Game #54 Clippers @ BULLS Tuesday 1/31 5PM

[wakelaunch1]

Just noticed , No Morris tonight

Its a good thing. Morris is redundant and worse then anything else we have. Need to trade Morris/ Jackson/ Kennard for another starting center and point guard.

[MartinToVaught]

That was one hell of a carry job by Kawhi and Norm with Luke/Batum/Reggie/Mann all being way off at the same time. Good win.

[donemilio21]

How on earth did we win this? Mann, Reggie, Batum and Kennard combined 4-31 from the floor, insane.

[ejftw]

That was one we should not have won, oh momma.

[Bobbymcgee]

What the heck happened to Mann? Seemed like he was finally coming along and now he is back to putting up mediocre numbers again.

[nickhx2]

progress is hardly ever linear, so i wouldn't be worried

besides, i think if you're looking at his numbers to figure out if he's having a "good" game, you're gonna miss his impact on the overall architecture of the team.

- adding more defense to any lineups with both paul george and kawhi create an additive effect on the overall team's defense
- not taking bad/extra shots gives more shots to the two guys whom you want taking more shots
- being more of a pseudo-point guard means kawhi touches the ball on more possessions
- taking pressure off of reggie to be the "starter" means he won't be in his own head about trying to be a top scorer that is helping kawhi/pg every night. and having extra rest via less time on the court means he can excel in his best exact role.

there's certainly more but yeah, no big deal if he's not lighting up the box score. unless you're into fantasy basketball, i suppose.

[esqtvd]

What the heck happened to Mann? Seemed like he was finally coming along and now he is back to putting up mediocre numbers again.

Reggie may be a below-average NBA starting point guard but this is not even on the same planet.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?LastNGames=7&PerMode=Per100Possessions&TeamID=1610612746&dir=A&sort=PLUS_MINUS

[esqtvd]

How on earth did we win this? Mann, Reggie, Batum and Kennard combined 4-31 from the floor, insane.

15 steals, 6 blocks, only 8 TOs


https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/gameId/401468921

[esqtvd]

progress is hardly ever linear, so i wouldn't be worried

besides, i think if you're looking at his numbers to figure out if he's having a "good" game, you're gonna miss his impact on the overall architecture of the team.

- adding more defense to any lineups with both paul george and kawhi create an additive effect on the overall team's defense
- not taking bad/extra shots gives more shots to the two guys whom you want taking more shots
- being more of a pseudo-point guard means kawhi touches the ball on more possessions
- taking pressure off of reggie to be the "starter" means he won't be in his own head about trying to be a top scorer that is helping kawhi/pg every night. and having extra rest via less time on the court means he can excel in his best exact role.

there's certainly more but yeah, no big deal if he's not lighting up the box score. unless you're into fantasy basketball, i suppose.

In theory, all true.

Unfortunately, Reggie [plus+13] still had to play 27 minutes. He should play around 20. The TMann-as-starting-point guard experiment is not working.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?LastNGames=7&PerMode=Per100Possessions&TeamID=1610612746&dir=A&sort=PLUS_MINUS

Ty is going to have to give J-Wall another shot now and maybe the timing is perfect. I don't want him starting--I think T-Mann should remain the placeholder starter for the reasons you give. And maybe Wall has learned his lesson, how to play winning basketball with diminished skills at age 32. Reggie has.

Come to think of it, neither Reggie nor Wall played winning basketball in their prime. But Reggie has made $120 million in his NBA career and Wall has made over $200 million.


I'm starting to go all Wammy Giveaway with this riff so I'll leave off here. But you see where I'm going with this. Barring a trade, Ty is going to REALLY have to get creative. Mann plays right but doesn't produce. Wall produces but doesn't play right. Reggie is the Goldilocks thing but like all combo guards doesn't satisfy anybody.

[NickP]

Mann has been entrusted with the starting PG job recently and he still has ways to go while Reggie has been in the league for a very long time.
Mann brings a lot of intangibles that simple plus minus doesn't show.
Mann is a much better defender and whenever Mann is on the floor, the ball moves nicely.
If I was Lue and have to select between Reggie and Wall, I'd choose Reggie.
This is no mystery and no point creating suspenseful scenarios and drama.

[clipperlover]

Clippers 13-6 when John Wall doesn't play including 7-3 in the last 10. 15-19 when he does play. and 10-15 when he plays more than 20 MPG. We are 7-3 when he has a positive +/-, so he can be helpful in the right situations.

I was hoping the guy could at least help us defensively, but having him on the court takes minutes away from others.

[PeteyPablo]

I just bought a Terance Mann autographed rookie card. I hope he gets more playing time and can highlight his value to the team and to my rookie card.

[madmaxmedia]

Regardless of how our roster should be played now, it seems clear that if we want a real title-contending roster we need 2 trades this deadline or in the offseason- a true point guard and an athletic big. If that big is more of a PF, then we should pick up a free agent backup center.

I love our guys, but this is a 2nd/maybe 3rd round roster as is assuming good health.

[madmaxmedia]

Mann has been entrusted with the starting PG job recently and he still has ways to go while Reggie has been in the league for a very long time.
Mann brings a lot of intangibles that simple plus minus doesn't show.
Mann is a much better defender and whenever Mann is on the floor, the ball moves nicely.
If I was Lue and have to select between Reggie and Wall, I'd choose Reggie.
This is no mystery and no point creating suspenseful scenarios and drama.

Plus minus is not perfect, but plus minus should actually be the thing that shows what simple statistics don't show.

I am still 100% onboard on the Mann 30 MPG train, but I think his inconsistent scoring hurts his overall floor impact. We let that go somewhat because we love how he plays and brings energy. In the end Mann/Jackson/Wall are all stopgap solutions if we really aspire to win a title.

Barring a trade, Ty is going to REALLY have to get creative. Mann plays right but doesn't produce. Wall produces but doesn't play right. Reggie is the Goldilocks thing but like all combo guards doesn't satisfy anybody.

If Mann scored say 15 PPG on starter's minutes, I think that would tilt the advanced stats in his favor. But TBH he is playing right in terms of his offensive capabilities (~50% FG)- he is a pretty good at catch and shoot but doesn't have a quick release, he can attack the basket when there's a seam in the defense but is not quick/dynamic enough to break down a defense by himself.

[madmaxmedia]

double post

[NickP]

Mann has been entrusted with the starting PG job recently and he still has ways to go while Reggie has been in the league for a very long time.
Mann brings a lot of intangibles that simple plus minus doesn't show.
Mann is a much better defender and whenever Mann is on the floor, the ball moves nicely.
If I was Lue and have to select between Reggie and Wall, I'd choose Reggie.
This is no mystery and no point creating suspenseful scenarios and drama.

Plus minus is not perfect, but plus minus should actually be the thing that shows what simple statistics don't show.

I am still 100% onboard on the Mann 30 MPG train, but I think his inconsistent scoring hurts his overall floor impact. We let that go somewhat because we love how he plays and brings energy. In the end Mann/Jackson/Wall are all stopgap solutions if we really aspire to win a title.

Barring a trade, Ty is going to REALLY have to get creative. Mann plays right but doesn't produce. Wall produces but doesn't play right. Reggie is the Goldilocks thing but like all combo guards doesn't satisfy anybody.

If Mann scored say 15 PPG on starter's minutes, I think that would tilt the advanced stats in his favor. But TBH he is playing right in terms of his offensive capabilities (~50% FG)- he is a pretty good at catch and shoot but doesn't have a quick release, he can attack the basket when there's a seam in the defense but is not quick/dynamic enough to break down a defense by himself.

I can get behind this argument when Mann head a solid season at starting PG behind him. Until then he's a project. Projects take time.

[esqtvd]

Plus minus is not perfect, but plus minus should actually be the thing that shows what simple statistics don't show.

I am still 100% onboard on the Mann 30 MPG train, but I think his inconsistent scoring hurts his overall floor impact. We let that go somewhat because we love how he plays and brings energy. In the end Mann/Jackson/Wall are all stopgap solutions if we really aspire to win a title.

Barring a trade, Ty is going to REALLY have to get creative. Mann plays right but doesn't produce. Wall produces but doesn't play right. Reggie is the Goldilocks thing but like all combo guards doesn't satisfy anybody.

If Mann scored say 15 PPG on starter's minutes, I think that would tilt the advanced stats in his favor. But TBH he is playing right in terms of his offensive capabilities (~50% FG)- he is a pretty good at catch and shoot but doesn't have a quick release, he can attack the basket when there's a seam in the defense but is not quick/dynamic enough to break down a defense by himself.

10-and-4 would be fine. Last night it was 2-and-1.

[nickhx2]

Regardless of how our roster should be played now, it seems clear that if we want a real title-contending roster we need 2 trades this deadline or in the offseason- a true point guard and an athletic big. If that big is more of a PF, then we should pick up a free agent backup center.

I love our guys, but this is a 2nd/maybe 3rd round roster as is assuming good health.

the yucky thing is i think we can pretty much only have one or the other based off of our limited resources, at least for this season. i mean i think we can still contend if all our guys stay healthy, we move morris so that our roster balances more, and we get either that PG or backup big, but we're still in pretty good shape if we just get the one.

a backup big probably will be more likely because i don't see the team wanting to move on from reggie, or that he's very desirable from other teams. if we grabbed a point guard (ideally we package wall/morris/whomever), we'd still have some silly roster imbalances because how are you supposed to juggle 3 small guards in powell/reggie/new PG guy? they've pretty much tried the micro ball lineups all season to terrible effect so i have a hard time seeing them go in a direction where we'd need to play small all the time.

thinking out loud, maybe i'm wrong, though, since powell's not a sieve at the 2, and he's developing a bit of chemistry with reggie in their backup duo role. so say we, idk, picked up conley for morris/wall/blah blah. conley would start (ideally with kennard), pushing mann to the bench where he can play as the clear cut backup 3, and batum/covington/mann/powell/reggie seems like a fair lineup. guess it all depends on what we do with mann, if we did acquire that new pg.

[madmaxmedia]

Regardless of how our roster should be played now, it seems clear that if we want a real title-contending roster we need 2 trades this deadline or in the offseason- a true point guard and an athletic big. If that big is more of a PF, then we should pick up a free agent backup center.

I love our guys, but this is a 2nd/maybe 3rd round roster as is assuming good health.

the yucky thing is i think we can pretty much only have one or the other based off of our limited resources, at least for this season. i mean i think we can still contend if all our guys stay healthy, we move morris so that our roster balances more, and we get either that PG or backup big, but we're still in pretty good shape if we just get the one.

a backup big probably will be more likely because i don't see the team wanting to move on from reggie, or that he's very desirable from other teams. if we grabbed a point guard (ideally we package wall/morris/whomever), we'd still have some silly roster imbalances because how are you supposed to juggle 3 small guards in powell/reggie/new PG guy? they've pretty much tried the micro ball lineups all season to terrible effect so i have a hard time seeing them go in a direction where we'd need to play small all the time.

thinking out loud, maybe i'm wrong, though, since powell's not a sieve at the 2, and he's developing a bit of chemistry with reggie in their backup duo role. so say we, idk, picked up conley for morris/wall/blah blah. conley would start (ideally with kennard), pushing mann to the bench where he can play as the clear cut backup 3, and batum/covington/mann/powell/reggie seems like a fair lineup. guess it all depends on what we do with mann, if we did acquire that new pg.

There's potentially a lot of moving pieces at play, which IMO is why the FO hasn't signed an available backup C or maybe made a quick trade for someone like Hart. They have to consider what trade pieces might be used in different potential trades, and how a combination of trades together would impact our roster. I could see one of those trades being a 3-way, for example we get Conley but a third team gets Morris and sends expiring money to Utah.

I think if our FO could land a younger front court player, they might combo it with a trade for a vet point guard who wouldn't cost much back. I also imagine that Terance might go out if we made a couple of deals at once. But it's also possible we line up one trade but can't finish the other, so for roster balance have pull out of everything.

Supposedly the price for John Collins is dropping, I imagine our FO is really monitoring that situation-

Sources tell Sam Amick of The Athletic that they've dropped their mandate for a first round pick and are instead focused on landing a quality player, or players, in return for Collins.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/270217/Hawks-Significantly-Decrease-Asking-Price-In-John-Collins-Trade

[esqtvd]

How can Mann have a negative p/m when he plays most of his minutes with these guys?

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