think each of our guys knows they need to be ready at any moment to go in and produce regardless of MPG.

The way this team is constructed, particularly the guard rotation, is going to require a lot of strategy based on matchups. As pointed out, each guard has strengths AND weaknesses, so rolling out the same starting lineup/bench unit against every team is not going to work. The front court is much more simple. We need Ibaka back in a bad way... Once he comes back, everything falls into place.

Rondo - should start and get as many minutes as he can handle, I don't see any glaring weaknesses.

Reginald - should get decent minutes, but I think he's starting to cool off. If him and PG are on the floor at the same time, Reggie should take on more playmaking instead of passing it to PG and letting him try to create by himself.

Pat Bev - needs to start if opposing team has a dynamic scoring guard; if he fails to slow that guard down, need to reduce his minutes. Other than defense and the occasional open 3, he just contributes too little. I feel like he's a player that doesn't hurt you, but doesn't necessarily help you either.

Mann - he's a jack of all arts, master of none, but he is like a shot in the arm that can wake the team up and get them going. His driving and finishing is much improved this year, and other teams probably haven't seriously scouted him yet. I can't automatically give him minutes over Reggie, but if Reggie isn't working out, I'd put him on the floor.

Kennard - should get minutes if opposing team doesn't have great defensive guards. The team really needs to utilize his 3pt shooting. Such a waste seeing him get garbage minutes on that contract of his.

Ferrell/Coffey - garbage minutes/injury insurance

Agree with your analysis.

[RingColluder]

The glaring elephant in the room is that Paul George needs to have the ball less. Give the ball to TMann instead if Rondo can't get the minutes and we'll be fine. Hell I'd rather have Nicholas Batum run the 2nd team at this rate. Absolutely no chance we win a series with his constant 4 TO's 4 assists every game especially if he rebounds so poorly like yesterday (which I will let slide since he's normally decent at it).

[Kelphus]

Great discussion all. THIS is why I enjoy the Board. Thank you.

[esqtvd]

The glaring elephant in the room is that Paul George needs to have the ball less. Give the ball to TMann instead if Rondo can't get the minutes and we'll be fine. Hell I'd rather have Nicholas Batum run the 2nd team at this rate. Absolutely no chance we win a series with his constant 4 TO's 4 assists every game especially if he rebounds so poorly like yesterday (which I will let slide since he's normally decent at it).

The turnovers remain a concern but the Lakers were 9th worst in turnovers last year and still won the title. The Clippers are 8th BEST this year. PG has the ball because our 3rd leading scorer averages only 13 ppg and we need points from SOMEWHERE. We have 3 starters who can't originate their own offense.

According to Greif,
https://www.latimes.com/sports/clippers/story/2021-05-11/clippers-hopeful-serge-ibaka-will-return-injury

---Bev will start because Ty doesn't like Bev and Rondo together.

---Zu has won the starting job.

---Mann is competing for minutes at the 9th man slot--if there is a 9th slot.

Lue reiterated that holding on to the Western Conference’s third seed is his goal, and the Clippers remain one game ahead of fourth-place Denver after both teams won Tuesday. Another goal is getting the team’s veterans comfortable on the court again, as they have not played together since mid-March. Doing that when Ibaka returns, however, won’t mean dislodging Ivica Zubac from the starting center role he largely has flourished in since Ibaka’s injury.

“Zu will be the starter, for sure, but … with Serge’s experience and how he’s performed in the playoffs and winning the championship, I think it means a lot,” Lue said. “The more guys you have with that experience and more guys that you have that rise to the occasion in the playoffs, which Serge has done over his career, it’s very important to have.”

...


The Clippers led by double digits for all but two minutes of the second half and made all 26 of their free throws, but they courted unnecessary trouble with flashy passes that contributed to 18 turnovers.

Paul George had six of them.

Taking care of the ball came down to “just having some humility,” Lue said.

“Some of the flashy passes and stuff, you can’t do that. You know, we gotta be more professional. Like I said, until we do that, we’re going to have 18, 19 turnovers and things like this happen.”

[esqtvd]

I don't want to dis T-Mann: I'm only posting this because Bev and Reggie are being dissed by default. If T-Mann has earned playoff minutes, it's not theirs. And with Rondo in the guard rotation now too, talking about Mann starting is a non-starter.

Nobody is pitting player vs player. You're doing that. Mann sitting and recording a DNP in the loss to the Knicks as well has him playing better and harder than a couple of vets ahead of him is a legit conversation that has Clipper fans puzzled all over the net and in real life. It is what it is. You're trying to even the criticism handed out so that Mann takes some heat just because Pat Bev and Reggie takes heat. [b]"Ok this kid is receiving a little too much love right now so let me knock him down a notch."-- seems to be what's going on here. I'm actually a Reggie supporter and I root for Pat Bev to play well but I'm also frustrated at his constant injuries and when he's finally healthy he's instantly thrown back in as a starter and then he struggles to run basic plays for the offense and set up teammates. I personally try to be fair and square as much as possible around here. No unmitigated hate is being thrown around by me at all

Yup. I generally like esq's ways but he's the one trying to downplay Mann's remarkable achievements for reasons unknown. Relying on an injured Bev and inconsistent Reggie? If we don't play TMann double digit minutes a game we aren't going to win a series. Period.

Bev is just not a playmaker or difference maker offensively he is a ROLE PLAYER. TMann has already shown that he can do things on both sides of the ball (and arguably w Bev's injury play more consistent defense) than Bev. And obviously Reggie is sometimes good but almost never defensively.

But coach agrees with me. Because of his energetic play, T-Mann does well in the "eye test" and even in percentages--but the scoresheet also says he leaks points. 2nd from the bottom over the last 10 games, and barely over zero for the full season on a team that averages plus+6.3 [2nd best in the NBA].

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612746&LastNGames=10

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612746

I don't down him, but he's not one of our top 8 players if Bev makes it back. If Bev doesn't, Mann is probably the panic button. But except for the open corner 3, he's not a threat outside the paint and so he hurts our spacing. Opponents will gameplan this if he ever does make the rotation. Right now he's slipping through the cracks.

Reggie is the far more effective player by almost any metric, and of course so is Rondo. Who else's minutes do you want to hand to Mann?

[Scoundreldays]

How come Rondo does not start with the starting unit? Is it to stagger his minutes so he plays with both units?

[RingColluder]

The glaring elephant in the room is that Paul George needs to have the ball less. Give the ball to TMann instead if Rondo can't get the minutes and we'll be fine. Hell I'd rather have Nicholas Batum run the 2nd team at this rate. Absolutely no chance we win a series with his constant 4 TO's 4 assists every game especially if he rebounds so poorly like yesterday (which I will let slide since he's normally decent at it).

The turnovers remain a concern but the Lakers were 9th worst in turnovers last year and still won the title. The Clippers are 8th BEST this year. PG has the ball because our 3rd leading scorer averages only 13 ppg and we need points from SOMEWHERE. We have 3 starters who can't originate their own offense.

According to Greif,
https://www.latimes.com/sports/clippers/story/2021-05-11/clippers-hopeful-serge-ibaka-will-return-injury

---Bev will start because Ty doesn't like Bev and Rondo together.

---Zu has won the starting job.

---Mann is competing for minutes at the 9th man slot--if there is a 9th slot.

Lue reiterated that holding on to the Western Conference’s third seed is his goal, and the Clippers remain one game ahead of fourth-place Denver after both teams won Tuesday. Another goal is getting the team’s veterans comfortable on the court again, as they have not played together since mid-March. Doing that when Ibaka returns, however, won’t mean dislodging Ivica Zubac from the starting center role he largely has flourished in since Ibaka’s injury.

“Zu will be the starter, for sure, but … with Serge’s experience and how he’s performed in the playoffs and winning the championship, I think it means a lot,” Lue said. “The more guys you have with that experience and more guys that you have that rise to the occasion in the playoffs, which Serge has done over his career, it’s very important to have.”

...


The Clippers led by double digits for all but two minutes of the second half and made all 26 of their free throws, but they courted unnecessary trouble with flashy passes that contributed to 18 turnovers.

Paul George had six of them.

Taking care of the ball came down to “just having some humility,” Lue said.

“Some of the flashy passes and stuff, you can’t do that. You know, we gotta be more professional. Like I said, until we do that, we’re going to have 18, 19 turnovers and things like this happen.”

You realize how much better this team would be if we gave 3-5 of the low IQ shots PG takes every time to Morris? Look at his %'s and the TPYE of shots he takes. It would probably even help PG with his supposed playmaking then. This is like complaining on the Big 3 or the Cavs teams how much Chris Bosh's and Kevin Love's scoring stats suffered, bc they had to sacrifice. But sadly PG is not even close to the level of a Big 3 #2 like Wade or Irving is, so the distribution in shots between him and Morris should be closer to 60-40 rather than 80-20 (and that's being generous).

And how many assists were the Lakers getting last year despite being 9th worst in turnovers? The issue isn't the turnovers per say, it's that he's basically averaging the same amount of TO's to Assists. It's one thing to have only 4 assists a game, it's an absolute disaster if he is also averaging 4 turnovers a game as well.

[RingColluder]

Nobody is pitting player vs player. You're doing that. Mann sitting and recording a DNP in the loss to the Knicks as well has him playing better and harder than a couple of vets ahead of him is a legit conversation that has Clipper fans puzzled all over the net and in real life. It is what it is. You're trying to even the criticism handed out so that Mann takes some heat just because Pat Bev and Reggie takes heat. "Ok this kid is receiving a little too much love right now so let me knock him down a notch."-- seems to be what's going on here. I'm actually a Reggie supporter and I root for Pat Bev to play well but I'm also frustrated at his constant injuries and when he's finally healthy he's instantly thrown back in as a starter and then he struggles to run basic plays for the offense and set up teammates. I personally try to be fair and square as much as possible around here. No unmitigated hate is being thrown around by me at all

Yup. I generally like esq's ways but he's the one trying to downplay Mann's remarkable achievements for reasons unknown. Relying on an injured Bev and inconsistent Reggie? If we don't play TMann double digit minutes a game we aren't going to win a series. Period.

Bev is just not a playmaker or difference maker offensively he is a ROLE PLAYER. TMann has already shown that he can do things on both sides of the ball (and arguably w Bev's injury play more consistent defense) than Bev. And obviously Reggie is sometimes good but almost never defensively.

But coach agrees with me. Because of his energetic play, T-Mann does well in the "eye test" and even in percentages--but the scoresheet also says he leaks points. 2nd from the bottom over the last 10 games, and barely over zero for the full season on a team that averages plus+6.3 [2nd best in the NBA].

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612746&LastNGames=10

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612746

I don't down him, but he's not one of our top 8 players if Bev makes it back. If Bev doesn't, Mann is probably the panic button. But except for the open corner 3, he's not a threat outside the paint and so he hurts our spacing. Opponents will gameplan this if he ever does make the rotation. Right now he's slipping through the cracks.

Reggie is the far more effective player by almost any metric, and of course so is Rondo. Who else's minutes do you want to hand to Mann?

I wouldn't say Ty Lue agreeing with you on this is necessarily a good thing.

I hate plus minus as a stat because Mann obviously is getting put into worse situations and lineups than the main guards obviously. You want to talk about leaking points, that's Reggie Jackson 100%. Just bc he plays more minutes w Kawhi and Morris and has a better +/- doesn't mean he's a better defender than Mann. Come on.

If I play with the 1990's Bull's every game but Ja Morant plays with the Grizzlies, just bc my plus minus is better doesn't make me the better player. A simplification but my idea still stands.

And I disagree. He absolutely IS one of our top 8 players if not even BETTER. Bev is hurt and old, he is just not the same guy anymore. Maybe in short spurts but he cannot be relied on to play heavy minutes, Mann delivers every second he is out there. I wouldn't say Bev is Mr. reliable either from 3 per say, not to mention Mann is a FAR BETTER driver to the paint and finisher than Bev and for my money right now the better energy guy who does way more little things than Bev can.

Rondo is fantastic, but Reggie is Mr. Inconsistent offensively (like Playoff P) and worst of all he is consistency a below average defender. We don't need that in the playoffs, we have PLENTY of offensive weapons available. If our offense sputters, then yes put Reggie in, but him and Bev should be used as WEAPONS not main options. TMann is a force of nature who makes everyone look better similar to a Batum (kinda) but with a much higher motor prepared for a tough grinding playoff series.

If I had to rank a top 8 since you mentioned it the pecking order is this:

Kawhi
--
--
--
Morris
Paul George
--
Rondo
Terrence Mann
---
Zu
Ibaka (assuming he's back fully, doubt it)
--
Batum
Reggie/Bev


Terrence Mann is the missing piece to this team. When we start to look flat, tired and disoriented in the early games it'll be bc TMann is not playing (if that happens).