2017 Offseason Thread

[QRich3]

Good point, I forgot to factor that in. Luckily, we havent used any cash for trades this past season (unless I am forgetting one during the summer some how). The cap for this season (2016 - 2017) is $3.5 million, so still good news.

Oh, I thought it was gonna be less than that, I'd call every team at the end of the 1st round and offer the full thing + maybe a future 2nd. But yeah, we need to first build a good environment for these guys to develop properly, or it's a waste of money.

Anybody interested in signing PJ Tucker?

He's gonna be out of our price range unless Chris and Blake leave, in which case there's no point in bringing him in.

[Don Tommy]

Trading Blake for George is pretty much impossible but what about DJ for PG13? I have heard all the Lakers talk as well but I thought I remember hearing that when he grew up in Lancaster that he was a Clippers fan growing up?

What do you guys think about JJ? Heard on the radio today that Minnesota might make a run at him and move LaVine to the bench or possibly trade bait. I don't know if he could play defense the Thibs way, but looking at the numbers not many of the Wolves could.

[Ranma]

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At least other coaches have the common sense to step down from their role as President of Basketball Operations. In such a role, Doc has been single-handedly responsible for our trading away of first-round picks, choosing whom to draft, what picks to purchase and not to purchase, not playing or even developing our young players, not scouting the D-League for talent even as other teams are doing so. Heck, he's responsible for delegating who's making such choices if he really wants to make that lame argument.

What happened with the no excuses of having higher expectations as soon as he arrived here with the roster, assets, and team control. As it has been painfully evident to everyone except Ballmer, dude has been nothing but a excuse-making fraud who is now trying to use Lawrence Frank as a scapegoat for all his personnel-decision failures.

Doc has set records for postseason failure. He couldn't even win without a roster full of Hall-of-Famers and star players. Even then,
he couldn't do so without Tom Thibodeau's defensive brilliance. I've said from the beginning the guy was overrated but was hopeful our collection of talent and his experience would be enough to get us over the hump. However, the dude has been slow to admit or otherwise realize things that have been obvious (to me at least) from the beginning such as defense winning championships, draft picks as being valuable, benefits of length and athleticism at the wings, roster depth keeps starters refreshed and healthy, the value of developing young players as cost-effective resource, etc.

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[og15]

I draft picks haven't really been bad though as much as Doc gets hated on for them.

Reggie Bullock: Good pick if he didn't have injury and seemingly confidence issues. He made sense. He got us Rivers who is actually now considered a decent piece for a trade around the league, so Bullock basically has panned out in the end

CJ Wilcox: Awful pick that made no sense, still don't understand the logic or lack thereof

Branden Dawson: He was the 56th pick, and I don't know what a bad pick is supposed to be in the range, but I think he's still the only pick in the 50's from that draft to get any NBA minutes at all up until now

Brice Johnson: Seems like a solid pick, but he was injured all season, it certainly made sense and he seems to currently have skills and still have some room for growth

Diamond Stone: Solid project bench pick in the second round, the kind of players a team like this should pick in the 2nd round

David Michineau: Seems like a wasted of a pick, young (22 years old), but not super young and he still needs development, don't get that one tbh. Still an awful outside shooter (19.5% on 2.8 3PA in 16-17), still not really a PG, and still turnover prone (4.0 tov/40). I guess the idea is for him to be a defensive combo guard at 6'4, but then he's also just 180 lbs and weak, so he can't really help much at SG

Outside of Wilcox, the first round picks have been fine and made sense. The second round picks have also all been fine, except Michineau is still a confusing one. I know as fans we love hyperbole and over-reaction, but the way people talk about the teams drafting, you would think good starters and/or stars who were almost obvious picks were consistently being picked in the Clippers range and we were missing out. That's not the case. I personally don't like the idea of just going back to the draft and looking at any pick after a teams pick who is better and say "look they should have chosen him". Generally another 5,6 team, including very good drafting teams also passed up on those same players.

Also to be fair to the front office, there was a very weak scouting presence for most years, and Ballmer along with Frank just overhauled and added multiple jobs and positions in all these departments last off-season, so the team was already behind and is currently playing catch up anyways.

To me the real issue isn't really the players they did pick, it's not having enough picks. At the range the Clippers are picking, you are at best looking at a rotation player, not even a starter on average. It's when you have more picks that you're able to find a surprise. Since Doc joined, there have been 4 drafts. Technically the Clippers should have drafted 8 players, 4 first round and 4 second round. The Clippers have drafted 3 first round and 3 second round. Maybe you're thinking that 2 more draft picks is nothing, but it can make a difference in just giving you more options of players who could possibly give you something. The mid 2000's Suns aren't around anymore, but the Clippers also should certainly always be looking to buy picks.

[TucsonClip]

Logic behind nearly all of Doc's draft pics:

22 or over
Play one position
Cant create off the dribble

If a player fits those requirement, draft.

[nickhx2]

provides depth at a position that's already deeply covered ensuring the player will never play or be able to contribute while areas of need go unaddressed

[Ranma]

To me the real issue isn't really the players they did pick, it's not having enough picks. At the range the Clippers are picking, you are at best looking at a rotation player, not even a starter on average. It's when you have more picks that you're able to find a surprise. Since Doc joined, there have been 4 drafts. Technically the Clippers should have drafted 8 players, 4 first round and 4 second round. The Clippers have drafted 3 first round and 3 second round. Maybe you're thinking that 2 more draft picks is nothing, but it can make a difference in just giving you more options of players who could possibly give you something. The mid 2000's Suns aren't around anymore, but the Clippers also should certainly always be looking to buy picks.

I'm sorry, og15, I can't get onboard with your assessment of Doc's drafts not being bad in any way shape or form. It's just excuses after the fact. I know you're not a Doc apologist, but it comes off that way when you consider it's not just after-the-fact bemoaning but the approach and lack of results as a whole.

He himself showed that he devalued the draft as a resource by practicaly giving away first-round draft picks like candy on Halloween. It's obvious he does so because he does not have the ability or inclination to draft and then develop young players. That mindset shaped his approach as to why we don't have as many draft picks in the first place. Then a few years later, after he witnessed how hard it is to even get decent second-round picks, he tried to buy his way back into the draft by only being able to have Ballmer purchase the 56th pick in the 2015 draft. Much like with everything else, he was behind the curve as a GM. What is so frustrating is that it is an obvious thing anybody who follows the NBA--or professional sports, for that matter--should have known.

Draft picks are a tremendous resource as a cost-effective pipeline to get contributors on a team, especially in the salary cap era.
The problem is compounded further by his unwillingness to develop or even play draft picks or any other young players not related to him. Can you really call yourself a basketball coach if you are not able or willing to develop skill sets of your basketball players even or maybe especially on the professional level? If you're just motivating people to play, you're really just a manager in baseball. If you're just drawing up plays, then you're more of an offensive coordinator in football. I expect basketball coaches to be more well-rounded and develop their players, which is further infuriating given his salary and responsibilities.

An underrated part about drafting talent is developing it. That is why we have minor leagues in the NHL and MLB, however, the NFL doesn't have minor leagues and yet its teams still find ways to incorporate raw players into games and practices in molding them to be contributing players at key positions. Other NBA teams have done that whether it is with drat picks or even D-League signings. Doc hasn't.

I appreciate the effort you put into your argument as well as the logic behind it, but I can't accept it as a reasonable excuse for Doc's failings. As I've said before, my problem with Doc's drafts are not entirely because of the results but the approach with which he has taken towards the process. Much like defense winning championships, the draft is the lifeblood of successful organizations that allows them to be competitive in the long-term. Doc's approach has been short-sighted and, quite frankly, dismissive since he was handed the assets to get us over the hump in squandering opportunities to reach the expectations he used to welcome before making excuses for not fulfilling them. ESPN's front-office insider Amin Elhassan says it perfectly that Doc was given the hard part of having star players already on the roster, but has fumbled the relatively easy part of finding role players to contribute. Those failings are a direct result of his attitude and mindset.

The lack of resources whether in scouting or lack of available draft picks doesn't hold water since he is President of Basketball Operations with tremendous influence given his pay scale and job title. Dean Lombardi and Stan Kasten were both charged with turning around the Los Angeles Kings and Dodgers, respectively, when they took over and both did so in less time Doc was given.
Lombardi got the Kings 2 Stanley Cup championships, in part, by putting more focus and being more successful through the draft albeit in the lower rounds. Unfortunately, he sabotaged his own efforts by trying shortsightedly to maintain that championship roster by trading away first-round picks for rentals and handing out bad long-term contracts, which led to the dismissal of his coach, Darryl Sutter, and himself.

Kasten quickly put forth the effort and resources to revamp the Dodgers' developmental pipeline after the Guggenheim Group purchased the Dodgers from Frank McCourt, who left the farm system in disarray during his ownership. While the organization hasn't yet ended its close-to-30-year drought of winning a World Series title, its minor league system has already produced the likes of 2016 Rookie of the Year and MVP candidate Corey Seager as well as currently hot-hitting Cody Bellinger to name a few. Its farm also allowed the Dodgers to trade assets to acquire Rich Hill and, despite the recent loss of prospects through graduation and trades, its prospects pools still remain the best in baseball.

As Neddy and Quake Griffin are aware given my discussion of the the MLB Draft these past few years on the Dodgers' board, I'm not only concerned with results but also the approach and strategy with which we handle the draft process. I can go into detail in refuting the draft picks you've cited but I've already rambled on quite a bit at this point. Let me know if you want me to elaborate further and I'll try to address it in a more succinct fashion when I have time later, but in short, I'll cite TucsonClip's response above as to his short-sighted approach in that Doc doesn't go with the Best Player Available strategy and instead chose to select older players who supposedly were more polished but limited (typically lack of athleticism that he is bemoaning now) who were to fit into his own system, but never did for all of the aforementioned reasons. He can't complain about the shortcomings of the lack of resources and draft when he's the guy who is responsible for those very shortcomings.

[wco81]

Too bad the NBA draft doesn't have a fourth round so the Clippers, or any other team, could draft someone like Cody Bellinger so low.

Dodgers either knew something other teams didn't or they performed alchemy to get a 4th round pick to be one of the top 10 MLB prospects.

[nickhx2]

i don't follow baseball so others can better tell me. but is it not too early to say a rookie is a top 10 mlb prospect in a game where streaks occur at the drop of a hat, and where new hitters can often start very strong before they begin to get solved by the league?

[Ranma]

Too bad the NBA draft doesn't have a fourth round so the Clippers, or any other team, could draft someone like Cody Bellinger so low.

Dodgers either knew something other teams didn't or they performed alchemy to get a 4th round pick to be one of the top 10 MLB prospects.

It's not just Cody Bellinger, though. They've also hit on Walker Buehler with the 24th overall pick in the 2015 draft,
who was previously considered a top-10 pick but fell down the draft board due to health concerns. He received Tommy John surgery but has been gangbusters since his return and the Dodgers have been handling him with kid gloves to preserve his arm. Mitchell White, a second-round pick in the recent 2016 draft, was a find with late "helium" seemingly out of nowhere who is also generating buzz himself; ESPN's Keith Law recently noted that he was possibly the best college pitcher from the 2016 draft.

On top of that, the Dodgers also invested heavily in the international signing pool of 2015 and got another live but raw arm with tremendous upside in Yadier Alvarez. If those 3 pitching prospects continue their current trajectory, they'll soon be among the top 10 prospects in baseball themselves. As it stands right now, the Dodgers already have arguably 6 of the top 100 prospects in baseball and that doesn't even include White or former Dodgers prospects who were recently traded away, otherwise, it'd be 10 (would have been 11 if they had drafted highly touted prospect Delvin Perez in 2016 who tested positive for PED just prior to the draft).

Speaking of former Dodgers prospects, their developmental system did a great job of not only finding late-round gems but developing them as well. Take Jose De Leon, for instance. He was taken in the 24th round in the 2013 draft but was developed into one the team's top prospects. It was only for a lack of an available roster spot in a Major League rotation and the depth of pitching talent already in the organization, namely Brock Stewart--a 2014 6th-rounder himself--that allowed and kind of forced the Dodgers to trade him to the the Rays. He's currently ranked right behind Bellinger at 33rd overall in MLB Pipeline's 2016 Prospect Watch of top 100 rankings, but like you said, those rankings look a bit outdated given Bellinger's recent performance even if we're trying not to place any undue expectations on the kid.

[Ranma]

i don't follow baseball so others can better tell me. but is it not too early to say a rookie is a top 10 mlb prospect in a game where streaks occur at the drop of a hat, and where new hitters can often start very strong before they begin to get solved by the league?

No, you're right. See my response above. Belly is lighting up the league similar to what Yasiel Puig did in 2013 in his debut season before crashing and burning only to make progress toward getting back to being a contributing MLB player right now. Pitchers will make adjustments to him, so it'll be a matter of how he adjusts to such new gameplanning for him as well as how he handles the eventual struggles.

I'll have to defer to Neddy, who is more experienced and expert in his assessment of baseball talent, but Bellinger gets high marks for being a bloodline prospect as the son of former Major Leaguer Clay Bellinger. He should be more mature and experienced on how to handle the travails of the MLB life.

It's funny. I've noted that he is a notch below Corey Seager as a prospect, but one can't help but get excited by his current hot streak, especially in light of how he was developed. When Cody Bellinger was drafted, he was known more for batting average and sound approach to the plate as well as a Glove-Glove-caliber defense at 1B with enough versatility to handle CF and LF. He subsequently and in relatively short order changed his diet to add more lean muscle and put more loft into his swing to generate the power we now are witnessing in games. His strikeout rates subsequently rose, but again in his relatively brief minor-league career, he's made adjustments to lowering that K-rate.

I like his makeup as a prospect who knows what it takes to be an MLB player and seems committed to doing so. The fact that he started out as a good batter who proactively took a more power-centric approach while trying to be mindful of his previous training as a high-average batter seems to bode well for him.

As an aside, Corey Seager also happens to come from a baseball family himself in that his brother Kyle Seager is an All-Star (2014)
third baseman for the Seattle Mariners. Corey would get tips from his brother on how to be a professional baseball player. The younger Seager has always had the potential to be better than his big brother. As an MVP candidate and rookie of the year, I'd say that has likely proven to be the case.

[og15]

To me the real issue isn't really the players they did pick, it's not having enough picks. At the range the Clippers are picking, you are at best looking at a rotation player, not even a starter on average. It's when you have more picks that you're able to find a surprise. Since Doc joined, there have been 4 drafts. Technically the Clippers should have drafted 8 players, 4 first round and 4 second round. The Clippers have drafted 3 first round and 3 second round. Maybe you're thinking that 2 more draft picks is nothing, but it can make a difference in just giving you more options of players who could possibly give you something. The mid 2000's Suns aren't around anymore, but the Clippers also should certainly always be looking to buy picks.

[color=#FF4000]I'm sorry, og15, I can't get onboard with your assessment of Doc's drafts not being bad in any way shape or form. It's just excuses after the fact.

I think the reason you can't get on board with that is because that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that the majority of he draft picks haven't been that bad. Bullock was a reasonable pick. Again, like I said, Wilcox was an awful pick, so obviously I'm not saying that Doc's drafts were not bad in any way shape or form if I'm saying that Wilcox was a horrible pick.

Dawson despite being old was a good pick for that range. Johnson seems like a decent pick. Stone is the kind of pick we want from the second round, young potential guys. Michineau, again, I'm going from a limited view, but the pick didn't make sense to me, but he is supposedly another potential pick and even a draft and stash which goes against all what Doc did with his first two drafts.

He himself showed that he devalued the draft as a resource by practicaly giving away first-round draft picks like candy on Halloween. It's obvious he does so because he does not have the ability or inclination to draft and then develop young players. That mindset shaped his approach as to why we don't have as many draft picks in the first place. Then a few years later, after he witnessed how hard it is to even get decent second-round picks, he tried to buy his way back into the draft by only being able to have Ballmer purchase the 56th pick in the 2015 draft. Much like with everything else, he was behind the curve as a GM. What is so frustrating is that it is an obvious thing anybody who follows the NBA--or professional sports, for that matter--should have known.

Of course he didn't have a holistic view, this is because he had no experience as a GM and the Clippers gave him a role he shouldn't have had or even if he did, he shouldn't have had without giving him the right support. What should have happened is that even if Doc was going to be president of basketball operations, you get an experienced GM in the mix to help guide him along. Maybe Doc could be a decent GM if he also wasn't a coach, but there's a reason Pop got Buford and let's him do whatever he wants, and there's a reason Budenholzer stepped down as President of Basketball Operations etc.

Draft picks are a tremendous resource as a cost-effective pipeline to get contributors on a team, especially in the salary cap era. The problem is compounded further by his unwillingness to develop or even play draft picks or any other young players not related to him.

Was the issue Doc not wanting to play the draft picks or was it him getting players who were not worth playing or weren't even young players who needed to be developed? Bullock's minutes were right in line with the way other coaches on 50+ win teams played similar players. His development was actually good if we're comparing to the rest of the league. Wilcox, what was the point of him on the team in the first place? I didn't care that Wilcox didn't play, the pick never made sense to me. Dawson even stepping on an NBA court as a rookie was an accomplishment for the average player drafted in his range. Just getting to be in practice with an NBA team was actually more than most guys in his range get, so I can't really criticize that one if I'm being honest. Johnson suffered with injuries, but he should have got more burn later in the season. Stone got the right treatment, he needed a ton of work and I've looked at how other coaches in he league develop players like him, and playing them in the D-League for even basically the whole season is what they mostly do.

I appreciate the effort you put into your argument as well as the logic behind, but I can't accept it as a reasonable excuse for Doc's failings. As I've said before, my problem with Doc's drafts are not entirely because of the results but the approach with which he has taken towards the process. Much like defense winning championships, the draft is the lifeblood of successful organizations that allows them to be competitive in the long-term. Doc's approach has been short-sighted and, quite frankly, dismissive since he was handed the assets to get us over the hump in squandering opportunities to reach the expectations he used to welcome before making excuses for not fulfilling them. ESPN's front-office insider Amin Elhassan says it perfectly that Doc was already given the hard part of having star players already on the roster, but has fumbled the relatively easy part of finding role players to contribute. Those failings are a direct result of his attitude and mindset.

This I agree with, and yes, it is Doc's fault, but it is also Ballmer's fault. Doc had no GM experience. David Wohl had some experience with Miami and Boston, but he was generally considered to be in an advisory role to Doc, and his powers were limited. A coach is always more short sighted than an independent GM looking from the outside in because a coach is thinking of who can help now, while a GM generally is going to see the bigger picture of how to continue to build.

The lack of resources whether in scouting or lack of available draft picks doesn't hold water since he is President of Basketball Operations with tremendous influence given his pay scale and job title.

It is Doc's fault, but it is the organizations fault for not putting someone in the role that Frank currently has right now before. I don't think it is a coincidence that when Frank was put in the Executive VP of Basketball Ops role, then suddenly changes were being made and there was a direction. You can't spend all year coaching and have time to seriously learn and know how to run an organization and front office, etc. Doc basically got the job because of the whole Sterling fiasco, but he obviously barely had any clue what he was really doing. He basically knew the minimum of what needed to be done, and maybe he could have been able to pick it up quickly and get things going well, but guess what? He had to coach and prepare for coaching.

In the end, my feeling is that Doc should have never had the role, but from his limited view as a coach with that role, his draft picks weren't all bad. Even trading draft picks in itself is not bad, it just depends on what you are trading those draft picks for. 82games.com back when they were still relevant did a study on the expected player level from draft picks, so of course trading a pick can make sense.

[Ranma]

i don't follow baseball so others can better tell me. but is it not too early to say a rookie is a top 10 mlb prospect in a game where streaks occur at the drop of a hat, and where new hitters can often start very strong before they begin to get solved by the league?

I forgot to mention that despite MLB Pipeline's current rankings, many baseball experts and some publications already had Cody Bellinger among the top 10 prospects in baseball going into the season.

Dustin Nosler, DodgersDigest.com (3/15/17)

Looking at How Dodgers’ Prospects Rank, Globally

[wammi_K]

What do you guys think about Wilson Chandler?


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[wammi_K]

I also don't think we should resign JJ

[donemilio21]

What do you guys think about Wilson Chandler?


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We should refrain from trading future 1st round picks for mediocre veteran players in general.

also; that is a very bad trade for Clippers. We should not engage in any trade talks that does not involve moving Jamal's contract first.

[Quake Griffin]

No more 1st round picks going out please.

Freeze on sending out picks.
I'm trying to figure out how to get more picks right now.

[TucsonClip]

I like Chandler, but I dont see why we would make that deal.

[nickhx2]

that's because that deal is putrid

[wammi_K]

that's because that deal is putrid

it is, i was just bringing it up


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