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Official Offseason Thread
Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 8:53 pm
by mkwest
jesse
How do u expect the clippers free agents’ situation handled? Foye, Billups, Young, Martin, Evans all f.a.’s…if gomes were amnestied who would u give that $ to? I like Young as starting 2 for the mle and gomes’ $ to martin…u?Larry Coon The Clippers made a great start with their roster overhaul, and now they need to build on their success, with the goal of keeping CP3 & Blake long-term. Nothing does that more than winning, or at least demonstrating to the players that they’re committed to becoming a winner. They won’t have Bird rights to Chauncey (unless the union somehow prevails in the arbitration), and need to resolve the starting two spot. Landing someone like Ray Allen would be a coup for them, if that was at all possible.
I think they hope Mo Williams opts out, since they can’t really afford to pay him $8.5 million and do a lot with their roster. If he opts in, then they will probably try to trade him. I think Bledsoe will firmly establish himself as the first guard off the bench.
Young would be an interesting fallback if they don’t land a better two, but remember they don’t have Bird rights to him, either.
So to summarize, I think they try to keep Evans and K-Mart. I think they want to bring back Young & Chauncey if they can afford to, but the ability to land a front-line two might change their plans. I don’t think they do much to hang onto Foye or Williams (if he opts out), and I think they try to move Gomes and Williams (if he opts in). DeAndre gets at least another year to continue to develop.
HoopsWorld
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:55 pm
by mike3
Sounds good to me. I like Foye as a person but so it'll be sad to see him leave, hopefully we can hang onto him for cheap, remember, this guy has come up huge a fair few games this season despite not showing up consistantly in the playoffs
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 12:11 am
by scratch21
We gotta bench Foye hes been horrible
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 1:16 am
by og15
I think opinions on bringing Foye back were different a few weeks ago. I really don't mind Foye, but there's only so many guards one can have, and his size and defensive ability are not optimal for winning a championship. I'm not sold on re-signing both Kenyon and Reggie, not because I don't like them, but because the front line needs better size, better shooting and better offense off the bench, or at least 1/3 of those.
Here's probably the #1 baseline scenario (that is without any "big" signings):
-Mo Williams opts out
-Ryan Gomes is amnestied
-re-sign Chauncey Billups
-re-sign Nick Young (~$4-5 million / year if at all possible, but if J.J Redick makes $6.5 million), if not, Foye might be back as a cheap starter until Billups is healthy
-sign a big man with size (Aaron Gray, Kwame Brown, etc)
-re-sign Reggie Evans or Kenyon (or both, depending on if another big man is acquired)
-sign a defensive decent to good outside shooting wing (Matt Barnes, Brandon Rush then maybe no Young)
Example Roster could be:
PG: Paul / Bledsoe
SG: Billups / Young
SF: Caron / Barnes
PF: Blake / Reggie or Kenyon
C: Jordan / K.Brown
-that's an improvement, but something still feels missing. I'm not huge on Young with Billups around, I would prefer a better defensive player maybe a guy like Brandon Rush as a SF/SG and a third really cheap wing for injury insurance is a better option.
The less exciting scenario is having to trade Mo Williams because he opts back in. I have no clue what one could get for Mo right now, so I don't have any examples.
The unpopular opinion scenario is trading Eric Bledsoe in combination with a guy like Butler while his value is high from the playoffs for an improvement at SF position, but like I said, for an improvement, not for some average player. I know the general fan tendency is to love young players production and never want to move them, so it wouldn't be an accepted move until it is shown to pan out. I don't have this acquirable player that I consider an improvement, so it's just a thought.
The "if this happens I would explode with joy" scenario's are Kevin Garnett being the ultimate one, Ray Allen being a less exciting, but still nice one. Maybe a not so thought of one is Kirilenko as a PF/SF backup, but he would be expensive.
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:28 am
by mkwest
og15 wrote:I think opinions on bringing Foye back were different a few weeks ago. I really don't mind Foye, but there's only so many guards one can have, and his size and defensive ability are not optimal for winning a championship. I'm not sold on re-signing both Kenyon and Reggie, not because I don't like them, but because the front line needs better size, better shooting and better offense off the bench, or at least 1/3 of those.
I agree on Foye. A few weeks ago, it was looking like he was worthy of being re-upped. The disappearing act in the playoffs is disturbing. We do have his early bird rights, which means we'd be able to offer him a similar salary up to 150% (I'm not 100% certain) of his current deal if we wanted to keep him. I like what Reggie and Kenyon both bring, but I wish they could be combined into 1 player. Reggie has the rebounds and toughness. Kenyon is the better defender, shot blocker, and occasional scorer. Both are undersized and we really need another legitimate big body. DJ is 6'11, Blake and Trey are 6'10 and everybody else is smaller than that. I would love someone like Pachulia, but a Mahinmi-type could do.
og15 wrote:Here's probably the #1 baseline scenario (that is without any "big" signings):
-Mo Williams opts out
-Ryan Gomes is amnestied
-re-sign Chauncey Billups
-re-sign Nick Young (~$4-5 million / year if at all possible, but if J.J Redick makes $6.5 million), if not, Foye might be back as a cheap starter until Billups is healthy
-sign a big man with size (Aaron Gray, Kwame Brown, etc)
-re-sign Reggie Evans or Kenyon (or both, depending on if another big man is acquired)
-sign a defensive decent to good outside shooting wing (Matt Barnes, Brandon Rush then maybe no Young)
Example Roster could be:
PG: Paul / Bledsoe
SG: Billups / Young
SF: Caron / Barnes
PF: Blake / Reggie or Kenyon
C: Jordan / K.Brown
-that's an improvement, but something still feels missing. I'm not huge on Young with Billups around, I would prefer a better defensive player maybe a guy like Brandon Rush as a SF/SG and a third really cheap wing for injury insurance is a better option.
The less exciting scenario is having to trade Mo Williams because he opts back in. I have no clue what one could get for Mo right now, so I don't have any examples.
I felt that Rush would have been a great fit on this team coming off of the bench this season. He's a defender and can knock down the 3.
What Mo has going for him is that he will be an expiring contract. He is kind of in the Kaman situation where he is an expiring, but also a decent player that can help a contender. As the expiring, you may get a player from a team trying to trim salary to get out of an expensive contract or trying to free up salary for free-agency. As an addition to a contender, you're not going to get much back besides some spare parts.
og15 wrote:The unpopular opinion scenario is trading Eric Bledsoe in combination with a guy like Butler while his value is high from the playoffs for an improvement at SF position, but like I said, for an improvement, not for some average player. I know the general fan tendency is to love young players production and never want to move them, so it wouldn't be an accepted move until it is shown to pan out. I don't have this acquirable player that I consider an improvement, so it's just a thought.
The "if this happens I would explode with joy" scenario's are Kevin Garnett being the ultimate one, Ray Allen being a less exciting, but still nice one. Maybe a not so thought of one is Kirilenko as a PF/SF backup, but he would be expensive.
If Bledsoe keeps playing like this, it would be hard to keep him anyway when he'll be up for a new contract. I would not be against trading him in a package for a significant piece. The Kool-Aid tastes good, but some people have had theirs spiked. I'm not even going to repeat what I have at other Clipper boards regarding Bledsoe

Pure insanity.
Garnett is more than likely a pipedream, but you jump all over it if he makes himself available. Allen needs to get his ankle issues cleared up. It's almost a foregone conclusion that Kirilenko is going to New Jersey...er...I mean Brooklyn.
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:58 am
by og15
Yea, Boston is basically 99.9% signing KG, and yea, Kirilenko has that Russian connection in Brooklyn, so he's another pipe dream. That's still going to be an adjustment for me to be saying Brooklyn. Ray Allen is more realistic, but I wouldn't want to sign him to more than 2 years, and considering he's looking for a championship (though maybe also wants to start, which becomes interesting when Billups returns), he might want to see some other improvements on the team before he joins.
In terms of Bledsoe, this is the nature of like 50% of fans of a team. Fans, we, love young talent with potential, and any signs they show get's overblown, and the players get over-hyped by the teams fans. Young talent is almost always (there are exceptions) over-hyped by the fans of the team. Some fan bases do it more than others, for example, New York fans get picked on a lot for this.
One of the biggest GM decisions is when you have a core, when should you get rid of potential to get to the next level. With Bledsoe being a PG and the teams best player being a PG, this is kinda one of those times that you take the "why did you trade our young player with potential" hit IF you can find a key player. Then there's also the window of opportunity, because if the player shows potential, but the strides aren't made, the interest wanes and value decreases.
I think one has to be realistic though, if you can get a cheap, but effective backup PG, then trading Bledsoe in a package to significantly improve at a position that plays 30+ MPG is just the smart thing to do team building wise. So Bledsoe and Butler for a really good SF, or Bledsoe and DJ for a really good C would be wise. Problem of course is that I don't think I know of any one acquirable player that fits that bill.
Back to free agency, the only free agent that is a game changer and would automatically make the team a championship contender is KG. Outside of that, there isn't anyone out there that will do that. I'm of the camp of not handicapping oneself trying to improve and impress your players in the short term and then miss out on the future available players. There are some players who are becoming free agents in 2014 that would be "better fits". CP becomes a FA that year, and Blake should have an extension by then.
If I'm Olshey, I'm not signing or trading for any player who has a more than small sized contract past 2014 unless I believe the player will be a critical piece. So it's all about 2 year contracts to all non rookie and under MLE type guys.
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:38 am
by clippermitch
Our biggest need this offseason is to sign a stretch 4 or a C that can shoot from the perimeter and has a post game. Sound familiar? His name is Kaman! I doubt he comes back but a player like him would open up the offense too reliant on the pick and roll.
Maybe Trey can become our Channing Frye too.
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:53 am
by mkwest
I could see Allen signing 2 years/$10M or the MLE equivalent somewhere, but no more than $7M per.
I like Young talent that is actually showing something. With Bledsoe, he's pretty much the only young trade chip that we have that could potentially be worth something of value. You want to find the diamonds in the rough and watch them grow on your team, but we need to be concerned about fielding the best team possible as you stated. He could get even better and increase his value more or go the other way and be a missed opportunity. At the very least, Neil should listen to what's out there and if it isn't something that is going to improve the team significantly enough, then just keep him.
What I am about to say is going to rub a lot of Clipper Nation the wrong way, but Brand could be available. I read on the Philly board that someone with some insight into the organization is saying that Brand is likely to be amnestied. I know a lot of people still hate his guts (even though we wouldn't have Paul or Blake if he would have signed), but he'd be a nice addition to the frontcourt rotation. He isn't what he was, but he's still nice on the defensive end. He's vertically challenged, but his length/reach make up for the shortcomings. He'd also fit into halfcourt style that Neil was talking about. If he is actually amnestied, somebody is going to claim and you need cap space to do so. We may have that and we may not, I wouldn't object to us bringing him back. I'm over it.
Paul will be a free-agent next summer (2013). I'm not sure if that is what you meant or not. 2014 is could have a ton of
free-agents and the entire league could look drastically different if some of those guys move onto different teams. Caron will be an expiring the prior to that offseason and could be a hot commodity on the trade market.
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:11 am
by og15
Oops, got my years mixed up, but yes, Paul and Blake should hopefully be signed by 2013, and 2014 summer will be interesting.
In regards to Brand, if he's willing, I can't say I would be against it. In the end, him not signing was for the best and prevented a huge contract without the productivity to match it.
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 6:12 pm
by scoobs07
1. Mo opts out
2. Amnesty Gomes
3. renounce rights to Foye
4. open up 10 million in cap space
5. sign Ray Allen for 4 years/ 22 million
6. sign Nick Young for 4 years/ 22 million
7. sign KMart for 1 year/ 2 million
8. sign Evans for 2 years/ 4 million
9. sign Thompkins for 3 years/ 3 million
10. sign Chauncy for vets min
Thompkins could ultimately emerge as the back up PF/C due to his offensive skills. He just needs to develop a little bit. I see where Olshey was going with that pick.
PF-Griffin/Evans/Thompkins
SF-Butler/Young
C-DJ/KMart
PG-CP/EBled
SG-Allen/Billups/Leslie
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:46 pm
by ejftw
One of my takes:
Trade Maurice Williams, Ryan Gomes to the Atlanta Hawks for Zaza Pachulia, Marvin Williams, #43.
-Hawks give up on the Marvin experiment and deal his contract for an expiring one in Gomes at the cost of their backup big man and early 2nd Round Pick. Clippers gain some size, a legit backup SF with size who still may improve and a second pick in the 2nd round.
Bring back Chauncey Billups, Nick Young, Kenyon Martin (unless Brand is amnestied and Clips can get him). Sign Shaun Livingston OR Carlos Delfino
CE: DeAndre Jordan - Zaza Pachulia
PF: Blake Griffin - Kenyon Martin/Elton Brand - Trey Thompkins
SF: Caron Butler - Marvin Williams - Travis Leslie
SG: Nick Young - Eric Bledsoe - Randy Foye
PG: Chris Paul - Chauncey Billups - Livingston/Delfino
More size, better bench. Didn't really upgrade the starting SG spot but I think with Young staring and options off the bench like Billups, Foye, Delfino/Liv, Clippers would be fine.
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 9:22 pm
by scratch21
We have to sign Nick. I dont want Caron starting next season he might be suited for a 6th man role
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:40 pm
by Sofia
If Rose is going to miss all of next season, or come back after all star at best, think the Bulls would be interested in something around Bledsoe and Caron for Deng?
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 12:52 am
by og15
scoobs07 wrote:1. Mo opts out
2. Amnesty Gomes
3. renounce rights to Foye
4. open up 10 million in cap space
5. sign Ray Allen for 4 years/ 22 million
6. sign Nick Young for 4 years/ 22 million
7. sign KMart for 1 year/ 2 million
8. sign Evans for 2 years/ 4 million
9. sign Thompkins for 3 years/ 3 million
10. sign Chauncy for vets min
Thompkins could ultimately emerge as the back up PF/C due to his offensive skills. He just needs to develop a little bit. I see where Olshey was going with that pick.
PF-Griffin/Evans/Thompkins
SF-Butler/Young
C-DJ/KMart
PG-CP/EBled
SG-Allen/Billups/Leslie
Don't forget how old Ray Allen is (36), do you think 4 years would be smart when taking that into consideration?
Nick Young is not really a SF, and can't guard them very well. To sign both Ray Allen and Young to 4/$22 is to invest $11 million in the SG position over the next 4 years. If Ray Allen is signed, it means saying goodbye to Young. In that case, a defensive and hopefully shooter SG/SF is what is needed.
Also, with all the free agents coming to the market in 2014, an extra $11 million should not be added to the payroll over two players. Just some thoughts
Mats272-GOAT wrote:If Rose is going to miss all of next season, or come back after all star at best, think the Bulls would be interested in something around Bledsoe and Caron for Deng?
I don't think they would be interested, they can sign a guy like Andre Miller or Raymond Felton, etc. They aren't going to go all the way without Rose, so they won't just trade away key pieces while he's out unless they get better. Having Deng is better than having Caron and Bledsoe.
ejftw, do you think Milwaukee is going to decline Shaun's $3.5 million team option? Also Delfino is a good signing as a defensive / shooter SF/SG.
In terms of the Hawks deal, Marvin is currently more productive than Caron, and Zaza is their best big man over 6'10. Zaza expires after next season and Marvin's contract is the same length as Caron's except that he has a PO for 13/14 that he might not pick up. They actually save more money keeping their own guys because Zaza is an expiring $5.2 million, while Gomes is an expiring $4 million.
scratch21 wrote:We have to sign Nick. I dont want Caron starting next season he might be suited for a 6th man role
Nick isn't a SF though, he can't guard them, he's too skinny. He has the length, but not the strength. Imagine Nick guarding Lebron, Artest, Durant, Carmelo, Gay, Granger, Deng, etc, not a pretty sight. He's 6'6 / 200 lbs, most of those guys are 6'8 or more and 230 lbs or more. He's just too small there. He's a SG. Also, depending on how much he's signed for, it's hard for a front office to justify paying that much money for two mediocre SF's.
____________
With the Brand amnesty news, something like:
PG: Paul / Bledsoe
SG: Young / Billups
SF: Butler / Delfino
PF: Blake / Brand / Evans
C: D.Jordan / A.Gray
The front-court get's defense and size with Brand and Gray, along with front-court scoring and shooting with Brand. Also get wing defense and shooting with Delfino, and a stabilizing factor in Billups. Obviously this is all under the supposition that Billups comes back well from his achilles injury. While Billups is still getting healthy, Delfino has the capability of effectively playing SG along with SF.
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 9:00 am
by scoobs07
Im down for claiming EB. Maybe 3 million dollars would get it done?
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 9:23 am
by scoobs07
1. Trade Mo to Orlando for a future top 55 protected 2nd round pick.
2. Amnesty Gomes
3. Renounce rights to Foye, KMart, Evans, Billups, Thompkins and Leslie.
4. Bid 4 million dollars for Elton Brand (amnesty clause)
5. Sign Ray Allen for 3 years/ 16 million
6. Sign Carlos Delfino for mini mid leavel 2 years/ 5 million
7. Sign Billups, Evans, Leslie and Thompkins to minimum contracts.
PF-Griffin/Evans/Thompkins
SF-Butler/Delfino
C-Jordan/Brand
PG-Paul/Bledsoe
SG-Allen/Billups/Leslie
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:12 am
by mkwest
As intended, this is going to be the official offseason thread.
Clippers president talks future"I think coach did an outstanding job," Paul said of Del Negro. "Also with Neil (Olshey) and them in our front office. Everybody knows what happened in mid-December with the trade going through, picking up Chauncey (Billups) off the waiver wire.
"Then Chauncey going down and all the injuries we had to endure. It's been a rollercoaster season for us, but I think the way they managed everything was great. Bringing in K-Mart (Kenyon Martin), bringing in Reggie Evans, they did an outstanding job. The season was crazy enough with 66 games, but they helped us get here. Now we have to build from it."
One player who won't be going anywhere, at least of his own volition, is guard Mo Williams, who told ESPNLosAngeles.com that he did not intent to opt-out of his $8.5 million player option for next season.
"No," Williams said when asked if he would opt-out this summer. "I can tell you that right now."
"I think one of the interesting things, when you play a team like San Antonio, is that your weaknesses are on display," Roeser said. "It's going to give us a lot to think about in the offseason.
"I think we absolutely look at this and say, 'If we want to get to the next level, there's more we're going to have to do.' But we're prepared to do those things."
Ramona Shelburne,
ESPN Los Angeles
As of today, Mo Williams is not opting out. That is what I expected, although I did hope that he would do otherwise.
Re: Official 2012 Offseason Thread
Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:57 am
by mike3
Does anyone else feel bad for Mo?
Remember when he was the guy trying to bring (Butler I think) to Clips as our first big move, I remember he was so involved in the roster and everything else. He was passionate and did what he could to help us, always give us his all.. yet somehow as its a business it looks like he'll have to be traded as the right move for our roster.
Feel for him
Re: Larry Coon's take on Clippers' offseason plans
Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:05 am
by mike3
ejftw wrote:One of my takes:
Trade Maurice Williams, Ryan Gomes to the Atlanta Hawks for Zaza Pachulia, Marvin Williams, #43.
-Hawks give up on the Marvin experiment and deal his contract for an expiring one in Gomes at the cost of their backup big man and early 2nd Round Pick. Clippers gain some size, a legit backup SF with size who still may improve and a second pick in the 2nd round.
Bring back Chauncey Billups, Nick Young, Kenyon Martin (unless Brand is amnestied and Clips can get him). Sign Shaun Livingston OR Carlos Delfino
CE: DeAndre Jordan - Zaza Pachulia
PF: Blake Griffin - Kenyon Martin/Elton Brand - Trey Thompkins
SF: Caron Butler - Marvin Williams - Travis Leslie
SG: Nick Young - Eric Bledsoe - Randy Foye
PG: Chris Paul - Chauncey Billups - Livingston/Delfino
More size, better bench. Didn't really upgrade the starting SG spot but I think with Young staring and options off the bench like Billups, Foye, Delfino/Liv, Clippers would be fine.
This is about the best scenario I've seen in my opinion. The thing I've found with our roster is I literally like everyone and would be happy to keep them.. except Gomes.
These moves gives us everything we kinda need to help us, someone like Marvin Williams at SF would be great. Keeping Bledsoe has to be a priority, the only tough call would be Kenyon over Reggie seeing as Reggie has done so much for us but I think Kenyon is the right move.
I dont mind keeping Foye/Young at SG, they can get hot but if not we have guys like Bledsoe/Billups to play that position more despite being small.
All this talk has just got me pumped for the offseason and next season.
Re: Official 2012 Offseason Thread
Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 2:17 pm
by og15
Definitely would be nice in theory, but here's my response from earlier as to why it wouldn't be possible.
In terms of the Hawks deal, Marvin is currently more productive than Caron, and Zaza is their best big man over 6'10. Zaza expires after next season and Marvin's contract is the same length as Caron's except that he has a PO for 13/14 that he might not pick up. They actually save more money keeping their own guys because Zaza is an expiring $5.2 million, while Gomes is an expiring $4 million.
It just makes no sense for Atlanta to trade their 6'9 SF with the same contract length and approx same amount who's playing better, and their 6'11 big who expires for two SF's with the same contract situations. They don't gain anything. That's the kind of trade that works when you have a draft pick to add on.
With the not very surprising news that Mo Williams is opting in, off-season plans are a little harder, and he's going to need to be traded. Scoobs suggested for a second round pick to Orlando, but that's not good value, and even then, Orlando isn't under the cap to just take on salary like that.